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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - May 11 2009 : 9:49:24 PM
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In some of the most esoteric non-dual teachings (Kashmir Shaivism, Vajrayana Buddhism, Dzogchen, Zen) - one of the hallmarks of enlightenment is said to be:
Cessation of doubt.
Cessation of hesitation.
As the "sense of self" shifts from idea-of-partiality, to simple, clear awareness - it's seen that doubt (and therefore hesitation) can only be a function *of* idea-of-partiality.
When we experience self as "thinking we are who we think we are" - of *course* there's doubt -- I've got to figure out how to get what *I* need; how to avoid what *I* don't want ... and somehow, make sure it all happens in the way *I* want and need it to happen!
This is a recipe for a very bad dream.
It's also kind of inherent in the body-mind system we think of as being so limited; that we think of as "me".
The way to awaken out of the bad dream, and realize that doubt and hesitation are the results of the idea-of-partiality ... is to continue practices on an accurate-map spiritual path (my recommendation: AYP. Why? I know it works -- and we're all here. <- As In: Why not be where you are; you are anyway.)
Practices-alone may not take you all the way ... but practices-alone facilitates a gap in thought-stream ... which leads to experiencing of cessation of thought-stream (or, more accurately, to cessation of *identification* with thought-stream) in daily-life.
Which leads to realization and recognition of this silent awareness as the true self.
As Adyashanti says: it's an extremely subtle shift in perspective-identification ... yet it changes everything (subtle, because we live our lives from-as awareness, always -- the thought-stream just isn't conscious of this, because it's too busy thinking it's partial-world into existence.)
Identification with form gives way to identification with emptiness.
Identification with emptiness gives way to identification with everything.
Identification with everything gives way to I AM.
Really?
Oh, Yeah!
Without a Doubt!
Intending the Light of Awareness for All,
Kirtanman
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 03:45:59 AM
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Thanks for the nice post KM
Is it like this all the time or are there times when it comes and goes, when there is harmony and then adjustment?
Can you speak about the difference between "doubt" and "don't know"
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 11:20:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Thanks for the nice post KM
Is it like this all the time or are there times when it comes and goes, when there is harmony and then adjustment?
Can you speak about the difference between "doubt" and "don't know"
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Hi Sparkle,
Thanks for the kind words, great questions - and cool Namaste Graphic!
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As far as "all the time" - I take it you're asking about the cessation of doubt?
I've found that in clear-awareness, tracking things "in time" like that is a lot less valuable than I literally thought (and I'm happy to answer the question -- just including this as a directly-related FYI - For Your Information - for anyone reading who may not recognize that acronym).
Basically, cessation of doubt is ultimately a *result* of clear-mind ... only partial-mind can doubt.
So, if there's doubting - partial-mind is active/consciousness is attached to it - and simply being aware of this can often transcend partial mind ... which I've noticed (very recently, like *today*) ....
.... either extends in time-concept ("I should have done that!"; "I wonder if I should do this?" - with the "general stress" - low-grade or high-grade that is part and parcel of such thought-feelings) -- so allowing awareness to be here, now dissolves the "time shaft" as Nithyananda calls them.
... or constricts in space-concept ... the small-feeling "little me" feels like it's "me" against the world, or that "I may not get" or "I need to get" or "I may lose" .... and allowing clear-awareness to *expand* to it's natural spacious, here, now dissolves the "space-clench" ... as Kirtanman calls them.
Recently though (to answer your question) .... there's probably been twelve hours of doubtlessness for every brief moment of experienced doubt ... a nice ratio.
And ... the brief moments of identification with doubt-thought are seen as emanating from the thought-me-idea ... and released, per the technique(s)/recognition mentioned above.
Along with the recognition that such moments are just the consciousness of not-knowing the perfection ... as opposed the consciousness, in clear-awareness, of being-knowing the perfection (wholeness).
Full knowing as "I Am" is much more the knowing of being the experiencing of the spectrum of Allness-Unity to Specific-Diversity and Back Again - ever-flowing .... ever-new .... much more a living, unbound fountain of life-awareness ... than a snapshot of such a fountain; much more living, unbound process-movement than "thing" or specific state.
As the saying goes:
"One minute a buddha, one minute a sentient being."
And "I" or "I Am" is as good a name for pure awareness as any ... because, even if there's not a "thought I" ... there's an inherent sense of awareness *being* the experiencer ... yet which "sense of I" doesn't conflict with teachings about no-self, either -- thought-doctrines are ultimately partial - the "Tao which can be spoken of is not the Tao."
As far as Doubt & Don't Know go .....
"Hm."
Don't know.
Actually ... what I "don't know" is if I understand the question fully ... so I'll attempt an answer ... and if it seems, *by* the answer, that I didn't "get" the question .... please help clarify, if possible ....
In the meantime:
Cessation of Doubt as a "hallmark" of enlightenment (referring to the teachings - which seem key in certain traditions - yet are not discussed much - hence my posting about "cessation of doubt" here, in hope that it might be helpful) .... is used as a benchmark of confirmation of awakening in certain traditions, and/or acceptance into the highest, closest levels of initiation .... because it is a sign that identification has shifted from the thought-me, to clear-awareness.
Cessation of Doubt as a *practice* is tied to the fact that as clear-awareness informs Jnana{Knowing}-subjectivity / Kriya{Action}-objectivity .... so accurate understanding and realization-oriented actions - inform the opening into knowing true nature to be clear awareness.
More simply put: hesitation-free action(s) in any/all areas of life only helps realization.
Hesitation/Doubt not only occludes realization - it indicates that thought-mind has gotten a foothold/"foot in the door" - and is exploiting the opportunity for all it's worth.
The solution?
Dissolve the thought-me by collapsing time-concept into presence or expanding space-clench into spaciousness .... and/or simply turn attention away from the hesitation and move/act intensely.
It's a lot more likely that realization-delaying concepts will persist by allowing hesitation to remain ... than by acting directly/intensely ... even if that action proves to be non-ideal.
This is a principle that I didn't get for a LONG time - and until very recently (another little clarity per the grace of clear-awareness).
Here's a link to an article by a Kabbalah-related blogger, who I thought put the pragmatic side of it very well -- Article Covering Some Kabbalah Views on Being Proactive.
Basically: the energy of proactivity and action is the energy of creation -- as whatever level of consciousness is being utilized.
Proactivity in terms of objective action (which inherently neutralizes doubt - at least during the actual instances of proactivity/activity) in the manifested/physical realm is a bit like steering a car ... a little action here seems to re-direct a whole lot of more subtle, "under the surface" energies.
One of the main points though, is:
ALL of this (Cessation of Doubt, specifically) is cyclical/bi-directional ... Cessation of Doubt is both a quality of clear-awareness .... and a method for facilitating the knowing of self as clear-awareness, by practicing it.
Blog Excerpt:
"While not necessarily spiritual men, Donald Trump, Bill gates, Warren Buffet, Steven Jobs and Sam Walton didn’t wait around to react to the markets and to opportunities; they made their own. They were proactive. They went out to create things, about a trillion dollars worth of things. They are not G-d. They are not supermen. They are just men being proactive, and that’s just in only one area of their lives.
If they can do it, why not you?
You have so many more spiritual tools available to you than they did. Don’t let doubt get in your way. Being proactive means not allowing any time for doubts to creep in. Just do it and do it and do it. Be like G-d. Or if you want money, lots of it, be like Warren Buffet.
There are 6 extremities and creating financial wealth is only one extremity. It’s what you do with that wealth and how you treat people along the way that makes someone spiritual.
Obama didn’t become President by waiting around to be asked. He is the consummate proactive person. And while I don’t agree with much of what he’s doing, he has continued being proactive and nonstop in his actions so far while President, not leaving room for the darkness to distract and sidetrack him.
It’s only while I’m writing that I’m actually creating. If I stop and think and ponder and research for 5 weeks and then write for 5 hours, I’m still only creating for 5 hours."
Regarding Not-Knowing .... it depends what kind of not-knowing you're referring to; if it's something that can possibly be confused with doubt .. it sounds as though thought-mind may be focusing on the sense that there *is* something *to* know - and has doubts about whether it knows enough (?), etc.
Does that sound like what you're asking?
In that case, I'd say that the not-knowing and doubt are both "symptoms" of identification with a thought-me ... which can be neutralized as described above in the short-term/present-moment ... and/or which will ultimately be dissolved via the effects of continued practices (it can't "not be" -- when partial-self/thought-me goes ... hesitation, doubt and not-knowing go, too.)
However, there's a whole other level of not-knowing .... "good not-knowing" - pure potentiality without fixation; clear-awareness without thinking there's value to "having information" - to knowledge.
As the Shiva Sutras say, in the second sutra of the first section:
"Jnanam Bandhah" - Knowledge is Bondage.
Knowing (oneself as the clear-awareness of reality), however, is Liberation.
Not-Knowing (anything limited) is the same Liberation - with a different description.
Christian mysticism covers this nicely is the famous text "Cloud of Unknowing".
Adyashanti is fond of saying that he knows so much LESS now than he did before enlightenment/awakening.
True knowing .... of the "know the truth and the truth will set you free variety" .... is much more like "being" than it is like "having information about".
Why?
Because only limited mind can "have" anything.
In clear awareness, knower-knowing-known all appear as display in the one field of clear-awareness.
Ditto non-knower/not-knowing/not-known.
There's also the not-knowing of perfection I referred to in another thread - which can sync up (definition-wise) with "doubt", from another angle.
Example: today, I did have a moment of thought-doubt (I can't even remotely remember what "about", nor care to - it's dream-memory now, anyway) ... and saw through it, per recent experiencing of clear-awareness ... because clear-awareness doesn't experience doubt.
So, there was momentary identification with a limited me-thought, which generated a doubt-thought ... which was promptly neutralize by expanding space-clench/thought-clench into clear-awareness .... which simultaneously brought awareness out of time-concept, and into reality.
It's like an "Ahhhhh" (<- pleasurable sigh) ... originating as an infinitely small point in the heart .... and expanding into infinity in a brief moment, happily dissolving boundaries, concepts and limitation as it goes.
Such a simple yet powerful teaching/practice - one there's deep gratitude for receiving-offering-sharing.
I hope this helps; the opportunity to converse, answer, ask, share is always helpful to me, and a genuine joy ..... and truly and deeply appreciated.
Intending Awakening for All,
Kirtanman |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2009 : 11:42:41 AM
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Thanks Kirtanman
to me it's either we know or we don't know - in between these two is doubt.
It's a bit like Byron Katie's work. The "is it true" question is answered yes or no, no maybe's, no room for doubt.
it can be just a matter of perspective. We can be like the businessman or woman who decides to be decisive and in good management practice will make a decision about something, even at the risk of being wrong, because often any decision is better than being indecisive or doubtful.
It's also like living with samyama. When something arises, if we don't know what is going on, acknowledge we don't know and drop it into the silence. If we start doubting and mulling over it, we are out of the flow and into suffereing.
So to me there is knowing and not knowing, the latter of which is far more prevalent than the first, in my case
I don't claim to be like this all the time, by any means, and I appreciate your perspectives on it, and any more you might have.
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littlejerry
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2009 : 8:01:55 PM
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| HUM... a thought can be many things recognizing them seems important whether its good or bad... it just means your mind and body are not at peace. I assume anyway... if you have thoughts and images... no matter what they are mind and body are not at peace. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2009 : 10:42:10 PM
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Haha....am just seeing this for the first time Kirtanman.....Love it!
When my two friends and I were writing "The Book of Zi" one of the "sins" was "hesitation".
"Hesitation is a sin." Chapter 3:12 The Book of Zi
I don't really believe in "sins" anymore, but I still see hesitation as "not living in the moment".
"Flow like water" Chapter 5:3 The Book of Zi
Love,
Carson |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2009 : 11:01:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Haha....am just seeing this for the first time Kirtanman.....Love it!
"Hesitation is a sin." Chapter 3:12 The Book of Zi
I don't really believe in "sins" anymore, but I still see hesitation as "not living in the moment".
"Flow like water" Chapter 5:3 The Book of Zi
Love,
Carson
I'm not sure about this Zi sutra...."hesitation is a sin". I don't believe in sin either but I do believe in ignorance...
But I do like the "flow like water sutra".
Sometimes water hesitates as it flows around an obstacle...
I think pausing sometimes when you get excited and not saying or doing something that can hurt somebody (or yourself) is very beneficial (for me at least)...
Is there anybody here that never wanted a "do over"?
(This is the third edit...)
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Edited by - machart on Sep 16 2009 11:34:21 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2009 : 11:04:31 PM
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Delving deeply into yoga of knowledge that I am now, from an entirely fresh perspective, it is helpful to know what is the basic language which serves as the entrance to freedom (aka non-duality).
"Neither reach for nor release being or non-being."
The above statement (notice how my words are pointing up) points to the freedom zone, and when contemplated is a deep meditation.
It is our desire to know and to experience which lies at the root of our problem, ignorance.
Doubt in this context is synonymous with fear, fear that we do not know, fear that our desire will not be satisfied. The other side of this fear is hope. The fear that the desired knowledge will not obtain or that the feared knowledge will.
"Neither reach for nor release being or non-being," is basic to the elimination of doubt, because it dispels the fundamental ignorance that knowledge is "real" (in either some absolute or nihilistic sense).
"Reach" is our desire for knowledge of any sort. "Release" is our aversion to indefiniteness. "Being" and "Non-being" are our habits of imputing a mistaken sense of "reality," "real," "time" or "truth" on a purely relative and indefinite relationship with the world which is nothing other than our own mind (which, when investigated, can not be seen, like in the sense of an eye, yet, the visual field is borderless and dimensionless).
So don't reach and formulate the names and conventions. Don't release what is observed as if it weren't there. Don't impute a being as if "being" were anything more than a tag, or impute non-being where clearly you are interacting with the world.
What I'm saying is there there is a mode of expression of yoga that transcends history, dogma and geography, yet maintains the important lessons and meanings of the past, namely, the method to cut the root of ignorance and liberate one's mind from the shackles of doubt. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 16 2009 11:17:05 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2009 : 11:30:06 PM
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Hey Machart.....
quote:
Originally posted by machart
I'm not sure about this Zi sutra....
I don't stand by it either.....it was written over a decade ago and a lot has changed for me since then. A lot. I only posted the above because Kirtanman's post reminded me of this. I am not saying I actually believe that "hesitation is a sin". I actually said that I don't believe in sins anymore.....cause I don't.
I do still agree with "flowing like water" though.
Love,
Carson |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2009 : 11:42:08 PM
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Agree with you 100%!
You and K-man are all about the LOVE now...I'm still working on my bad habits ...one of them is being overly critical... |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2009 : 11:47:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by machart
You and K-man are all about the LOVE now...
What else is there?
quote:
Originally posted by machart
I'm still working on my bad habits ...one of them is being overly critical...
You obviously have "seen" this though, so you're already working through it. It will be nothing but a "dream-memory" (as K-man calls it) soon.
Lots of Love
Carson |
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slenten
23 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2009 : 1:12:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
What I'm saying is there there is a mode of expression of yoga that transcends history, dogma and geography, yet maintains the important lessons and meanings of the past, namely, the method to cut the root of ignorance and liberate one's mind from the shackles of doubt.
Yes, there is a method and it is Advaita Vedanta. Yoga is useful for purification. A mature, qualified aspirant can apply the methods of Vendanta to Self-enquiry which will produce Knowledge/Enlightenment.
It has been refined and perfected by a legion of sages and saints. |
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slenten
23 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2009 : 1:22:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Cessation of doubt.
Cessation of hesitation.
Yes, cessation of doubt about scriptural veracity, but doubt is a useful tool of the intellect. Very serious doubts are raised when
the names of avaricious capitalists are mentioned in the context of
enlightenment.
Yes, self-enquiry must continue without hesitation but we must hesitate when effort veers away into kabalistic numerology.
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Enlightenment? Without a Doubt!
