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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 24 2009 : 10:31:18 AM
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I have a feeling that psychic phenomena and the superconscious could actually be the same thing. Both involve some kind of intervention in the normal state of consciousness. Even subconscious is not superconscious, although it seems that entering subconscious states kind of opens a door, so to speak, to the superconscious. But the superconsciousness, or soul (i guess?), doesn't always deem it fitting to intrude.
If i am right about this then there is only one real question left - how to elicit superconscious or psychic experiences?
We talk about expectation. I believe that "God" gives people superconscious experiences to get them to reconsider their relationship with life and start them on their spiritual path. Then God withdraws, so to speak, and people describe having a dark night of the soul. And i believe the purpose of all this is to make us firmly believe that God exists for real. Therefore, having expectations is actually a GOOD thing, so long as they are realistic and faith based. If you eliminate doubt, what you are left with is strong faith and this state is expectation. But here's the twist: you need to surrender completely to God, you need to get rid of your ego, because then you can have expectations and no expectations at the same time!!
Anyway, many many people have said all this before much better than me for thousands of years. I just never understood it before.
Surrender is really important. But there needs to be preparation. Fear has to be overcome. If you have fear that your sense of self will somehow perish, especially in the form of an absence of mental chatter, you could end up with big anxiety problems. So psychological methods are needed. This is, of course, where meditation comes in and why it is so important. However, if you are in a fearful condition, paradoxically you cannot meditate. There needs to be some way of overcoming this fear.
Anxiety is associated with a lack of alpha brainwaves or too much beta brainwave activity. So what you need to do is reduce beta or increase alpha. Apart from brainwave entrainment technology, i do not know of any other ways of doing this. Alcohol, coffee, and similar products are very detrimental in all of this. People who drink too much alcohol lack alpha waves. Recently, a study was done on how to get good sleep and they found that people who drank more than a recommended amount (more than 2 pints of lager) before sleep had poor REM sleep and headaches of a peculiar nature. I would submit that people with "energy headaches" are actually suffering from anxiety symptoms that drinking alcohol mimics. It is easy to test.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2009 : 1:33:40 PM
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Thoughts just get in the way.
Who is the 'I' that has the feeling ? The feeling is a thought and it is witnessed. Who witnesses that thought ? The 'I' what colour, shape, texture is it. Do the inquiry, it's difficult because the mind keeps throwing up an intellectual answer. Give it time, as much as is needed, forever if necessary.
From the Matrix:
Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2009 : 9:40:44 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I have a feeling that psychic phenomena and the superconscious could actually be the same thing. Both involve some kind of intervention in the normal state of consciousness.
Interesting theory, and well considered -- however, psychic phenomena /states and superconsciousness are not the same.
Yogic/mystical traditions have mapped consciousness fairly simply and clearly ... basically, only the words/symbols differ, but their relationship to one another, and the symbolism of each level -- as well as the aspects of consciousness encompassed within each level, are essentially universal.
Example:
The term/symbol AUM.
A = Waking State/Physical Realm
U = Dreaming-Thinking/Psychic Realm
M = Deep Sleep/Formless Realm
. {Bindu} = Superconsciousness-Thoughtless Awareness/Unbound Realm
YHVH symbolizes the same four levels of consciousness.
So do "Earth, Water, Fire & Air" (in that order).
It's a "three in one in all" model that's been known for millenia.
The "ground of being"/thoughtless awareness contains the other three states, and makes them possible (without awareness, your sense of yourself, your perceiving, and the objects of perception, would all be absent).
Thoughtless awareness is also called superconsciousness, as well as samadhi, nirvana, and several other things, I'm sure.
Simple definitions of each level as follows:
Waking State = Perceived by everyone; physical form.
Dreaming-Thinking/Psychic State = Perceived individually; mental form.
Deep Sleep State/Subconcious Not Perceived (includes long-term, stored memories/conditioning)
Superconscious/Samadhi = Thoughtless awareness; conscious of awareness alone, no forms or objects.
In Sahaja Samadhi, diversity of experience happens, but it is experienced as happening within the single field of awareness. It is also experienced that this state is the "ground of being" ... it is what remains when all else is absent; in AYP, we call it Inner Silence; it is True Nature - who and what we each/all are, being, now.
Why/how is it the "ground of being"? Because it is that which can never be an object; formless awareness is the true experiencing subject; the thoughts and feelings of the ego-mind are appearances, objects arising in and from formless awareness -- much like waves from the ocean.
You can take away all objects --- and awareness is.
Without awareness, nothing is.
Sense of self vacillates; awareness always is (deep sleep, or other unconsciousness is not actively aware, true -- but if it were utterly unaware on some level, memory or continuity of any kind would be impossible).
quote:
Even subconscious is not superconscious, although it seems that entering subconscious states kind of opens a door, so to speak, to the superconscious.
You're actually intuiting something quite deep here, and yes: relaxing the mind, as we do in deep meditation, opens conscious experiencing of the more subtle states.
First, we move from experiencing physical plane only phenomenon consciously, to experiencing dream state/thinking state/psychic state phenomenon consciously ... as opposed to unconsciously, as with dreams at night, or being lost in "thinking world" as most are, pre-yoga and pre-meditation, as least.
Then, we move to remaining conscious at levels normally associated with sleep .. no subject/no objects/no perception ... yet conscious ... this is nirvikalpa samadhi, and usually experienced as being so staggeringly wonderful that many think the journey has ended.
It's only just begun.
quote:
If i am right about this then there is only one real question left - how to elicit superconscious or psychic experiences?
A
Y
P
(Seriously, though.)
Superconscious states we call "Inner Silence".
Psychic states we call "Scenery".
AYP, practiced as recommended, does seem to elicit a relatively universal arising of these experiences, to one degree or another (some people experience more scenery or less; everyone experiences inner silence {inner silence either *is* or *isn't* ... there's no "sort of", with inner silence}).
Initially, it's a brief "taste" in between mantra repetitions, then it becomes more pervasive; then it can be experienced as a gap between perceptions; then it's experienced as samadhi/thoughtless awareness ... then, it's experienced as pure bliss consciousness (with the euphoric bliss being dialed up or down, depending upon whether focus of attention is upon the formless self, or self displaying as diversity in day-to-day life).
quote:
We talk about expectation. I believe that "God" gives people superconscious experiences to get them to reconsider their relationship with life and start them on their spiritual path. Then God withdraws, so to speak, and people describe having a dark night of the soul. And i believe the purpose of all this is to make us firmly believe that God exists for real. Therefore, having expectations is actually a GOOD thing, so long as they are realistic and faith based. If you eliminate doubt, what you are left with is strong faith and this state is expectation. But here's the twist: you need to surrender completely to God, you need to get rid of your ego, because then you can have expectations and no expectations at the same time!!
I feel I get what you're saying, Gumpi -- and I essentially agree.
Experiences of superconsciousness give us a "taste" of God/Self/True Nature ... and bhakti/faith fuel our drive to experience more and more of it, until we realize it as our true/original nature.
"Dark Nights of the Soul" do tend to be fairly pervasive, although I don't know that they're universal; basically, they have to do with consciousness (or, rather, semi-consciousness) tending to react in certain, fairly predictable ways, when certain stages on the way to complete realization of true nature are experienced.
Basically, when scenery, including thoughts are ignored, "dark nights" will be a lot shorter, and a lot less intense.
quote:
Anyway, many many people have said all this before much better than me for thousands of years. I just never understood it before.
I respectfully disagree with part of what you've said, per my comments above -- and, I respectfully agree with much of the rest of it, also per my comments above. You've definitely had some key insights, Gumpi.
quote:
Surrender is really important. But there needs to be preparation. Fear has to be overcome. If you have fear that your sense of self will somehow perish, especially in the form of an absence of mental chatter, you could end up with big anxiety problems. So psychological methods are needed. This is, of course, where meditation comes in and why it is so important. However, if you are in a fearful condition, paradoxically you cannot meditate. There needs to be some way of overcoming this fear.
As I quoted in another post, recently (the quote is from Adi Da),
"Brother, let your heart be wounded, and give no mercy to your fear."
If we listening to limited ego-minds thinking ... we pay the price of non-realization.
Ego-mind can always convince you to give into fear ... that's its sole function, albeit a distorted and unnecessary one -- ego-mind, the "thought me", is the fight-or-flight mechanism writ large; the ghost in the machine of the sympathetic nervous system (or rather *from* the sympathetic nervous system).
That's why we recommend meditating like "brushing your teeth" ... something you just do daily, without overthinking it.
If meditation is truly uncomfortable, there may be other issues (with diet, or ingestion of alcohol or other drugs, as you mentioned), which need to be adjusted for the benefits of meditation to be realized (and the ultimate benefit of meditation is, of course: to be realized!)
quote:
Anxiety is associated with a lack of alpha brainwaves or too much beta brainwave activity. So what you need to do is reduce beta or increase alpha. Apart from brainwave entrainment technology, i do not know of any other ways of doing this. Alcohol, coffee, and similar products are very detrimental in all of this. People who drink too much alcohol lack alpha waves. Recently, a study was done on how to get good sleep and they found that people who drank more than a recommended amount (more than 2 pints of lager) before sleep had poor REM sleep and headaches of a peculiar nature. I would submit that people with "energy headaches" are actually suffering from anxiety symptoms that drinking alcohol mimics. It is easy to test.
Fascinating area of contemplation and research to be sure ... I have some comments on this aspect of your post, Gumpi ... but it's of enough potential to the general AYP community, that I'm going to start a new thread (Meditation &Latest Quantum Consciousness Research).
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Aug 24 2009 10:23:50 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2009 : 9:41:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I have a feeling that psychic phenomena and the superconscious could actually be the same thing. Both involve some kind of intervention in the normal state of consciousness. Even subconscious is not superconscious, although it seems that entering subconscious states kind of opens a door, so to speak, to the superconscious. But the superconsciousness, or soul (i guess?), doesn't always deem it fitting to intrude.
If i am right about this then there is only one real question left - how to elicit superconscious or psychic experiences?
How to elicit this, I believe that may be the problem in eliciting it. If you "see the future" or a similar experience, you may get excited, the ego may take ownership of this so now it wants to.................................................................................
do it again!!! So what happened before arrised, without forcing or trying hard, now the "ego" is trying to make it happen rather then come naturally. So, surrender. If it happens, treat it as scenery as yogani perscribes. For the more attachment and trying to bring forth, the more it may ellude.
thats my take on it.
brother neil
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sudo command
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2009 : 12:39:16 AM
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| I think the semantics that are entangled with everything really hinder us from the truth. ive been really thinking about this (paradox lol) and noticed that all these practical concepts and ideas we use in the external world are nothing but perceptions of man. Perceptions that we all accept. these duality's of good-bad, powerful-weak etc are nothing but our imaginations. Every single thing we think we know is based on perception; created by the very limited mind. I dont even think rationale is in the paradigms of the divine--its just beyond our grasp. Which renders the mind pretty much absolutely useless--which is great lol because the truth is only in the now. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2009 : 8:18:05 PM
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Hi Sudo Command & All,
quote:
Originally posted by sudo command
I think the semantics that are entangled with everything really hinder us from the truth.
They can; confusing reality with words is the source of confusing reality.
However, at the level of diversity and form, it's what we've got .. and most especially, it's what we have, toolset-wise .. to help awaken others.
Thought-forms only perceive form ... including words and concepts.
Just as we may put on a nice clothes for a formal occasion ... we "put on" form and language to communicate at this level.
It's only when we confuse words and concepts with reality, and confuse concept of self (based in words) with reality ... that there's a problem.
(There's never been a problem that's not a concept, and that doesn't emanate from confusing form with the totality of reality.)
Having said that, though .... I enthusiastically agree with you.
Confusing words, concepts, semantics and ideas with reality *is* the illusion.
quote:
ive been really thinking about this (paradox lol) and noticed that all these practical concepts and ideas we use in the external world are nothing but perceptions of man.
There a term for truly knowing this, through and through:
Enlightenment.
Yoga (practices) is what helps us know it, through and through.
When there's full knowing, practices may continue ... but because they happen, not because there's any perception of need or lack.
quote:
Perceptions that we all accept. these duality's of good-bad, powerful-weak etc are nothing but our imaginations.
Well, yeah ..... but if you *really* know this, through and through, how in the world are you ever going to suffer??
quote:
Every single thing we think we know is based on perception; created by the very limited mind. I dont even think rationale is in the paradigms of the divine--its just beyond our grasp.
Absolutely true.
That's one of the biggest challenges that yogic practitioners (and those on similar paths) have:
Reluctance to leave rationality at the door, because identification with it runs so very deep -- or, rather, is conceived to run so very deep.
Taking the "swan dive" into thoughtless awareness is the biggest single step (into the Universe of no steps) ... that anyone can ever take.
Rationality ultimately *is* duality ... the thinking mind literally cannot understand that in trying to "figure it out" ... it is *veiling* its own true nature; we don't achieve enlightenment by figuring it out; we don't achieve enlightenment at all ..... when "we" (limited self-concept) release reliance on rationality and step into thoughtless awareness .... unenlightenment ceases by itself ... and enlightenment arises by itself ..... enlightenment is the natural, original state of awareness, prior to being veiled by conceptual quasi-consciousness.
Holding a literal death-grip on thinking and rationality is how enlightenment is prevented (enlightenment being simply one indicative term for awareness living as full knowing of itself, now).
Pratibha ... the Sanskrit term for intuitive awareness ... is the original state of consciousness; limited thinking-mind fantasies are a strange facsimile thereof, which can really never have much to do with the way things actually are, now.
If thinking about something ... concepts, teachings, etc. .... helps point the way to the reality beyond thought ...... this beautiful freedom beyond imagination ..... it's useful.
If it occludes awareness of original awareness beyond thought, it's not of use .... because until true nature is known .... in reality, nothing happens.
This is what I mean when I say, as I often do:
Enlightenment is real.
Enlightenment is all that's real.
Those words are not real.
Kirtanman is not real.
You are not real.
Enlightenment (original, unborn, unformed awareness ... this delicious infinite potentiality filling here-now, as here-now, as the full field of awareness and everything in it) is real; enlightenment is all that is real --- even unenlightenment happens within enlightenment (it couldn't happen without it; just as you have ground under your feet, and presumably a chair or seat under your butt -- unenlightenment/dream life *requires* enlightenment/non-conceptuality to arise and be experienced).
quote:
Which renders the mind pretty much absolutely useless--which is great lol because the truth is only in the now.
If you keep talking like this ... you, and a lot of other people .... are gonna miss out on a lot of drama, pathos, misery, growth, yogic evolution, memories, imaginations ....... do you really want that on your conscience?? <- Whatever *that* may be!!
Here's intending, with-as All I Am .... that you do.
_/\_
Ultimately, even enlightenment is left behind .... and there's just melting into this beautiful moment, now --- as this beautiful moment now.
Is every moment really "all that"?
Well .... yes.
Not as the mind imagines .... just .... actually.
The worst enlightened moments are better than the best unenlightened moments.
But only infinitely.
There's no "enlightenment" to get, in reality -- there's only the releasing of unenlightenment.
And .... enlightenment is real.
Enlightenment is all that's real.
How can you know this for sure?
Drop all concepts about it, and become it -- now.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is --- And Heart Feels A LOT LIKE *THIS*,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Aug 25 2009 8:58:22 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2009 : 9:55:36 PM
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| Everyone is already psychic; doubt gets in the way. |
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sudo command
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2009 : 2:17:47 PM
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| Yup; the practices themselves tend to confuse people; we are so used to learning things for the sake of doing them "well". These yoga practices are to drop the notions. Its amazing how deep it goes and how under rated the real truth is. Its satisfying to know that theres nothing to know. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2009 : 5:32:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sudo command
I think the semantics that are entangled with everything really hinder us from the truth. ive been really thinking about this (paradox lol) and noticed that all these practical concepts and ideas we use in the external world are nothing but perceptions of man. Perceptions that we all accept. these duality's of good-bad, powerful-weak etc are nothing but our imaginations. Every single thing we think we know is based on perception; created by the very limited mind. I dont even think rationale is in the paradigms of the divine--its just beyond our grasp. Which renders the mind pretty much absolutely useless--which is great lol because the truth is only in the now.
Maybe not so much that mind is useless, but that grasping a perpetuation of energetic expression of similar thought forms seem to cloud realizing the ungraspable expansiveness of mind. Like any 'thing' else mind is not a separate thing, and thoughts appear to be expressions of or in mind. |
Edited by - Balance on Aug 26 2009 5:40:12 PM |
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Superconscious and psychic
