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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 07:00:28 AM
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I just read AYP's last lesson on Self-Inquiry ( http://www.aypsite.org/321.html ) and I have to say Yogani did it again!  Really clear and down-to-earth, thumbs up. 
Furthermore it couldn't come in a more appropriate timing in my own life...working through suffering of the mind, etc. and very much wanting to go beyond suffering to the source of all and a REAL understanding. What yogani outlined there seems to me to be THE way to truly go beyond suffering. It also can relate to other systems/estern philosophies and discussions happening in the AYP forums (for example, this one on the emotional body and the best way to deal with pain: http://www.aypsite.org/321.html )
But I have a question. I still have a limited sense of the witness although I do believe I have glimpses of it now and then (and of course keep on cultivating it with daily meditation!). My question is for those that can abide in the witness and can see the projections of the mind and the senses for what they really are.
My question is: if pain is not 'ours' or 'us', where and why does it appear? I mean, there seems to be a cause for pain. For example, if I lose my lover I might experience emotional pain, so there seems to be a clear cause-effect mechanism here. Cause (losing lover) leads to effect (pain for lack of companion). Is this so?
I heard many masters say that all that happens in the casual plane is causeless and spontaneous. That is to say, things 'just' happen, spontaneously. In the same line of thought we are not, in a way, 'responsible' for what happens nor we have any 'free will' to change things because we did not make them happen in the first place (Here by 'we' I mean the witness, what we truly are in our essence).
So, if we ARE the unchanging witness, WHAT are the changing perceptions? How do they come about? why do they happen? WHAT or WHO has control over them?
I don't mean this as a philosophical question but as a direct understanding for people that abide in the witness and watch the transient nature of things. HOW and WHY and BY THE GRACE OF WHOM, in their view, things (feelings, emotions, thoughts) come and go? And, more improtantly, is there or is there not a causal nature to transient things and do we have any control over them?
As an example - a person experiences fear everytime he/she boards an aeroplane, therefore he/she can never go on an aeroplane as he/she will always experience fear...or, he/she can go on an aeroplane if he/she knows that the fear is not 'hers/his' nor what they really are. But why the hell does fear appears in the first place everytime he/she boards an aeroplane?? Is this to say suffering was caused by an habituation of identification with mind projections, and once that identification stops suffering ends? I mean, fear will still be there right, but it will lose its grip, is that it?...I guess it is a chicken and egg thing, a big mystery probably! We probably ARE cause AND effect! And neither
Thank you!  |
Edited by - YogaIsLife on Apr 03 2009 07:01:33 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 08:41:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
My question is: if pain is not 'ours' or 'us', where and why does it appear? I mean, there seems to be a cause for pain. For example, if I lose my lover I might experience emotional pain, so there seems to be a clear cause-effect mechanism here. Cause (losing lover) leads to effect (pain for lack of companion). Is this so?
Hi YIL,
I am going to try and explain this.. this understanding is new to me (getting clearer over the last few days).. so I may not be able to put it into words. So forgive me if I confuse you even more.
Karma belongs to the body mind. We are born in this body mind to go through certain experiences. But this body mind is not "us". There is this immovable, untouched, still awareness that is "us".. and the body mind is only a vehicle to realize this still awareness, the self (that is why it is called "self realization".. realizing the stillness is the self and not discovering I am this body mind and there is something called stillness somewhere out there.. then it would be called awareness discovery or something.. pardon my rambling ). The awareness is still, unchanged silence, and if there was no body mind, it could not be discovered. Unless there is movement, you don't know stillness. This has been explained using many models,the one I know best is the Shiva and Shakti, Shiva the stillness can only be realized by Shakti the movement.
At first in our path, awareness and body mind are so tightly bound together that it is almost impossible to separate the two, like milk.. the solids and liquids in milk are a homogenized mixture, hard to tell that the smooth liquid actually has solids mixed in it, but when you add and external agent like vinegar, the solids and liquids separate.. just like that, our awareness and body/mind appear as one, add meditation and other spiritual techniques, and you will slowly see the two separate.
If you ask anyone on this path "who are you?" are you this body? Well the body you had a year ago, is not the same body you have now.. every cell has been replaced. You can diet,work out, get plastic surgery done and change the way you look.. will you then not be you.. no.. you are still you. Are you your name? well you can change your name, but you will still be you.. Are you your profession? you can change your line of work but you will still exist.. so on.. So anyone on this path (and I am sure some who are not on this path) knows to some degree they are not this body mind.
As we continue on your path, we will soon see the awareness separating from the body/mind. We will clearly see we are the stillness.. at first just glimpses like you have written above, then slowly it will become very distinct. Then we will realize, our karma is unfolding like it is.. but our awareness does not care.. it is not touched by the outside world. That is why people say, "I am not doing anything, it is just happening to me". As people start identifying more with the awareness, their true nature, their association with the body mind starts to fall away and hence they say "they are not doing it.. the body mind is doing its thing.. not them (i.e. their awareness)."
So pain will appear when there is cause for pain, that is associated with our body/mind, the "me", but "I", the pure awareness will not be affected by this. This is the end of suffering. When we lose our loved one, we will feel pain, but we wont suffer. Pain and suffering are two words, that are put together as long as body/mind-awareness are together.. when body/mind-awareness separate (and you know that this is true, the two can separate, that is why you experience the witness state) then pain and suffering separate. Then you can be afraid to fly, but when you fly you will watch that you are afraid to fly, but you wont suffer because your body/mind is afraid to fly. Your body/mind has the karma of fear of flying.. that will play out but your witness, your awareness wont care.
Again, this is all very new to me.. I am getting this more each day, and I am really sorry if I have confused you in any way. |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 03 2009 09:11:19 AM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 09:10:03 AM
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Hi Shanti , thank you so much for jumping in and trying to answer this very tricky question. And really well done in my opinion.
Well, you ask - "If you ask anyone on this path "who are you?" are you this body?". And yes, I understand - we are not the body, nor teh name nor the profession. If you would ask me I would say I am the awareness. This is very clear to me and it always was, at different levels of conscioussness, since I was born really. But the difference between me and an "enlightened" person is that for me the awareness, that which sees, also feels, etc. I mean, the awareness feels the feelings, thinks the thoughts, perceives the perceptions. So, for me, awareness (that which I am) does change, or, at least, learns (hence the possibility of becoming "enlightenent" - that is a new understanding). So, it is not really immutable. Well, in a way it might be immutable and surely it is undestructuble (possibly it is all there ever was, is and will be ), but it clearly seems to have the ability to learn. Learn about itself, as you put above.
But still a mystery remains - if we are not the body/mind and we are all that there is (spirit), how come we (spirit) created matter? And how come it seperated itself from matter so it could be known? I mean, a lot of spiritual teachers say that the body/mind is just some set of clothes you wear. And I can understand this. But aren't we discarding too easily this 'veicule' we have? Where does it come from and what makes it work? Isn't it the same thing taht we are - infinite all-encompasing spirit? I guess is karma, as you say. But who created karma? we did apparently so we can know ourselves, is this it?! Sounds very simple and unbelievable in a way that the whole mystery of life can be so easily explained . But even if it is, it remains a wonderful mystery to be experienced.
Another aspect - why do awareness attaches to the body/mind in the beggining of our path anywey on purpose? If it is all-encopamsing and all-wise it needs nothing but itself. It had to become two to know itself, is this it?
So I guess bottom line is - be thankful for your pain as it allows you to fullfill your destiny - that might be happiness and the joy of knowing thyself! And more than that - watch the pain, it is a great teacher.
Sorry if I lost track of thoughts here and was a bit confused. My original question still holds - what and how is karma created? do we have any say on it or is it just a matter of choice between staying with it or getting out of the wheel? Why is it desirable to get out of the wheel? Well, the end of suffering is a very good motivator.
Just your opinions would be nice. I know this is a never-ending riddle, answered only in our own inner silence or unbounded awareness. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 09:39:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
My original question still holds - what and how is karma created? do we have any say on it or is it just a matter of choice between staying with it or getting out of the wheel? Why is it desirable to get out of the wheel? Well, the end of suffering is a very good motivator.
Just your opinions would be nice. I know this is a never-ending riddle, answered only in our own inner silence or unbounded awareness.
Well from where I am at this point..
Who creates karma? Your attachment to actions and conditioning.
Why is karma created? God only knows  . That's why they call it God's lila.. God's play.. we need to fall out of heaven to find heaven again.. if we did not discover the movement of the stillness.. we would never know stillness.. If you are never sad you would not know happiness.
How to get out?
To get out off the wheel.. drop the attachment to the actions, the lila, the play. How?.. meditate
And yes.. it's all a huge mystery.. we may only uncover a tiny part of it. But after a point it does not matter to know "why".. you just kick back and let the discovery happen and enjoy every new opening, revelation like a wide eyed child watching the colors and beauty of a butterfly emerge from a funny looking cocoon. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 10:02:36 AM
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Hi YIL....
I want to write a more in-depth response but I have a meeting to go to right away here and I am just going to write a quick response now and follow it up later perhaps.
Karma (IMO) exists because human beings have Free Will. Karma is the consequences for our actions....both positive and negative. If we did not have free will to act as we pleased there would be no karma.
Pain is caused by friction IMO. Emotional, mental, spiritual, and physical friction causes pain.
Physical pain is caused when there is excess physical friction.
Emotional pain is caused when our feelings fight with the reality of what Is....There is emotional friction when our feelings are different from what we wish they were.
Mental pain is caused when our thoughts are fighting with reality....There is mental friction when we chose to believe our thoughts that reality should be different then it is.
Spiritual pain is caused when choose to believe that there we should be somewhere we are not yet, on our spiritual journeys. Again, friction caused by fighting with the reality of what actually Is.
Sorry this is so blunt and short, but I gotta run for a bit now. Much love.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Apr 03 2009 10:05:50 AM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 10:08:33 AM
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quote:
But after a point it does not matter to know "why".. you just kick back and let the discovery happen and enjoy every new opening, revelation like a wide eyed child watching the colors and beauty of a butterfly emerge from a funny looking cocoon.
Yeah...
I find, paradoxically, that my spiritual journey is getting me to appreciate life even more. Is this possible? God's lila, God's play, it's seen as a wonderful playhouse, and every moment a blessing and an appreciation of such a gift.
From where I stand: it is not our attachments to actions that produce karma, karma was produced by ourselves for ourselves. Like you say, without movement, how would we know stillness? So, karma is produced so that we may grow, we may learn, we may know who we are, and, especially, experience who we are. So, from this poitn of view, I don't see karma by itself as "evil" or something that we need to strive to overcome. Karma would lead us to the end of the road, where karma is not needed anymore. But, liek the body, we are not it, but that does nto mean taht we shoudl not care for it and show our appreciation for the wonderful veicule that it is, whcih allows us to experience ourselves.
Yes, agreed - meditation is the key. We get to know we are the awareness. That brings us more apprecition for all of life and this wonderful mystery.
Right now I am learning to embrace pain. Not run away from it, nor indulge in it, but just acknowledging it and experience it. Just experience. A great teacher, pain. My karma produced it, I am thankful. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 10:14:36 AM
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Hi Carson, we cross-posted
quote:
Pain is caused by friction IMO. Emotional, mental, spiritual, and physical friction causes pain.
Physical pain is caused when there is excess physical friction.
Emotional pain is caused when our feelings fight with the reality of what Is....There is emotional friction when our feelings are different from what we wish they were.
Mental pain is caused when our thoughts are fighting with reality....There is mental friction when we chose to believe our thoughts that reality should be different then it is.
Spiritual pain is caused when choose to believe that there we should be somewhere we are not yet, on our spiritual journeys. Again, friction caused by fighting with the reality of what actually Is.
Yes, makes sense to me! It can be hard to deal with pain though, because we are attached to it. And it can be difficult to get dittached from pain. But again, meditation is the key - the simple just experiencing of whatever is, fully and with no resistance or labelling (labbeling=resistance). So, not to run away from pain (we can't really) nor indulging in it (creating dramas). Just experiencing it, i.e., acknowledging whatever IS.
thanks for chiming in my brother. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 10:43:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
I find, paradoxically, that my spiritual journey is getting me to appreciate life even more. Is this possible? God's lila, God's play, it's seen as a wonderful playhouse, and every moment a blessing and an appreciation of such a gift.
_/\_
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