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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 20 2009 : 1:18:56 PM
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Hi Maximus, thanks for your reply. Seldom have so few of my words evoked so many. Don't worry, I'm not interested in quibbiling with you, but I thought maybe you would like these words of Wittgenstein:
"The world of the happy is quite another than that of the unhappy.
As in death, too, the world does not change, but ceases.
Death is not an event in life. Death is not lived through.
If by eternity is understood not endless temporal duration but timelessness,
then he lives eternally who lives in the present.
Our life is endless in the way that our visual field is without limit.
...the solution to the riddle of life in space and time,
lies outside space and time.
Not how the world is, is the mystical, but that it is.
The contemplation of the world sub specie aeterni
is its contemplation as a limited whole. The feeling of the world
as a limited whole is the mystical feeling.
For an answer that cannot be expressed,
the question too cannot be expressed.
The riddle does not exist.
If a question can be put at all,
then it can also be answered.
The solution to the problem of life is seen in the vanishing of the problem.
There is indeed the inexpressable.
This shows itself;
it is the mystical."
All The Best, dfb |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2009 : 1:51:24 PM
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Maximus wrote
"Only I have predicted a bigger doomsdom for the one that knew what his heart desired but did not go for it and became an old man physically not capable anymore."
and earlier:
"If you read the story I posted you will see that the guy who went after his desires and got abundant of it to be point of getting bored was able to let go of it at the time of death, while the other guy hadn't crossed this step. He was still at the bottom of the stairs. No one says the staircase will be your permanent residence, but you gotta climb it, right?"
No. Neither of these statements is true.
They are written from the perspective of someone who imagines that a hypothetical situation is the same as real life. Experiencing the attainment of a desire does NOT help at all to get rid of desires. There is no difference between one who has attained desires and one who wishes he had.
There is a Buddhist saying:
"All human suffering comes from either having what you don't want, or from wanting what you don't have."
The old man's position would be THE SAME in either case. One man is wishing for something shiny that he doesn't have; the other has it and realizes it has no value.
In either case the problem is concentration on something of no value.
The man who never pursued the desires is deluded into thinking they had value. That is his whole problem, not that he didn't get the worthless thing. He still thinks there is value in something that is worthless.
It is like giving a starving man a picture of a three course meal. It doesn't matter that another starving man didn't get the picture. What matters is that the picture is worthless; it just looks good.
As long as you concentrate on wanting something you can't have you will be unhappy.
And as long as another man concentrates on not wanting something he does have, he will be unhappy.
That is the difference in attaining desires; they don't create satisfaction, they create attachment.
How many rich and famous people who have it all have you heard of that are fulfilled? It is more common that they are drug addicts, or alcoholics, or constantly trying kinkier sex that finally kills them. This proves that "having it all" doesn't get rid of desires.
It is the thought patterns that doom the old man, not actions taken or not taken.
He only needs to solve one little problem to change his entire world:
How can I survive, and what kind of man can I be without any of those desires that I have always thought to be essential?
It will be the hardest thing you have ever done in your life to let go of the desires.
However, you are already doomed if you don't let go.
You need to imagine what you could be without the desires. And throw out the bad images, and find some that are good.
What will be the most exciting is finding that you have not lost everything; that was an illusion also!
Been there!
P.S. All desires on earth are like the picture of the three course meal.
Meditation is the path to getting a real meal. It cannot be seen as a path by those who are still drooling over the pictures of food.
The old man who has pursued his desires has a whole collection of pictures of food. He is still starving, and wants MORE pictures.
Another old man has no pictures at all. He has a burning desire to get some of those pictures. He thinks the other man is better off.
Neither man has any real food. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jun 20 2009 2:13:42 PM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2009 : 6:31:20 PM
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Hi Maximus:
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. That someone is doomed? Many someones? What to do about it? There is an eternal evolutionary force in the universe and it lives in us. It is us. So who is actually doomed? Yet, we would like to reduce suffering. It is a valid concern.
Forms come and go. Spirit lives on -- that is what does not change. What we are cannot be created, destroyed, or doomed. What we may assume ourselves to be (identification with the body/mind) can be created, destroyed, doomed, saved and doomed again -- the roller coaster of temporal life.
These mental projections to old age you are making convey a need for practice now, and living fully each day. Yet, your arguments seem to ignore the present, which is where we are living. Are you drawing conclusions about what to do in the present? If so, what?
In any case, in the present we are perpetually dead already, so it is not necessary to project far into the future to learn the lessons of desire and choice.
The Maximus of two minutes ago is dead. Gone forever. He no longer exists. It is only conventional thinking that keeps the illusion of him going. Was he doomed because he did not wear out all his desires before he died two minutes ago? Of course not. Life continues eternally, so no one is doomed. Your awareness is still here, isn't it? So how can you be doomed, even though you have just died unfulfilled?
If we are dying in each moment, is it necessary to be lamenting a hypothetical old age? It isn't about then. It is about now.
As I said back when, leave judgments about old age for the elderly. Serve them if you have the opportunity (they are our teachers), while continuing to live in the present.
The real question is, what is the constant awareness (5th dimension) underneath all these stories? It is suggested to get in touch with that.
If you would rather be right than find the truth about yourself, then keep on exercising mental logic and debate. Maybe it is a desire you are trying to wear out before ... oops, you are dead again... 
Glad to hear you are meditating twice daily. Are you noticing more inner presence beyond the ramblings of the mind? That is the real you, the One who lives on (and loves) through all this dying. Consider choosing more from There.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2009 : 11:39:43 PM
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My only question to Etherfish is - who is in a better position to throw away the picture of the food? The guy who got it and realized its worthlessness or the guy who still longs to have it? Why should one sit idly on a chair, contemplate on the worthlesness of a picture, like you suggest, instead of actually getting the picture, feeling it with one's own hands, and then throw it away? Why should one take another man's word for granted that there is worthlessness in desires? Assume he is a caveman and no one ever told him so. He is following the natural course of unfolding by first hand experience himself. He had no reason not to. Even though he may realize the object is valueless he finds the experience invaluable.
One meditates for 40 minutes for a day only, what do you suggest he do for the rest of the day? Idle contemplation and not any action? You must be kidding.
Whether you are able to understand an object by mere comtemplation alone and let go depends on your maturity level and also on the object. If my friend invites me too bungee jumping saying it is thrillng, I tell him it doesn't excite me in anyway, and don't do go for it, even though I have never done bungee jumping. And have no regrets. There is no seed of unfulfilled desire there, so no suffering.
Here my letting go depended on my mental state. My friend couldn't be convinced there is no need for excitement in bungee jumping, because he has the seed. It would be uncompassionate of you ignore the fact he carries a seed, and tell him to vanquish the seed by mere contemplation. It would be very compassioinate of you to stand by him while he is doing the jumping, and tell him, see, that's all it is; you jump, you come back, it is like a child's play; it gets bored after a while. |
Edited by - Maximus on Jun 21 2009 01:23:48 AM |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 12:40:13 AM
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Hi Yogani
You have the bad habit of telling people that death is just another day. The Maximus of 2 minutes ago is dead but I see everything he saw, remember everything he remembered, etc. The situation is not yet doomed. I'm stilled blessed with a continuity of memory, have 5 senses, a powerful brain, limbs etc. After I die that is not the caes. Everything gets taken away from me. You will immediately retort that only my identification with things. But that's all I have. I might have had glimpses of inner silence during meditation, but I couldn't merge the inner and the outer. Why? Because of unfulfilled desires which the outer runs after. While I live I still have the opportunity to run after desires, see beyond desires, let go of them, and make my self identification shift inward towards the deathless inner man. Only then I could say I'm an immortal. Until then I'd be deluding myself if I thought death is just another day.
The withered old man knows this; he knows everything is about to be taken away from him. He couldn't possibly identify constantly with the inner man. Remember his unfulfilled desires is piled up to the height of Mt. Everest. He can't see how when he is a hungry ghost, with no brain, no eyes, no ears, no body, with no means of fulfillment, and a huge guilt of wasted opportunity can possibly not be doomed. His concern is very valid. Therefore he beats his breast and cries incessantly.
You ask
"These mental projections to old age you are making convey a need for practice now, and living fully each day. Yet, your arguments seem to ignore the present, which is where we are living. Are you drawing conclusions about what to do in the present? If so, what? "
I think the discussion is still valid even for a younger man with unfulfilled desires twice the height of Mt.Everest. By God's grace he didn't pile up more than that but by the time he is a withered old man, his unfulfilled desires still stand to the height of 1 Mt.Everest. Or the ignorant young man who lived all his life living out the seeds planted by his parents and much later in life discovered the seeds he brought with him at birth. |
Edited by - Maximus on Jun 21 2009 03:10:37 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 01:19:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Maximus
My only question to Etherfish is - who is in a better position to throw away the picture of the food? The guy who got it and realized its worthlessness or the guy who still longs to have it?
Your question is based upon logic, but being in the position to let go of something doesn't come from logic. It is true people spend a lot of time satisfying desires before they let them go. But letting them go isn't a result of satisfying them. Rather it is a result of intending to rise to a different level. Yes, some people get there from experiencing enough and wanting more.
What I was talking about with the picture of food is a different subject. Earlier you said the old man regrets things, and wishes for things he is not equipped to have.
That is the man who has doomed himself with his thoughts. That is different than someone who can still obtain his desires.
What I was saying is if you can not experience what you wish for, you are doomed by your thinking; a form of insanity. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jun 21 2009 01:22:25 AM |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 01:43:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by EtherfishYour question is based upon logic, but being in the position to let go of something doesn't come from logic.
Why not? You walk on a rough terrain gossiping with your friends who keep you entertained like there is no tomorrow. You suddenly notice a steep abyss. Then you realize that idly talking and getting comfortable (sense indulgement) is deluding yourself instead of watching out for abyss (death) and planning alternate course of action and choose a different direction from there. Pure logic. If there were no abysses there is no harm indulging in idle chatter like no tomorrow. But there are. And only because there are abysses you do things differently now. Absolutely logical and understandable.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
What I was talking about with the picture of food is a different subject. Earlier you said the old man regrets things, and wishes for things he is not equipped to have.
My arguments are based on assuming there is a purpose in being born. If you believe there is purpose in being born you would logically see that experiencing things and letting go it much more seems like a valid purpose for being born, rather than wishing for things and never tasting them first hand. Then there was no need to be born. If the Self is unlimited and unconditioned, and is superior to material universe, it seems more like the nature of the self to bring forth abundance of material manifestation as if by the swift of thought and relinquising them as if by another swift of thought. That they say, is what God is doing. If the Self were to let go of things by wishful thinking alone then it would appear like the self is limited in some ways and not truly a master of the material. By reverse logic it would seem like the material universe need not have ever existed. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 03:27:47 AM
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Yes, I agree that our reality has a purpose.
But that's not what this topic was about.
You were talking about an old man who could no longer satisfy his desires. |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 04:00:29 AM
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| If existence is to play out and play hard in the material universe like a child making objects out of mud as he likes, and the old man can no longer do this/has not done played enough, that is his grief. He feels unike nature where things come and go at will at the thought of the creator. He feels disconnected. He could manipulate this thinking into not thinking about it, but the seed exists even without him thinking, and it will always exist unburnt. He can sense that the journey is not complete and there is no guarantee of rebirth. What can he dissolve when he hadn't manifested? So he beats his breasts and cries. I'm not for a moment suggesting that one should pick up more and more seeds but only talking about seeds they are already carrying. |
Edited by - Maximus on Jun 21 2009 05:18:32 AM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 05:58:34 AM
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| Hi Etherfish, it seems to me, that for all his words, the only thing that Maximus has actually said, is that we should try to live our lives without regrets. There is nothing wrong with that. The old man is just his toy doll for making teapot tempests - with which he will no doubt soon get bored. It is perhaps best to leave him to play with himself, to encourage that process. All The Best, dfb |
Edited by - divinefurball on Jun 21 2009 06:49:15 AM |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 08:32:16 AM
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| Actually, divinefurball, I'm genuinely trying to know what options the old man have. His incessant crying melts the hearts of the onlookers. Is there some way he can be consoled? Like I was speculating before can he do some kind of control over the process of death? Compassionate religious people have made religious rites for helping the journey of departed souls, it makes more logical to do something in the little time he has left. I have vaguely heard about some Buddhist techniqe called po-wa for doing this. |
Edited by - Maximus on Jun 21 2009 08:55:21 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 09:19:45 AM
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thank you DFB
Maximus,
as I said above:
It is the thought patterns that doom the old man, not the actions taken or not taken.
He only needs to solve one little problem to change his entire world. Ask himself this:
How can I survive, and what kind of man can I be without any of those desires that I have always thought to be essential?
This old man has spoiled himself by his selfish thoughts. Many poor old men would be struggling to survive; to find enough food or shelter to stay alive. Instead this man is asking others for more when he already had it all and didn't take advantage of it.
The problem was always in his mind, and yet on his death bed he is insisting the problem is in the exterior world.
During his life he had chance after chance to satisfy desires and didn't do it. Now people try to give him the answer to all his problems and he insists they are not good answers; he wants something bigger and more magical, or something he can no longer have.
It is his own thoughts that doomed him his entire life, and still do.
He stood at the door to heaven his entire life and didn't open it. Now other people open it for him, and he closes it, insisting it has no value.
PS The answer is meditation. Even if he has a short time to live, meditation brings peace and a little head start on the next life where the old man will face the very same problems he is ignoring now. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jun 21 2009 09:23:26 AM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 09:30:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Maximus
Actually, divinefurball, I'm genuinely trying to know what options the old man have. His incessant crying melts the hearts of the onlookers. Is there some way he can be consoled? Like I was speculating before can he do some kind of control over the process of death? Compassionate religious people have made religious rites for helping the journey of departed souls, it makes more logical to do something in the little time he has left. I have vaguely heard about some Buddhist techniqe called po-wa for doing this.
Hi Maximus:
I receive email from elderly folks quite often, too stiff for doing much physical yoga, and too delicate for aggressive pranayama, mudras, bandhas, etc. I always advise them to meditate in their comfortable chair, and they nearly always feel rising stillness and peace, sometimes profound.
So it is never too late. If thinking is there, so can be deep meditation. We will take the results with us, and pick up where we left off, just as we do each morning when we are reborn in this dream world again. Nothing is lost. The important thing is to make the most of this moment, no matter what our circumstances.
On death and dying, it is suggested to read Kubler Ross, Ram Dass and Stephen Levine. Better yet, be around the dying. It will add much perspective.
The guru is in you.
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 10:36:58 AM
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Hi Maximus, I'm glad that you sincerley want to help the old man, I do too, and sincerely attempted too in my Wittgenstein quote. In a nutshell "he lives eternally who lives in the present" - this is the old mans salvation, even if he doesn't realize that he is always already saved. He merely needs to realize this for his non-problem to dissapear. In my opinion this is also (part of) what - even attempting- deep meditation does for a person. Things like Po Wa, I believe, also all involve this practice. As death is something that is not lived through, by living in the present, practicioners live eternally and so never truly die. All The Best, dfb
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Edited by - divinefurball on Jun 21 2009 11:13:07 AM |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 1:39:51 PM
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| I won't take false credit dfb, the guy was fictional like you previously guessed. Thanks for your Wittgenstein quote. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 2:10:45 PM
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| I don't think he is entirely fictional. |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 2:21:28 PM
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| No he isn't. |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 4:17:01 PM
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Oh, I think he is me, and you, and the Buddha too: all fiction; the Wittgenstein quote as well, as he would be the first to (ficticiously) say:
"My propositions are elucidatory in this way: he who understands me finally recognizes them as senseless, when he has climbed out through them, on them, over them. (He must so to speak throw away the ladder, after he has climbed up on it.) He must surmount these propositions; then he sees the world rightly.
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
Blessings to All, dfb |
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Who can be more doomed than a withered old man
