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viru
USA
5 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 2:53:24 PM
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Hi,
I am trying to understand the differences between two paths kundalini yoga and mindfulness meditation. There is definitely cross over between different spiritual systems, but just for the sake of the discussion, please allow me to treat them as two distinct systems.
Here are my questions:
1.Let us say a person is a good candidate for both mindfulness
meditation and kundalini yoga. Also, the person has the
availability of both mindfulness and kundalini gurus. But the
person can afford to go to only one master. Which approach should
he select?
2.I agree that it is difficult to associate a technique or concept
to only one tradition. But generally speaking, the mindfulness
meditation masters talk more about daily chores, and other simple
things in life (washing dishes, cutting vegetables, observing
nature etc). Kundalini/Hindu masters talk more about
metaphysics (life, death, soul, miracles, creation etc). Why is
this difference in teaching? Is it because of the level of their
realization or just a choice of the tradition?
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 5:43:59 PM
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| I bow to the guru. I'm no expert and I have only limited experience. My advice would be to follow your heart to the guru with whom you feel the closest and most natural connection and let your life develop from there. If you want to blend both worlds then you should look into Vajrayana, Advaita or Kashirism. Vajrayana in the Kagyu lineage is my path and it combines mindfulness and kundaliini yoga (and more great secretive blessings). It is a great blessing. It speaks to my heart and the Kagyu Sangha is very special and wonderful. What speaks to your heart? Follow your heart. Your inner guru is the ultimate guru of all possibilities and potentials. It is showing you your past life karma and where your present points. Your question reveals your truth. Maybe you are looking to decide. Maybe you are looking for something else that you are only just beginning to realize. Continue this way, friend. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 15 2009 5:47:22 PM |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 08:34:44 AM
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Hi Osel,
I recently sat in on a meditation group based on mahamudra; it got me started thinking...what is the role of kundalini in the Buddhist tradition? I know this is a simplistic question, ie there are many different lineages which have different practice techniques and viewpoints; but any generalizations you can make that would shed some light on how kundalini is addressed and which practices are meant to address them would be helpful.
I had a few people in the class asked me about my practice background and when I spoke about the process of raising kundalini/prana/chi and they looked at me like I had three heads...I'm sure it is addressed (per your comment above), I'm just not familiar with the terminology. I'd be nice to have an AYP to Buddhist translation book (and for all of the major traditions for that matter) 
Much love to you
Parallax |
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viru
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 3:02:23 PM
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Hi Osel,
Thank you for your response. Somehow I thought that it was not safe to combine kundalini yoga and mindfulness. Also, I thought kundalini yoga is more powerful than mindfulness meditation. But looks like it is not the case.
Personally, I like to combine them. Can enjoy both the practices.
What is Kashirism? Is it same as Kashmir Shaivism? |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 11:30:03 PM
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Kashmir Shivism, yes. Mindfulness is the seat of all meditation, the basis, the basic form. The kundalini, channel, chakra, nadi and bindu practices are *auxiliary* practices *to help* a yogi progress more swiftly. Perfect unfettered mindfulness is the ultimate view uncluttered by karmic obscuration and confusion. Mindfulness and Mahamudra are the same thing. Vajrayana has kundalini practices like tummo and karmamudra and many thousands of others which help a yogi make a short cut through the veils of obscurations and fast forward through the natural ripening process. If you are part of a real Mahamudra group then the Rinpoche who lead it will have sat in a 3-year retreat be expert in the Six Yogas of Naropa, which culminate with kundalini practices. Also, when one has some experience with Mahamudra, the view results in the winds gathering in the central channel, a precursor to awakening. All of this is described in great detail by Milarepa in the Hundred Thousand Songs.
If you are in a beginning class, the Rinpoche will not likely reveal these things to you and keep you in the dark while he gets you to recognize your mind's nature while learning to put your trust in him.
Be aware that the Six Yogas and kundalini practices are not something you really must have to succeed. The Kagyu lineage is the practice blessing lineage and Guru Yoga practices in the Kagyu oral instructions is amazingly powerful.
If you are joining a Kagyu class, drop your preconceptions about how you want to be taught and what material you want to learn. Trust your lama. 800 years and thousands of enlightened masters have honed practices that will tear the veils of ego from your stream of being if you have faith, meaning let go of your expectations altogether. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 18 2009 11:55:28 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 07:18:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
If you are part of a real Mahamudra group then the Rinpoche who lead it will have sat in a 3-year retreat be expert in the Six Yogas of Naropa
It takes much more than 3 years to be an expert.
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
If you are in a beginning class, the Rinpoche will not likely reveal these things to you and keep you in the dark
Even if you are follwing him since 10 or 20 years.
You're apparently new to this because you still believe what they say.
I know "old" practicioners who have followed the greatest lamas since they are in the West, let's say 20 to 30 years, they never got anything useful. They know nothing about clear light.
I've attended a 1 week tummo retreat, the teacher (a tibetan monk of course) managed to never speak about it. In this group, there have been extensive thögal teachings. Needless to say that no one has the ability to practice because all the keys were skipped. And long retreats are highly overrated.
I know this because I'm practicing hard, and I have several friends practicing hard. All the things I've found to be keystones in tibetan practices are systematically skipped in the teachings. Especially kundalini.
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
while he gets you to recognize your mind's nature while learning to put your trust in him.
"Never trust anyone, even your lama". Shenphen Dawa.
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
If you are joining a Kagyu class, drop your preconceptions about how you want to be taught and what material you want to learn. Trust your lama. 800 years and thousands of enlightened masters have honed practices that will tear the veils of ego from your stream of being if you have faith, meaning let go of your expectations altogether.
I'm watching people like you since ten years, they keep saying they trust the lama and he will give averything. So far, I've seen no progress. That's just a joke.
What I say is not personal, you should just investigate a little more about old western practicioners and their result. Just ask them how many of them are accessing clear light of deep sleep.
The day you will practice tummo, not 30mn a day but 5 hours, you will understand what I say. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 3:26:19 PM
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I bow to the guru, Kadak, Nothing personal, but your words ring with a touch of anger, doubt and frustration. That's just my personal observation, and shows that you need to dedicate merit for all beings.
You should be clear that different practitioners progress at different speeds. Different practitioners are starting at various points on the path. Just because one person takes 30 years to realize the nature of mind or master dream yoga, doesn't mean that another won't take 1.
If you are practicing in the Dzogchen tradition, then the practice of guru yoga will be different. In the Kagyu lineage, we believe it is of utmost importance to make offerings to and and have faith in the guru. When we speak of the guru, we are talking about the Ultimate Guru, Buddha Vajradhara. In his past lives, the Buddha made vast offerings to innumerable Buddhas. The Kagyu practices place great importance on guru yoga. Yogani also puts great faith in the "inner guru." The Nyingmapa practice is to visualize the guru as the white syllable A. Guru is guru. Dzogchen masters, like Lama Surya Das also greatly revere their lamas.
You should think twice about telling other people what they do or believe is a joke. That's not compassionate, and is the root of your lack of progress.
Your experience is really not that important or relevant. If people you practice with can't make progress because they skip important points, then that is their problem, not the teachings.
You should investigate the nature of your dour attitude, and try to see if there is anything substantial there to communicate. I have a wonderfully blessed relationship with my lama. If you don't have that kind of relationship, then that is your problem. Find another lama or change your attitude toward the one you have. Keep in mind the teachings of karma.
Unless you exert yourself with faith that the teachings and the teacher are flawless buddhas, whether they are greatly flawed or not, you will not receive the blessings. Faith and belief are absolutely necessary to blessings. Without faith, you are just running through the motions. Your teacher could be the Milarepa or Guru Rinpoche, but unless you have faith in them, they will just look like lumpy old men.
My experiences, signs, secrets and realizations are the teachings of the inner guru; I have no doubt about them. My lama is the outer manifestation of my inner aspirations. My practices are the gifts of the Buddha. I genuinely love my lama, and I have more than one. Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche is a sincere friend, and His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche is a wonderful and learned master, and a genuinely humble and loving teacher. My guru will take many manifestations before I pass on; this I have no doubt about, because I have faith that I will attain enlightenment in this life. Even if I don't, I won't worry about it. I'm not afraid of carrying on as I am now.
If you are uncertain about the nature of mind and cannot persist in shamatha, then you will not make progress in Thogal. Perhaps repeating the preliminaries will help you. Or keep in mind three statements of Garab Dorje: 1. Be directly introduced to mind's real nature. 2. Cast aside all doubts about it. 3. Continue without distraction. Which means carry one without expectations, fears, hopes or judgment.
If you strip your mind of your doubts and see things as they really are, then perhaps you will see your teachers and the teachings in a new way. Or perhaps your heart teacher will appear. One or the other is bound to happen.
If I'm reading you the wrong way, I'm sorry. I'm merely your mirror.
Best,
Ösel Dorje |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 19 2009 4:08:05 PM |
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viru
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 02:54:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Kashmir Shivism, yes. Mindfulness is the seat of all meditation, the basis, the basic form. The kundalini, channel, chakra, nadi and bindu practices are *auxiliary* practices *to help* a yogi progress more swiftly. Perfect unfettered mindfulness is the ultimate view uncluttered by karmic obscuration and confusion. Mindfulness and Mahamudra are the same thing. Vajrayana has kundalini practices like tummo and karmamudra and many thousands of others which help a yogi make a short cut through the veils of obscurations and fast forward through the natural ripening process. If you are part of a real Mahamudra group then the Rinpoche who lead it will have sat in a 3-year retreat be expert in the Six Yogas of Naropa, which culminate with kundalini practices. Also, when one has some experience with Mahamudra, the view results in the winds gathering in the central channel, a precursor to awakening. All of this is described in great detail by Milarepa in the Hundred Thousand Songs.
If you are in a beginning class, the Rinpoche will not likely reveal these things to you and keep you in the dark while he gets you to recognize your mind's nature while learning to put your trust in him.
Be aware that the Six Yogas and kundalini practices are not something you really must have to succeed. The Kagyu lineage is the practice blessing lineage and Guru Yoga practices in the Kagyu oral instructions is amazingly powerful.
If you are joining a Kagyu class, drop your preconceptions about how you want to be taught and what material you want to learn. Trust your lama. 800 years and thousands of enlightened masters have honed practices that will tear the veils of ego from your stream of being if you have faith, meaning let go of your expectations altogether.
Osel, very helpful information. Gave me pretty good idea about how/where to start. Thank you very much again.
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solo
USA
167 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2009 : 10:17:28 AM
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| I am just a beginner in spirituality, but I think that one can practice mindfulness without ever having a kundalini experience. Kundalini is a powerful, transformative energy while mindfulness is more about being present in the moment. I would imagine that both are great practices but not nearly the same. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2009 : 1:06:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by solo
I am just a beginner in spirituality, but I think that one can practice mindfulness without ever having a kundalini experience. Kundalini is a powerful, transformative energy while mindfulness is more about being present in the moment. I would imagine that both are great practices but not nearly the same.
Mindfulness as undistractedness leads to a concentration of mind energy or prana. Kundalini yoga practices add high octane concentration of mind energy for use in mindfulness practice. This leads to deeper realization more swiftly. Another way to say this is that Kundalini Yoga practices purify karmic obscurations as Yogani says, "pressure wash" your karma away. Then, one's purified mindfulness has an totally different deep, open spacious free quality. |
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Kundalini yoga vs Mindfulness meditation
