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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 9:20:16 PM
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I haven't been much inclined to communicate regarding my AYP practices lately. Recently, however, I came upon a copy of The Chasm of Fire by Irina Tweedie and she so eloquently puts into word that which I cannot:
"Becoming aware of much peace lately. It has come gradually, creeping up like a thief. I hardly noticed it at first. It is a different kind of peace from the one experienced during the last few years... Now it is like a deep, still pool, full of silence and darkness. It could be the background of anything at all - joy can be impressed on it, or love or spiritual dryness or lonliness. it makes me think of the depth of the ocean, always calm in depth even when huge waves are raging on the surface."
Namaste,
Joe |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 11:30:54 PM
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Wonderful Joe...so great to hear!
Love,
Carson |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2009 : 5:57:13 PM
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Here's another one which hits even closer to home:
"I seem to have lost all interest in everything. When taking part in conversation, I have to make an effort to follow, because it interests me so little and the mind is not very flexible, not very sharp. Have neither the desire to go back nor to remain; have much peace though. When looking at the trees, the flowers, the lovely transparent sky, had moments as if suddenly thought was completely suspended in nothingness; just looking, just feeling. The same dream quality which I had so often as a child alone with nature, and which I had lost completely after my school days, returned sharp and clear, only deeper, clearer; almost frightening to the mind." (p. 45)
Namaste,
Joe |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2009 : 9:05:56 PM
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Joe,
What a great book, I read it about a year ago (actually I read Daughter of Fire by Tweedie, I think its the same...). Have it sitting here on my night stand (underneath all of my Yogani books)  Really an inspirational account; the level of Bhakti in this woman is incredible. Helped me to put into perspective the role of suffering and challenges in our life; to help us see the ways in which we are resisting I AM. Once we let go and accept(aided by SBP and DM), the suffering recedes; replaced by the feelings described so well above....
Very glad to hear that you are becoming immersed in the Bliss
Peace & Namaste |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 04:22:35 AM
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Hi Joe,
quote:
I haven't been much inclined to communicate regarding my AYP practices lately. Recently, however, I came upon a copy of The Chasm of Fire by Irina Tweedie and she so eloquently puts into word that which I cannot:
"Becoming aware of much peace lately. It has come gradually, creeping up like a thief. I hardly noticed it at first. It is a different kind of peace from the one experienced during the last few years... Now it is like a deep, still pool, full of silence and darkness. It could be the background of anything at all - joy can be impressed on it, or love or spiritual dryness or lonliness. it makes me think of the depth of the ocean, always calm in depth even when huge waves are raging on the surface."
Namaste,
Joe
Beautiful! I have experienced this too at times. It is a quiet thing, less dramatic than many of the experiences that are discussed in this forum, but somehow more profound. For me, it comes when I am least expecting it, out of nowhere somehow. The beginning of the Turya state perhaps?
Yogani once said that resting in the witness state 24/7 was the first stage of enlightenment. So it could be a good sign. 
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 04:24:11 AM
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Hi Parallax,
Yes, I believe Daughter of fire is the same book as Chasm of fire, although one may be an abridged version of the other (about half the length).
Christi |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 10:03:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by brushjw
Here's another one which hits even closer to home:
"I seem to have lost all interest in everything. When taking part in conversation, I have to make an effort to follow, because it interests me so little and the mind is not very flexible, not very sharp. Have neither the desire to go back nor to remain; have much peace though. When looking at the trees, the flowers, the lovely transparent sky, had moments as if suddenly thought was completely suspended in nothingness; just looking, just feeling. The same dream quality which I had so often as a child alone with nature, and which I had lost completely after my school days, returned sharp and clear, only deeper, clearer; almost frightening to the mind." (p. 45)
Namaste,
Joe
Sharpness, clarity and super-awareness and joy follows the dull quiet state. This is a story about stages on the path. The one we all take. |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 10:34:58 AM
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Hi Christi!!
Daughter must be the long version (822pgs); even though it wasn't particularly uplifting in some places, I must admit I had a hard time putting the book down  Watching the systematic dissolution of her ego (from her point of view)over the course of the book was fascinating
I also much prefer Yogani's approach to spiritual practices to that of Bhai Sahib  |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 5:18:21 PM
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Here's a quote that I'm sure won't go over well here, but it seems to be true in my case:
"Like birth, creation is a painful process. To be able to create, one has to destroy first, and destruction in synonymous with pain. [...] To reach the goal you have to be turned inside out, burned with the fire of love so that nothing shall remain but ashes and from the ashes will resurect the new being, very unlike the previous one. Only then can there be real creation. For this process is destruction, creation and love. Another name for Love is Pain and Effort" (Tweedie 48).
Namaste,
Joe
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 5:26:15 PM
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Here's something to ponder:
"Only things which you cannot explain are lasting. What can be comprehended with the mind is not a high state. If you cannot express it, cannot put it into words - those are things not of the mind and they will go on forever!" (Tweedie 104)
Namaste,
Joe |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 9:00:24 PM
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Hey Joe!
I glad that you brought Irina Tweedie up as a thread because reading this book raised a major question in my mind. Namely, does the process of "enlightenment" or becoming "Self-Realized" necessarily need to be a path of suffering.?? Certainly Tweedie argued that the path to Truth was one of suffering. And I'm sure in many instances it can be...
And after reading some portions of the book, I did feel a little freaked out, ie is progressing further on the spiritual path going to mean a major increase in suffering? Not a particularly great marketing tool.
The conclusion that I ultimately came to was that there are situations that are thrown at us in life to teach us spiritual lessons, to help us learn something about ourselves that we need to know, and that ultimately going through these types of challenging times is what help us progress. Sometimes its to lead us to seek God in the first place, sometimes its to reduce our ego, sometimes its to teach us compassion, or patience, etc. Or sometimes, the challenges in life provide us useful feedback as to where we are and how far we've progressed on the path. If we are hoping to improve our patience, how will we know if we've achieved it unless we're put in situations that truly test our patience??!!
But the amount of our suffering will be greatly influenced by how much we resist what is happening rather than accepting/surrendering to what God throws at us..trusting that it is ultimately for our best. Seems to me that Tweedie was a fiery, headstrong woman, and learning how to surrender and let go of her ego was very difficult and entailed a lot of suffering for her.
I'm curious as to others' views. Does the spiritual path NEED to be a path of suffering????
Peace & Namaste,
Matt |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 04:00:18 AM
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Hi all,
quote:
Parallax wrote:
I glad that you brought Irina Tweedie up as a thread because reading this book raised a major question in my mind. Namely, does the process of "enlightenment" or becoming "Self-Realized" necessarily need to be a path of suffering.?? Certainly Tweedie argued that the path to Truth was one of suffering. And I'm sure in many instances it can be...
Irina Tweedie was engaged in a particular form of awakening. Essentially she was being awakened through being in the presence of a master. She would go and sit near him every day, and because of his ecstatic radiance, her own subtle body was awakened. At first she would sit in the same room as him, but later when he saw that she was waking up too quickly, he would make her sit outside with the door closed. Then he started telling her not to come at all on certain days, or only to come for a few hours.
Irina seems to have been amazingly ignorant as to what he was doing, and she thought he was making her sit outside because he did not like her, or in order to keep her waiting. She wrote at times in her journal that some days he would make her wait outside all day, and then would send someone to tell her to go home. On these occasions she could not believe how cruel he was!
If only she had known what was really going on.
Her master was regulating the physical distance that she sat from him, and the number of hours each week as a form of self-pacing. He also left it up to her... she never had to come and sit near him. In this way she chose the painful path out of her own spiritual desire. Even when she was in great pain she would still go and sit outside his room.
So you could say that her suffering was a combination of her master allowing it to happen, and her choosing it, and her own ignorance as to the process of awakening through ecstatic radiance.
Certainly no-one has to take such a path. There are much more joyful ways to return to the divine.
Christi |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 05:50:46 AM
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hi all,
and thk you for mentioning the details of this story Christy and Parallax.
i sort of went through the same thing as Irina with my first teacher (7 years back) the one who awakened my eyes to the world of mystism but to be honest with you i think that teacher should've told her that he was doing that for her own good and she would've understood i'm positive of that.
but i didn't do the same as Irina (i just took off) bcz you feel sort of betrayed when you surrender that much and give so much love and you get nothing in return by someone whom you feel is breaking your will,literally destroying something within you (which turned out later on to be the ego...)
i'm very grateful for what that man did now, cz without him i wouldn't have been here i'm sure of that plus i wouldn't have the same reciptivity and openess i have now.
now concerning the pain and suffering, i know that it doesn't seem to be the same for all but i kind of agree with Irina suffering becomes more common in a man's life every time he progresses on the path it just happens but a person must know how to deal with it and know it for what it really is a purification.
i kind of have a great life and a wonderful supportive family and it's a lot more easy going for me than most of the guys in my country plus i've been blessed with meeting and learning from a lot of wonderful people (by the way Christy i am very honored to be in your presence, i just feel blessed for knowing a kind and generous individual as yourself and you plus Yogani as well and others here in this community do have that ecstatic radiance thingy i get that vibe from you guys)
but never the less i went through a lot of suffering in my life, every now and then out of nowhere .... will happen in my surrounding it would either be an accident or a death or someone being sick or getting sick myself... and this stuff happens more than often with me and it's kind of still going on.
i sort of do not have such a happy place after the death of my brother but that in it's own terms have become a spiritual gift cz everyone in the family is a lot more deep and awaken spiritually.
now concerning pain, i've heard and read about it more than once "if we knew what pain does for us we would scream asking for it as saints do"
pain simply purifies and it does so hugely, you must've noticed the common patern between saints they all do get sick badly at the beginning of their path or have a certain accident which awakens their eyes to reality or meet an enlightened who had such a life and maybe they'll get it easy then but i'm sure they've had their share of suffering in their past lives.
actually i don't know about you guys, but even though i have all the ecstatic experiences i am always in pain from separation of my beloved my heart akes for it till the end of becoming crazy and i've accept what life throws at me cz i've kind of asked God for it i want to go through whatever it takes i don't care cz a life without achieving enlightenment isn't worth it.
and guess what every time i ake now i feel closer to god i offer my pain to him and i know that it's purification and it works as such every time i pass through one of these episodes.
i kind of went through one of the top five hours of suffering in my life last thursday i got very sick and a cold wind hit my left shoulder and the pain over there was uncontrolable even though i know how to diminish pain in the body but this time it was hell...
and the next two days, i was melting in blissful stillness and experiencing tons of ecstacies and something happens every time i go through such a phase i feel new like i took a dip in ... and then stood up clean and new...
wow i kind of wrote a lot of stuff up there, sorry guys i guess it's enough...
light and love,
Ananda |
Edited by - Ananda on Feb 01 2009 06:48:32 AM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 07:49:15 AM
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Hi,
My 2 cents I guess.
A lot of what this woman says (never heard of her before) hits home with me. The part about losing interest in conversation - been there, now I can manage it better. The part about true Love being pain and creation, I agree. And even more when she says the true reality cannot be put into words and understood with the mind or put into a box that we can keep forever. The real things that matter, the things that really last, like she says, cannot be attached to anything. That is the true art of non-attachment. The more we let go, the more we have, and the more we have the more we have to learn to let go. I think it's that letting go that can be a source of suffering for the ego (that is frightened and wants to keep good things for himself), as she very well puts it in the sentence "almost frightening to the mind". I guess the suffering depends on the strenght of one's ego. Reality is still one and the same, our resistance to it might vary nevertheless.
It is a paradox. Me I find that the more I disattach from expectations and outcomes and the more it may seem I have less, the richer I become and the more joy and peace I seem to have, and the more seems to come into my life. Maybe it's a pull, like oosmosis - the more void there is in me, the more it pulls into itself. The art is in the letting go of everyhting that is pulled until you are flowing with it all.
I guess... |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 08:48:07 AM
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Hi all,
Yes, I am aware of these pains.... the pain of the death of the ego, and the pain of separation from the Divine. In my own case the first one is not really a pain... more a fear of dissolution which comes at times. When I am present I go deeper into the ocean, and it is the fear that brings me back.
The second is more like a yearning, or a longing than a pain. Like when you have been away from home for a long time and you want to go back. There is a constant remembrance, but then at times it feels very near and you can almost feel the embrace of it.
I guess in my case I am fortunate because the joy and beauty that have come to me on the spiritual path out-weigh these sufferings, so I don't think of them as painful. One (the yearning for the Divine) leads me home, and the other (the fear of death) keeps me from burning up in the Divine Light. So there is reason to be grateful for both.
Christi |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 10:05:05 AM
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the joy and beauty which come on the path outweighs all kinds of suffering Christy that's true; otherwise we wouldn't continue on it i mean who wants a life of pain and misery.
i was pointing at the pains you mentioned and you gave a good description of them.
but other than these two there is another kind of pain which is related to sickness and suffering in the physical sense and in the emotional from the loss of loved ones...
take for example the sickness of Saint Jean la croix et Teresa de Avila and the suicidal depression of Eckhart tolle... plus there is someone among us here in this forum who has been through sickness and came out shining out of it "it's good dear old katrine".
all i'm saying is that during sickness and pain both the emotional and the physical kinds there seems to be happening a lot of spiritual openings.
now i don't know why does that have to be, but it seems to be happening all the time especialy in the life of saints and even if these guys aren't going through it they seem to be asking for it at one time or the other either by doing penances like strong fasting or for asking to carry on the suffering of others...
but i don't deny the fact that there might be other roads who are purely filled with bliss and ecstacy like that of AYP according to what Yogani says but we don't know a lot of his past and if he had an easy ride so who knows there might be two ways to it.
Ananda |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2009 : 9:31:18 PM
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We're driven by a kind of divine madness along the spiritual path. A path that leads to the anhililation of the self can't help but be painful as the ego thrashes in its death throes. Inner silence and bliss are fine but the path doesn't stop there. I think what Yogani is doing is lighting a fire which may just consume us - in the highest sense of the word.
Namaste,
Joe |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 03:40:00 AM
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Hi Brushjw,
quote:
We're driven by a kind of divine madness along the spiritual path. A path that leads to the anhililation of the self can't help but be painful as the ego thrashes in its death throes. Inner silence and bliss are fine but the path doesn't stop there. I think what Yogani is doing is lighting a fire which may just consume us - in the highest sense of the word.
That could be the path of overdoing practices.
I believe, with proper self pacing, there is a more gentle, and more beautiful approach to the stage of merging with the infinate:
"My friends asked me to show them my beloved. Overwhelmed by tears of love, I could not say anything."
Guru Nanak (founder of the Sikh path to enlightenment)
Christi
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 05:10:23 AM
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Very beautiful Christi.
I too hope and believe there such a gentle path.
Another thought. I started reading the Chasm of Fire and am enjoying it. In it the teacher says that His Teachings are a Path of Freedom. In the sense that the student does not have to do anything but be present there with the teacher. They don't even have to pray. It is as it is the teacher's mission and duty to "change" the student with it's own power and energy, after consent from the student.
What do you think of this path? Is it a valid one? Does it still exist amongst the Sufi's or other groups? Would you say it is an easier path than a path that requires some effort from the student (in the form of meditation, prayers or other practices)? |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 05:20:26 AM
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hi brushjw, i have to agree with Christy that there is a possibility of an easy path but i haven't seen that before i've met yogani.
and yogani went through hell before he got here if the story of john wilder has some similarities to his life but it seems all worth it in the end.
other than the overdoing symptoms whom we've got an answer to thks to yogani "self pacing pointers"; what i was aiming at is the normal day suffering which happens to a lot of the people on the path maybe not to everyone but to the majority and most probably it usually happens before they get on the path....
Ananda |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 05:28:12 AM
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hi yogaislife,
actually i've been told by a very close suffi friend of mine that there is a suffi sheikh living in Tunis named "Aba el Kassem bel kheir" ÃÈæ ÇáÞÇÓã ÈáÎíÑí.
i wish i have the time and money to go and see that sheikh one day, i've been told of a lot of people who had the vision of god just by being arround him.
if you want the email of my friend, i can give it to you and you can speak with him "by the way that friend of mine is a seer himself as well and some of the people on this website do confirm that sometimes you kind of feel a shakti transmission just by reading his email replies"
love,
Ananda |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 5:55:00 PM
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OK one more:
"Our relationship to God is something entirely different from what we imagine it to be. We think that the relationship of God and Man is a duality. But it is not so. I have found that our relationship to God is something quite different. It is a merging, without words, without thought even; into 'something'. Something so tremendous, so endless, merging in Infinite Love, physical body and all, disappearing in it. And the physical body is under suffering; it is taught like a string in this process of annhiliation. This is our experience of God and it cannot be otherwise" (Tweedie 179).
Namaste,
Joe |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 6:33:06 PM
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| Nice Joe, I am just wondering about the "...it cannot be other wise" part...I think she was brought to awareness fairly quickly by her teacher and he warned her many times before hand (I am actually at this part now ) that she was going to suffer and it was going to be painful, even at the physical level. I guess if we prepare ourselves well with a solid base of practices like meditation and pranayma, the ride would be much smoother. That is my guess anyway. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 05:59:50 AM
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Hi Yogaislife
quote:
Very beautiful Christi.
I too hope and believe there such a gentle path.
Another thought. I started reading the Chasm of Fire and am enjoying it. In it the teacher says that His Teachings are a Path of Freedom. In the sense that the student does not have to do anything but be present there with the teacher. They don't even have to pray. It is as it is the teacher's mission and duty to "change" the student with it's own power and energy, after consent from the student.
What do you think of this path? Is it a valid one? Does it still exist amongst the Sufi's or other groups? Would you say it is an easier path than a path that requires some effort from the student (in the form of meditation, prayers or other practices)?
I think it is a very beautiful path, and one that I have journeyed on a few times. As a form of spiritual practice I think it is a great addition to what we are doing here, or to any other spiritual practice. As a stand alone practice it does have some limitations. It is obviously dependent on the teacher and disciple being able to be in the same space often and for a lengthy duration of time. What happens to the students if the teacher needs to go away somewhere? Or if the teacher dies? Irina sufferend from both these calamities on her journey. When her teacher died she was left very confused about what to do next.
That's why I would say that it is a good addition to spiritual practices, and not always a good substitute for them. But if you are lucky enough to be living near a saint, then do go and recieve their blessing.
Christi |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 06:54:44 AM
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quote:
That's why I would say that it is a good addition to spiritual practices, and not always a good substitute for them. But if you are lucky enough to be living near a saint, then do go and recieve their blessing.
I wish! No saints around here I'm afraid... Or are there? I trust my bhakti will take me to them if needed be.
Thanks Christi for sharing!
P.S.: I am truly amazed with the Sufi tradition though...very fascinated by it. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 08:25:50 AM
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Thank you all for this lovely thread.
Christi suggested I read Irinas book some months ago (thank you, Christi).......we were discussing in another topic the strong effect the ecstatic radiance could have on other people.........and reading it....there were so many similarities to the process here......I cried from it.....because the pain has been so immense sometimes....and yet it is nothing compared to the connectedness inside......but before this is felt...it is difficult to go through........after it is felt, it can also be difficult, but this difficulty in comparison is taking place in a small corner of a vast space.......it may be instantly as painful....but lasts very short.
The stubbornness here.....is just as stubborn as it has always been. In here......there must always be a willingness to see that conditioned responses will happen. The tendency to get attached, the pain of separation.......all of it is as before. Nothing has changed regarding what I am not.
It is just that.....the presence....the shine.... that it all takes place in.....every time there is further "crisis"/purification.....what is burnt up - often still through pain that is inevitable if resistance is kept up - it frees the Love from that NOW place of being held hostage.....
And though not rejoicing when in pain....the immense joy felt when the freedom happens through the dissolving.......it makes all pain there ever was worth it...
For such stubborn people like myself......it takes a while before the path of pain transforms into the path of Joy and Love......I am such a thickheaded helmeted Viking....what else can Love do....other than gonging this helmet hard??
When a body/mind conditioning is identified with.......and this will happen.......instead of bying into the thought and feeling that says "I am blocked"......there is more and more a capability of seeing that "I am aware of a feeling of being blocked".......and when seen to it that there is enough time to be by myself in presence.....this "feeling of being blocked"....it is seen that it can be allowed to be here......because in this allowing.....the openness that sees it......it becomes evident that it is THIS that I am. So no matter the disturbance......being still with it.....transforms it....it is eaten up completely by itself. Noone does anything.
However....the stubbornness....just like the ecstatic radiance.....effects other people. Just recently...there was identification with a conditioned response.......and it instantly created a feeling of there being a "barrier"....or a "wall" in the other. This is not true! There are no others. The barrier...the wall....arose within what I am. It may very well be triggered by "someone else's" conditioned reactions. But this matters not. What there is identification with is always happening in here...not over there somewhere.
Anyway.....there was an instant belief that "I am affected by this barrier"....or worse..."I am this barrier".....and this belief instantly dimmed the perception of the Shine. For both of "us"! And the pain felt when causing others to suffer like this......this pain is terrible.
Yet - thank Love for that pain. How else will the responsibility that comes with living as greater and greater awareness....how else can it be implicit....if the ignoring of it's consequences is not instantly felt?
Irina:
quote:
"Our relationship to God is something entirely different from what we imagine it to be. We think that the relationship of God and Man is a duality. But it is not so. I have found that our relationship to God is something quite different. It is a merging, without words, without thought even; into 'something'. Something so tremendous, so endless, merging in Infinite Love, physical body and all, disappearing in it. And the physical body is under suffering; it is taught like a string in this process of annhiliation. This is our experience of God and it cannot be otherwise" (Tweedie 179).
This is exactly how it is felt here....
Except....here it is not even a merging. There is noone here to merge with anything....
I is simply this:
To be Quiet.
In stillness it is seen that what is seemingly trapped is seemingly freed also.
As Irina says...it never was a duality......
Thank you Love for days, weeks, months and years of meditation that cultivates Silence.......and thank Love for all pain necessary to burn up stubbornness...helmets....gongs.....and all else insisting on separate life.
There was never any guru in the flesh here....not until the blissful....and "rock-the-boat" encounter with Amma last fall :-)
It is the Shine that is the Guru that is always here.....
Meeting Amma......sitting in her vast Love......if the Shine sees it fit.....there will be sitting with her again.
Such Grace
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The Chasm of Fire
