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Adam West
23 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 30 2005 : 02:11:34 AM
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Hi all,
Thought you might enjoy the experiences of a realized western Buddhist mystic. I find his writings very developed and succinct... quite inspirational :-) We see here the benifets of sitting meditation, resting in Bliss Consciousness.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/...ditation.htm
The Personal Experience of Ecstasy (Jhana) (October 2, 2004)
Once all six senses become resonant with their manifestations of energy, or ecstasy, then, as the meditation deepens, a kind of energy builds gently along my spine. During the deepening of my meditation I notice a progression of increasing concentration and corresponding expanding awareness, which often causes a bit of a shift in my focus and my breathing at discrete moments. I have found if I flow spontaneously with these shifts, then various absorption states unfold. For more on the absorption states (jhanas) please see this article:
Recognizing the Absorption States (October 16, 2004)
Often after the gentle building of energy, shock waves like a deep shiver jolt up my spine at intermittent intervals, at which time my fingers and lips may twitch and my torso becomes very erect. This sudden increase in energy often causes the period of the oscillations of my torso and head to become more rapid in the same way a guitar string oscillates more rapidly if drawn taught. In company with the shock waves is usually a sensation of intense ecstasy, which culminates in a sense of luminosity. Often these "energy" jolts last only fifteen minutes to a half hour, however some times they can be sustained for up to 3 hours for a single "jolt."
The shifts in focus and breathing seem to precede the surges up the spine, which can be of sufficient force as to give me the sensation as though I'm going to be lifted off the pillow. At times this energy rising up my spine can be so intense that is feels as if my brain would pop out of the top of my head. This experience can be a bit disconcerting at times, but that is when I have found it is best to practice non-grasping to even the body. This energy is often described in the Yoga Sutras as kundalini.
As this energy surges up my spine I undergo another series of shifts in focus, which eventually concludes in a wall of light that impinges on my psyche to the point of overwhelming my identity. At that moment it seems even identity must be relinquished as well. It seems that the trajectory is to get to a place where one doesn't cling to anything, not even to identity. It is this experience that seems to be what the historic Buddha called cessation (nibbana), because at that point there is no self, nor any observable phenomena, just simply awareness.
I have been meditating thus 3 to 4 hours a day for several years now. Every time I sit I enjoy some part or all of the above sensations. I have found that when I begin and end each day with these pleasant sensations my days and nights are filled with charisms (jhana-nimitta), as well as pleasant thoughts and feelings.
I have also found that there seems to be a saturation effect, in which the sensations of these ecstasies remain with me even after the meditation is over. It is through a daily meditation practice in which I revisit these ecstasies that I fill each moment with mindful observation of these pleasant sensations. Consequently bliss and equanimity pervade or permeate my waking and sleep state. In fact from the moment I first become aware of this body, until the moment that sleep overcomes this body, I am filled with more happiness and contentment than I can recall ever having. And I am always filled with the sweetest sensation of love, as though I have a new romance, but there is no object to my love. For more on becoming saturated with the pleasure and joy of meditation, please see this article:
A Pleasure that is not of the Senses (Jhana)
This practice and these sensations have even pervaded my sleep state to the point that I no longer lose conscious when the body rests at night. As I rest the body at night I observe mindfully the progression of my repose, which is a succession of deepening relaxation, and lengthening or slowing breath, until there is a flash of blackness and a timelessness in which I lose awareness of the body. Eventually lucid experiences arise and move one from the next throughout the night. These lucid experiences or "dreams" by the way are as lucid as the waking reality. Eventually around 4 AM each morning I become aware of the body again. I rise and sit in meditation for an hour or two before I begin my day. For more on a lucid sleep state please see this article:
Rapture in Buddhism, Manomaya, the "mind-made body." The Buddha's Discourses on the Astral Body and Out-of-Body (OOB) experiences (updated November 09, 2004)
The pervasion of my awareness into my sleep domain has also produced a kind of shattering of my sense of reality, as well as producing a lack of dependence upon a linear time/space domain. My lucid sleep domain experiences are often so lucid as to be indistinguishable from what we call "waking reality." Consequently, even though I "awake" every morning to this "reality, I frequently "awaken" to other seamlessly real and equally engaging realities when the body sleeps. But these "realities" are not in this space/time domain. The consequence is that I cannot with conviction state that this reality is any more real than the other realities that I encounter.
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2005 : 10:01:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam West
Hi all,
These lucid experiences or "dreams" by the way are as lucid as the waking reality. Eventually around 4 AM each morning I become aware of the body again. I rise and sit in meditation for an hour or two before I begin my day. For more on a lucid sleep state please see this article:Rapture in Buddhism, Manomaya, the "mind-made body." The Buddha's Discourses on the Astral Body and Out-of-Body (OOB) experiences (updated November 09, 2004)
The pervasion of my awareness into my sleep domain has also produced a kind of shattering of my sense of reality, as well as producing a lack of dependence upon a linear time/space domain. My lucid sleep domain experiences are often so lucid as to be indistinguishable from what we call "waking reality." Consequently, even though I "awake" every morning to this "reality, I frequently "awaken" to other seamlessly real and equally engaging realities when the body sleeps. But these "realities" are not in this space/time domain. The consequence is that I cannot with conviction state that this reality is any more real than the other realities that I encounter.
Hello Adam, Its interesting that the practice of Lucid Dreaming has cropped up I have tried this with success and the technique is quite simple and should be easily in the range of anyone who is practicing AYP, i.e. If I can do it anyone can.
I wont go into the technique as it is easy to find if you Google it. Im not too sure that it can be called a spiritual practice and I am a little concerned at the dangers of it. When you are in a lucid state it is reality and practically impossible to tell from the state we are in day to day except you can do anything you like with anybody you like.
In my case I had the disturbing experience of waking up three times or at least thinking I had only to find I was still dreaming.
The memories are as vivid as memories from our day to day life and difficult to separate from them, here lies the danger, false memories can be created. It could also be the perfect vehicle for the worst kind of self indulgences.
It would be interesting to hear what Yogani has to say about the practice. I am sure it could be used as a spiritual practice but I am not quite sure how.
Blessings
RICHARD |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2005 : 11:58:51 AM
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Hi Adam,
thanks for the intersting stuff. It sounds like some pretty interesting stuff is happening to that guy.
If I knew him personally, I'd have a few words of maybe wisdom in his ear. He seems to be finding himself and his message being 'repressed'
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/...m/goenka.htm
I'd tell him that the insecurity of 'gurus' is indeed everywhere. They *are* (most of them) threatened by realization which they think will go beyond their own. But it's nothing to fuss about, and write long critical tracts about. It's just all part of samsara. What did he expect, that he would go to a retreat with an insecure-alpha-male leader and the leader would not be threatened because he can't feel dominant over him? That's just all part of Samsara.  Like going to a sailor's bar and writing a tract about how there were some women of ill-repute to be found there. No need to fuss. 
-David |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 30 2005 12:28:58 PM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2005 : 3:11:33 PM
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Hey All,
I, like Richard have had plenty of experiences with lucid dreaming. (Lucidinterval?) To me it became very important spiritually. While "awake" in a lucid dream, I was floored with the possibilities. I could touch, smell, taste with better perception than the "real" world. The laws of physics do not exist. You can walk through walls, fly over trees - do anything that you concentrated on. Yes, it can be distracting spiritually and since I began AYP I haven't practiced lucid dreaming at all - although it still happens spontaneously from time to time.
The important thing about lucid dreaming and astral travel to me was a shift in perception. I mean lucid dreaming seems actually more real than daily life. So I was forced to ask what is real? It is experiential knowledge that there is much more to this life than what our normal senses convey to us in everyday living.
I appreciate posts like this as it gives us insight as to how others perceive things as they progress along the spiritual path. It is not going to be the same for any 2 people.
Paul |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2005 : 10:34:23 PM
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Hi Adam,
That makes for two great links you have provided recently.
After reading the article through to the end, as some of it was missing from your post, my impression of it changed as I went along.
The experiences that he shares are clearly great for others to know about. I did however, get the impression that he may be over-doing things a bit. As he states, all he wants to do is meditate and he has no interest in the world around him. Ironically, he even states that he feels out of balance. I might be misunderstanding his rationalization of this but I get the impression he thinks it is a bi-product of states of euphoria rather than being drunk on it! The whole experience and attitude of it sounds a bit like yoga before tantra evolved out of it. Meaning living the life of the renunciate and not wanting to be in this world. What is the point of incarnating then? I don't think detachment necessarily means disinterest.
To me, one of the great messages of AYP is to bring your meditation experiences into the world and experience the joy in living.
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Adam West
23 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2005 : 02:01:08 AM
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Hi Anthem11 and all,
Anthem11 wrote: "After reading the article through to the end, as some of it was missing from your post"
Yep it is a long article... so I cut it and left the link so the rest could be accessed along with his other articles, of which there are many :-)
Anthem11 wrote: "all he wants to do is meditate and he has no interest in the world around him"
Mmm, I saw that also and the physical imbalance, due to hyper-sensativity, I think he says amonst other things :-) Yep, I think the emphasise on detachment is a Buddhist cultural phenomina... but I also see it as genuine out growth of his spiritual growth. He claims now he just lives... experiences... with out attachment or predjudice. This seems to have come about as he suggests due to his realization of pure awareness, which is implicitly without need or dependent on material plane experience or preferences of any kind. Further more, he seems to experience reality in such a way that the concrete nature of the physical plane as being 'real' and his true home or where is lives or 'exists' has been undermined to such a degree that the very perception as held by the mass populations is simply seen as erronious; this it would seem is due to his continuious and unbroken conscious awareness from physical reality right through the sleep cycle, where he becomes fully aware of himself as a spiritual entity, both individualized, and also as a universal consciousness without source or location within space-time (as described in other articles). Thus we can see, if such a perceptual shift were to take place, we may have little reason to be attached or indeed show preference to this reality or any other. Perhaps on a evolutionary level, he as out grown the spiritual benifets of this reality... perhaps this is our inevitable conclusion, sooner or later, as the training wheels come off and we shift our focus on to other cosmic vistas :-) Perhaps not...! I leave it up to you and your meditational revalations.... ;-) That said, I certainly agree with balance as espoused by AYP and Tantric philosophy :-)
In kind regards,
Adam. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2005 : 10:37:01 AM
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BAD-COP SPEAKS
"Enlightenment is not entitlement"
Hello Adam and others, I really do like and appreciate the opportunity to hear about another teacher/realizer.
I have found this man interesting and have taken a closer look. My conclusion is that there are somewhat more insidious 'imbalances' in operation than the one you mention.
I think he is making a big mistake, a very important mistake, and I think it is playing out in problems in how he is relating to the 'Sangha' (spiritual body of Buddhist practicioners) at large.
The center of his mistake is, I think, an expectation that having enlightenment experiences, or even getting deeply enlightened (which I doubt he is, psychologically anyway), entitles you to anything in this life --- particularly regarding how you are received by other people. He might seem to be expecting that all ears will turn to him now because of his 'great wisdom' which his 'processes' have afforded him. But I see signs that he is significantly short on wisdom in relating to the Sangha at large.
If you probe a little deeper, his entire posture (relative to the Sangha) is of a self-styled heroic realizer against the mediochrities. This is pretty-much always an immature posture. You can see all this in his claims to being ostracised, and 'suppressed' by the Sangha. His difficulties with the Sangha, who is not so quick to bow down to his majesty, are right up there on his website, and evidently high up in his mind. His website says 'Look what they are doin' to me! They just can't recognize me, the envious mediochre creeps '
>> He claims now he just lives... experiences... with out attachment or predjudice. This seems to have come about as he suggests due to his realization of pure awareness, which is implicitly without need or dependent on material plane experience or preferences of any kind.
He may indeed so claim, but it is absolutely clear (from what he puts up there himself) that he is not free from attachment, nor prejudice. Look at his response to this other fellow, Ingmar:
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/...m/Ingmar.htm
Jhanananda responds: (my underlines)
quote:
Thank-you kind Igmar for your generous post. While you seem to me quite sure of your experience, learning and lineage, I find it somewhat troubling that your letter to me appears to assume my learning, lineage and experience is not up to the quality of yours. It is clear to me that we have some disagreements based on our different life experiences, but that does not however tell me that your process has been inferior or superior to my own. I can only say that my 30 years of daily meditation practice and 50 some-odd silent meditation retreats, led by many, I am sure, equally skilled teachers as yours, has simply brought me to quite a different conclusion than your own.
Because you place your insight, training and lineage in a superior position with respect to mine, I assume that you must have enjoyed a sadana superior to mine. Which means you must have sustained a formal daily, silent sitting practice for more than 30 years. That you have sat more than twice a day, for an hour each sit. And, you must have sat well over 50 silent retreats (not those chatty kind of devotional and ritual intensive Vajrayana affairs they call retreats). Excellent, congratulations on your fine and productive sadana. But, if you have had such an intense and dedicated practice for so long, you must have arrived at similar experiences to mine, therefore I wonder why you have a conflict with what I have to say here?
In fact, and the email is all there to read, this fellow Ingmar merely dared to disagree with Jhanananda. There is no direct odious assumption of superiority by Ingmar as far as I can see, or maybe just that little that is just a part of Ingmar's assumption because of his training -- just part of life and to be ignored. I deal happily with people all the time whom I think may believe themselves to be 'senior' or superior to me in various ways. Why would that be my problem?
Jhanananda has done nothing less than *fight* in response to disagreement. This other fellow Ingmar, is not agreeing with Jhanananda; Jhanananda takes it as a personal threat to his majesty, and proceeds to try to one-up Ingmar! Jhanananda uses his training and experience as ammunition to intimidate his rival. Wow, what kind of Dharma is that? His answer to Ingmar is basically "Disagree do you? How dare you think you are superior to me!? Oh yeah? Have you done anything like the practice I have? Cos if you did, obviously you would agree with me!"
And this is in what Jhanananda has put up himself on his own website, as evidence of how the Sangha is treating him badly!!
The truth is, I think, from what I can see at least, that Jhanananda has personality problems that are not quite under control -- the problems are quite active and to the forefront. He is not being ostracized for being a misunderstood genius -- he's just expecting great reception while not getting it, and other people see him as a dharma-bully, which he certainly seems to be to me, just from what he writes himself.
People change though. Jhanananda should neither be believed to be something greater than he is at his point, nor written off as worthless. I appreciate some of the things he said, in fact, and his insights are interesting. The process of enlightenment may pull him out of his big mistake in time, and I hope they do, then he will probably blossom.
The danger of developing an 'entitled' mindset because of one's experience and assumed realization is significant and all the traditions warn against it. Many 'cults' are formed largely because the founder gets into that mistake.
By the way, I think we have a very nice group here. Very supportive. No bullies, no 'God-kings'. And still capable of expressing disagreement. And may we all continue to be this way.
We have to be ready though for the inevitable fact that some 'God-kings' will start to enter the forum at some point, as it gets bigger. These are people who will think themselves very special and that they are entitled to a high status, a big audience and general agreement with their views.
Blessings,
-David |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 31 2005 12:33:44 PM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2005 : 3:24:03 PM
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Hmmmm. Interesting dialogue here.
I read through this mans web link with a little different perspective though. I found his practices and experiences to be very interesting. There is a lot of information here on techniques and results. These are real life meditation experiences journaled for interpretation.
Now obviously this man does not have his ego under control which I believe is a precursor to enlightenment. Personality complexes can be a real detriment to spiritual growth. (See link) http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=395
Look at how selfless Yogani is! I think that you will see that pattern of selflessness in all of the Great Masters.
But, that being said, he does have some pretty positive attributes as well. Talk about real bhakti!
With Peace,
Paul |
Edited by - lucidinterval1 on Aug 31 2005 3:27:59 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2005 : 6:13:07 PM
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Hello Paul,
he does certainly have good sides and I appreciate his insights.
quote:
Originally posted by lucidinterval1
Now obviously this man does not have his ego under control which I believe is a precursor to enlightenment. Personality complexes can be a real detriment to spiritual growth. (See link) http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=395
Look at how selfless Yogani is! I think that you will see that pattern of selflessness in all of the Great Masters.
The very last temptation of Buddha was an appeal to his pride:
quote:
It is said that Mara, the evil one, tried to prevent this great occurrence. He first tried to frighten Siddhartha with storms and armies of demons. Siddhartha remained completely calm. Then he sent his three beautiful daughters to tempt him, again to no avail. Finally, he tried to ensnare Siddhartha in his own ego by appealing to his pride. That, too, failed. Siddhartha, having conquered all temptations, touched the ground with one hand and asked the earth to be his witness.
I've sometimes wonder if the chronology in thay myth became a little garbled. Perhaps Siddharth conquered his pride by asking the earth to be his witness?
A 'mythical view' that I like to take is that we cannot become enlightened without asking everyone and everything, and the earth itself, to be witness to it; this is as if we require consent or permission, or a push, from everyone and everything, in order for us to become enlightened (I obviously don't mean this literally).
If this view were taken by this man, I think he'd be free of so many of the kinds of problems he is facing. Who is going to project a fighting or hostile attitude to those from whom the ultimate favor is required?
-D
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Adam West
23 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2005 : 6:44:38 PM
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Hey David,
Unfortunately, I don't have time to give your most enjoyable and comprehensive post the time it deserves.... :-) I think you make some very good points and I suspect you have found evidence of the 'process' of realization that is not yet complete.... Certainly, ego (a particular self-perception and way of seeing and relating to the universe) is something that is very, very difficult to completely transform... Personally I think there is no known person in public view who has completely transcended all patterns of ego and it is a very good lesson to us all, by way of this possible example to not allow ourselves to get too complacent.
It is clear that we all have many transparent beliefs; they are transparent because we are unconscious of them and they are the foundations of our point of view. It seems to me, as we progress along the path, we expose these beliefs to the light of inner wisdom (pure bliss consciousness) and they dissolve like so much impermanent crystallizations; yet we may go months or years before some of the very deep foundational beliefs are 'triggered', challenged and brought to the surface by internal progress and external (circumstantial) stimulation. Thus in this way we can progress far along the path and still have significant internal obstructions... from my perspective, it is most helpful to keep this in mind, as it undermines the solidification of the ego which actually gets stronger, yet more subtle as we spiritually develop (in the relative early stages - lasting over multiple life times, then of course this is eventually resolved) as it sees it's progress and identifies with 'it' being the cause of said progress, thus it being superior to others and their lack of progress.
Spiritual glamour is a massive obstruction to everyone on the path... one of the last things to go.. and often the hardest.
David thank you for reminding me of this most important point :-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
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Locrian
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2005 : 12:34:21 AM
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Hi. I'm kind of jumping in late on the conversation here but I actually kind of know this guy (as do a couple of others on the forum). He is a nice enough guy, but he does get VERY fired up over defending his bliss. Most of his problems with the buddhist community stem from what is seen as an "addiction" to these states.
He is definitely a unique individual...I'll give him that lol.
I am *shocked* at how perceptive people were...just from reading one of his sites lol.
A while ago he decided to sell all of his stuff and live in this van (that doesn't sound like it is in the best shape) in order to meditate all of the time. He touts that he has 3 degrees, but I guess the bliss is so enticing that he no longer works. He kind of lives off of donations, food stamps, and collecting wild seeds. I always kind of thought he'd balance out one of these days, but he just seems hell bent to prove a point...
Sounds rough to me, but i wish him the best!
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Edited by - Locrian on Nov 02 2005 07:22:59 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2005 : 5:24:59 PM
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Thanks for reawakening this post, Paula.
Adam said:
>> Spiritual glamour is a massive obstruction to everyone on the path... one of the last things to go.. and often the hardest.
'Spiritual glamour' is a great way to put it. One thing I am working on right now is the question of whether all or nearly all the traditions make a mistake of cultivating, in one way or another, the glamour of spirituality... by building up the idea of the spiritually awake person as being a 'great person', implicitly or explicitly deserving of great adulation...
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Locrian
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2005 : 2:42:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Thanks for reawakening this post, Paula.
HAHA, you serious? 
quote:
'Spiritual glamour' is a great way to put it. One thing I am working on right now is the question of whether all or nearly all the traditions make a mistake of cultivating, in one way or another, the glamour of spirituality... by building up the idea of the spiritually awake person as being a 'great person', implicitly or explicitly deserving of great adulation...
People are goofy that way. To a degree, I think we want someone to be exalted because it relieves us of personal responsibility and pushes it back on the "guru." I can see a certain amount of comfort in thinking that so-and-so knows everything, and therefor can tell me how to get there and can also tell me when I have "arrived!" Then after I have arrived, I really need others to stand at my feet so it feels real, you know...so i can convince myself that I do know and I have attained *something*.
It perpetuates itself, like ego in motion lol.
Do you think it is fear of ownership? It seems that people tend to look towards books, towards gurus, towards the masses all to avoid that inner knowing and ownership of ones life. Even with Jeff (jhanananda)...it seems that he has to point to his books and references to prove that he is right in staying in bliss, almost as if it is he himself that he is trying to convince. I shouldn't lean on intuition as much as I do, but I feel that if the entire buhddist community turned to him and said "what an error on our part! You are definitely right," that he would still be trying to prove his point because he himself isn't convinced.
Do you need a book to tell you that it is a nice day outside? would it matter if 100,000 people told you today really sucks and you must be high? Heck no! If I think it's a nice day...that's mine and I'm taking it 
the whole question reminds me of grateful dead lyrics:
"You who choose to lead must follow,
But if you fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?"
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Locrian
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2005 : 2:53:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
of interest:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyo...ces/258.html
I just read this link, and it reminded me of what I like so much about Yogani...
He never tells anyone what they should see, he just says go and look for yourself.
That is so rare nowdays...and he gets big kisses for it  (haha, I'm such a dork) |
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