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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 01 2009 : 6:45:22 PM
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Lord Jigten Sumgon taught that the Buddha's methods are built on the foundation of Hindu Yoga. Mahamudra, the ultimate tantric meditation is shared by Kashmir Shaivism and Tibetan Buddhism. Tantra is at the core free of any limitation or extreme. The Middle Way is both a view and a technique of uniting prana and apana at the heart chakra in Buddhism and Shaivism. Shiva and Shakti are the union of bliss and emptiness, wisdom and desire. Mahamudra view transcends labels, free of extremes, it is the movement the flutter of energy between states of external and internal, pure relative subjectivity. All the methods, tantras and yogas are all just dharma, the way it is. The Tandava.
We are the sprouting lotus buds and the sun. Those who grow the largest field will succeed based on motivation. Motivation is what will limit ultimate realization. If the motivation is to spread loving-kindness throughout all the worlds, starting with this one, and to take action to liberate all beings, then the realization will be like the Buddha, instead of just a great yogi. We have to be like Noah right now and promise to bring everyone onto the boat. It is not just our own freedom and liberation that is at stake, but the world.
We must begin all our practices with the right motivation: "May all beings benefit from the sadhana I will now commence." This motivation causes the mind energy to change, leading to profoundly swifter progress. We must ritualize it, chant it, sing it, scream it, dance it, make love with it, eat with it, everything. Right View Right Intention... Ecstatic Conductivity simultaneous to all...
OM Namaha |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Apr 01 2009 6:53:40 PM |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 12:19:44 AM
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| Very interesting. I just completed a two day mediation retreat with Swamiji Shankarananda who is a Kashmir Shaiva Guru. I'm very glad to learn about this since I consider myself a Buddhist. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 03:48:46 AM
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Hi Osel
I saw a documentary about Tibet recently and it spoke about when Buddhism was introduced to Tibet.
They described how Shamanism was the practice at the time in Tibet and how Buddhism was integrated with this Shamanism to form Tibetan Buddhism.
They said it was the influence of the Shamanic practices that introduced Tantra to Tibetan Buddhism.
Do you have a comment on this? |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 11:05:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Hi Osel
I saw a documentary about Tibet recently and it spoke about when Buddhism was introduced to Tibet.
They described how Shamanism was the practice at the time in Tibet and how Buddhism was integrated with this Shamanism to form Tibetan Buddhism.
They said it was the influence of the Shamanic practices that introduced Tantra to Tibetan Buddhism.
Do you have a comment on this?
This is not entirely accurate. Some Bon practices adopted the name Tantra and came within the Nyingma lineage. They did not actually adopt Indian tradition. They have a separate lineage. They remain Bon, but have added some practices from the Tantra tradition, like certain meditation techniques.
Other lineages have carefully preserved the heritage of Guru Padmasambhava, Nagarjuna, Tilopa, Naropa, Atisha, etc., etc. The first King of Tibet was from India. Tibetan Buddhism is really a misnomer. It is Indian Buddhism. All the texts, the tantra, the sutras, the practices, the deities, the mandalas, all originate from India and are unchanged.
Over the years, there have been many great Tibetan Yogis and saints who are venerated and worshiped. This is where the influence of Tibetan people comes in.
Very few people understand Buddhist or Indian tantra. It is kept in secrecy so many misunderstandings happen.
In reality Tibetan Buddhism is very closely related with the Shiva tantra tradition. Mount Kailash is also worshipped in Tibet, ever wonder why that is? My lama has a picture in his monk robes meditating with two Shiva sadhus in a cave with their trimurtis, covered in ash.
As I said, the differences are subtle between Buddhist and Shivaite Tantra.
My feeling is that the difference is motivation. Shivaite tradition motivation is self-realization. Buddhist tradition motivation is realization of the enlightenment of all beings. If this one motivation were adopted by all traditions, then I don't think there would be any important difference. My study of Shivaite Tantra tells me that in almost all respects our traditions are one.
It is about evolution of consciousness. The next step is recognition of our unity and responsibility for each other. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Apr 03 2009 11:23:25 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2009 : 03:37:00 AM
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Hi Osel
Thanks for the explanation, I can't really discuss this as I don't know much about the traditions and their history.
The influence of the Indian King in introducing pranayama etc makes sense.
From what I hear from a couple I know who practiced Tibetan Buddhism for a while, it has similarities to AYP pranayama spinal breathing, in that it focuses on the sushumna or central channel.
quote:
My feeling is that the difference is motivation. Shivaite tradition motivation is self-realization. Buddhist tradition motivation is realization of the enlightenment of all beings. If this one motivation were adopted by all traditions, then I don't think there would be any important difference. My study of Shivaite Tantra tells me that in almost all respects our traditions are one.
It is about evolution of consciousness. The next step is recognition of our unity and responsibility for each other.
Yes, I have come across this in Buddhism, where monks and nuns take a vow to help and save all sentient beings.
I must admit I get a bit edgey when I come across this, as it reminds me of someone having a "saviour complex" and going out into the world to "save" people and the world. In my view, this can be quite an egocentric way of working and it appears to me that if someone has the motive to save someone that they can be putting themselves above the other person in a superior way.
On the other hand, if one just works on oneself and gets to a place where one is living more out of the true self or the Dharma, then helping or saving people will no longer be a motive, instead it will just happen on its own as a natural consequence.
So, while you might see the motivation to save, as an advantage, I would see it possibly as the opposite |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2009 : 09:03:09 AM
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hi Sparkle the "saviour complex" that's an interesting way to look at it, it's kind of filled with self interest and really cz in the end aren't all our actions like that even the charitable ones and the ones related to our family and loved ones even things like protecting someone "we" love.
as you said, the thing doesn't really matter that much and it's best if we let it be and when the call for sharing comes than why not we share when we can cz in the end everyone's enlightenment is our own and vice versa.
so them bodhisatva's are really one of the most selfish people a person will ever meet.
even the world famous avatars in history that we know of are very selfish bcz they want everyone to become enlightened like them bcz that is true enlightenment.
oh and in case you are reading this Yogani, i must tell you that you are the biggest selfish person i ever met .
namaste brothers and sisters,
Ananda |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2009 : 10:06:20 AM
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| Hi Sparkle, The right intention leads to the highest result which is Buddhahood. A hallmark of the Buddha's mind is non-discrimination and seeing all phenomena with an eye of equality. Highest wisdom comes from being non-judgmental. I don't know anyone with a savior complex. I do know people with a commitment to altruism. Of course, ego always tries to reassert itself, and perhaps many people do force their views on others where it is not appropriate. That is due to wrong view as well. Everything we do has to come from wisdom and compassion. Good meditation practices foster this. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2009 : 11:15:42 AM
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Hi,
are you the old themysticseeker?
Anyway you are correct, a lot Buddhist tantra and Hindu tantra is similar.
The key difference is that Buddhists gave up the belief that people have an inherent existence. This seemingly minor difference in view results in very different results, possibly even rainbow body if you have that potential within you.
A good example would be Milarepa, who used kundalini type practices to achieve Great Transfer rainbow body. |
Edited by - alwayson on Apr 06 2009 11:34:12 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2009 : 1:09:15 PM
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| Hi Alwayson, As if you didn't already know... Of course you know that because I emailed from my new email address since I took refuge and told you that I was given the dharma name; whereupon you interrogated me about some point regarding Mahamudra. How are you Alwayson, are you still pursuing your Pratyekabuddha path? |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2009 : 2:47:36 PM
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I consider it more of a Mahasiddha path. I have taken refuge and dedicated my merit on my own. The mahasiddha did not take excessive vows. They took refuge and dedicated their merit. They kept things simple. And they are known for achieving the best results.
I really need this one instruction though, and it is frustrating not being able to find it in academia.
Pema Duddul combined a practice called chulen of space with thogal and obtained rainbow body relatively easily. He wrote an instruction called Khakhyap Rangdrol. I cannot find an english translation anywhere. I just want to know how to do chulen of space. I know it is some sort of pranayama practice. |
Edited by - alwayson on Apr 06 2009 3:07:13 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2009 : 6:39:45 PM
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I bow to all the gurus, dakinis and dharma protectors. I don't know chulen of space. It is a secret. There is something like it in the Kashmiri non-dual school. You bring prana into the heart chakra by mediating the in breath and out breath at the convergence point above the solar plexus. Then you concentrate at this point near the heart chakra and simultaneously on the space below the nostrils directly in front of the heart chakra. This area is the source and destination of all our air. Concentration here is called the middle-state. This has the effect of not needing air. The Kashmiri non-dual school combines this with looking into the sun's rays, to create visions where inner and outer cannot be distinguished.
I don't know about excessive vows. I remember it taking five minutes. ;-) |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Apr 06 2009 7:00:58 PM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2009 : 10:53:47 PM
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Yeah but how do you if that practice is like chulen of space if you do not know what chulen of space is?
Chulen of space is an obsession for me....I must find out what it is. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 12:54:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
Yeah but how do you if that practice is like chulen of space if you do not know what chulen of space is?
Chulen of space is an obsession for me....I must find out what it is.
Respect to the Yogis and Yoginis. I know what chulen is, unless you find an exceptional Lama and go through a lot of stuff, you won't learn chulen. What I described is like chulen of space from the Kashmir Shivaite tradition. I found that they even have thogal and mahamudra. They have all the same techniques, just with somewhat different metaphysical philosophy, but still pretty much the same. This is where you can find techniques that the Tibetans won't share.
You are getting prana not from air, from no where, from akasha. You do this by bringing your breathe slowly to a standstill by meditating on two places: where the breath begins inside the solar plexus, and where it ends outside the body, about 12-18 inches under the nostrils, directly in front of the solar plexus, in space. This is literally called the madhya state in Shaivism.
If you try the technique you will see that it is profound and kind of scary, because you are not breathing but you don't need to breathe. This is taking sustenance from space. If you do this while fixing your gaze on the morning and evening sun's rays, you have yourself a powerful technique. When I tried it, it worked right away, then it freaked me out and now I can't do it again. It felt like breathing under water or something unreal.
You have to get yourself into a deeply relaxed state before it will work. Any agitation in the breathing rhythm and it falls apart. It works best if you slowly refine your breathing until it becomes silent and thin, like slowly weaning yourself off the need to breathe.
This is exactly chulen. You wean yourself off of food and just eat chulen pills, until you don't eat anything. So if you want to do chulen, you have to take time to wean yourself off food and water.
By the way, you really have to be careful experimenting with these practices. The yogis who perfected them charged dakinis and dharma protectors to prevent the wrong people from succeeding. There is high magic that guards these teachings. Also yogis have gotten stuck; you may need a spotter, or they will be waking you up in 500 years.
I suggest you do at least 100 long prostrations before getting into it. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 12:38:18 PM
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Seems like putting yourself in a trance ala astral projection
I always thought chulen may only be trance |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 1:22:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
Seems like putting yourself in a trance ala astral projection
I always thought chulen may only be trance
Ha ha... Not if you are resting in mind's real nature. This is the highest pranayama practice. I don't see how a trance can allow you to go without food, water or air. Trance is just a mind trick. Chulen has nothing to do with astral projection. There are masters who go without food for years; they do this to stay in retreat and not need help from anyone. That is why you would want this practice, to practice trekcho and thogal without interruption, even in the remotest part of the Earth. If you learned tummo you could do it in Antarctica. The Arctic ice is receding... LOL. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 1:49:56 PM
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| I know chulen of space is in all four schools of tibetan buddhism, so you should be receiving instructions fot it. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 2:07:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
I know chulen of space is in all four schools of tibetan buddhism, so you should be receiving instructions fot it.
I will. But my lama is old fashioned, even though he is pretty young. I'm doing my first retreat with him in a few weeks. That will be Mahamudra. Then, I have do complete ngondro. That will take months. It will be at least one year before I'm taught Six Yogas. Chulen is a high dharma practice; he would only teach it if I was entering extended retreat, like three-year retreat. They don't just teach things because you ask. There are lesser lamas who give out teachings willy nilly, but you can't trust that someone like that received the real knowledge from a great master or that they would teach it to you in a way you can use it.
What I was trying to express to you is that the Kashmir Shivaite lineage died. Their highest practices are out there, because their lineage holders gave out the teachings near their death. All the tantric dharma masters also had Shivaite masters. Shivaism is the origin of all these practices, mahamudra, thogal, chulen all find their origins in that tradition.
That, Professor Jones, is where you should look for teachings which the dharma crew won't share.
You should try the practice I gave you while looking into light rays. I tried it. It kind of blows my mind... |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 3:01:27 PM
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| Do you have any kashmir shaivism resources? |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 5:39:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
Do you have any kashmir shaivism resources?
vijnanabhairava tantra |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 6:55:54 PM
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I agree Shaivism and especially new translation schools of tibetan buddhism are closely related.
But I have never heard of shaivaites achieving rainbow body. Have you? |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 9:16:13 PM
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| My lama tells me that he knows many hindu yogis achieve rainbow body. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 10:37:01 PM
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Is there any info on that I can read?
I was of the impression hindus could not acheive rainbow body, simply because their view was off....they do not realize that all phenonmenon including thoughts and emotions lack inherent essence. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2009 : 02:10:56 AM
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| They said Anandamayi Ma attained the rainbow body... There are high and low rainbow bodies... |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2009 : 11:15:02 AM
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| anyone else? |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2009 : 12:58:22 AM
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| The Nath lineage produced many transference bodies. Gorakhshanath, Matsyendranath. There were many like this. The Mahasiddhas were not all Buddhist. Tilopa's guru was a Nath Kauli. Attainments are not the main point of view. Really the Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa is the best book for this. You're not going to find better or higher teachings that in there. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2009 : 8:56:54 PM
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very interesting thread
maybe the tantric information from the Nath could be useful, but the view of Dzogchen cannot be surpassed! |
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Dharma
