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apachechief
Ireland
65 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 27 2008 : 4:05:42 PM
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An old Cherokee chief was teaching his grandson about life...
"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.
"One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and ego.
"The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.
"This same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather,
"Which wolf will win?"
The old chief simply replied,
"The one you feed."
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2008 : 4:29:12 PM
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Thank you, great story, Apachechief 
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 10:42:45 AM
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Great story apachechief
This reminds me also of the Buddhist way of looking at it.
They talk of always having the seeds of anger, hate, love, greed,hope, humility, arrogance etc. both negative and positive within us.
This is very interesting to me because it reminds us that we always have, as you say, those two wolves within us.
In the case of the wolves it is which we feed, in the case of the seeds the ones we water, that will grow and flourish.
It also provides the scenario that in accepting this we can accept ourselves with all those seeds and the two wolves just as we are - right now.
We don't have worry about ridding ourselves of these things and always stretching ourselves out in this expectation.
We simply accept the wolves or seeds we have and water the ones that will bring us joy, peace, happiness and love. It is accepting our humanity.
The development of deep inner silence through the AYP practices or other, along with relational self-inquiry, make this so much easier.
Ride on Chief |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 11:33:07 AM
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Thanks apachechief for sharing the story and welcome to the AYP forum.
With different words, one wolf could be seen as inner-silence or the witness and the other as thoughts/ ego or mind. "Energy flows where attention goes" this is how we feed the wolves. What we choose and where we place our attention dictates which wolf our energy will feed. Will we choose joy, peace or love or would we rather be right?
If we bring our attention constantly to inner silence (pure being) throughout our days, our awareness of it expands. Constant acceptance of all that arises internally and in others is the direct path to wholeness. Acceptance, as Louis points out, is the fastest way to dissipate the energy invested in mind which needs opposition to exist. Without opposition, (the play of opposites) there is no longer two...All that remains is One...
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 3:30:09 PM
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| The only obstacle to this is... unawareness. Unconscious patterns is what feeds the evil wolf whether we like it or not. And the problematic characteristic of the unconscious patterns is... that it is unconscious! So we can't choose, can we? Not until the pattern becomes seen and thus conscious! That's where the will to self-inquire comes into the picture. If we are willing and has the fire inside we will - like warriors - go towards the uncomfortable zones of unawareness and face whatever there is to face that we didn't expect or believed was possible that we would ever carry inside... |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 4:58:22 PM
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Hi emc,
Agreed, thank you for rounding the idea out. Awareness does give the ability to choose. I think we can spend lifetimes uncovering unconscious patterns but total acceptance (some people prefer the word surrender) can thankfully transcend the requirement to choose. Surrendering to all that arises without acting on any of it will (eventually) allow for the total dissipation of all opposites. Likely some inner silence is required for this though and of course the initial choice to surrender has to be made...enter practices into the equation... |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2008 : 12:48:04 AM
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Thanks Apachechief for starting off this topic!
True, Anthem. I'll just continue to elaborate:
quote:
total acceptance (some people prefer the word surrender) can thankfully transcend the requirement to choose. - - - of course the initial choice to surrender has to be made
The ability to accept IS overcoming/going beyond the unconscious pattern. If you are ready to accept you have already SEEN that the involuntary habitual patterns are not worth spending another dime on and then the choice is yours! When IN the pattern it will probably scream:
"Hell no, I'm NOT going to accept THAT!"
and the mental picture of acceptance would seem absurd and bizarre to say the least!
I think acceptance is dropping the wish to protect yourself. As long as we feel there's a need for protection we will not accept or be ready to surrender. It would be far too dangerous. So we need a bit of faith and trust in Da Force in order to do that - built (as you say and as we all know) by daily practices and increasing inner stillness.
If we don't trust The One Greater Than Us (or whatever we might call it at the moment), we will have no platform to land on when we surrender. If we just think we surrender psychologically or surrender only to 99%... we will probably still be spiralling in some sort of emotional hell and draw the conclusion "Surrendering is overrated. Hell no, I'm not doing THAT again!" and we will build stronger fences towards the scary unknown... and feed the evil wolf
*moon shining*
*aouuouuuouuuuuu* |
Edited by - emc on Sep 29 2008 12:49:42 AM |
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lorf
48 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2008 : 2:20:27 PM
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quote:
I think acceptance is dropping the wish to protect yourself. As long as we feel there's a need for protection we will not accept or be ready to surrender.
I think we need to differentiate beetween the need for protection and fear. Fear is an obstacle, the need of protection is often real. We have bodies, both physical and energetical in this dimension that we have to take care of. First, make sure sure that these bodies are not damaged. Then, when that is taken care of. Surrender. Our bodies are our vehicles we have to do the job, i.e. become multidimensional. If the vehicle is damaged it will cease to work. If this vehicle is made strong enough with meditation or whatever the need for protection gradually ceases. But not before that.
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2008 : 7:12:09 PM
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I think we feed the two wolves, and one interacts depending on the circumstances. I don't think its possible to feed only one wolf, cause we are interacting in the human world, and its a world full of violence, and we have to deffend ourselves, I mean our bodies. Sometimes we have to be the "bad wolf" if we want to continue living in this world. I think these "attributes" of the two wolves are but mere masks of the "ego", but we need the ego to survive. We focus our attention and energy (prana) in what we consider a "good thing", but the moment we have a bad situation in our lives,or a situation that we dislike, we focus immediately our attention or prana in the "bad wolf" and uncounscioussly we feed him. Being "aware" make us being conscious of our acts, but that doesn't means that we are not feeding the "bad wolf". Duality is part of our world and of our consciousness, if we get rid of duality, there is no "good or bad" things.We just "are".
Sat Nam
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by apachechief
An old Cherokee chief was teaching his grandson about life...
"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.
"One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and ego.
"The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.
"This same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather,
"Which wolf will win?"
The old chief simply replied,
"The one you feed."
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2008 : 7:46:13 PM
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We feed both, but it is possible to make decisions and take actions that tend to starve the bad wolf.
If your life situation puts you in the middle of violence and anger all the time, maybe you can change it.
If you are in the habit of easily being offended by the actions of others, through inner silence it is possible to see that you are wasting your energy. Then through desire there will appear times when you can choose not to be offended.
At first the ego will object, then eventually you will realize it feels better to not get involved. Then the peace you gain will become so valuable to you that you will rarely be tempted. So the bad wolf will be so weak that he won't bother you very much. |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2008 : 8:12:08 PM
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Etherfish
I agree with you, but rather I think that we must control the bad wolf, not starving him, cause we may need him. Its our body guard.
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
We feed both, but it is possible to make decisions and take actions that tend to starve the bad wolf.
If your life situation puts you in the middle of violence and anger all the time, maybe you can change it.
If you are in the habit of easily being offended by the actions of others, through inner silence it is possible to see that you are wasting your energy. Then through desire there will appear times when you can choose not to be offended.
At first the ego will object, then eventually you will realize it feels better to not get involved. Then the peace you gain will become so valuable to you that you will rarely be tempted. So the bad wolf will be so weak that he won't bother you very much.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2008 : 07:07:33 AM
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Lorf and Neli,
"One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and ego."
I meant that all of these things come from our sense of needing to protect ourselves. When we no longer have any self-considerations, blown up personal self-importance with a following wish to protect our personal selves in any way, when we realize that "I as a person" is not worth defending or protecting anylonger, that we are unimportant - then we are ready to accept.
It's only as long as someone very important (a VIP - very important person) is at stake we need to protect ourselves, which inevitably will result in all of the above characteristics of the evil wolf. |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2008 : 11:30:33 PM
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emc,
If one is in a war, who protects us ? the ego. The ego is our body guard, the spirit only wants to be liberated from the prison that is our body. The ego by any means will protects our bodies. All the adjectives that you mentioned about the "evil" wolf, are masks of the ego that all of us have in certain moments to protect our bodies from certain circumstances. We are persons and we live in a world full of persons, its impossible to avoid us as "persons", its impossible to be "unimportant" to ourselves, I don't buy that.
If we are unimportant, why to eat ? why to take a bath to smell ok, why to comb our hair ? why to take care of our children ? I mean we need the ego, to work in this blue planet. We cannot live without the ego. We can educate the ego or control it, but not erase it.
Also I didn't understand what are we ready to accept ?
Sat Nam
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Lorf and Neli,
"One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and ego."
I meant that all of these things come from our sense of needing to protect ourselves. When we no longer have any self-considerations, blown up personal self-importance with a following wish to protect our personal selves in any way, when we realize that "I as a person" is not worth defending or protecting anylonger, that we are unimportant - then we are ready to accept.
It's only as long as someone very important (a VIP - very important person) is at stake we need to protect ourselves, which inevitably will result in all of the above characteristics of the evil wolf.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2008 : 02:50:28 AM
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I just don't think the original story in any way points to the fact that there is a body that should be taken care of.
If someone points a gun at me (or does anything that that the mind would interpret as NOT RIGHT/humiliating/aggressive/negative in any way)I can start showing: anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt out of fear. It will all be attempts from a scared ego to escape the situation by using one or all of these manipulations or attacking modalities. So far it is how the world functions. That's how we do due to conditioning and fear. Because it is NOT ACCEPTABLE to the mind to have guns pointing in the face. It SHOULD NOT BE like that, so we have to resist it somehow.
If someone points a gun at me (or does anything that the mind would interpret as NOT RIGHT/humiliating/aggressive/negative in any way)I can start showing: joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith, because I KNOW there's nothing at stake here. If this body goes - my REAL SELF will be perfectly untouched, since it is invulnerable and eternal. I have realized nothing is at stake, so I can show faith and trust and ACCEPT that there's a gun pointing at me. There's not much fear in this, is it? It's total acceptance of WHAT IS. From this place - there's a greater chance of a creative outcome, since Silence will be operating without the distortion of a frighetened mind.
See, this is what Gandhi did.
This is what is practiced in martial arts like Ki-aikido. Love the attacker and he melts! Da Force and Love conquers all.
But we won't have the guts to stand there with an open heart before we have SEEN the mechanisms of the mind and are determined not to play its games anylonger.
I can take care of my body with an evil wolf protecting it or I can let a good wolf just plainly... do what it does, which might be taking really good care of my body. |
Edited by - emc on Oct 02 2008 03:11:14 AM |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2008 : 10:41:22 PM
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emc,
The boy talks about a fight inside him, and we can suppose that its in his body (mental, physical, or from the aura, all these are bodies).
The scaring ego will try to protect the body, by any means. We don't have to put all the adjectives that you are mentioning.
One can labells the ego by "good" or "evil", but this is also a conditioning of the mind. The ego also labells the "good" things, and it grows bigger inside us. But we cannot catch it, cause we think we are doing the right thing, cause is our good ego that is "acting", and he is always right, never wrong. Well this is a conditioning of the mind.
We are conditioned human beings, we cannot change that. Maybe we can a little bit, but not that much.
If "nothing is at stake" as you mentioned, then why to be alive ?
It's wonderful to be as Gandhi was, but one has to be realistic, in this world.
Maybe you are very right in here:
"we won't have the guts to stand there with an open heart before we have SEEN the mechanisms of the mind and are determined not to play its games anylonger."
But its not that easy to control the ego (mind) reactions. Just look at yourself, you seem to be mad at me now, I can feel it by the tone of your words, and we are just sharing opinions, I don't let the "bad wolf" to control my emotions.
Don't take it personally, I just want to understand as much as you.
I didn't meant to attack the "bad wolf" of anyone, sorry if you felt that. You are more advanced than me, and I just want to understand the mechanism of the mind or ego or the "bad wolf".
I Just love to share different opinions. I never get mad (or try not to) if another one has a different opinion.
Have a wonderful and beautiful day!
Sat Nam
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by emc
I just don't think the original story in any way points to the fact that there is a body that should be taken care of.
If someone points a gun at me (or does anything that that the mind would interpret as NOT RIGHT/humiliating/aggressive/negative in any way)I can start showing: anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt out of fear. It will all be attempts from a scared ego to escape the situation by using one or all of these manipulations or attacking modalities. So far it is how the world functions. That's how we do due to conditioning and fear. Because it is NOT ACCEPTABLE to the mind to have guns pointing in the face. It SHOULD NOT BE like that, so we have to resist it somehow.
If someone points a gun at me (or does anything that the mind would interpret as NOT RIGHT/humiliating/aggressive/negative in any way)I can start showing: joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith, because I KNOW there's nothing at stake here. If this body goes - my REAL SELF will be perfectly untouched, since it is invulnerable and eternal. I have realized nothing is at stake, so I can show faith and trust and ACCEPT that there's a gun pointing at me. There's not much fear in this, is it? It's total acceptance of WHAT IS. From this place - there's a greater chance of a creative outcome, since Silence will be operating without the distortion of a frighetened mind.
See, this is what Gandhi did.
This is what is practiced in martial arts like Ki-aikido. Love the attacker and he melts! Da Force and Love conquers all.
But we won't have the guts to stand there with an open heart before we have SEEN the mechanisms of the mind and are determined not to play its games anylonger.
I can take care of my body with an evil wolf protecting it or I can let a good wolf just plainly... do what it does, which might be taking really good care of my body.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2008 : 01:45:16 AM
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Neli, I'm sorry if my tone sounded angry. I'm not mad or angry at you at all. I just try to put more clearly what I mean. I also recognize that when two persons speak from different perspectives it's very difficult to find a common platform to talk from. I think that is the case here.
You are entitled to your opinions, and as long as you state clear questions I try to answer them the best I can from my perspective. I assure you, there's no anger in it. I might just be very lousy in putting it forward in a clear way. I'm practicing! Please forgive my weakness in communicating from my perspective. |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2008 : 11:02:09 PM
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emc,
Don't worry, and thanks for clarifying your point of view. Your are very right, its hard to talk from different perspectives or points of views, but at this point is where we can catch the ego, be it the good one or the bad one (wolf). The only way that I can catch my ego is talking to others that have a different perspective, and when I catch my ego I try to control it or to understand it, or to put it down.
I'm also practicing, and also felt offended by a joke days back, but it was not me, but my ego(bad wolf) that felt offended, but thanks to someone I could open my eyes and defeat my ego immediately, and I felt great ! I mean that resentment that I have felt, faded away immediately and love took its place. It's like magic.
Switching resentment to love, that's what I have learnt recently and I feel so great!
Thanks a lot for communicating from your own perspective or point of view, I appreciate it a lot.
Thanks also for helping me grow!
Love is always present in this site! That's what I love the most.
Jesus was very right LOVE is the answer for everything.
Kind Regards
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Neli, I'm sorry if my tone sounded angry. I'm not mad or angry at you at all. I just try to put more clearly what I mean. I also recognize that when two persons speak from different perspectives it's very difficult to find a common platform to talk from. I think that is the case here.
You are entitled to your opinions, and as long as you state clear questions I try to answer them the best I can from my perspective. I assure you, there's no anger in it. I might just be very lousy in putting it forward in a clear way. I'm practicing! Please forgive my weakness in communicating from my perspective.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2008 : 07:20:00 AM
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I do agree with Neli in that our assertive, self-defense sytems, are totally appropriate and necessary. Our 'ego' is not a bad wolf to be destroyed and starved. Of course, the story doesn't say this -- the 'bad wolf' of the story represents a set of bad qualities.
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Cherokee philosophy
