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mufad
44 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 12:01:48 PM
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Hi Friends,
After having practiced AYP and kriya yoga for a several years, My path lead me to Guru Swami Ganga Puri early this year ( http://guruswamig.com )
Following her all these months, I found a lot of misunderstanding, anger, negativity and complaining with that guru and now I am beginning to have serious doubts if she is really enlightened. I plan to restart AYP again.
She states that she has reached realisation through the kundalini path and she has 8 students who have reached realisation through her, since she uses yahoogroups for all communications with students the entire history of communications of these realised students is available to be viewed from the time they joined till they reached realisation. The realised students are all available for contact and they help to answer the questions posed by new students.
This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv5nIxTPifQ is of a student who reached realisation through her. Is that a real Samadhi experience or is it something else ?
One recurring theme there was that BLISS was considered as something temporary, only STILLNESS was considered as the permanent realisation. My argument there was that there could be no realisation without bliss. Sat-Chit-Anand, so bliss is a aspect of the absolute and if there is no bliss then the silence being mistaken for realisation may merely be a shift of I centre from the head to the heart (no mind, no thoughts, so stillness). What do you feel ?
I am seeking help to see clearly - I do not want to turn my back to her if she is a true guru and at the same time I do not feel comfortable with the teachings there. Is it my ego trying to resist her teachings or is there really something wrong with that path ?
Thank You,
Mufad.
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 12:48:08 PM
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Having experience with her myself, I don't necessarily think it's your ego resisting, nor is it something wrong with the path. I think there may be something wrong with Swami G, herself...although she may very well be fully realized, her character still exists in a very unconscious way for her. That results in the "misunderstanding, anger, negativity and complaining".
So I say if you are finding this to be true about her, just move on to the next teacher/teaching. Because it is showing that you won't get on well with her. But if it seems like a good path to you, then dive into it fully because I think it will take you all the way. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 1:38:11 PM
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You will read many accounts in these forums of effects like bliss coming and going. Many other effects come and go also. I don't think there is any way to know for sure if someone is "fully realized" or not, nor does it matter. It is quite possible that realization is not a static state of final achievement, but an ongoing process with different markers being passed, and those mileposts may not come in the same order for everyone.
I have learned a lot from people who were definitely NOT self realized, and also from people who were not as far along as me spiritually.
So what is important is what you are getting from people, not where they are. I think people have different levels they operate on, and most of their consciousness may often not be on their highest level. While, at the same time, someone else can sense that divine energy in them, and learn from it.
So no need to judge people, just inquire into your own path. |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 2:27:18 PM
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Mufad:
Interesting, I never knew there was so much stuff on this on You Tube. Anyway, I think it pays to own a certain amount of healthy skepticism about "spiritual" matters.
Not sure what you mean by Realization or what that video showed. Realization, from what I have read or heard, just means one has a positive transpersonal experience. In the past, you'd have that, then go write a book or create a cult. Today you set up a web site or make a video. I'm sure we'll soon see infomercials on TV extolling the bowel cleansing power of Kundalini techniques. Certainly, a big difference from Enlightenment, where you realize what has always been the case.
Da Free John, though controversial, wrote some devastating critiques of the eastern path of inwardness and esoteric experience, of course with his other hand offering his own snake oil. I've keep those critiques in mind and is one reason I gave AYP a try. Yogani has a very matter of fact approach to stuff and since he's anonymous*, there is less of a tendency to create and a support a personal mythos and all that.
Anyway, listen to your inner conscious. You can always come back later to that guru and try again. If the negativity is from yourself, your next approach may be better.
Take care...
* I wonder. There was a mathematician that wrote a bunch of papers. Turned out that the mathematician was really a group of people. Can't recall the name.
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 4:46:30 PM
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Mufad,
You remarked, “I found a lot of misunderstanding, anger, negativity and complaining with that guru and now I am beginning to have serious doubts if she is really enlightened.” You might assess what she offers by using this test: “For when God is loved by us with our whole heart and our whole spirit, then without a doubt our neighbor and everything that ought to be loved is loved rightly” (Chapter 19, FIRE OF LOVE, by Richard Rolle, an English mystic who died in 1349). Are these people “loving rightly,” Mufad?
Yogani stays anonymous in deep background, shows no picture of himself anywhere, takes an “open source” approach to spiritual development, and says “The guru is in you,” always using a small letter g. This matter of capitalization is no small matter. Guru or guru? I AM or “i am”? See the Wilder novel for a discussion of this spiritual point. (Stick it out for the chart of practices on page 209!)
On the other hand, the lady in question gives prominence to her picture and capitalizes honorics like Guru, Sage, and Swami. In fact, two titles are more to her liking: GuruSwamiG. It seems these folks are very much into authority, titles, hierarchy, gatekeeping, and self-promotion, including no hesitation to claim Enlightenment (whatever that means). As if to say: "If you miss out on us, you're blowing off your one chance of a lifetime!"
Does this second approach meet your needs? Which approach is more egoic and prideful, and which approach demonstrates power in humility? Which approach is of God?
It's always your choice.
newpov |
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glagbo
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 7:28:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jo-self
I wonder. There was a mathematician that wrote a bunch of papers. Turned out that the mathematician was really a group of people. Can't recall the name.
That would be Nicolas Bourbaki, actually, as you stated, a group of French mathematicians.
BRV. |
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mufad
44 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 11:11:19 PM
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Thank You Friends for your reply,
Scott, what makes you think it can take me all the way ? I am beginning to doubt if she and the 8 sages there are truly enlightened as they state. If there is no Love, Compassion, Bliss, can it be enlightment ? The sages there (who seem to be sure that they have reached enlightment through her) have expressed that they experience STILLNESS and not BLISS.
After doing the practices there I started to feel a vibration in the right side of chest as the practices involve focusing there instead of third eye. The colours in nature became more vivid and beautiful. But I lost to some degree the ecstatic feelings and bliss that came with AYP practices.
Newpov, I feel she is not loving rightly, but she has her excuse because that is how her guru treated her. I have posted http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=4483 with quotations citing her negativity.
Etherfish, Yes I agree there is no need to judge people and we can learn from various sources, but I feel that proclaiming herself as a guru will invite judgement from sincere students. And I have to judge her if I am to continue to follow her teachings.
She put me on moderation and said I was showing disrespect when I asked some questions, I apologised for the perceived disrespect but she said my apology was not sincere and she did not accept it. Now she has given me a period of one month outside the online ashram to decide if I want to apologise sincerely and come back after a month.
The question I want to raise here is, could a state of STILLNESS without BLISS be enlightment ? The 3 aspects of Absolute are said to be sat (truth), chit (consciousness) and Anand (bliss) – so how can there be realisation of absolute truth when there is no BLISS ? The link to the video above is an example of a person in STILLNESS – could that be realisation ?
The guru and sages there have admitted that they feel anger sometimes, the gita says that a realised person is free from anger and ego. So what is this stillness that makes them feel that they are realised ? Could it be that a heart opening causes consciousness to shift from mind to another organ, resulting in a “thoughtless state” being experienced as Stillness, but that may still be far from enlightmet/libration ?
Thank You,
Mufad.
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 11:25:30 PM
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Hi Mufad,
"What you do speaks so loudly I cannot hear what you say."
"Language is a two edged sword. It is the deed which reveals the true character."
Does their behavior demonstrate wisdom?
It boils down to perfection of character vs. enlightenment. Can one exist without the other?
To me, if there is imperfection of character, there cannot be complete enlightenment. Doesn't mean you cannot benefit from interaction with such a person.
Just have to keep things in perspective.
My understanding is that a fully realized being is completely conscious. There is no unconscious left. All seeds have been burnt.
The above are a couple of yardsticks that work pretty good for me.
Best, yb. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 11:33:17 PM
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Yes stillness can be enlightenment, but there is no standard or permanent state that is the ultimate achievement. It's an ongoing process.
But enlightened people in general are moving toward a constant outpouring of divine love. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Sep 21 2008 11:37:35 PM |
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mufad
44 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 11:43:33 PM
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Thank You YB.
I saw the imperfection (anger, misunderstanding, negativity) from the start many months ago, but since there were people who stated that they had reached realisation through her I felt that the imperfection I perceived was consciously induced to break through my ego. I felt she was feigning anger consciously to surgically operate on my ego.
Now having had more experience with her ways, I feel I had overestimated her. Her behaviour does not demonstrate wisdom if it leads to me leaving her - or does it ?
Ha Ha Ha !
Mufad.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 03:00:08 AM
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Hi mufad
You asked:
quote:
The question I want to raise here is, could a state of STILLNESS without BLISS be enlightment ?
I think this is a very important question. The other question in relation to this is "What is bliss" and how does it manifest, how does it develop, is it an energy byproduct, does it become more subtle the more one purifies, does it become so subtle that it might become un-recognisable from it's orininal strongly felt experience.
What I'm trying to get at is that one person's "bliss" might be another's "joy" or another's deeply felt "peace". When the energy of purification becomes so subtle that it is not felt or barely felt - what is left?
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Lightworker
11 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 04:35:19 AM
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Hey there, I'll just throw my 2 cents in from experience, due to there being several ways of awakening Kundalini, you can complete the routes without unblocking all your negative emotions first, I know of one high profile teacher who only teaches the straight up way (no cooling energy of system purification first) it's basically self barbecue, at the end you are definitely kundalini awakened but also far from enlightened. Anger is not a part of an enlightened persons vocabulary as I met a great man who was Enlightened, you could tell by being around him, before his physical death he never raised his voice once or broke from his peaceful state, peace always pervaded, interesting he never claimed to be a teacher or enlightened, he just encouraged you to find your way. Carrot and stick style rather than whipping. 
Remember Yogani says the guru is in you, anyone proclaiming to be a external guru is usually a fraud.
Hope this helps.  |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 10:47:36 AM
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quote:
Her behaviour does not demonstrate wisdom if it leads to me leaving her - or does it ?
Perhaps that is also overestimating her.
quote:
Scott, what makes you think it can take me all the way ? I am beginning to doubt if she and the 8 sages there are truly enlightened as they state. If there is no Love, Compassion, Bliss, can it be enlightment ? The sages there (who seem to be sure that they have reached enlightment through her) have expressed that they experience STILLNESS and not BLISS.
It's not good to assume you know what enlightenment is without being enlightened. |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 11:16:42 AM
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mufad,
Your journey is most interesting! I don't know anything about the “spiritual heart center” which is in the right side of the chest. I have heard about the sacred heart of Jesus. Do you have anything to offer on this subject?
Turning to your own situation, quote:
I felt that the imperfection I perceived was consciously induced to break through my ego. I felt she was feigning anger consciously to surgically operate on my ego.
Years ago I imagined that within esoteric traditions the truly highest masters tested, by resort to subtle lies or calculated dissembling, the merit and readiness of their students to advance to deeper knowledge or higher skills and so join with others in the Inner Circle of masters. The assessment was based upon the assumption that only students with strengths in character, discrimination, and pluck who demonstrate ability to stand up to the master and confront him with what he is doing, would then be considered worthy to receive additional teachings. A fine example of this can be seen in the Katha Upanishad (see Dialogue with Death, by Eknath Easwaran).
But now I don't believe this teaching approach is appropriate in the God quest, although it could be in the martial arts and other endeavors solely within the earth realm. I think it is bad for any teacher in the realm of heaven to withhold or meter out "higher knowledge." Judgment calls with respect to advancement are properly up to the divine, not up to fallible human teachers who--with their lingering unresolved neuroses and unconscious conflicts and control issues--may keep their students in dependency mode.
Ecstatic bliss ought to result in divine love. Well, the lady claims her enlightenment and freedom, so do you experience her divine love? Treated like a child, you were told to go stand in the corner until you could do something to appease Mommy. Were you also humiliated publicly? Did the 30 days of punishment arise out of egoic resentment and caprice, or did it originate in the divine?
Said Rolle, " In true love of God is love of our neighbor... [s]he who loves God does not know how not to love man...."
quote:
Her behaviour does not demonstrate wisdom if it leads to me leaving her - or does it ?
An outer “Guru” resorted to violence by using accusations of insincerity in order to bend your will with force. Isn't enlightenment about peace? Who needs more emotional abuse? I myself have been violent in these forums. Lightworker's posting said it better than I could. May all of us let go and turn instead to the “guru” within.
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Sep 22 2008 11:31:47 AM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 11:53:23 AM
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mufad,
Stillness vs. bliss? Here's stuff Yogani posted ... see his postscript...
quote:
quote:Originally posted by newpov
Yogani,
quote:you said: we come to know ourselves as stillness in action
Is your "stillness in action" exactly the same as what the Upanishads mean by the Self or the Atman? And, in this state does there still remain a sense of individuality?
newpov
Hi newpov:
Yes, and yes, as far as I know. That is non-duality while making no effort to deny the apparent duality of the world (including our individuality). Engaging in such denial is one of the pitfalls of the mind (see the Self-Inquiry book). Much better to accept the paradox for what it is, and let the divine pour out into it. Hence, stillness in action.
The guru is in you.
PS: Turiya (4th state of consciousness after waking, dreaming and dreamless deep sleep states) is not stillness in action. It is stillness only -- the witness. When stillness and ecstasy join, that gives rise to stillness in action -- outpouring divine love and unity.
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mufad
44 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 1:06:05 PM
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Thank You for that insight Lightworker.
Newpov,
quote:
I don't know anything about the “spiritual heart center” which is in the right side of the chest. I have heard about the sacred heart of Jesus. Do you have anything to offer on this subject?
SwamiG teaches not to focus on third eye because according to her it creates astral phenomena. She steers away from any mention of chakras, but she calls her path as the kundalini path. Her Dissolving Divisions technique is explained in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzWnHNab2ag
Chanting the "I am that I am" mantra loudly while keeping attention and energy in the right side of chest caused that area to vibrate. The "heart center" she says is symmetrically opposite to the physical heart. The physical heart being on the left and the spiritual heart being on the right. Over time that vibration has increased and I can feel it when I hear her voice or the voice of Adyashanti, Echart Tolle, Yogananda and some music also. Sometimes the vibration is there for few seconds during meditation, it is much more perceivable and constant when listening to certain sounds with my headphones. Sometimes the vibration is felt in the pelvic region (sex organ) but mostly in the right of chest. Not sure if this is progress because it does not feel blissful - just a sensation like a tiny vortex of energy or like bubbles rising up in a soda bottle. Sometimes a weight is felt in that area and it releases in a few minutes.
I hope someone can shed more light on what this is. May be we can start a new topic on this if there are any inputs on this "right heart" or "spiritual heart" center.
Answering your other questions newpov, I do not feel 'Devine Love' from her - she says what she is displaying is 'Tough Love' born out of compassion – She would say that Devine Love is an Illusion, a fairy tale and not reality, because it keeps one bound in duality.
First I saw her behaviour as the precision cut being made by a doctor to operate on the patient, but now, after seeing how carelessly she uses the knife, I doubt her wisdom. I dont mind being slapped a hundred times or apologising a thousand times if I can see how it is helping in the grand scheme of things, but now I am seeing that her lashings spring from repeated misunderstandings which do not help in any way except to point out her egoistic negativity. Like when the doctor is making random cuts on my leather jacket instead of cutting my skin where operating is needed, then I do not feel any pain but I doubt the expertise of the doctor, she could have asked me to remove the jacket and I would have gladly done that ...
Anyways, she is not trying to bend my will with force, I have no idea what she is trying to do, all I can see is an angry monster out of control, trying every trick in the book to confuse me - why ? I have no clue. Could be that she expects all students to be like lambs and not ask any questions. She says my arguments show disrespect, arrogance and many other words I cannot remember now.
So, lets get back to the original intent of this post, can there be Enlightment if there is still Anger and Absence of Bliss ? What is this Blissless Stillness that sages there are experiencing and could it be Enlightment ?
Thank You,
Mufad.
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 2:30:20 PM
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mufad,
quote:
What is this Blissless Stillness that sages there are experiencing and could it be Enlightment ?
I believe they experience turiya only, if they don't also report ecstasy. Yogani's answer: quote:
Turiya (4th state of consciousness after waking, dreaming and dreamless deep sleep states) is not stillness in action. It is stillness only -- the witness. When stillness and ecstasy join, that gives rise to stillness in action -- outpouring divine love and unity.
Additional material by Yogani may help: quote:
Inner silence is the beginning and the end. It is the beginning as the witness, and the end as stillness in action, outpouring divine love and unity. Energy (kundalini/shakti) plays a supporting role in this evolution, with a thousand by-ways which can be traveled. If there is inner silence, the by-ways will be illuminated and stabilized as part of the enlightenment process. And if inner silence is limited, the by-ways will become personal tangents leading to who-knows-where. "Gifts" will not be enlightenment in that case. That's why we suggest favoring the procedure of practice over the experiences, with deep meditation being the primary practice.
...kundalini can be addressed systematically with some more of those clinical practices, nurturing the ecstatic wings upon which inner silence flies. If the kingdom of inner silence is cultivated first, and then ecstatic energy from the center, then the gifts will flourish as part of the natural divine outflow, and everyone will benefit. That is enlightenment.
The lady dismissed the third eye as merely astral. The Revelation to John in the bible may not be so dismissive... could this bible verse refer to Yogani's root at the perineum and the third eye at the brow?
"I am the sprig from the root of David and the bright star of the morning." - Revelation 22:16b.
That is, i am = stillness; sprig = viewing of oneself as an offshoot or child of God; back and forth of spinal breathing pranayama between root and the brow or third eye = spinal nerve inducing ecstasy
"I am the sprig" may be equivalent to saying, "I live, yet not I but rather Christ lives in me." (approximate quote)
Hence the verse Revelation 22:16b may line up with what I already quoted of Yogani,
"When stillness and ecstasy join, that gives rise to stillness in action" [which is enlightenment].
Rev 22:17 -- "The spirit [stillness, shiva] and the bride [energy, ecstasy, shakti, kundalin] say come!"
That is, come to or realize bliss and all other attributes of enlightenment!
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Sep 22 2008 2:55:42 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 6:52:01 PM
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Scott said:
I think there may be something wrong with Swami G, herself...although she may very well be fully realized,
I no longer see a shred of evidence that 'fully realized' is a even a meaningful category. I believe anyone who calls themselves 'fully realized' is deluded. Anyone.
People just go through transformations. The 'transformations' appear complete to them. But they aren't. They are still limited people, all of them.
They get inflated. They get too big for their boots. Good, bad, or middling, nearly all seem to get inflated, all but very few. This has nothing to do with spirituality, with truth. It is the sacro-mythical circus. They're swept up in a set of unconscious and primitive behaviors that have been passing for 'spirituality' forever.
And it will go on. It will go on until people let go of the notion that something has happened in anyone's life which has made them perfect. It hasn't happened yet and it isn't going to happen. It's just myth. Like Adam and Eve, Apollo, Beelzebub and so on.
In 100 self-proclaimed 'fully realized' people, ~80 are simply narcissistic frauds, low in morality but high in the skills of priestcraft. ~20 of 100 have had some realization, but vastly over-estimate it, and are blind to their significant imperfections. And ~1 of 100 has had a lot of realization, development and purity but is simply deluded that their realization is full, and they are also blind to their significant imperfections. They can't shake the delusion.
Let it go folks. Truth is always better.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 22 2008 6:57:02 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 9:22:36 PM
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David,
I'm not defending SwamiG in any way, in fact I find her quite disturbing. But you sound soooooo cynical about things. "Let it go" is good advice for ALL of us.
In Love,
CarsonZi |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 10:43:17 PM
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Hi all,
quote:
I no longer see a shred of evidence that 'fully realized' is a even a meaningful category. I believe anyone who calls themselves 'fully realized' is deluded. Anyone.
"Though I command languages both human and angelic--if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing...
Now we see only reflections in a mirror, mere riddles--but then we shall be seeing face to face. Now I can know only imperfectly; but then I shall know just as fully as I am myself known."
In the mention of mirrors is he acknowledging his own narcissism? When talking about face to face, is he talking about attainment of genuine subject/object emotional connections? Subsequently, is he alluding to his perceived goal, the loss of the subject/object distinction?
THUS THIS QUESTION: Was St. Paul 'fully realized'?
Anyone up for a poll?
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Sep 22 2008 10:53:07 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 10:56:51 PM
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| We've probably all been fully realized for a moment. If we could just capture that moment and stick it on our forehead, we could start a club. |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 11:30:59 PM
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I think all teachers (gurus) resonate with different people differently....it doesn't matter whether they are "fully realized" or not (I really am not sure what "fully realized" means) ... the question is... do they bring something to the party that influences your path and that you can learn from....The Walmart cashier that says " Have a nice day" could be your most intimate guru at that moment in time.
As for St. Paul....do his words resonate with you? |
Edited by - machart on Sep 23 2008 12:19:27 AM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 12:29:49 AM
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| No etherfish, I believe yours is wishful thinking, for although I perceived timeless and endless Expanse during my initiatory TM session years ago, there was no continuation within and no modification without in the earthly realm; in fact, my life deteriorated. I cannot imagine that this peak experience qualified me as "fully realized," even "for a moment." |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 06:45:14 AM
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We tend to forget peak religious experiences as time goes on, because they can't be categorized in our memories. "Fully realized" is one of those categories. Something we imagine with our logical minds that has nothing to do with logic. Only when you return there again will you remember.
But no, it doesn't necessarily change things or improve your life, that's why it's worthless to look for it in other people. It's a classification made up by logical minds about something that has nothing to do with logic.
For instance, some people will pick out a "master" and say he is fully realized because he acts a certain way. But what is the definition of "fully realized"? Then they are just as quick to remove that title from him when he does something they don't like. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Sep 23 2008 06:56:26 AM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 08:52:32 AM
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etherfish, quote:
We tend to forget peak religious experiences as time goes on, because they can't be categorized in our memories....
Only when you return there again will you remember.
My peak experience of one microsecond occurred 38 years ago. It was memorable exactly because it couldn't be categorized--logically, emotionally, aesthetically, or otherwise--with any of my prior or subsequent earthly life.
And yes, I do long for Return. The memory draws me to Return! I have never known how to get back There. But one things is for sure: I had brought to that TM session no expectations of any sort. Perhaps this was a type of egoic surrender?quote:
... it [full realization?] doesn't necessarily change things or improve your life... some people will pick out a "master" and say he is fully realized because he acts a certain way.
I had understood that enlightenment results in greater compassion and love for oneself and ones neighbor? quote:
they are just as quick to remove that title from him when he does something they don't like.
The lesser or greater attainments of heaven or realization are not contingent on agreement by the earthly majority that these attainments are meritorious or non-illusory, are they?
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Sep 23 2008 09:14:44 AM |
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mufad
44 Posts |
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stillness vs bliss
