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dashour
Indonesia
9 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 04 2009 : 10:40:40 PM
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I'm confused.
It seems to me that Yogis today, western AND Indian*, are missing the original point of Yoga philosophy. (*those businessmen "Yogis" who have for several decades now been giving their Western "customers" what they want and expect).
I say this from 35 years of Yoga study, 25 years of living in a Hindu culture, and 30 years study in one of the worlds oldest Western fraternal mystic orders, the RC. I have also been doing Kriya Yoga for over 10 years, which I have modified and changed against my teachers instructions. I do not claim any special powers, status, or illumination, and neither do I feel qualified to teach. But I am qualified to comment.
I share an observation:
There are two types of people in the world. Those who want to be free of Maya and those who do not yet want this. The vast majority of those practicing Yoga today are the former, and yet Yoga's entire purpose was originally designed to help those in the latter.
Neither of these two groups is "better" "higher" or more advanced than the other. I hope the reader will keep this firmly in mind. Which group you are in is purely a matter of personal choice, and each choice has it's limitations and rewards.
Again, the two categories are:
a. Those who want to build a better world of peace, love, light and harmony on Earth. They want to "integrate spirituality with daily life". They do not want to "hide in a cave" and "deny" themselves the opportunity to fully participate in "the evolution of the planet"
I salute the above category of people.
But what about:
b. Those who believe that this is a dream, literally? As beautiful and wonderful the goal of type "a" people may or may not be, they are instead interested in waking up from the dream altogether? For this category, "waking up" is like walking away from a computer terminal where you were previously fully absorbed in playing one of those networked lan games, lost in a computer dream game with other players from around the world.
Just as there is nothing wrong with those in group A, there is nothing wrong with those who get up and cease to participate in a computer LAN game, no? Why, most of you would argue that those computer games are unhealthy and trap the consciousness and limit it's possibilities :) Therefore, if you but see that this world is doing to our consciousness what the computer game is doing to the teenage boy, then perhaps you see that neither is their anything wrong with men and women in group B.
OBSERVATION:
Those in group A seem to always want to argue that "you can have both!"........ as if what they are doing will give them what B is after. This cannot be so, and neither is it desirable!
Why? Consider that those in group B, by definition, are not going to attain what A is after because they are clearly not participating in it, or helping it along. The converse is also true.
To want both A and B would be hypocrisy, and confusing to the soul. Nothing wrong with A, nothing at all. And nothing wrong with choice B. Neither is more spiritual or better a choice than the other. This forum post is NOT a judgment of one way or the other. Those who remain in group A, will certainly have more opportunities for the specific type of learning that comes from losing oneself in an animal environment and organism.
But I strongly suspect that those in group A who argue slogans such as:
"we're doing both!"
"why does it have to be one or the other?"
"I believe that we can integrate everything!"
Are in fact engaging in a self defense mechanism, triggered by their attachments to Maya, and fear of the idea that someday, they might want to give B a try.
You will often hear type A's come up with all sorts of clever arguments as to why B is "old fashioned", "not appropriate for a city dweller", a "path of denial", etc etc. This, to me, is really nothing more than avoidance mechanisms to the true aims of Yoga as Patanjali outlined.
A's will say that a worldly spiritual paradise can be evolved here on Earth. Presumably, the issues of competition for resources and mating partners will have been solved in a spiritually mature, enlightened way that allows for peace and harmony and perfection. Furthermore, A's correctly see that there are certain valuable learning experiences that can only happen while in a physical animal organism, and they want to take advantage of that.
B's will say that such paradise already exists, in our true home in the astral realms and higher. In these worlds, which can be attained by "ceasing to identify with the animal body" we no longer need to compete for resources. There, we no longer need to participate in mother natures "survival of the fittest" laws. To a "B" "A"s are trying to reinvent the wheel - a wheel which already exists and is waiting for us right now, if we can just learn to rid ourselves of the fascination with animal experience. Our predecessor Yogis are already there waiting for us to join them.
For those in group A, Yoga has some very valuable tools that you can borrow and use. But Yoga, in it's purest philosophical and practical form, is and always has been, for those who want path B.
I know this is going to cause many of you, perhaps Yogani himself, to respond with a lengthy defense against this statement. It is not my intention to start an argument about it, but what I say can be easily defended by those who have a solid understanding of the history of Yoga, it's major scriptures and practitioners. Find a member of Shankaras order of Swamis and ask them, to begin with. They are arguably the primary torchbearers of the Yoga tradition in India. I know some of them myself.
In any case, which ever path you take, I wish you luck!
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Edited by - AYPforum on Oct 04 2009 11:35:21 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2009 : 04:37:15 AM
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Hi Dashour
Welcome to the forum 
And thanks for sharing your persepective.
quote:
It seems to me that Yogis today, western AND Indian*, are missing the original point of Yoga philosophy
I am very illiterate when it comes to Yoga philosophy...so please excuse the lack of knowledge  ....but the point of it.......we all exist in it as it, no? It seems here that the realization of our being....being the simultaneous stillness and expression that is NOW...every moment NOW...it is so vast, that just the thought of pressing it into any kind of fixed path...seems just as limiting as pressing it into any kind of personal identity. I will never mentally understand what I am.....and yet....again and again coming to terms with this fact....in the peace that follows this stopping trying to figure it out.......it somehow opens up for there being as many paths as there are forms to express them....
Yet the point is always the same.
quote:
But Yoga, in it's purest philosophical and practical form, is and always has been, for those who want path B.
So....pure philosophy....I am not familiar with what this term means...?
I have wanted - and still experience - wanting both to be free of Maya and not to be free of it......back and forth for many years....deeper and deeper into both......paradoxically both slowly and instantly the gap between the two closes....and what occurs from this....what little that is found...is simply that the want itself is the crucial point. Something....deep inside wants. Whether it wants freedom from or enjoying of....this somehow is outside the point the way it is seen here. For a long time this want was mistakenly thought to be something that needed to be filled...either from outside or inside. But this turned out not to be so. In staying with only the wanting.....in staying still and allowing that...urge or whatever you may call it....to exist without pushing it away....and without acting on it......it mysteriously (I don't understand how it works...but that seems not to matter) dissolves again and again....(and the practice of Deep Meditation cultivated contact with...and melting into...that into which it could dissolve)...and in the space opening up in this "death"......again and again nothing is wanted....everything is full though it is empty......and so the point seems to be both infinitely small and yet infinitely vast. The mind here doesn't understand it. But.......after years of a lot of resistance to even concider that this vast point is what I am...what we all are.....somehow it is more and more evident that it is this loving emptifullness that is the truth of what I am. And this somehow includes the wanting....and therefore does not exclude the world.
So the want and the point is experienced as the same. The want actually comes from - and is an expression of - the point
The want and the point...these two....it seems here that this is the very evolving itself. Out of whatever safe zone there is....nowhere to land safely for the mind more than the exact landing point of each moment. Which is empty of becoming. And since the moment is the same openness for every form that is here at any given time.....then here....any path seems to be as valid as no path at all.....
If I am expressing through all forms....then how can any form be renounced as "just" a dream......I am it even though I am not what it seems...this is the perspective here now.......
And wanting still continues from openness.....it is just that the point is vaster and vaster.....and the wanting more and more loving....being one single world body wanting both freedom from - and enjoying of - itself.
It is only when I think I know that the confusion sticks.
Otherwise...confusion too can come and go....as it happens so anyway.
Being open...instead of rememebering which path to stick to....is somehow peaceful......even though everything could be different tomorrow 
Thanks again for sharing your experience with us.
Hope you will post again
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kingseeker
Uruguay
6 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2009 : 05:05:33 AM
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after all the practices you mentioned you have done , starting a letter with the words"i am confused" do not seem consistant with your practices, you should not be after 30 years!!! and then again after 30n years the distinctions and separation in two groups, are only in your mind, you should know by now, there is only One : The One Eternal.... Everlasting....
if i was you i woud not worry so much about what the rest of the world is doing, i beleive that in oue own way we are all doinf the same thing, some are moving faster and some slower, it does not matter we are all ONE
om kriya babaji namah om, |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2009 : 08:14:28 AM
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Welcome to the forums Dashour,
Kingseeker i don't think Dashour is saying he is confused in general. I think he is saying that he is confused about a particular issue and how people handle it.
I don't think yoga brings us to a state where we never again experience emotions that might be considered weak or negative. at least I wouldn't want to be that kind of person. I would prefer to occasionally experience all emotions, recognize what they are, express them to other people and feel them go away. I think that's normal.
I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with this, saying emotions are the ego and maya and should be eradicated. Not me.
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sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2009 : 08:35:48 AM
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I don't believe there are only two types of people in the world.
Those who want maya to end and those that don't.
is it that simple?
and as far as the business men....is it such a negative thing to want to make an income in order to survive?
What is the RC?
Maybe I would like to be free of maya-
but am not discipled to practise yoga.
and can you only free yourself of maya thru yoga?
maybe it is ok to understand b
and understand a---or try to.
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dashour
Indonesia
9 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2009 : 10:22:15 AM
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Etherfish, kingseeker, katrine are intelligent, insightful thinkers. Thank you. I just have time at the moment to respond to the most recent post, but everything that has been written was quite good, thank you all.
Sage said:
>"I don't believe there are only two types of people in the world.
>Those who want maya to end and those that don't. Is it that simple?"
Yes, it is, as long as you understand that I was simplifying things to make a point. Certainly there are about 6 billion "different" types of humans on the planet, at last count. :)
>and as far as the business men....is it such a negative thing to >want to make an income in order to survive?
Of course not. My statement was "businessmen Yogis give the western customer what they want", not that they should not be doing that. Think about the implications of that statement though.
Yoga makes it clear that there is no such thing as "good" or "evil" except in a relative, individual sense. It IS true that traditionally Yoga is not traded for financial payment, and none of my teachers of Yoga have ever asked me for any financial renumeration. Neither would I, no matter how destitute I was, be willing to sell whatever help I could be to another in learning about Yoga. I could be starving and I would not accept one rupee, or euro, for teaching another the little I might know about Yoga that they did not yet know.
But The above is not the same thing as saying that others doing such is "wrong". I did not and never would say that.
But I do ask you to consider the following: The reason I would not ever charge, and the reason traditionally this is not done, is that once it becomes an item of trade, even by donation, then the samskaras, fears, anxieties of needing to make a living from Yoga become inextricably wrapped up in the teaching, and inevitably color and influence such. (I refer you again to my original statement about giving the customer what they want. If you don't do this, you lose your customers!)
Traditionally, Yogis do not want to take that risk, and neither would I. Anybody with a consciousness so pure that this would not happen to them, would not need money in the first place. Is this coloring and compromising, then, to be considered wrong? Of course not. In a karmic sense, better to be teaching Yoga for a living than many other professions, no?
>What is the RC?
Refers to the Rosicrucian Order.
A.M.O.R.C. (Antique Mysticusque Ordo Rosæ Crucis) a non-profit mystic fraternity, been around for very long time. You can read some half truths about them in any good encyclopedia, and in some well meaning but misinformed New Age and esoteric type books, but still enough to get a rough idea.
>Maybe I would like to be free of maya-
>but am not discipled to practise yoga.
>and can you only free yourself of maya thru yoga?
Golly, I sure hope not! Yoga is just an outer packaging. It is covered in thick layers of culture which is at once it's allure and also it's trap. Take the bread and leave the wrapper.
Love to all
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sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2009 : 11:28:28 AM
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*those businessmen "Yogis" who have for several decades now been giving their Western "customers" what they want and expect).
I have no frame of reference really for what has been going down with these Yogi businessmen and their customers.
I haven't hung out in spritual community other than wetting my own feet a bit and nothing seems to differ with how it is any any other group.
I have yet to study yoga for 35 years
yet to live anytime in the hindu culture
and no study in the RC.
no kriya yoga.
why don't I just give you what you really want and you don't have to be teacher....why not let this customer give the yogi what he wants?
so this morning we have gone from A to B and now money....
and what about this qualification to comment?
I am certainly not qualified to comment, however I feel that I would like to express my thoughts so maybe I can learn something greater than what I know now.do I have to be qualified to comment?
I would consider myself one who would like to be free of suffering and I will substitute maya for that since that is your background understanding. And where I learn best does not look like I pick up a book and read from page one until the end, then go to the next book, and read from page one until the end.apparently my learning has ended up like a punch in the nose, and that is certainly not what I have been wanting. don't give people what they want if you don't want, too.
I am standing right at the door dashour-in a metaphorical way.
don't shut me out because I may not agree with you on anything.
This forum strikes me as individuals who like to claim they want no maya-but are still wanting away from the one who may not understand or lack the knowledge and practise.
I will say that it is very nice to have a forum which I do not pay for and there is plenty of information to gather knowledge from freely. And I would like to express myself just as I do and not meaning to be rough around the edges, and hurt someone.
ridding our selves of fascination of the animal experience?
what are you even remotely talking about?
"therfish, kingseeker, katrine are intelligent, insightful thinkers. Thank you. I just have time at the moment to respond to the most recent post, but everything that has been written was quite good, thank you all."
I also find that opening statement offensive.give johnnythe cookie because he is the more insightful thinker-the higher eschelon.
now I am going to go be irritated for a few minutes- and then realize I know not what is really being talked about here- and aggrevated about everything-
and then maybe just relax in the sunshine and let go and keep letting her out of the corner. |
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dashour
Indonesia
9 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2009 : 8:35:40 PM
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Hello Sage!
>I am certainly not qualified to comment, however I feel that I would >like to express my thoughts so maybe I can learn something greater than >what I know now.do I have to be qualified to comment?
sage, certainly you are qualified to comment on many things - everything you have done with your life! I would imagine that there are numerous subjects of which you know a great deal more than I, for example, no? Your hobbies, interests, occupation, schooling, etc. Whatever they may be, they're just as valuable to "God" (universe, et al) as anything I have have ever done or learned. Surely there are forums out there on the net that you could be of great benefit to, by sharing what you know.
>This forum strikes me as individuals who like to claim they want no >maya-but are still wanting away from the one who may not understand >or lack the knowledge and practise.
Really? I'm new here. I'm sorry to hear that. I think you mean that your not getting much help from them? If so, I do know that Yogani has written some pretty good and easy to understand books you can read, and although they are labeled "advanced Yoga practices" a beginner in Yoga can do them too. I was a beginner when I started doing all the "advanced" stuff. This term "advanced" is somewhat of a misnomer, IMHO. It seems that what this means to the forum is "All those other Yoga practices that are not postures". Lol! A great many Yogis in India don't even do any Asanas at all. But they DO do the practices that you can read about here, and in Yogani's books.
>ridding our selves of fascination of the animal experience?
>what are you even remotely talking about?
I'm talking about This:
Imagine that when you die someday, the following happens:
You find yourself saying "woah! Ohhhhhh my God! I'm dead! But, But............wow! I'm still AWARE of myself! Yippie! It feels like I just woke up! And look! I'm no longer in a physical body anymore! What was that, that happened to me for the last 85 years, from which I have just awoken? Holy cow, that whole time, I was so identifying myself with being a human being that I had lost almost all awareness of myself apart from being a physical body!"
In this hypothetical after death state I just described, you do not have a physical body anymore by definition.
Yet, your still conscious.
Clearly, in this "dead" state, you can now reasonably conclude that you are not a body at all, and never were, except as a guest of such. You were using a body like you would get into a taxi. And that the whole time you were in one, you were at best only dimly aware of that.
After all, most of your time was spent fulfilling and enjoying the sensual needs and desires of a physical body. But now, you no longer have a body to use and enjoy in that way. You come to see that you had gone to sleep, lost in the dream experience of being an animal. The homo sapien IS a species of animal.
Is this good, or bad?
According to Yoga it is neither. Were you happy with your dream of being a "human being"? In your new found after death state, do you find that you miss a physical body so much that you want to come back to Earth and do it again? If so, then you could reasonably be described as being "fascinated with the animal experience" and hopefully you will get a chance to do so, concurrent with what you feel you still need to "learn" from such. This is not a matter of ethics, morality, right and wrong, good or bad - it is purely a matter of personal choice.
But there IS an idea, held by Yogis and certain other spiritual paths, that perhaps it would be an extraordinarily rewarding thing if we could free ourselves from that fascination by the slow, deliberate practice of letting go of it. After all, survival after death is proof positive that we do not need a physical body to continue being aware of the universe, so perhaps this means that there are other, even more rewarding things we could do with our consciousness.
For a Yogi, THIS idea - the desire to be "free" of all this - is just as valid as choosing to continue with the fascination of Maya. Yogis choose this path not because they feel superior than others, or from religious guilt trips, or because they think it is a "higher" or "more spiritual" thing to do, but out of nothing more complicated than mere curiosity.
Do you share that curiosity? The desire do know what would happen if you could just ween your consciousness from being absorbed and attached to worldly, "third dimensional" experiences? If so, you would make a good Yogi.
The fact that us Yogis struggle with this endeavor, slip, go backwards, and generally make a mess of it sometimes, including myself, Yogani, and everybody on the forum, does not mean that the premise is wrong.
If you don't share this curiosity though, then I'm quite sure that "God", whatever that means to you, still loves you, and that your being just as "spiritual" in your choice as a Yogi, a frog, or the CEO of a Wall St Bank is in theirs. If this is the case, You can still benefit from Yoga by doing some of the techniques, such as Asanas, meditation, etc., as it will give you a greater peace of mind and increased intuitive abilities that will help you with your maya fun.
>I also find that opening statement offensive.give johnnythe cookie >because he is the more insightful thinker-the higher eschelon.
Consider the alternative explanation, which is that I so much appreciated what you wrote that I wanted to respond personally to it, right away.
Eventually, no matter how wonderful your new "after death" experience is, you may start to miss that physical realm. Physical Sex, food, sensation, etc. You may
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RyanO
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2009 : 01:07:48 AM
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Hi dashour, great topic!
I say this obviously because of my own interest in it. My college thesis was titled "A Defense of Radical Dualism in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras." I'll try to briefly explain how it is relevant. I'm going to have to generalize here, so forgive me for not refering to any sources.
The basic idea is that there is historical evidence to show that Patanjali subscribed to Samkhyan metaphysics. You can google this for more info, but in short it is a school of philosophy that strongly stresses the duality of matter and spirit. My reading of the Yoga Sutras confirmed that Patanjali advocated a radical withdrawal from matter into spirit.
The thesis was largely to say that it is difficult to interpret the Yoga Sutras when they are taken out of their metaphysical context. Most commentaries, however, do. This is because the Samkhya school became extant in Ancient India and every remaining school is avowedly non-dualistic.
I examine a number of modern commentaries on the Sutras, notably Isherwood's How to Know God. He admits that Patanjali was a believer in Samkhyan metaphysics, but suggests that this is a minor detail and functionally the work is the same. I disagree, as I think metaphysical context should not be ignored. The 'confusion' you are experiencing is a product of interpreting a work out of context.
So, you're right. The true goal of Yoga, as I see it, would be the 'B' group. Awaken from the illusion of maya (matter) into Spirit. Interestingly, Patanjali uses the word purusha for Spirit, and in the Samkhyan scheme there are many purushas. It is only later schools that teach that purushas (atman) are brahman (universal spirit). It is my view that modern schools of Yoga are not true to the intentions of Patanjali.
At this point, I would like to say that I honor the philosophy of Yoga and admire its adherents, and that my findings are simply that of a humble seeker.
In my examination of reality, I have found Taoist philosophy to be a more complete approach. It recognizes the reality of dualism. The universe likes to play, so it split itself apart. Is the destiny of humanity to eternally abide in Oneness? Seems to me that a more blissful approach would be a continuous fluxuation, or process, of play. Under this duality and the 10,000 things is a Unity, but to ignore the significance/holiness of the split is faulty. Maya is not evil. Maya is the screen from which the lover peers behind. Without the screen, no fun!
So that is my response to your inquiry. I kind of typed off the top of my head, so forgive me for any inconsistencies/errors etc. I'd be interested in what people think about this. |
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yogani
USA
5247 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2009 : 11:00:50 AM
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Hi RyanO, and welcome!
Duality and non-duality really depend on one's point of view in the present. As self-identification with projections of mind are gradually dissolved through practices, the truth with a thousand names and philosophies (or no name at all) becomes known first hand.
We use the structure of Patanjali's eight limbs to some degree here because he did such a fine job of integrating the "levers" of human spiritual transformation. It is a great reference, and jumping off point. But we are not obliged to adhere to his philosophical view, or anyone else's. We are obliged to pursue whatever opens our nervous system to its inherent divine capabilities here and now. Philosophy is not the final arbiter of anything. Direct experience is.
All philosophies and spiritual methods, past and present, have been derived from the human being. In AYP, we look back only enough to keep going forward. Better to be mostly looking out the front windshield than the rear view mirror. There is no substitute for transformative action undertaken today.
Onward!
The guru is in you.
PS: "A" becomes "B," and then becomes "A" again, so all can become "B," and so on. It is the natural flow of divine love. No mental structure can contain it, or comprehend it. Yet, we are that eternal becoming. 
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2009 : 11:38:33 AM
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With a non-dual approach, isn't there really no difference between dual and non-dual?
I love the title of that college thesis. So cool! |
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RyanO
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2009 : 3:29:11 PM
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Hi Yogani, thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I very much agree with your experience oriented approach. I like practical applications and practices because they allow one to experience truth for themselves instead of playing head games. I also agree with your forward looking outlook. I value the freedom that comes from not being steeped in traditionalist dogma.
My difficulty has a lot to do with the language of common spiritual teachings regarding the nature of the ego and the body. Most Buddhist and Yoga schools approach the ego in negative terms, either that it has to be annihilated or subverted in some way. I prefer to speak about transformation. It is true that we often have conflicting desires, but I believe that ultimately every aspect of our being desires harmony.
So instead of treating the ego as an enemy or imposter, we treat it as a loving parent would to an innocent child, and gently guide it in the process of maturation. Thus we practice total unconditional self-acceptance.
The same idea goes for approaches to the body, matter, sexuality, etc.
I mention philosophical differences because I do think they guide our practice. If one begins with negative feelings towards one small ego or body, it will affect their experience. If one thinks that matter is essentially unreal or maya, it will inform their interpretation of their meditative experience.
But I do like the idea that philosophy is human created, and that the world cannot be explained by concepts. J. Krishnamurti has been very influential to me in this regard. It's just that as humans, I think concepts are necessary for us to communicate and understand reality. And certain concepts are truer descriptions of reality than others.
I also do not mean to say that every follower of Yoga has to subscribe to Patanjali's philosophy. But I do think it is informative and could possibly shed light on dashour's dilemma.
Thanks!
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yogani
USA
5247 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2009 : 5:46:10 PM
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Hi RyanO:
Thank you. I think you have a healthy way of looking at it. For most of us, a gradual merging of small self with big Self is preferred over the executioner's ax. Many more will be interested in that.
The practices we work with in AYP are for that gradual ripening. Then the fruit falls off the tree in due course. Not that everything is perfect, but we seem to be heading in the right direction, with improvements in methodology being incorporated as we find them. For some, the path may lead to exploring methods outside the field of yoga, which is okay. Everyone is a little different in their process of purification and opening. We are interested in practical results for the most people. The most important scripture resides within each of us, in stillness.
The guru is in you.
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RyanO
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2009 : 7:38:37 PM
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| Cool thanks yogani. I gotta say, I admire your devotion to your practice and appreciate your work in putting this site together. It's really cool. Would've saved me a lot of time as a searching teenager :) |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2009 : 10:38:45 PM
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Hahahaha...
Dashour, Not until one gives up trying to pick up nirvana and reject samsara does enlightenment become a real experience.
Both A and B are dead wrong. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2009 : 12:54:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lacinato
With a non-dual approach, isn't there really no difference between dual and non-dual?
In the sense that they are both seen as false. Duality and non-duality are just concepts. The experience/reality that the word "non-dual" points to has no opposition. It's all there is. There is no conflict in reality. |
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2009 : 4:51:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RyanO
I prefer to speak about transformation. It is true that we often have conflicting desires, but I believe that ultimately every aspect of our being desires harmony.
So instead of treating the ego as an enemy or imposter, we treat it as a loving parent would to an innocent child, and gently guide it in the process of maturation. Thus we practice total unconditional self-acceptance.
I really like this! Seeing the ego as an enemy just makes me feel more divided, working with it as a loyal but misguided pet (just one analogy I have heard) with love feels so much better. |
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dashour
Indonesia
9 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2009 : 10:30:56 AM
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Yogani, you said:
"PS: "A" becomes "B," and then becomes "A" again, so all can become "B," and so on. It is the natural flow of divine love. No mental structure can contain it, or comprehend it. Yet, we are that eternal becoming."
You write beautiful words: flowery statements about how everything's all ok that are certainly true, (everything is ok) but function as an avoidance mechanism for the body to use rather than a tool for real freedom. This is typical of what the west in general has done to Yoga.
It is precisely this attitude towards Yoga that allows everybody an excuse to miss the renunciate point of it. Nobody wants to hear that word in Yoga today, so we have invented all sorts of clever reasons why it's not valid or necessary, thus placating our deepest fear - losing our attachments to sensual pleasures - with feel good spiritual sophistry. Nothing at all wrong with doing that, but it's not Yoga.
There is a reason why, despite how wonderful the sense pleasures are, and how deeply satisfying "spiritual sex" is, and other pleasures, that Yoga aims to end our identification with these addictions.
There's nothing wrong or mistaken about the traditional aims and goals of Yoga, however much we wish there was.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2009 : 10:59:18 AM
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I don't think renunciation is what the west is ignoring in yoga. Most of the west emphasizes asanas over meditation, and that is the real mistake, even though asanas can be powerful.
Renunciation is not necessary if you meditate twice a day as prescribed at AYP (read "Easy Lessons in Ecstatic Living", "Deep Meditation", and/or "Main Lessons" online; links to all of these are on this page). The eight limbs of yoga are different paths to the same goal. It is not necessary to practice them all.
Finding your inner silence is the most important aspect of yoga. This can be approached through any or all the eight limbs of yoga, but meditation is by far the most effective for most people.
A few people prefer the renunciate path, and fewer still are able to actually follow that path.
But even those few will benefit from deep meditation.
The vast majority of people do not wish to make major changes in their life for the sake of spirituality, and for them even meditating twice a day is a big effort.
The good news is that if they make that change to dedicate a few minutes a day to meditation over a period of time, their entire life will change for the better and they will be on the path to enlightenment.
There is no need to renounce your former life. As we follow the path of enlightenment, our desires and habits may change, and in some people these changes may resemble a life of renunciation.
But it is much easier and more permanent to LET these changes happen after finding inner silence, rather than forcing them to happen by renunciation.
Why is this true?
Because the path is different for everyone. Renunciation is often initiated by the unenlightened mind, only to create a huge equal and opposite reaction. So the renunciate bounces back and forth, fighting with himself rather than experiencing peace and silence.
It is better to not try and be enlightened, but live your normal life, and find inner silence. Upon finding it, your inner guru will guide you to what is best.
And finding inner silence is easiest when your life is peaceful, from not trying to be something different than you are. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 31 2009 11:05:18 AM |
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dashour
Indonesia
9 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2009 : 02:25:57 AM
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Dear Etherfish:
Renunciation Is It's Own Reward:
One cannot really discuss whether renunciation is "necessary" or "unnecessary". Renunciation is not a "technique" but rather it's own reward. One either wants this state of being and living, or one does not. To discuss whether it is "necessary" or "unnecessary" is like trying to decide whether playing a Chopin nocturne is "necessary" or not.
To a renunciate, there are no spiritual credentials that one gains for being a renunciate. The reward is this, nothing more: The glorious simplicity of not possessing, or wanting to possess.
However:
The trendy "Yoga" thinking of the west nowadays is that we can have all the benefits of non-attachment, without the non-attachment! "I believe we can have both" is the trap. not the solution. This is textbook Maya sophistry.
Many Modern Western Yoga Ideas are Maya Traps:
Maya's tricks (metaphorically) are clever and many, and they are all designed to do one thing: convince us that we can remain attached to our attachments, but at the same time not be attached at all, merely by cultivating the spiritually correct "attitude". This trick works beautifully, until the inevitable day when we lose the object of our attachment, and realize that the pleasure we got from it and our attachment to it was one and the same inseparable thing.
And look what we westerners do then! Instead of trying to cultivate detachment (the very essence of Yoga) or even – God forbid- actually try renouncing the particular desire that gave us the grief - we blame our lack of spiritual maturity and wisdom and strength. We utterly miss what Yoga has been trying to teach us about attachment, and miss the lesson we could have received. Instead, we vow to “do better spiritually next time” and then look for another attachment, very often of the exact same nature as the first one. We have learned nothing, but convince ourselves we have, because we are sure that "next time, I will do it better" !
And thus, we continue to be stuck on the wheel, all the while ignoring the primary, supreme Yoga lesson that would have freed us from it forever.
Nothing wrong at all with that way of living, of course, but repeated experiences of this wheel of attachment and subsequent loss was the original impetus for the development Yoga philosophy in the first place. Centuries of experimentation led Yogis to realize that no, you can't have both, not in the current trendy western meaning of that spiritual "insight".
No Need Of Us To Reinvent The Wheel:
Not wanting to hear or trust this Yogic tenant, Westerners continue to repeat the trials and errors of the original predecessor Yogis who discovered all this in the first place, all the while convincing themselves that they are participating in “Yoga’s evolution” But they fail to remember this: The great Yogis came to their traditional ways after a very long period of trial and error, during which they DID try all the current "celebrate the senses" approach that westerners feel is so progressive and new, but in fact was long ago discarded as a Maya trap.
And, following the scent of this, a handful of Indians, seeing business opportunities, have served up to westerners exactly the type of Gurus they want, adding to the confusion.
Love,
Dashour
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Edited by - dashour on Nov 01 2009 03:28:21 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2009 : 03:26:11 AM
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Well, this isn't AYP you are talking about, but interesting point. I think it is a little oversimplified though; in the "celebrate the senses" concept, in the lumping together
of westerners into a group who "don't get it" and so haven't gained anything from yoga, and also of non-attachment being an important pursuit.
However, I am sure this is all something you have contact with firsthand and so is quite valid in that context.
You are correct in the concepts that celebrating the senses or pursuing spirituality through learning some lesson and trying harder next time are not getting anywhere.
But trying to pursue non-attachment is also an intellectual time waster.
In Yogani's book "Self Inquiry" (also check it in Yoga FAQ online) you will find he writes of the difference between self inquiry which is "relational" and "non-relational". What this is about is that it is necessary to find your inner silence, or the "witness state" through deep meditation before many other concepts in yoga become significant.
Non attachment happens without even trying when you find your inner silence through meditation.
So going about your normal life and meditating twice a day is not some western way of pretending we are doing something we are not. It is a discovery that in this age of increasing spiritual energy there is one thing - meditation - that opens the yoga door for almost everyone today. Once that initial stage is reached there is an understanding of many more advanced concepts that are not much more than word play before that point.
Yogani's concept of AYP is to make yoga accessible to everyone. What used to be so complex that very few got very far and only under the wing of a master, today is being understood by many more people.
It is increasing spiritual energy, simplification of the initial endeavors, and awakening of the masses all at once. |
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dashour
Indonesia
9 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2009 : 03:31:49 AM
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| I will have a look at that book, "Self Inquiry", thank you Etherfish. Sounds well written and insightful. |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2009 : 06:50:40 AM
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aum
years spent unlearning helps to be in the now. cutting away the brahmanical thread helps.
to be in the now is the kriya of being siva, our yogic union.
all good beyond judgment and perfect as in the flow of each circumstance that finds 'a' and 'b' entwined and beyond as the oneness that holds all permutations and that not permutable is being siva, the essence of yoga!:) thus flows clarity.
aum |
Edited by - nandhi on Nov 01 2009 07:41:37 AM |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2010 : 06:22:22 AM
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| in bhagavadgita.arjuna was feeling sorry before the battle.krishna replied him to not to doubt and live his karma,we are all arjunas,yoga is a science to renunciate absolutely,its not well placed in the path of house holders,but is been so expanded and integrated as a remedy for all kind of life,that we forget about what it means to live your spirituality and the incompatibilities with the social life.living in society you get cought in duality and maya constantly, even if you are a paramahansa and run an asharam this service will feed your ego.thats te reason of isolation in himalayas,to not to be involved in wordly affairs and absolutely offer your sadhana to god,in spirituality there is only a dialogue between you and god. |
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porcupine
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2010 : 11:15:08 AM
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you are not allowed to comment, obviously you don't have anything to add.. im sorry.. im a lost soul
we can't do this forever..god follows me.. i don't follow god
because there is no i
and no me
because i am a fool for your love and its beyond the cup now... ITS THE THE AIR. its on the ground
its in slugs
look, no, behold!
you are healed, little ones!
... I
who has missed the point
by succumbing to time
I waver in pools sacred and forever
suspended in time with you
my loved one
yet something is missing
deep within me there is something rising up
something like nothing i've ever felt before
the computer... approaching the computer as a spiritual tool imbued with the forces of nature, a self working weather machine of which we are only a part, as we too fall into the pattern of momentum and decline.
I eat dirt every day.
none of this is healthy.
I know I that I am.
I have to be cleaned, even though I like rolling in the mud
I am feel the mud though
I feel with the mud and thus am one with the entire ecosystem
its rises and falls are mine
it is all neither within me nor it
but somewhere spectactularly between
oh my
I may faint just at the prospect of these
utterances that now befall these keys
hark, twilight be shined in dandelion wine
namaste, om guru yajamahae
aons ago, characters played out space time
nothing was new
everything died
I wept
was there a miracle?
the flowers that come from the ground
the light by which i see
knowing no distinction
am I stung? or is the breadth of enlightenment?
hawty tai nao ranga..
leafins and giraffes... flowers that come from the ground
theres a friend of the flower and a friend of mine
om bhur bhuvasvah, apple oak tree and pine!
Time! Oaskay! make me a ring
no wait a ring is not really a ring, I am in a car, backwards holding in non-duality, the fifth memory of where perhaps nothing arise preserved there was the flower
the flower that smiled upon my tears
the flower that looked upon me so simply
so fully, so clear
flower, wood that you are dear!
Fair and free.. I eat the fruit, that cames from Gaia, some deep down wholesome place, where nature is the reckoner
for I the halfling samurai has risen again!
know me and know nothing
know mind... and know heart
something about the way they built the rooves in that dream never left me, as I saw the red barn walls
come again, here, we sit... a wave, some primitive favors, the stories of old, what magic did unfold there in imaginations eager to roam like a lone glare
immediately I fell in worship, I would never be an adventurer, I was just a normal person, a bit eccentric perhaps, but quite normal.
In fact, I picked up a Y shaped stick off the lawn.
In fact, soon there will be no more letters
and you will be out once more
compadre
Is this you're idea of a good time? This is deep inner peace
I have spoken too soon.. sigh...
awesome..
I've been learning about tai chi, do you feel it would would well in complimentary to herbal medicines?
love, the wanderer |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2010 : 12:47:26 PM
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never forget that samsara is nirvana.
you just need to see reality correctly.
In fact we are all damn lucky to be here as humans |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 17 2010 2:15:59 PM |
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Havn't we all missed the point of Yoga?
