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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 27 2009 : 11:09:54 PM
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The Cakrasamvara Tantra
by
David B. Gray
Authentic ancient teachings, not modern neotantra |
Edited by - AYPforum on Jul 28 2009 12:55:53 AM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 12:55:53 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 11:41:17 AM
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Basically this involves ritual consumption of mixed semen and uterine blood after ejaculating into a menstrating women.
I am not making this up. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 1:20:58 PM
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I think the goal of this and body mandala practice is to ackowledge there is goddess inside of the man. This is mentioned in the book, but I wish they went more into detail on this point.
I think this has to do with Carl Jung's anima |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 1:28:47 PM
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hi alwayson, of course to each his own choice of sailing but in my humble opinion i think that this is as far from sexual as it can be and i feel the same disgust i felt when i saw an aghori(a very interesting tantric sect) eat human flesh it's just too much.
kindest regards,
Ananda
p.s: i don't condemn such practices i believe in free will. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 3:10:20 PM
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I am not advocating it either.
But is it an OLD practice. And it seems to be one of the first sexual tantric practices. The extended orgasm stuff came much later. |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 3:28:35 PM
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Isn't this a Kaula practice from the early tantras? I believe I've read something about it in conjunction with the worship of the 64 Yoginis.
Yes - sexual tantric practice was physical/spiritual alchemy. It wasn't intended to have any intersection with common or garden worldly pleasure. Having said that, I could think of many worse things to do. Nothing to be scared of with menstrual blood...
Meanwhile I'll check out the book - thanks.
gri |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 3:47:23 PM
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It actually gets worse...
you eat feces too |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 28 2009 3:49:18 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 02:03:54 AM
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dear alwayson from your description these seem like aghori practices, and they all have their roots in the kaula tantric practices as brother gri said.
i've only read about this stuff in detail in the aghor literature.
take a look at this topic: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....Terms=aghori |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 10:57:25 AM
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The modern inheritors of these traditions, in part, are the Bauls of Bengal. This is a good article on them: http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooq...ol_baul.html.
Am I the only one who sees a rather fine conceptual line dividing amaroli from ritual poo eating, btw?
Emaho!
gri |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 8:32:27 PM
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What is the difference between Aghoris and Kapalikas?
The book I cited above, is about how buddhists adopted Kapalika practice. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 07:02:53 AM
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the aghoris have their origin from the kapalikas, and the aghori sects seem to have taken the tantra practiced by the kapalikas more and more into intense left hand path sadhanas.
for example a lot of the kapalikas don't practice cannibalism like aghoris do.
p.s: i am not an expert on the subject, this is just stuff i've read here and there.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 9:54:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
Isn't this a Kaula practice from the early tantras? I believe I've read something about it in conjunction with the worship of the 64 Yoginis.
Yes - sexual tantric practice was physical/spiritual alchemy.
gri
Hi Gri & All,
In Kashmir Shaivism, this practice (the sharing of sexual fluids between tantric sexual partners) is known as "fluid gnosis", and is actually covered in detail by Abhinavagupta in the Tantraloka.
Every tradition which includes sexual practices, including the ultra-secret ones (well, they're not that secret, any more ....... "Google is our friend" .... ) from Western alchemic, gnostic, kabbalistic and hermetic traditions ... make use of the sharing of sexual fluids (either "regular" or "menstrual").
It seems to be similar to amaroli, in the sense that there's something about the biochemistry of it which supports awakening/realization -- though it may be important to note -- this is given as a practice for advanced practitioners, so as with certain other practices, beginning practitioners may not notice/have a tangible benefit.
As with amaroli, the cultural prejudices and squeamishness are ours to lose (why negate a valid yogic practice for those reasons alone? <- And I'm not referring to anyone in particular ... this is a rhetorical question).
Eating feces, as far as I know, is quite different - though still considered a valid tantric practice:
That is purely about keeping the mind steady, and not judging the feces, or ingesting thereof; it is a practice in keeping awareness and identity with all that is steady ... while transcending one of the strongest cultural/natural taboos.
Must be a powerful practice.
Happily, doesn't appear to be a required one.
(Conditioning doesn't need to be tested; it just needs to be known as conditioning.)
Sharing the sexual fluids, ritual intercourse, etc. was used in this manner, too .... but that's not all it was for .... by a long shot.
There's a reason that all traditions with sexual practices make use of both (sexual practices; fluid sharing) -- they work, and there's value, yogic results-wise .... though there's no value from either the intercourse or the fluid sharing which is not available via other means; as with all yogic practices, they're tools.
As with all practices, especially those that are sexually-related .... "fluid gnosis" and ritual intercourse have both been subject to a lot of egoic contemplation, distortion and manipulation.
However, sexual fluid-sharing practices have also been utilized (again, as amaroli has been, and again, as other tantric sexual practices have been) by various yogic/mystical/tantric schools, all over the world, and throughout history, as practices which can be used to facilitate realization.
There's even information on the Web about early Christians making use of this practice - and celebrating the eucharist (the "body and blood" of Christ), with sexual fluids, as part of group/kula sexual worship rites.
This celebration was, unsurprisingly, condemned as heresy by the early church fathers.
Hope this helps clarify, a bit.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 30 2009 10:16:50 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 02:35:30 AM
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thk you for the wonderful add on K-man, as far as i know the exchange of sexual fluids we're talking about here is called vajroli in the tantric systems and i've never seen the word gnosis ever in tantra but still i am amazed at your wealth of info thks for sharing.
is this practice called fluid gnosis in the tantraloka as well?
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 05:46:20 AM
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 (sorry!) |
Edited by - christiane on Jul 31 2009 07:35:05 AM |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 08:42:33 AM
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Menstrual blood has been a sacred substance since the earliest times. You don't need to look any further than all the taboos that still surround it today...
It's very important in the Tibetan Tantric worldview as well (check out the story of Yeshe Tsogyal and her direct transmission from Vajrayogini).
quote:
As with amaroli, the cultural prejudices and squeamishness are ours to lose (why negate a valid yogic practice for those reasons alone? <- And I'm not referring to anyone in particular ... this is a rhetorical question).
That's the thing about Tantric practice: the things that make sense to you just... make sense to you.
Peace, my flowers! (actually I just remembered that in the Tantras, a woman's 'flowers' refer to her menstrual blood, so...)
gri
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 11:14:02 AM
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here in the middle east brother gri that holy blood you're speaking of is used in the dark arts.
it's true that following the non dual path makes us see the one in the many and vice versa but there is ignorance and there is right knowledge and if a tantric text or a tantric yogi says smthg(s).. that doesn't make them right and a lot of the tantric practices are along the lines of the dark arts.
A |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 3:45:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
thk you for the wonderful add on K-man, as far as i know the exchange of sexual fluids we're talking about here is called vajroli in the tantric systems and i've never seen the word gnosis ever in tantra but still i am amazed at your wealth of info thks for sharing.
is this practice called fluid gnosis in the tantraloka as well?
Hi Ananda & All,
Ananda - thanks for the kind words; glad the info was helpful/interesting.
Vajroli is the taking in of the shared sexual fluids via urethral suction by the male; women absorb the shared fluids naturally, so don't need a separate practice to ingest/retain the shared fluids.
'Fluid Gnosis" is specifically the oral ingestion of the shared fluids, and in certain traditions, specifically the shared fluids including menstrual blood -- though I don't recall if the Tantraloka specifically makes that distinction, or whether it just refers to sharing sexual fluids, without further elaboration, as part of the Kaula sexual rites, as described in Chapter 29 of the Tantraloka.
I *think* that's actually where I saw the term "fluid gnosis" the first time: there's only one English translation of a small portion of the Tantraloka (Chapter 29) ... and I believe "fluid gnosis" is how the Sanskrit was translated (so probably jnanadravya or jnanadravyam).
Here's a link to the book:
Abhinavagupta: The Kula Ritual.
It's amazing -- though *highly* technical, vis a vis the deep symbolism of every facet of the ritual: the geometries of the mandalas, the symbolism of the deities and directions, the interactions between sexual partners (which is much more about the ritualism/symbolism than about tantric practices, per se -- the kula ritual is for full, awakened members of a kula, not those whose "awareness is contracted" <- according to Abhinavagupta).
One of the book's more interesting aspects is: it's written by a Catholic priest.
Yes, really.
Brief Bio for Father John R. Dupuche.
He's a very interesting guy, and doing a lot to showcase the inherent harmony which can be found in the symbolism and practices of all spiritual systems.
Excerpt From Rev. Dr. John R. Dupuche's Bio:
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During a year‚s sabbatical in the California, Italy and India and with the advice of Dom Bede Griffiths osb and Dom Thomas Matus osb he came in contact with ŒKashmir Shaivism‚, a branch of Indian thought that is attracting a lot of attention at the moment..
After some years in parish ministry and with advice from Prof. Alexis Sanderson of Oxford he completed a doctorate in Sanskrit with a translation and commentary on Chapter 29 of the Tantraloka by Abhinavagupta, which describes the Kula ritual, an extreme tantric ritual. This was published in 2003 by Motilal Banarsidass and launched by Bishop Prowse at ACU on 18 May 2004..
He is Chair of the Catholic Interfaith Committee of the Archdiocese of Melbourne and much engaged in interreligious relations. He is particularly interested in the interface between Christianity and Kashmir Shaivism. He has recently presented for publication a book on mantra meditation which draws together the teaching of Christianity and Kashmir Shaivism on the mantra. He writes papers and conducts retreats in addition to his normal parish duties. He is an Honorary Research Associate at the Centre for Studies in Religion and Theology at Monash University.
He has recently established an interfaith household together with Swami Sannyasananda, a yogi of the Satyananda lineage; and the Venerable Lobsang Tendar, a Buddhist Gyuto monk from Tibet / Dharamsala. He travels to India each year, particularly to Bhubaneshwar in Orissa State where he has built a house.
**
(Seems I'm not the only one interested in the "interface between Christianity and Kashmir Shaivism". )
The book is very well-done, but is not light-reading .... I've got more stamina for heavy, ultra-detailed "Sanskritical thinking" than anyone I know ... and I almost couldn't get through it.
It's got more in common with a geometry textbook than anything most of us would associate with yoga or tantra -- though it does show A. How sophisticated the science and symbolism of tantric yoga/Kashmir Shaivism can be, and B. the value of embedding certain symbolism and practices into consciousness, as a means to full and permanent realization. <- non-dual (i.e. Trika, Kaula) Kashmir Shaiva gurus in general, and Abhinavagupta in particular, were way beyond sophisticated, when it comes to understanding of how the mind operates, and how to awaken it from dream-thought, fully and permanently.
In fact, I'll go as far as to say that their understanding exceeds that of so-called modern psychology and psychiatry.
By a LOT.
I also referenced some of the egoic distortions of sexual/fluid practices in my last post, in a very general way (my comment was intended to be inclusive of the "dark arts", so-called "sex magick", and certain facets/approaches within neo-tantra). And when I say "egoic", I don't mean it as an insult; I just mean it literally.
If there's an idea of a separate me who thinks they will gain something via certain practices --- that's egoic (including the "dark arts" of gaining by hurting or cursing someone ... which is as distorted/egoic as it gets, obviously).
The tantric practices we're discussing here were originally and purely yogic -- about realizing and/or embedding/making permanent, realization.
Hope this helps, too.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 31 2009 4:44:49 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 4:21:34 PM
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 this helped a lot, i was just thinking yesterday why the heck does someone like the k-man stop writing in the forums..
your writings are both beautiful and insightful, thk you for taking the time to share.
much love,
Ananda |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 5:04:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
this helped a lot, i was just thinking yesterday why the heck does someone like the k-man stop writing in the forums..
your writings are both beautiful and insightful, thk you for taking the time to share.
much love,
Ananda
Hey Ananda,
Thanks very much - your kind words are sincerely appreciated; much love to you, too --- all love to all, actually -- love is who/what we are, and what we're here to be/do/know!
As far as the stopping writing --- anyone's guess, my friend --- including my "own".
As In: I really don't know; expansion-contraction happens, and sometimes a bit of momentum kicks in -- not posting for a little while can turn into "maybe I'll post again" -- which I don't recommend, unless intuition indicates otherwise; staying connected with one's spiritual community is very important .... (Buddha, Dharma, *Sangha* --- in any language).
But, hey .... there doesn't appear to be "stopping writing" now ... and it feels great to be connected/engaged .... better than ever, actually, by a lot!
Community is important for the connecting, the giving-sharing-getting, the loving, the mutual uplifting .... it's a big part of the *living* of any practice results -- as well as the *creating* of the practice results -- there's a very real power to the consciousness and loving-creating of spiritual community --- community --- communion --- are a LOT more real than the concept of "individuality".
Which, if anything (circling back, kinda sorta, to our topic) is the essence of what Tantra ("Big T" Tantra; the philosophy/map, not the sexual practices alone) teaches:
It's all about conscious unity, knowing-living the oneness, as reality.
Saktichakrasamdhane Visvasamharah
"When the wheel of energies unites, the [conceptual] universe dissolves."
Shiva Sutras, 1.6
The only barriers to oneness are the barriers conceived in limited mind.
When those barriers fall away, hey - unity!
How do we drop those barriers?
By uniting the wheel of energies.
How do we do this?
By dropping the barriers, and creating the unity, now.
Cyclically; eternally; beautifully.
Really.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 03:36:38 AM
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| AUM |
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contemplative
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2009 : 4:14:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
AUM
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This is THE book on sexual tantra
