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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 16 2009 : 07:15:13 AM
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What's your thoughts about this? I see it this way:
Many who choses to be with a guru develops a deep devotion for him/her. Depending on the level of realization of the devotee it may or may not be conscious that the guru is not a person, but actually an expression of That and the attraction and devotion directed toward him/her is actually an attraction to That shining through that being.
I think I read somewhere that the Love we see/sense from a realized being is of course the love we ARE our selves, but before that is fully realized it's projected unto the guru, because we cannot imagine we are that great love ourselves. It's easier to project it unto the guru.
When the devotion becomes more to the personal side on the scale, it may turn into strange secteristic development - there are many examples of that. I don't see that as beneficial for the individual. But when the devotion is towards the other side of the scale, known to be for That within the external guru... is it beneficial somehow to go into that projected love, to let that love flow freely and let it grow and become stronger - as a help to stay in the heart and stay open, or would that strengthen the mind trap of being separate and prevent a transition of the identification to move towards the guru within?
What say you? It would be nice to hear from some who perhaps have been in a wooing relationship with an external guru. |
Edited by - AYPforum on Jun 16 2009 11:40:12 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2009 : 11:39:13 AM
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hi emc, according to my personal experience i say the love we give to the guru is a love for the divine and not the person for the guru is but a reflection of that and to that we are drawn.
i guess that when you find a true guru you know what that love is like, it's like burning sugar and honey and it's pure and celestial in nature and makes us open and be "poetic" simply it's a killer amazing love filled with fiery bhakti.
so i say to whomever gets the chance to be in the presence of a wonderful guru "love love love..."
namaste,
Ananda |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2009 : 11:40:12 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2009 : 10:43:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
i guess that when you find a true guru you know what that love is like, it's like burning sugar and honey and it's pure and celestial in nature and makes us open and be "poetic" simply it's a killer amazing love filled with fiery bhakti.
yes |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 02:45:55 AM
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Hi emc,
from a personal experience I can say that I have been projecting
my ishta, my ideal and my love onto a guru that has clearly gone
to a wrong way. It took me a long time to realize that that guru
is not embodying my ideal. Unfortunately a lot of people still
project their ideal onto that guru. The problem here is that if you
project your ideal/ishta onto a guru, that projection becomes real
and you tend to think that the guru is personating that ideal,
where in actuality you are feeding the guru.
The realization that the guru is ultimately in me and not in another
person is vital to ones path.
my 2cts
Wolfgang |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 03:28:31 AM
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Oops ! i forgot to say to whomever is in the presence of a horrible guru "run run run..." |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 05:50:16 AM
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Hi emc
Thanks for opening this thread 
Although I have only met Amma once for three days, and have only connected to Mother Meera through writing her....both of these love presences left this imprint here:
Connecting with them.....enabled a greater letting go into the nothingness.
So here....even though being devoted brought me to them.....what continues to be "given back" from this connection....... is the fact that surrendering is deepening...
I feel this to be the essence of this relationalship......and this letting go never ends and is also not dependant on the guru... It is dependant on the willingness to let go here....
So.....noone can let go on my behalf.
Only inspire the surrender. Through their actions and through their vibrations (presence)
Amma and Mother Meera are both felt to be a huge loving presence and they are also a great, great inspiration here....to see that level of work....the huge impact of their loving outpouring...i am in awe of it.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 07:11:09 AM
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This is beginning to look similar to Yogani's concept of "relational self inquiry", in that a guru may be very helpful IF you have developed a certain amount on your own.
I wonder if developing the inner guru first is what is necessary? |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 08:20:56 AM
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Hi Ether
Yes.....the more relational the relationship to the guru...the more beneficial.
But...staying in the presence of a satguru can also inspire...both through their vibrational emanations and their actions...the devotee to turn inwards towards their inner guru (which is the same as that of the guru).
But either way..... surrender is the crux. |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 09:14:29 AM
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I'm really struggling with this one at the moment.
On the one hand I feel strongly that I'm ready for the external guru. But I know, in my bones, that I won't find what I'm looking for. Probably it's because I'm not temperamentally suited for the guru/chela relationship. I look at websites and all the "Ooh, Ma's lotus feet are so adorable" stuff just makes me blench. That sort of gushy silliness is not how I would approach God, so why would I approach a human that way? Surrender, I agree, is vital, but in this particular case (guru/chela) surrender just for surrender's sake seems willfully misguided.
Having said that, if I could travel back in time I would throw myself at Thakur Ramakrishna's feet in a heartbeat. Or Ramprasada's. Or Agamavisha's.
But it's difficult. I'd like to learn an authentic approach, and there are ancient Tantra lineages I would love to be initiated into. I'm always hunting for teachers, but there are so few around in my part of the world. And then there's Yogani, of course, a truly great teacher.
But I don't want a master unless he/she is also a consummate teacher and doesn't demand I treat he/she like God. I suppose here's where I surrender: Ma within will guide me to Ma without if and when it is needed... And perhaps it won't happen in this birth. |
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 09:58:10 AM
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From my personal experience, being in the presence of a realized being, a "real" guru, has allowed me to truly, directly, physically, FEEL higher energies. Even when the mind was still "thinking" and doing its business, I could feel my body/energy responding to the Presence..! to such a point that, once, it made me smile!!
Now, the merging with higher energies has become a peaceful thirst.. and yes, it's burning!! it's a kind of higher lovemaking, beyond the bodymind, and the more surrendered you are, the more penetrating it is, and it just leaves you speechless..
Sometimes, after loosing your "self" like that, for a moment, it's difficult to get back to the crowdy reality and people around.. you just feel like staying "there", in this pool of emptiness and lights..
I rarely could find this "emptiness" and light inside, during practices.. and anyway, it never had the same intensity..
Until now, my deepest experiences happened while merging in higher energies.. in a higher presence.. |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 12:58:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by christiane
From my personal experience, being in the presence of a realized being, a "real" guru, has allowed me to truly, directly, physically, FEEL higher energies.
yes
quote:
Even when the mind was still "thinking" and doing its business, I could feel my body/energy responding to the Presence..! to such a point that, once, it made me smile!!
yes
quote:
Now, the merging with higher energies has become a peaceful thirst.. and yes, it's burning!! it's a kind of higher lovemaking, beyond the bodymind, and the more surrendered you are, the more penetrating it is, and it just leaves you speechless..
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 6:57:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
Probably it's because I'm not temperamentally suited for the guru/chela relationship.
That's the same way I feel.
Several times i have thought I found the perfect guru, only to later lose interest after learning some from them. Then i drop them as quickly as i had picked them up. And yet my inner guru is very strong and guides me to lessons constantly. So i feel it is best for me to cultivate that, and I feel at home here because of it.
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 11:17:20 PM
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I feel at home here too. I've always relied on my inner guru as well, but it's nice to feel some validation from this community...
I suppose what I ought to have written above was quote:
Ma within will guide me to Ma without if and when it is needed...and Ma without will guide me back to Ma within
. It's all in the paradox, right? |
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 12:32:26 AM
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Hi all.
Yesterday, I was reading an interesting talk that I thought would fit in this thread. The author is Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev (I've already mentioned his name in previous posts - you can find many videos of him on YouTube).
Herebelow is an excerpt of his talks on "Trust" :
If your energies are in Muladhara, food and sleep will be the main qualities in your life. If your energies moves into Swadhistana, then you are a pleasure seeker, you want to enjoy the world in so many ways. If your energies move into Manipuraka you are a doer in the world, you are always doing something. If your energies move into Anahatha, you become a very creative person. If your energies move into Vishuddhi,you become a very powerful being. If your energies move into Agna, then you are intellectually fully enlightened. You have attained peace. When your energies move to Sahasrar, you will burst into ecstasy, unexplained ecstasies for which there are no external reasons.
From Muladhara to Agna, there are many ways. There are many systems through which you can move your energies to Agna, but from Agna to Sahasrar, there is no way. There is no path. There is no particular way to do this; it is just a jump. It is because of this, that so much stress has been laid on the guru-shishya relationship. The master-disciple relationship has been held as the most sacred relationship in this culture because of this jump. If you have to take this jump you need deep trust on the guru.
Now let us say that you wish to go to Kedarnath right now. Somebody is driving; the roads are laid out. If you go alone and there is no proper direction, definitely you would wish there was a map to tell you how to get there. Similarly, on one level, a guru is just a map. He is a live map. If you can read the map, you know the way, and thus can go for your destination. A guru can also be like your bus driver. Even if you fall off to sleep in the bus, the driver would take you to Kedarnath, but to sit in this bus and doze off, or to sit in this bus joyfully, you need to trust the driver. If every moment, with every curve on the road, you go on thinking, "will this man kill me? Will this man go off the road? What intention does he have?" then you will go mad sitting in the bus. Similarly, a guru needs your trust; if there is no trust you will drive yourself mad.
Unconscious & Conscious Trust
This is not just for sitting in a bus or going on a spiritual journey. To live on this planet, you need trust. Right now, you trust unconsciously. Let us say you are sitting in a bus, which is just a bundle of nuts and bolts and pieces of metal. But unknowingly, you trust this vehicle so much, isn't it? You have placed your life in the hands of this mechanical mess, which is just nuts and bolts, rubbers and wires. You have placed your life on it, because you trust the bus unconsciously. The same trust, if it arises consciously, would do miracles to you. When we say trust, we are not talking about anything new in life. To be here, to take every breath in and out, you need trust. Your trust is unconscious. I am only asking you to bring a little consciousness to your trust. It is not something new; life is trust, otherwise nobody can exist here.
So, if you can draw your own map, if you can drive your own bus, it is wonderful. But on an uncharted path, if you go without a map, it may take a lifetime to find a certain place. But if you go with a map you can find your destination easily. |
Edited by - christiane on Jun 18 2009 02:36:37 AM |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2010 : 02:53:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by christiane
So, if you can draw your own map, if you can drive your own bus, it is wonderful. But on an uncharted path, if you go without a map, it may take a lifetime to find a certain place. But if you go with a map you can find your destination easily.
Reminds me of an excerpt from the Christmas carol "Good King Wenceslas":
"Mark my footsteps, my good page
Tread thou in them boldly
Thou shalt find the winter's rage
Freeze thy blood less coldly."
In his master's steps he trod
Where the snow lay dinted
Heat was in the very sod
Which the Saint had printed
The Guru has trod the path before us, clearing the way, showing the way, and warming the path with Shakti. Ours is simply to follow. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2010 : 11:55:41 PM
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"I think I read somewhere that the Love we see/sense from a realized being is of course the love we ARE our selves, but before that is fully realized it's projected unto the guru, because we cannot imagine we are that great love ourselves. It's easier to project it unto the guru."
Yes. It's a Love than we ARE. That was what God explained /revealed to me in my very first conversation with him. He explained it quite logically how it works. It is not about someone loving you, it is always about you loving someone. The person is just a mirror reflecting the love than you are.
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Devotion of an external guru beneficial or not?
