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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Apr 24 2009 :  10:43:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hey All,

From the "Credit Where Credit is Due" Dept. ...



Quantum Physics is beginning to do a credible job of catching up with verifiable yogic wisdom.

Check out the Quantum Enigma web site, re: the new book "Quantum Enigma - Physics Encounters Consciousness".

And as you may know, the quantum physics/spirituality connection is sometimes kicked about in a somewhat pseudo-science-y way.

This (link above) is not that; not at all.

"Quantum Enigma - Physics Encounters Consciousness" is a new book on the undeniable physics-consciousness connection.

It is written by two university professors of physics -- and is published by Oxford University Press, one of the more respected and credible publishers of scientific and academic information on the planet.

It is designed for the general public, and makes the same points that yogic wisdom has been making for several millenia:

Consciousness is primary; matter is secondary.

Every few centuries .... there are a few catalytic factors which create a fundamental paradigm shift in how life and the world are perceived and experienced.

A few hundred years ago, it was the thinking of scientists like Copernicus and Galileo ... and most significantly, Newton.

The Newtonian paradigm held sway for centuries, until just about a hundred years ago ... when scientists like Planck, Schrodinger, Bohr, and Einstein produced the theory they absolutely did *not* want to promote .... but which (as of now) close to a hundred years of experimental verification cannot deny:

Quantum Physics.

The revolution brought about by Copernicus, Galileo & Newton was fundamental and global in its effects; staggering, in terms of its reach.

The revolution brought about by Planck, Schrodinger, Bohr and Einstein even more so.

Staggering, yes -- and -- as a tiny raindrop meeting the ocean, in comparison to this one; to this revolution ..... physics encounters consciousness/ consciousness encounters physics.

You do know who the catalyst is this time, yes?

Yup.

We Are.

Open Heart, Dive In, Be Home ....

Kirtanman

Edited by - Kirtanman on Apr 24 2009 10:47:28 PM

CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Apr 24 2009 :  11:06:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Awesome....I can't wait to get to work on Monday so I can look at the website! (stupid crappy OS9.2.2 home computer Haha). Thanks for sharing KMan.... It's about time science started to catch up to Yoga

Love,
Carson
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YogaIsLife

641 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2009 :  03:45:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit YogaIsLife's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Great stuff!
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Jo-self

USA
225 Posts

Posted - May 07 2009 :  11:44:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit Jo-self's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the book reference, of course. Its great that people on this forum bother to recommend what they think would be interesting or helpful.

I was going to try to get this book, but then I started reading the reviews and the sample pages. Did not seem really about the subject of consciousness. Just a very good pop Quantum Physics introduction. We already have tons of those.

quote:

http://quantumenigma.com/reviews-our-responses/


Except in summary toward the end, the book does not, as the subtitle might suggest, posit anything about the nature of consciousness, the great mystery now being explored by neuroscientists and philosophers, among others. Instead it examines comprehensively the paradoxical consequences that abound in the Copenhagen Interpretation of classical quantum mechanics—specifically, the notion that conscious observation appears necessary in order to transform the superposition of disparate quantum states into the immutable reality of common experience.


And, even that I don't think sounds correct. I thought I read that you can have a mechanical sensor that would randomly measure an elementary particle, and that would "fix" its state. You could even write a computer program to control the sensor, and we all know that is not conscious.

The Mermin review is more in depth, and I think he even read the book unlike many of the others. Beware of reviewers who only read the jacket covers.
quote:
N. David Mermin, emeritus professor of Physics at Cornell University


So I would call this a fine but flawed presentation of quantum mechanics for the general reader. The flaw is in the one-sided and misleading (or at least ambiguous) treatment of the role of conscious perception in quantum physics.


Of course, read the author's rebuttal to this one, very interesting.

-- jo-self (skeptic, but hopeful)





Edited by - Jo-self on May 09 2009 10:37:29 AM
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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - May 09 2009 :  10:26:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Jo-self

Thanks for the book reference, of course. Its great that people on this forum bother to recommend what they think would be interesting or helpful.

I was going to try to get this book, but then I started reading the reviews and the sample pages. Did not seem really about the subject of consciousness. Just a very good pop Quantum Physics introduction. We already have tons of those.

quote:

http://quantumenigma.com/reviews-our-responses/


Except in summary toward the end, the book does not, as the subtitle might suggest, posit anything about the nature of consciousness, the great mystery now being explored by neuroscientists and philosophers, among others. Instead it examines comprehensively the paradoxical consequences that abound in the Copenhagen Interpretation of classical quantum mechanics—specifically, the notion that conscious observation appears necessary in order to transform the superposition of disparate quantum states into the immutable reality of common experience.


And, even that I don't think sounds correct. I thought I read that you can have a mechanical sensor that would randomly measure an elementary particle, and that would "fix" its state. You could even write a computer program to control the sensor, and we all know that is not conscious.

The Mermin review is more in depth, and I think he even read the book unlike many of the others. Beware of reviewers who only read the jacket covers.
quote:
N. David Mermin, emeritus professor of Physics at Cornell University


So I would call this a fine but flawed presentation of quantum mechanics for the general reader. The flaw is in the one-sided and misleading (or at least ambiguous) treatment of the role of conscious perception in quantum physics.


Of course, read the author's rebuttal to this one, very interesting.

-- jo-self (skeptic, but hopeful)




I read it; I liked it - I found it useful - and actually found it far more useful than other "pop quantum physics" books - but of course YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).

What I like about it is:

The authors are "practicing quantum physicists" who've worked in the real world ... and have now returned to academia as physics professors.

They point out that while quantum physics has no choice but to acknowledge the amazing influence and presence of consciousness - that many physicists (like one of the reviewers you cite?) want to sweep the "consciousness thing" under the rug.

And, regardless of what physicists think they know, and/or what limited-mind reasoning or logic thinks it can ascertain --- yogically, we know that everything is consciousness and appears in consciousness.

Even that assertion is logical in its own way:

What has ever appeared outside of consciousness?

What, therefore, can be made of anything other than consciousness - flashes of light appearing/not-appearing in awareness and/or the electrical signals and chemical processes in brain-mind, as converted from the stimuli of the senses?

No robot-reading or instrument creates quantum-collapse from super-position ... the meeting with *consciousness* creates the specificity - the collapse - the possible into the actual - the measurement - the Maya.

Until consciousness reviews the measurement ... who knows if it happened, or how it happened?

I like the simplicity with which the authors outline the experimental verities of quantum physics ... and the open-ended questions they pose.

Quantum Physics books are usually written by physicists (way too boring and/or mathematical for the general reader) ... or pop-spiritualists, who think anything with the word "quantum" in it, somehow justifies their new age philosophy-du-jour.

I found this book to have a readable, interesting and potentially useful "middle way" approach.

My "two cents" - thanks for the comments!

Kirtanman
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Jo-self

USA
225 Posts

Posted - May 12 2009 :  09:24:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit Jo-self's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Kirtanman:

Sounds good enough. If I have access to it I will try to read it too. I like when they speculate and go way out, just be honest about it.

When I learn a little more I will write a book on M-Theory and Enlightenment: How to use String Theory to jump into the Heaven Brane. That should generate some good going-out-to-dinner money. Just kidding.

-- jo-self

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Jo-self

USA
225 Posts

Posted - May 23 2009 :  12:57:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Jo-self's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
About that consciousness viewing the collapse. I'm still thinking about that when I get a chance. Found an interesting paper that mentions it. This paper is on Free Will. Free Will is, of course, a scientific/philosophical quagmire.

quote:
from http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/...604079v1.pdf
We first dismiss the idea, still current in popular accounts although long discounted by most physicists, that a conscious mind is necessary for reduction. It should suffice to say that there has never been any evidence for this opinion, which arose only from the difficulty of understanding the reduction, but has never helped to solve that problem. The evidence against it is the obvious Concordance Problem— if reduction is in the mind of the observer, how does it come about that the reductions produced by different observers are the same? This problem is particularly acute for our proposed type of experiment, in which the fact that one observer is on Earth and the other on Mars causes relativistic difficulties.



Anyway, I came across the paper reference from reading this blog entry of Professor Steve Hsu.

Note that "free will" as discussed in science is a superset of what is generally discussed regarding "free will", very complicated issues about esoteric physics stuff. And, also, that some theorist argue that there isn't any 'free will'. Weird. For example:

quote:
from Gerard ’t Hooft, ON THE FREE-WILL POSTULATE IN QUANTUM MECHANICS, http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/...701097v1.pdf

In short, one cannot modify the present without also modifying the past (and, of course, the future). Can one modify the past in such a way that, at the present, only the setting of our measuring device are modified, but not the particles and spins we wish to measure? Can we modify our settings without modifying the wave functions of the particles approaching us? This is the question we address, in particular in Section 5. ‘Free will’, meaning a modification of our actions without corresponding modifications of our past, is impossible. In chapter 5, we will further address the practical consequences of this ‘absence of free will’, which we claim to be much less drastic than often implicated.



I don't know if there is. Doesn't seem to be sometimes, especially when one is in the Flow, everything just happens, assuming ownership is so un-sane. Could fry one's brain trying to fathom it. Better to just smell the flowers. :)

Free Will has been discussed on the AYP forums of course, like here.


-- jo-self




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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - May 23 2009 :  3:14:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Heavy stuff.

quote:
Could fry one's brain trying to fathom it. Better to just smell the flowers. :)


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