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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 5:21:48 PM
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Not sure of a synonym, but when a train is derailed that means it comes off the tracks and starts heading off in unknown directions. (I work for the railroad ) |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 16 2008 5:22:50 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 5:21:59 PM
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Oh...I got it...rail...as in track....so you mean "off tracking" ?  |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 5:23:12 PM
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we cross posted again
Sorry! |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 5:23:24 PM
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| Yeah you got it! |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 5:25:08 PM
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No worries, Carson
All roads lead to Rome (home) |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 7:36:11 PM
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Carson,
quote:
Yes I remember that part of the Bible story well, and I even remember Jesus getting mad at the money lenders in the church, but I don't think that contradicts what I am saying here...A truely enlightened being would at some point have to get to a point where emotions are left behind.
I don't think emotions are left behind at all. Nothing is left behind. Everything is.
Enlightenment's a hard concept to grasp, and perhaps it's even incapable of being grasped. It must be experienced. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 12:24:34 AM
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Emotions other than love. What other emotions could be of use to an enlightened being?
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 08:12:19 AM
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| I agree with you in theory, but in reality, enlightenment might be different than what we believe it to be. |
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apachechief
Ireland
65 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 09:35:12 AM
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Years ago, when I was trying to understand who I was, what I was; reading this book and doing that workshop, etc., I found myself very disappointed,confused and frustrated. So, disillusioned with the whole scene, I just fell away from it all; stopped focussing on the need to know more. It was only then that I began to understand a little about myself. In the same way that silence has its own sound, nothingness has its own consciousness. But if we seek it out, we just move further away from the very essence........
Bummer, now I'm confused again.....
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 10:35:54 AM
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Hi Scott,
Ok....I don't disagree with you there...but there are different levels of enlightenment right? We can agree on that I think...So if there are different degrees, then there has to be a highest, "perfect" enlightenment right? Maybe it's not possible for a "human" to attain that level while on "3D" Earth, and only the Source can be this level, but then what is the second top level? Probably something along the lines of having no emotion but love? This is what I'm trying to get across....Don't know if I've succeeded yet, but I eagerly await more conversation.
Hi apachecheif,
Yes...the quest for knowledge can be a double edged sword, totally agree. While it may be nice to fill our heads with statistics and language and intelligent ideas, it is only when we let go of all of that, that can we truely start to understand our Selves. That Self being the silent conciousness of the "nothingness". Seek nothing other than liberation from the seeking.
Love,
Carson |
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mufad
44 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 11:14:44 AM
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Hi Carson,
From a dualistic viewpoint, if god is perfect, all knowing, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, then he should be simultaneously aware of each sparrow that flies and each leaf that falls, every blade of grass, every atom in the universe and every thought of every being at every time. So I believe he should be able to ace any test if he wants to but he wants nothing.
From a non dual perspective, enlightenment is becoming one with that god, or finding out that there was no separation in the first place. So I believe that an enlightened person is one who is one with the one who is one. He should be able to ace any test.
My belief is subject to refinement and change as I do not believe that I am enlightened yet. Heck I don’t care what I believe and am ready to throw away all beliefs to experience nothing. Belief to me is the great curse of humanity and simultaneously the great hope of humanity, another paradox.
quote:
I still have a hard time believing that SwamiG is a truely enlightened being after reading through all her complaining and such over having to still do things for herself and not being waited on hand and foot by her devotees. She may be on her way to enlightenment as we all are, and she may have the ability to transfer Shakti energy to others, but she has not transcended her ego nor her emotions it seems. And to me, someone living in 24/7/365 bliss would not be speaking the way she does, but would be able to be unattached to the suffering of this world.
Exactly, that is/was my dilemma. Swamig says she experience emotions like anger etc but they are just in the moment and it is not held on to and next moment they may be totally calm, having forgotten all about the anger. Swamig justifies herself by saying that even Christ exhibited anger so it is okay for an enlightened person to show anger. I don’t know about Christ but that statement to me is an admission of her anger. I believe that to have an emotion like anger overcome one, requires that person to be unconscious in that moment of anger, an enlightened person cannot become unconscious even for a moment so there is no possibility of anger. The bhagvat gita defines one of the qualities of an enlightened person as one who is free from anger.
quote:
One whose mind is undisturbed by distress, without desires for happiness, free from attachment, fear and anger, that sage is known as steadfast in consciousness.
Bhagvat Gita - Chapter 2 verse 56
About living in 24/7/365 bliss, swamig says she has left behind the bliss to enter realisation. She says bliss has nothing to do with realisation as it is an experience and is not permanent. Sometimes while complaining about her students, she says that she has sacrificed the bliss and is keeping her body in order to help students rather than merging into bliss. When I mentioned that if god is “Sat Chit Ananda” then bliss or Ananda should be present in realisation, she changed her previous stand by saying that realisation is 100% bliss and it can never be understood in duality.
Here is what she wrote about bliss http://guruswamig.com/loveblissguruji.html and here is what the supposedly realised sages have to say about bliss http://guruswamig.com/loveblisssages.html
Thank You dear Yogani for contributing to this topic, would you like to comment on “can there be realisation without bliss”
It felt so good to believe that I had finally found a living guru who could take me to realisation, but then it seems we did not deserve each other !
Thank You,
Mufad.
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 11:45:40 AM
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Carson,
quote:
Ok....I don't disagree with you there...but there are different levels of enlightenment right? We can agree on that I think...So if there are different degrees, then there has to be a highest, "perfect" enlightenment right?
The way I define it, there's one enlightenment. It's the complete shift in perception where "you" aren't existing from the ego any more. Of course tons of other things can happen as a result of spiritual practices, and people can use the word enlightenment for any of those things.
So, to each his own on the definition.
quote:
Maybe it's not possible for a "human" to attain that level while on "3D" Earth, and only the Source can be this level, but then what is the second top level? Probably something along the lines of having no emotion but love? This is what I'm trying to get across....Don't know if I've succeeded yet, but I eagerly await more conversation.
These are all concepts that don't really have a basis in reality. "The map is not the place". To get a good map of enlightenment, you have to experience it. I did once...caught a glimpse, so that experience was useful in getting the idea of what enlightenment is and isn't. Before that, I could have come up with tons of different ideas and beliefs about what it could be...and of course I did.
But it's really not as cool as we think beforehand. I'm sure it will surprise you. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 12:14:26 PM
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Hi Mufad,
I think we are on the exact same page. A truely God Realized being would be able to ace any test. There is no information in existance that this being would not have immediate access to in my opinion. But you are right, the paradox of beliefs being both the curse and the hope is very true. Unable to be understood within a dualistic perspective.
About anger....I totally agree with you again...What on earth could a God Realized being have to be angry about? And would this being if it DID feel anger not just let that feeling float by noticed by unheeded?
I really don't know about SwamiG after reading those threads you posted. There DEFINITELY are different levels to "realization" and I really don't think she is on the right track anymore. Maybe it is just that she is definitely not the guru for me, but a lot of what she says I take real issue with. She contradicts herself so often, and she does so with such an egotistical attitude it just flabergasts me. How can one complain about staying on Earth to help people? If it causes her so much suffering, why would she not change things up? It';s like she thrives on suffering and complaining about it. Not very gurulike in my eyes. But if she is helping some people, then that's great. Helping them to where I dunno, but if they are happy, hell, who am I to judge?
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 12:17:31 PM
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Hi Scott,
I have no expectations for my personal enlightenment, it will be what it will be, but if you think that enlightenment has only one level, and that level is the level of egolessness, how can you think that SwamiG is enlightened? Everything I have ever read of her has been absolutely littered with ego. Ego and suffering because of the cross she has to bear....did Christ complain as he carried his cross to Calvary? Not to anyone but himSelf/God.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 17 2008 12:21:19 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 12:27:01 PM
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Mufad said:
Swamig says she experience emotions like anger etc but they are just in the moment and it is not held on to and next moment they may be totally calm, having forgotten all about the anger. Swamig justifies herself by saying that even Christ exhibited anger so it is okay for an enlightened person to show anger.
I'm sure it's bad for people to believe they have become like Christ.
If Jesus believed he had become "like Christ", I believe it was bad for him too.
I'm not sure it is good either for people to believe they are becoming like Christ. It's not just that it isn't true.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 12:36:03 PM
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"I'm sure it's bad for people to believe they have become like Christ"
This is what I'm talking about being filled with ego still. If she thinks she is comparable to Christ then she certainly isn't!
Love,
Carson |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 12:37:29 PM
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Mufad said:
Sometimes while complaining about her students, she says that she has sacrificed the bliss and is keeping her body in order to help students rather than merging into bliss.
She's gunning to hit our Divine Mother archetype and our Jewish Mother stereotype at the same time.
(P.S. Irish mothers are the very same. )
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 17 2008 4:26:14 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 1:28:26 PM
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Hi All:
Being of a practical type, I prefer to view definitions of enlightenment in terms of its essential observable constituents that can be cultivated within us in practices. Otherwise, and pardon me for saying so, it is just a lot of talk.
By "essential observable constituents," I mean stillness, ecstatic conductivity, and the blending of these two in outpouring divine love and unity. In AYP, we have focused on developing an effective integration of practices that can cultivate all three of these over time. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, not in the speculation about it.
As for enlightenment without bliss, well, I suppose if stillness did not move one iota, there would be no sensation of anything, but that is hard to imagine for anyone who is alive and experiencing stillness moving naturally into action. Then we know ourselves to be blissful silence, and the movement is an ecstatic outpouring of love. In my opinion, these are qualities of enlightenment, paradox and all.
So, no, I don't think enlightenment can be known without an inherent sense of joy, because That is what we are. One may be able to throw lightning bolts all around, and zing people's inner energy too. But without joy, it doesn't mean much, does it?
Even the stodgiest of saints can agree on that point. Enlightenment is stillness, which naturally emanates as joy, even though nothing is really moving at all. 
The guru is in you.
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mufad
44 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 1:59:05 PM
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Namaste Yogani,
Thank You for this.
Can there be a negative type of stillness that does not flow as bliss or love ?
Do you have any comments about the right front side of chest that swamig calls as the spiritual heart center ?
Could a falling of consciousness into the heart center offer a freedom from thoughts, perceived as stillness, but far from enlightenment ?
The features of the sages with swamig include spontaneous uncontrollable laughter, loss of memory, loss of the old ego but developing a new type of ego.
Swamig's guru's guru is Papaji, the master in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4PZL7wg_g4 where a student receives instant enlightenment from a simple conversation with Papaji.
Thank You,
Mufad.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 2:05:47 PM
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Hi Yogani,
Thanks for your input, it's always great to hear your side of discussions like these.
So with your post above in mind, and knowing that this can be nothing BUT speculation, would you agree that someone who has unshakable stillness(an enlightened being) would have unlimited access to all knowledge? Would someone who is "One with the One that is all" be able to ace any test, technical or otherwise simply because they are one with All and therefor nothing could be unknown to them? I know this is a philosphically bent question, but it's still begs an answer.
Love,
Carson |
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mufad
44 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 2:16:28 PM
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Hi Carson,
Yogani has made it clear that according to him enlightenment does not mean perfection - see http://www.aypsite.org/260.html
He writes - "Enlightened gurus make mistakes."
Regards,
Mufad.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 2:38:48 PM
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Ok. Thanks for the link Mufad....Sometimes I feel like a bit of an idiot on the forum because I have only read (mostly) the lessons in which I am currently using in my practices. I have left the rest of the Easy Lessons book for when I am to the point where I need to add on more practices. Leaving some surprises for later I guess...That said, I haven't read evey single lesson, especially the later ones, and sometimes am arguing about stuff that is right in the lessons. Sorry.
But let me see if I have this straight....What Yogani is saying is that "Perfection is an illusion". hmmmmmmm.....I really gotta think long and hard about that one. If perfection is an illusion, and enlightenment means you can still make all the mistakes in the world, you just won't be attached to your mistakes, then doesn't this pretty much let everyone off the hook for everything? Doens't this take the responsibility for oneself aspect right out of the equation? What about "right action"? If ALL actions can be considered right actions, or if the wrong actions don't matter at all, then there would be no accountability for anything. A guru could go and rape someone, and say "I'm not attached to my actions, I don't mean what I did anymore, and it's over. I'm still enlightened." This doesn't make any sense to me.
Love,
Carson
P.S. This is why I had such a problem with Christians as a child. (I was a Christian back then myself.) I would see kids, or parents or whatever during the week act like complete jerk off's doing everything they could to make other's miserable or whatever, but then they show up at Church on Sunday and think that repenting for their sins for the past week, makes it all go away and everything is all good again. It just CAN'T work like that! |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 17 2008 2:49:31 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 3:05:07 PM
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Hi Mufad:
Personality (there will always be some) is going to shade the presentation one way or the other. But negativity cannot reside in stillness. The question is, does the person have the student's best interest at heart? Yogananda used to rant and rave at certain of his students, and then turn and wink at the others. In other words, his stillness was expressing in a certain way for the benefit of the student, with joy still radiating within and through. The video you just linked looks joyful, but I'd hesitate to call it "enlightenment." How about a nice boost for the lady? Her own surrender was the far greater part of it.
As for the right side of the heart thing, it is under the hood, which does not mean we won't notice something happening there as part of our overall unfoldment. Certain teachers may focus more there than others. It is a part of the whole. If we do not address the whole, the part will not be enough. I suspect the lady in the video found this out later on. There is no magic bullet for instant enlightenment, as much as we'd like to believe it. Boosts are available (plentiful!), if we are able to allow them. But then it takes more time in practices...
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Hi Carson:
I think an enlightened person has all knowledge in seed form, as we all do. Perhaps an enlightened person can study less to pass a test (not guaranteed). They do have to open their eyes and look at the information to make the inner connection with the objective world. It is all inside us, but the objective expression of knowledge requires an outside connection. This is what karma yoga is about. Doing and letting go. If we are not willing to let go, it will not work. Spiritual practices gradually put us in a much better position for this. Spirit has its own agenda -- maybe even to fail the test! There is knowledge in this also.
By its very nature, the search for perfect knowledge or a perfect being is an obstacle to our enlightenment. When we can let go of that, we will begin to find the real thing. That goes for seeking the "perfect guru" too. There is no such thing, except in our imagination.
The perfection comes from accepting the imperfections and carrying on. Then the truth flows through us like a tidal wave.
The guru is in you ... and everywhere outside too.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 3:43:12 PM
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Hi Yogani,
As always, I agree with you in everything but have a few questions still...
On the idea of testing of an enlightened one....Wouldn't being intimately connected with the Source of everything make it so an enlightened one would have access to ALL information? Meaning, wouldn't Self inquiry be enough? Would one really have to "study?"
I hope you understand I am not searching for anything, especially not a "perfect" guru. But is it not acceptable to strive for "perfect" enlightenment, or complete Self Realization, or however one might call it...is it not what we are all here practicing for...complete UNION? And I understand that enlightened ones will have "personality" and everything spewed from their mouths will be "tainted" by this, for good or for bad, but isn't there something more to be attained? I thought enlightenment never really could be reached....there is always more work to be done....even for an enlightened one, but wouldn't that work be to undo yet even more of their personality to become more like the Source? And is it not THIS that we are striving for? Not to be enlightened within our own personality, but to be enlightened as the ONE? The egoless, personality-less Source? Can one truely be egoless and yet still have "personality" or natural responses to occurances, including having emotions? Yet another paradox.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 17 2008 3:56:45 PM |
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mufad
44 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2008 : 3:54:09 PM
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Hi Carson,
What I hear yogani saying is that the external perfection is never attainable as different people have different definitions of perfection, but the internal awakening is the same for all. All enlightened people bring the same light of truth into the world, the way it is expressed and reflected varies.
There may be different levels of enlightenment. To me the highest level of enlightenment means all seeing, all knowing all powerful but nothing doing. Yogani says the “essential observable constituents” of enlightenment are stillness, ecstatic conductivity, and the blending of these two in outpouring divine love and unity – so it means that the more enlightened one is, the more these constituents are present.
I believe that an enlightened being is free from karma, there is no separate being there who is doing any action only the one consciousness that flows in there. If a mistake happens, then it was meant to be and it is all good in the big scheme of things.
As yogani says this is "just a lot of talk"
We perform the practices in the now, and go one step at a time, without knowing what the destination looks like, because it is here already ! It seems the closer we get to here, the more the paradoxes increase!
Love,
Mufad.
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Guru Kaliuttamananda Giri Swami Ganga Puri -SwamiG
