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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 2:07:50 PM
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Since there are a handful of people on this forum who are clipping their frenums, still pre-kechari, I thought I’d find out if there has been any progress. Melissa - you’re the first to come to mind - how’s it going? It’s sometimes helpful to hear about others’ experiences---here, then, is my frenum-removal report:
The cuticle cutters worked very well in the beginning, and for a while I was cutting nearly every day. I don’t necessarily recommend this, btw, as I don’t think the gonzo approach put me that much ahead of the game, altho it did satisfy my bhakti at the time. What I didn’t realize then was that the outer frenum - the ridge that extends toward the bottom front teeth - is an easy, clean, relatively painless cut. So it’s not surprising that I was able to swag through that, but it’s a different story once you get to the base of the tongue. Much more pain, considerable blood, zero bhakti. The clippers were not the right tool for the job, as they made a mess of things, and I was left with an assortment of annoying skin flaps under my tongue.
I decided to try David’s tooled talavya approach, as he obviously had given the whole thing a lot of thought and seemed to know what he was talking about. Once you reach the base of the tongue, I found that this is the easiest and cleanest method for cutting away the heartier portion of the frenum. I make sideways cuts across the frenum with the sharpened screwdriver, which creates a clean, wide cut with little effort. It’s pretty easy, the only unfortunate thing being the scraping sensation of steel grinding away at flesh. For me it’s pretty awful, but a whole lot better than trying to lacerate a big chunk of flesh with the clippers. I take as many back-and-forth swipes as I can stand, maybe 15-20, which cuts away the outer flesh and exposes the fine, almost invisible fibers at the base. At this point the t.talavya technique stopped working for me, as the head of the screwdriver just slides over the fibers, making it impossible to slice thru them. (David - if I’m doing something wrong here, plz let me know. But I think I have the set-up right). So that’s when I grab the clippers and stick them into the bloody hole that I’ve created, and take some smaller snips in there (at this point I’m only snipping the thin fibers in the tongue - no flesh). This part of the process is no fun at all, but for me it’s preferable to the repeated slicing of the screwdriver, and I feel that the clippers are a better tool for severing the deeper fibers of the tongue. I would say, then, that tooled talavya works great, in that it opens up a wider and cleaner external hole in which to clip, and then the clippers are the right tool to bring it on home.
As for progress - the tip of my tongue is really close to touching the back of my throat. There’s also some gag reflex happening, which I ‘ve decided is a good sign, but it may well not be. ANYONE ELSE?? I’m very curious about this whole process, and would like to hear. Has anyone noticed progress by milking the tongue? This doesn’t do much for me.
meg |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 2:26:21 PM
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Wow.
Have I created a monster?
>> as the head of the screwdriver just slides over the fibers,
A few thoughts:
1. Is the screwdriver sufficiently sharp? (Do you sharpen it each cutting? Do you spread the sharpness around well? )
2. Are you making the tongue taut enough by pulling with your other hand?
3. Maybe you should just wait until it all heals up. If you've done heavy snipping like that, it may take two to three weeks. Try t.t. on healed tongue. You are working differently to me in that you continue to try to go deeper and deeper into unhealed tongue. I wait until it has healed, so many fibers come to the top, where they are densely packed and have few capilliaries among them (so there is less blood).
Tooled talavya was never that bloody for me. And never that painful either. I think this follows from letting it heal; more fibers come to the top, and there don't tend to be many capilliaries near the surface withing the frenum. If you go deeper it gets bloodier.
I'd be inclined to avoid the clipper for anything deep like that....
>> As for progress - the tip of my tongue is really close to touching the back of my throat. There’s also some gag reflex happening, which I ‘ve decided is a good sign, but it may well not be. ANYONE ELSE??
Yes, that's a good sign. You are really proceeding rapidly.
>> Has anyone noticed progress by milking the tongue? This doesn’t do much for me.
From an earlier post:
For the stretching the tongue exercises, I merely use a cotton handkerchief -- I use it to hold the tongue, much like you would hold something hot with a towel. This makes for a very good grip.
Stretching/milking the tongue, btw, buys you only two things: one, it may get you a few millimeters gain in the length of your tongue and then you will hit the frenum limit. That few millimeters gain maxes out early and never gets longer.
The other thing it will help with is getting tendon fibers to the surface. This can speed up the readiness for the next snipping.
So I think milking the tongue is really all about speeding up the normalization of the fibers so you can do your next clipping. I think it may also increase the densely-packedness of the fibers at the top. I do think it helps with that.
I don't think it is really for making the tongue longer.
I hope that helps,
regards,
-David "The Tooled Screwdriver" Obsidian
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 22 2005 2:44:10 PM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 3:20:56 PM
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Hello Meg,
That's some bhakti in action!
I still snip maybe once a week, but have not been able to stay in stage 2 kechari without using my finger. I can reach a ridge behind the uvula that has a different taste but when I remove my finger, my tongue slips right back out.
Stage 2 Kechari has dropped back in importance to me lately. When I am really ready for it, I am sure that I will get to it. I walk around in a deep stage 1 throughout a good portion of the day and find that it is a nice enhancement to ecstatic conductivity. I am not sure that I am quite ready for more kundalini. Stage 2 is a highly advanced mudra that I am sure is really beneficial in some of the later stages of yoga.
I am trying to work on inner silence, as I find that I can make more progress that way. My friend can achieve stage 2 kechari and she seems to have little inner silence or inner peace. So I think that we can get to stage 2 a little prematurely. Inner silence is half of the equasion right? I feel that I have plenty of ecstatic conductivity for now.
Keep us posted on your progress! Let us know what you notice when you get there!
With Peace,
Paul
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 3:36:50 PM
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David - Thanks for replying - if I'm a monster, it's not your fault. :) I think the screwdriver is plenty sharp - it's not razor sharp, but there's no problem with it cutting through the outer skin. Yes, I sharpen it before each cutting. I do have some trouble grabbing onto the tongue tho - it's an awkward position for me, and I prefer to lift it up, meaning touch the roof of my mouth where the hard/soft palates meet, then scrape in that position. Actually, I use both positions. What do you think about this? (the raised tongue vs. the extended tongue?) I always let my tongue heal completely now before starting to cut again.
It occurs to me that it must have taken forever for the yogis of old to scrape with their tongues, and maybe that was the point - not to rush. Any thoughts on this?
m |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 4:44:49 PM
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>> David - Thanks for replying - if I'm a monster, it's not your fault. :)
Did I say a monster was a bad thing? 
>> I do have some trouble grabbing onto the tongue tho - it's an awkward position for me, and I prefer to lift it up, meaning touch the roof of my mouth where the hard/soft palates meet, then scrape in that position.
Yes, I've used the raised tongue too. I find it OK for trimming, but not so good when the cutting is tough.... The screwdriver needs to be quite-sharp for it... and the screwdriver can slip in it.
Maybe that is what is happening -- maybe you have reached tough frenum and cannot cut it without slipping in the raised tongue position (without the tautness) and you need to go to the extended tongue position (with the tautness).
Yes, the extended tongue position is quite awkward. I (right-handed) pull my tongue with my left hand, out, up a little, and to the left a little, then tilt my head back a little. Line of sight is tight but just about adequate.
I've found, by the way, something different to you: that it can be hard for me to get it started and that is when I need the extended tongue position. The starting slit can be the harder part for me.... Until I get a groove started, it can slip if I don't make a taut tongue and apply pressure. Once I am into the groove, and go down a millimeter or two, it's easier and I can go to the raised tongue position to trim.
For tough frenum, extra tightness of the pull and extra pressure with the screwdriver helps. Maybe try holding the screwdriver closer to its cutting tip so you are almost rubbing. It's a fine, rubbing, scraping movement. Make the frenum hard by pulling, and scrape the hard surface of the frenum. I think the screwrdriver won't slip, but will cut instead, if the frenum is taut enough and the pressure sufficient.
>> It occurs to me that it must have taken forever for the yogis of old to scrape with their tongues, and maybe that was the point - not to rush. Any thoughts on this?
Well, rush is relative.... For the many reasons discussed in AYP, slow might be better in most cases. I think the important thing is not to hurt yourself, or make a horrible chore out of it.
I have the manual dexterity, the motivation, the sight and sense of how to do this, and am completely unbothered by the pain and the blood which are both minimal in my case. If you are 'at this place' with it, this practice makes sense, otherwise, well, think it all out.
From what I hear from you, I might be going through a lot less blood and pain than you are.... are you sure you are not overdoing it?
BTW, if you are able to make yourself gag with your tongue, I think you might be close to entering the pharynx.
Also, Yogis have used blades ( normally ordinary knives I think) to cut the frenum. There will always be people taking a fast track to Kechari. Some of them will be misguided in it, and some of them won't.
Best,
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 22 2005 4:46:07 PM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2005 : 01:14:42 AM
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Meg,
This sounds like too aggressive approach to me.please let your tongue heal before doing further cutting. while kechari is a good and useful practice it is not worth infection or damage to your tongue. Let it heal and then you can proceed.
I have personally gotten very good benefit from stretching the tongue and have personally found it more useful than snipping. While I am eager to have fellow kechari friends to share the practice with I am getting a little concerned with your description. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2005 : 10:21:44 AM
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Hi Meg:
I agree with Victor. While it is always your choice, common sense indicates that the risk ought not exceed the reward. It is a fact that if we find ourselves forcing our way into a practice, we are probably somewhat premature. It has happened to me along the way too. It happens to everyone. From this we learn to bide our time and take smaller steps. Tempering our bhakti a bit to protect our wellbeing is part of self-pacing. It is balancing the longing of our heart with the evolving abilities of our body, mind and nervous system. Over the long run, the divine will have its way. Gentle persistence over time will yield the best results, more so than short term intensity. The tortoise and the hare, you know.
Having said all that, I'd like to commend you on your wonderful strong bhakti. It will take you far. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2005 : 1:01:19 PM
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Victor, Yogani - Thanks for your concern. I do let the cut heal thoroughly before clipping again, which is usually around a week to 10 days. I think the description of my process sounds much more aggressive than it really is, but there is no genteel way to describe the process of slicing flesh. Plz be assured that I am a reasonable person and am behaving accordingly. I found that taking just a few little snips was ineffective, so essentially I'm taking one slice and a lot of little snips. I'll try stretching the tongue again and see what happens.
Is it bhakti? or just plain curiosity. How does one determine these things.
thanks again -
m |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2005 : 1:22:15 PM
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Meg,
having regarded all cautions, if you try my recommendations on stopping the slipping, let me know how it goes....
in summary:
find tolerable angle and line of sight
harden (strong pull)
press hard with tool
hold tool close to tip for fine movements
fine scraping action, not chiselling action
>> Is it bhakti? or just plain curiosity. How does one determine these things?
I just check if the cat is dead or not. LOL.
Others may have more strict tests!! But AYAM what AYAM as Popeye says!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 23 2005 1:28:56 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2005 : 2:28:49 PM
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Hi Meg:
If you know you will be hot on the trail of human spiritual transformation for as long as it takes, you can be pretty sure it is bhakti. Either that, or a very special kind of curiosity.
The guru is in you.
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frenum snipping update
