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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 08 2009 : 07:20:11 AM
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Having followed a link to a guy caled Mooji I realised that he advovated self enquiry without the use of meditation. All the same ideas that are present within his own philosophy....including 'I am' though not as a Mantra.
He certainly is quite happy that if someone wants to meditate and use mantra as their personal method of becoming more spiritual, then that would be the right way for them. Alternatively he says that there is no need to do it like thator any other set procedure. Just realising that there is someone behind the mind, concious, memory and body, to be simply question and be aware of your own awareness is thought to be enough.
I never thought of it like that before. Meditation seems to be revealing things for me and I am more than happy about that, but it did lead me to wondering if the way is even simpler ??? |
Edited by - AYPforum on Jan 08 2009 08:08:26 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2009 : 08:53:41 AM
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Hi Karl,
Have you read Yogani's Self Inquiry book? He covers your question really well. He talks about relational and non-relational self inquiry.
Here is what the FAQ says:
What is Self-Inquiry or Jnana Yoga ?
Self-inquiry (the path of discrimination and the path of the intellect) or jnana yoga (union through knowledge) has been part of yoga and other systems of spiritual practice for centuries. The primary aim of self-inquiry is to dissolve the suffering caused by the identification of the mind/ego with pain, discomfort and the failure of desires. This is done by remaining established in the witness – the unconditioned inner silence that resides within all of us. Although self inquiry can be practiced as a stand alone practice (non-relational self inquiry), it works best when it arises naturally due to the presence of the witness (relational self-inquiry). The witness is cultivated through daily practice of deep meditation.
Assuming one is engaged in daily deep meditation, here are five stages of mind that self-inquiry may play itself upon as we move along in our development:
1)Pre-Witnessing – Information and intellectual assessments about truth provide inspiration, and a tendency to build mental castles in the air, ideas reacting with ideas, which is non-relational selfinquiry. So we do what is necessary to cultivate the witness.
2)Witnessing – Perceiving the world, our thoughts and feelings as objects separate from Self. It is the beginning of relational self-inquiry, chosen or not.
3)Discrimination – The reversal of identification by logical choices based on direct perception rooted in stillness. This is more advanced relational selfinquiry which is able to discern the real from the unreal.
4)Dispassion – Rise of the condition of no judgment and no attachment. The process of self-inquiry becoming automatic to the point of all objects and self-inquiry itself being constantly dissolved in the witness.
5)Merging of Subject and Object – "I am That. You are That. All this is That." Ongoing outpouring divine love, service to others, and unity.
Here are a few lines from Yogani's book talking about Relational and Non-relational self-inquiry:
"For example, if we ask the question, “Who am I?”
and let go into our stillness, the answer will be there,
not as an idea, but as part of us in presence. We will
know who we are beyond the surroundings, our body,
thoughts and feelings. If we have been cultivating inner
silence in daily deep meditation, the answer will be
there to an increasing degree over time, until eventually
all that we have known to be other will be dancing on
our field of awareness like waves on the unmoving
depths of the ocean.
On the other hand, if we go about mentally
chanting, “Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?!”
pounding the idea away without any significant
stillness or presence of the witness, without any letting
go, then this will be non-relational self-inquiry. It can
lead to a lot of frustration, and real headaches. Much
better to get behind all that by developing our inner
quality of stillness, which we can then let go into easily
when engaged in self-inquiry."
quote:
Meditation seems to be revealing things for me and I am more than happy about that, but it did lead me to wondering if the way is even simpler ???
IMHO.. no.. you are doing very well with meditation. When self inquiry arises from within.. you go beyond your mind and self inquiry becomes automatic, and answers arise from the silence. Knowledge (at the mind level) is bondage.. knowing is liberation. The knowing flows in silence. You are doing very well.. keep it up and let your inner guru guide you in silence.
Wish you all the best. |
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dhyan
India
2 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2009 : 12:03:12 PM
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self enquiry is itself an meditation - but it should be followed with intense dedication and honesty.
and even some one wants to use Mantra then one should have complete faith on it and preferably should be initiated in it.
Ramana Maharshi self inquiry means to find the root of "I' thought
Regards
Dhyan
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2009 : 2:23:44 PM
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Hi Karl
quote:
I never thought of it like that before. Meditation seems to be revealing things for me and I am more than happy about that, but it did lead me to wondering if the way is even simpler ???
I enjoy Mooji immensly This is mostly due to years of meditation and self-inquiry together. One is able to savour that which he is advocating only through tasting it. And for that....ripeness....a certain preparation.... is needed. Or else one walks in mental circles and strivings. One may "get it" at his feet....but what about afterwards....when the world comes "crashing" back? Some ripens fast....many of us do not. Self-inquiry rose naturally after 4 years of meditation here. I never stopped meditating. After 24 years of it....it keeps bringing me deeper in between the sittings. And...it sees to it that I never get comfortable thinking that "I will always be here now". Anticipating that....expecting that....is to take matter into one's own hands...and they never belong there I don't concider the meditations a practice anymore....they are so much part of a daily routine....and are enjoyed so much.......
Mooji himself went through years of his own preparation....devotional practices...prayer....spending time with Papaji etc....so...even for him....some preparation was necessary. And.....he sits a lot in spontaneous meditation.....being what he is
I am very grateful for all that Mooji gives of himself....he is a vast inspiration here. I love his Satsangs ....find them powerful and infused with gentle love
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2009 : 10:58:54 PM
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Hi karl,
Whenever people say you don't need meditation, that you can realize (whatever) with mind alone, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. Yes, they are correct, you don't need meditation to self-realize (or whatever). But most of us need it as a stepping stone.
It's like learning to ride a bike. Yes, you don't need training wheels, but most of us do until we realize that we don't...
Make sense?
I dig Mooji. I think he's the real deal. But he's talking from the heights and we are down here in the mud.
I hope I'm explaining myself adequately....
What I mean is... yes, he's probably right that we don't need meditation. But I would suggest meditating until that becomes reality for you.
With Love
cosmic |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2009 : 11:34:08 PM
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Depends on if you are interested in making noticable spiritual progress in this lifetime or not. If you don't care, then you don't need meditation. You will become enlightened no matter what you do. It just takes more lifetimes.
I challenge anyone to try anything besides meditation for a few years, and compare your progress with people here doing meditation.
I like Cosmic's analogy of the training wheels. I imagine some people hop on a bike and ride without ever using training wheels. Then why do they sell so many of them?
I think it would be irresponsible for those people to tell everyone else not to use them. |
Edited by - Etherfish on May 26 2009 11:40:39 PM |
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sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2009 : 11:57:29 PM
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I am not sure I understand the training wheels analogy?
As far as I know adults don't use training wheels, they are for children to gain confidence and balance until the time comes or they are now tall enough to place their feet on the ground.
Is you saying meditation is like that?meditation is training wheels for enlightenment?
ALso is meditation considered spiritual-is it not also just developing/enhancing relaxation, focus,calm? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2009 : 12:22:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sage
I am not sure I understand the training wheels analogy?
As far as I know adults don't use training wheels, they are for children to gain confidence and balance until the time comes or they are now tall enough to place their feet on the ground.
Is you saying meditation is like that?meditation is training wheels for enlightenment?
ALso is meditation considered spiritual-is it not also just developing/enhancing relaxation, focus,calm?
OK, not too good an analogy because training wheels are given up quickly, whereas meditation is still useful. But what I meant is once you ride a bike it is easy to forget that training wheels were essential at one time.
Yes meditation develops relaxation, focus, and calm. But that is not the purpose of it; those are side effects.
The purpose is very spiritual - read about it in yogani's "main lessons" link at the top of this page.
Meditation begins and enhances a spiritual process that puts us on the path of enlightenment. The process is complex and different for each person, but that is not important because meditation is simple.
And meditation is the only practice that is essential. If you do only meditation and nothing else, it will be enough to become enlightened, providing you have enough bhakti. (see the "yoga FAQ" above)
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sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2009 : 12:44:56 AM
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once you learn how to ride a bike,
you never forget how to ride a bike.
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2009 : 01:16:31 AM
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Uhmm... yeah forget the training wheels analogy 
All I meant is that some people are incredibly special and don't need meditation to reach the heights. If you are such a person, more power to you. You are blessed.
For the rest of us, meditation will get us there.
If you're fortunate like Eckhart Tolle, then forget meditation. You don't need it.
Otherwise I'd recommend keeping at it, twice daily...
With Love
cosmic |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2009 : 4:45:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Depends on if you are interested in making noticable spiritual progress in this lifetime or not. If you don't care, then you don't need meditation. You will become enlightened no matter what you do. It just takes more lifetimes.
I challenge anyone to try anything besides meditation for a few years, and compare your progress with people here doing meditation.
I like Cosmic's analogy of the training wheels. I imagine some people hop on a bike and ride without ever using training wheels. Then why do they sell so many of them?
I think it would be irresponsible for those people to tell everyone else not to use them.
why do they sell so many? because many people are scared of getting hurt
safe route, fast route who can rightly judge? |
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Self Enquiry without meditation?
