|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 4:09:41 PM
|
Well, it seems like a strange question but I am trying my best to formulate it the best I can.
In all the lore of Yoga and other spiritual traditions we talk about the Truth and the illusion, the ego and the Self or Being, the mind and Pure Awareness.
Since growing up I was always subtle aware of one thing - that whatever is is.
You would think that this is a truism but really, is it seen as such?
I don't think so. Otherwise we wouldn't talk in the terms used above...the duality.
In other words: why do we have to "liberate" ourselves? Why do we have to get rid of the "illusion"? If the truth IS, where is it hiding? Behind what?
The truth is all that there is, is it not?
Then, where does the so-called "illusion", "ego" or "mind" hide?
Perhaps we we are just trying to get rid of what we don't want (maybe "unhappiness" that we call "illusion") and try to achieve a beneficial ("happy") state?
Just throwing the questions out there for any sincere seeker.
Hope I am not sounding confused. Let's say this is a deep existential unsettling I have been carrying with me since I was born (probably before even!). I even remember being slightly angry with "God" for making things in this manner - hiding himself and the truth from my/our sight...
That is one reason I was suprised when I found people engaged in "seeking the truth" (as I believed I saw it everywhere I looked!), and even more suprised when I saw that there were "practices" one could do to see the truth more clearly!
Paradoxically, I always have been a seeker in my own, individual, way. But instead of "spiritual practices" I was using logic, the senses, and reasoning (as you probably can see from this post  ). Well, these were the only "tools" I had readily available - my self. And they came instinctively.
Don't know where all of this will take me (the integration of "spiritual practices" in the quest) but the longing for THE truth is always there (has always been) and does not seem to want to go...Thanks to AYP I don't think anymore this is a bad and dangerous thing, and I found a framework or platform that enables me to have a more harmonious and systematic approach, far from the dangers I threw myself blindly in in the past.
Thanks for listening! |
|
|
tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 8:12:03 PM
|
Hi :)
Well, these things are concepts which enable you to see the situation in a certain way, from a certain perspective. So in that sense, this is mind-made interpretation, a fabrication. If you think it's useful, if you think it serves the purpose it's supposed to serve, use it :)
On the other hand, we can't really deny or reason ourselves out of our own evolution and transformation. That is real and it's happening.
What you're doing is self-inquiry. The result of that is mainly dependent on how much inner silence there is. So again, cultivating that has first priority :)
Of course, ultimately, from the nondual point of view, everything is truth and you are already liberated in this moment. Because what you are is truth itself :) And practices lead there - towards realizing this, towards consciously living the truth :) |
 |
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2009 : 06:21:03 AM
|
Hi tadeas and thanks
quote:
What you're doing is self-inquiry. The result of that is mainly dependent on how much inner silence there is. So again, cultivating that has first priority :)
Yes, I think this is it. In fact I been doing self-inquiry since I was born or, better, since I remember being consciously thinking, although I didn't call it any name...what I can say from experience then is that self-inquiry on its own can be a very powerful and also potentially disruptive practice, depending on the agressiveness of the inquiry. I guess this is where inner silence comes in, providing a stable ground for all the rest to be more safely explored. At least that is my hope! The proof is in the pudding!
quote:
If you think it's useful, if you think it serves the purpose it's supposed to serve, use it :)
Well, yes, sometimes I think it does. Maybe it's my nature. Maybe different people have different paths. Maybe mine is inquiry, by nature. But then again, and hopefully, meditation can be of great help here by allowing me to relax into a deeper silence and stability.
quote:
On the other hand, we can't really deny or reason ourselves out of our own evolution and transformation. That is real and it's happening.
Yes, I agree that "transformation" is happening. that is part of life, it's everywhere around us, all the time. I notice clearly, for example, how different I feel before and after yoga, as I notice how different I feel before and after going for a good run. My system changes and I see things differently. Maybe some states are more prone to "seeing the truth" than others, although I am not so sure about that...I think truth permeates everything. But indeed there seems to be an apparent veil that hides it from us...
quote:
Of course, ultimately, from the nondual point of view, everything is truth and you are already liberated in this moment. Because what you are is truth itself :) And practices lead there - towards realizing this, towards consciously living the truth :)
Yes, I guess this is it... |
|
|
|
Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2009 : 08:37:07 AM
|
| well i seek coz i'm terribly afraid of death. |
|
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2009 : 08:48:32 AM
|
Hi maximus and thanks!
quote:
well i seek coz i'm terribly afraid of death.
So, you are running away from death? Have you ever experienced death? If you have, how was it?
Just some questions |
|
|
|
miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2009 : 11:38:02 AM
|
Hi YIL.
"In other words: why do we have to "liberate" ourselves? Why do we have to get rid of the "illusion"? If the truth IS, where is it hiding? Behind what?
The truth is all that there is, is it not?
Then, where does the so-called "illusion", "ego" or "mind" hide? "
I ask my self this very often.Lets the experts talk about this...
"Don't know where all of this will take me"
I ask my self this also,but its not a question of arriving to some place,its a question of stop seeking a place to arrive.All you want is here,now,complete...then i ask to my self the last question (why cant we perceive it now)...but i cant answer that question...
"the longing for THE truth is always there"
You are a lucky person
Maximus,if you want to talk about you fear to death,it wiil be a pleassure listening and helping you..
PS-wHo can i use the "quotes" in this forum like you do?Im tired of copy and paste option... |
Edited by - miguel on Apr 23 2009 11:39:50 AM |
|
|
|
Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2009 : 2:46:40 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
So, you are running away from death? Have you ever experienced death? If you have, how was it?
Yes I have, and it was terrible. Well I don't consciously remember it but the memory of it buried deep down in my soul's memory. I'm an old soul who after facing many births & deaths, can tolerate it no more. And I don't see Yoga or inner silence by itself liberating me for it is my desires for wordly things that binds me to rebirth. Yoga only helps me understand these things clearly and motivate me to work towards severing the ties of bondage. |
|
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 12:22:03 AM
|
quote:
In other words: why do we have to "liberate" ourselves? Why do we have to get rid of the "illusion"? If the truth IS, where is it hiding? Behind what?
We only have to liberate ourselves if we believe we do.
In a sense there is nothing to liberate, we already are what Is, pure awareness of being. If however we believe and think we are the things we experience: thoughts, emotions, ideas, concepts, forms, an "i" or "me", etc. we suffer until we realize we are not those things.
When I believe in something that isn't true or isn't reality, I hurt.
The good news is that pain will show us that our limiting ideas about ourselves, others and the world around us causes our suffering and eventually when we recognize this we will let go of what hurts.
It's the great game of life, see through the illusion and understand what you really are.
quote:
The truth is all that there is, is it not?
I experience things that aren't true all the time, but so far they are all in my mind.
quote:
Then, where does the so-called "illusion", "ego" or "mind" hide?
Mind/ ego doesn't hide in my experience, it exists in the past and the future. It exists in concepts like: I am a father, I am so and so, I am angry, I will get there, I am bad, good, succeeding, suffering etc.
It comes to life through repetition of a thought, here's the formula for suffering: think a painful thought, feel the pain, repeat, think a painful thought, feel the pain, repeat and on and on quickly enough so we can't experience pure beingness for long enough to feel as we are: love... peace....serenity of Being....
our attention jumps from one painful thought to another in quick succession or the illusion comes undone. Rest long enough in nothingness and be free.
quote:
Perhaps we we are just trying to get rid of what we don't want (maybe "unhappiness" that we call "illusion") and try to achieve a beneficial ("happy") state?
Sounds about right to me. Unhappiness will lead us home as long as we are willing to give it up. It can be fun after all. |
|
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 04:58:04 AM
|
Hi Anthem, thanks!
quote:
I experience things that aren't true all the time, but so far they are all in my mind.
You see, for me this is impossible. Nothing is not true, otherwise you would not experience them. Everything that exists IS truth, it can't be otherwise for me. Thoughts and emotions are just that - thoughts and emotions. Energy. And as such they can hurt or not hurt, the same way bumping your leg against a hard surface hurts but a caress is plaseant.
But what makes sens to me is this that you say: "In a sense there is nothing to liberate, we already are what Is, pure awareness of being. If however we believe and think we are the things we experience: thoughts, emotions, ideas, concepts, forms, an "i" or "me", etc. we suffer until we realize we are not those things."
And probably that is the art - seeing thoughts for what they are and seeing ourselves for what we are. Libertaion
But again, for me, there is not 'truth' and 'untruth'. That is a limited view that will be transcended as well, eventually. Otherwise we are still in duality, which, from logic and from the experience of realised beings, it's not reality at the its most absolute.
|
|
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 06:11:24 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Maximus
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
So, you are running away from death? Have you ever experienced death? If you have, how was it?
Yes I have, and it was terrible. Well I don't consciously remember it but the memory of it buried deep down in my soul's memory. I'm an old soul who after facing many births & deaths, can tolerate it no more. And I don't see Yoga or inner silence by itself liberating me for it is my desires for wordly things that binds me to rebirth. Yoga only helps me understand these things clearly and motivate me to work towards severing the ties of bondage.
Hi maximus and thanks for sharing.
I hope you don't mind me playing with your ideas a little bit. I can understand that what you feel is hurting to you but I am just throwing these at you:
- do you know, with absolute certainty, that the terrible experiences you had, and that are buried deep in your subconscious, happened when you were dead?
- and are you sure, 100%, that the same experiences will happen again after you die again?
- if you are not sure of this, what happens if you believe the opposite (if you can, just for one moment), i.e. that after you die you will have a very blissful, wonderful, experience?
Don't try to answer with your mind. Stop for a moment and search within you for the answer, with no expectations. Thanks for participating! |
|
|
|
Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 07:01:25 AM
|
Yes there is nothing worse than death. I become blind,deaf,dumb,breath lose everything. With my attachments still existing for the world, I'd be a hungry ghost and out of competition with other ghosts desperately plunge in the field/forced by my actions & desire to take birth when some man and woman are copulating, go through a birth and oh crap, I'd be again be a baby with absolutely no memory of my previous existence. In my life the first thought I remember is I was asking myself "How did I come here in this world and what for?" so I'd start there all over there again.
As terrible as this sounds, it is worse. For it is out of common language usage I say "I" will be reborn, but actually I- the sum total of all I identify with, die, then the casuality of my actions and desires causes another birth (of I-don't-yet-know-what), not "my" rebirth so it is total annihileation that I'm subject to at death.
No I have not the slightest reason to believe it will be a blissful experience. Nothing more dangerous to believe. |
|
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 08:22:34 AM
|
hmmm...but maximus, really, is it not really a belief?
quote:
For it is out of common language usage I say "I" will be reborn, but actually I- the sum total of all I identify with, die, then the casuality of my actions and desires causes another birth (of I-don't-yet-know-what), not "my" rebirth so it is total annihileation that I'm subject to at death.
If it is total anihilation that 'you' are subject of at death, how come 'you' are here talking about how 'you' went through all those painful experiences? Who was there to know you were experiencing all that? Was it not 'you'? And if it was (because otherwise you could not tell us here about it), did you really die?
I agree with one thing though - it is the desire for the world (and the attachments you have to those desires/fears) that will bring you back. That is the same in all of life (in all of existence really) that desire creates action. Desire drives, makes us move. If you are in peace with what you have and are right now you are solving all your problems. That is living in the moment, not in some fear of a 'future pain' based on 'past experiences'. Once you accept you do not know what is going to happen, you open up infinite possibilities. You are reborn each moment.
And notice this. You say "Yes there is nothing worse than death.". But I heard many other people say "death is the most wonderful experience one can have". Who is right and who is wrong? Aren't we all fabricating our own experiences? It is beyond all belief that you will find peace. That happens only once you start desbilieving any belief. That's liberation, is it not? Dare to imagine... |
Edited by - YogaIsLife on Apr 24 2009 08:24:25 AM |
|
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 09:01:23 AM
|
quote:
You see, for me this is impossible. Nothing is not true, otherwise you would not experience them. Everything that exists IS truth, it can't be otherwise for me. Thoughts and emotions are just that - thoughts and emotions. Energy. And as such they can hurt or not hurt, the same way bumping your leg against a hard surface hurts but a caress is plaseant.
But what makes sens to me is this that you say: "In a sense there is nothing to liberate, we already are what Is, pure awareness of being. If however we believe and think we are the things we experience: thoughts, emotions, ideas, concepts, forms, an "i" or "me", etc. we suffer until we realize we are not those things."
And probably that is the art - seeing thoughts for what they are and seeing ourselves for what we are. Libertaion
But again, for me, there is not 'truth' and 'untruth'. That is a limited view that will be transcended as well, eventually. Otherwise we are still in duality, which, from logic and from the experience of realised beings, it's not reality at the its most absolute.
Hi YIL,
We can bang our heads against the wall wrestling with what is true and what isn't or if it all is etc, but what does it matter in the end? Surely there is a "lie" in every "truth" and a truth in every lie.
When we believe things about reality to be a certain way, when we close our minds to all possibilities in everything, we suffer.
When we interpret what we see, hear, taste, touch or smell to be totally defining of any aspect of reality, we limit our selves and we suffer.
Just because someone is a jackass today doesn't mean they won't be a saint tomorrow. It's all open to interpretation, we can interpret things in a positive way and that seems to feel pretty good, certainly makes for a more enjoyable life than interpreting things in a negative way. Or we can recognize and accept the positive and negative in all things, including ourselves and open our minds to the infinite as it expresses everywhere within and without.
Needing to know if something is true or not will create suffering, perhaps it is both or neither, in the end it is what it Is. Accept the mind rather than trying to eradicate it. Or try to eradicate it, who knows it could make for some good learning. |
|
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 09:32:50 AM
|
Hi anthem,
I totally agree with all you say above. No argument with anything whatsoever.
quote:
We can bang our heads against the wall wrestling with what is true and what isn't or if it all is etc, but what does it matter in the end?
Maybe you don't understand that but I see a 'method to my madness'. It is like zen koans or something like that. There are riddles (including those about what is Truth or not Truth) that cannot be answered logically (i.e. with the mind). In this we agree. What probably we difer in is that you think this is a useless discussion and I see benefits in it. Including enlightenment. Why not?
I am not trying to 'convert' anybody nor looking for THE answer that would set my mind at ease, I'm just throwing what for me are important questions (at the deepest level) out there. They are questions burning at the very core of my being, and I think they are the fuel of my quest. Like you say "When we believe things about reality to be a certain way, when we close our minds to all possibilities in everything, we suffer." Exactly that. If you want to really know the truth about yourself and existence you have to be prepared to go all the way, it seems to me. Why not question everything then? If it is done from a point of establishment on the root of ourselves (inner silence) I think it can be a very beneficial and rewarding experience! I would dare say even joyful If it is not rooted in inner silence, I agree, it can be a very painful, desitegrating, experience.
But of course, each person has its own method, and that is ok. After all, the truth is everywhere |
|
|
|
Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 09:48:15 AM
|
quote:
If it is total anihilation that 'you' are subject of at death, how come 'you' are here talking about how 'you' went through all those painful experiences? Who was there to know you were experiencing all that? Was it not 'you'? And if it was (because otherwise you could not tell us here about it), did you really die?
Valid question. Yes it is true I'm subject to total anihilation. And all that gets anihilated is what I identify myself with all my life. The 'me' that has gone through innumerable births and deaths is something I don't identify with. If I did I can already say I'm an immortal but I'm can't. I personally think that the deep hate for death is communucated from the deep down entity to me rather than me feeling it from personal experience, as I didn't exist prior to this birth.
I also intuitively feel that the entity surviving death gets weakened by births and deaths and as the spirit's energy is continually drained outward, without help from the "outer man" to self-realize, it will one day lose its individuality and go through a "second death" and there is nothing more horrorful than that. |
|
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 10:29:07 AM
|
Hi YIL,
No argument from me, enjoy the ride. |
|
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 12:08:39 PM
|
Funny because I think Yogani described my own 'ride' in his latest online lesson pretty well ( http://www.aypsite.org/324.html ). It seems to be coming full circle. I was asking these questions ('natural self-inquiry') since I can remember but got really bad effects as I burned and struggled to answered them, at its peak of anguish (mind clashing against mind). Meditation gave me another ground to ask from and this questions truly arose spontaneously in me again recently, after years of trying to run away from them and even supressing them to avoid further suffering. They seem to want an answer and maybe now I am in a better position to address them again, thanks to the effects of meditation. It just feels all much more natural now and there is a much less sense of hurry, urgency, or pressure now...
and the ride continues on...
"We are wired for it. We simply must know the truth about life." - indeed it seems... |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
why don't the truth just is?
