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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 11 2008 : 08:51:39 AM
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Can someone who's practicing yoga, and has attained to a certain level of energy, transcend sexual desire? If this yogi pretends to have succeeded in controlling his desire by understanding its mechanism mentally, by observing porno movies and watching how this affects or not his energy, isn't it a great mistake and delusion?
How long can this person remain in this initially "self-imposed" celibacy?
Thank you to anybody who will help... |
Edited by - AYPforum on Sep 11 2008 08:52:21 AM |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2008 : 3:55:41 PM
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Of course its possible, but very unlikely in my opinion. Two keys are:
1. Energy level
2. Where desire comes from.
Energy levels change. Plus, energy level does not equate to spiritual maturity and control (See Wilbur's writings on structure). Just to verify look up how many guru's and enlightened masters have been caught with their twinkie in the wrong places. Whats some of the excuses, "I was giving shaktipat..." Same thing happens with clergy who molest people, I'm sure their energy level was ok until they found themselves in an authoritive commanding situation that allowed some hidden stuff to come out.
Desire doesn't only come from within. It can be invoked by external factors like circumstances, pheromones and all that. Plus, watching a movie or pictures is not the same as having the real thing in front of you.
Unless your a monk or doing some weird sadhana, why even bother with this controlling goal? Naturally after some stages there will be a lack of libido, all the energy leaves the lower chakra, but that is temporary. Else, spiritual practice would be the end of humanity.
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2008 : 01:49:12 AM
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Thank you.
I'm asking this because the person I'm talking about is ... my husband! And it's been one year I've been suffering from this celibacy, while living with him under the same roof.There is love but for me, tantric lovemaking is missing and I feel a locked door inside.
I need to know whether there's still hope or not... Although hopes and expectations cause nothing but pain, and usually, I watch myself and am beware of any rising hope or expectation... |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2008 : 11:25:05 AM
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Hello Goddessinside.....welcome to the forum,
So please correct me if I am wrong, but your husband is a practicing "yogi" and has decided to become celibate? Do I understand this right? Can I ask you if he is practicing AYP? Are you? Are you practicing anything yoga-wise or is it just him and you are just here looking for answers? Please help me understand exactly your situation as I may have a few suggestions for you if I am understanding your circumstance correctly. Sorry for the need to clarify, again, welcome to the forum
In Love,
CarsonZi |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2008 : 11:15:59 AM
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We both have been practicing yoga kriyas for almost 3 years now.
No, we don't practice AYP. My husband used to control his ejaculation and move the energy upward when we used to make love before...
But he chose to refrain from having sex with me. So first, he repressed his desire. Now, I'm quite lost as I don't know if he truly went beyond this desire or if he's still repressing it...
One thing is clear: he has a sincere desire for growing spiritually and purify his whole energy system. And I share the same desire for myself.The thing is that, as a woman, I'm suffering from not being able to share love with him with my body anymore...
I just wander how long someone can remain celibate while practicing yoga... |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2008 : 11:36:45 AM
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Hi Goddessinside
Welcome to the forum.
Just wondering if the celibacy is the absence of penetration only, or does it include all forms of contact, including holding each other or lying beside each other resonating in each other's energy?
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2008 : 7:37:36 PM
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Hi Goddessinside,
Thanks for the clarification. This is a tough situation, as in my opinion many people once they have a certain idea in their head, they have a hard time seeing any other perspective on the situation. Sounds as though your husband feels that the only way to further his progress is to be celibate. That is just his opinion though. If you can, it might be benificial to try and show him through literature that it is not necessary to be celibate in order to advance spiritually. And that he is only doing this out of an obsessive need to not have sex, not because this is the only way to futher oneself spiritually. But like I said before, it may be very difficult to convince him of anything if he has already made his mind up. Try to lovingly show him that you are unsatisfied. Many men feel an intense desire to satisfy their wives. Sexually and otherwise. So make sure he KNOWS how you feel. Sorry these suggestions are limited, as this is a sticky situation. Feel free to keep us updated here as to what you have tried etc. so we can try to suggest other ways to help your husband reconnect intimately with you. Hope this helps a little.
In Love,
CarsonZi |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2008 : 10:13:36 AM
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Welcome to the forum!
I see two issues here.
First of all, he may benefit from more understanding of the yoga process. Why would someone want to transcend sexual desire? There are all sorts of ways this can be wrong-headed. I don't know what exactly it is in his case but it can easily be a neurotic, pseudo-spiritual control-freak thing like wanting to get rats out of his basement. If he can get interested, I'd recommend his reading all of Yogani's 'The enlightenment series' -- but especially Tantra. Look for it on amazon. Maybe buy it for him.
There is another issue here and it is a relationship one. You are married. Has he lovingly discussed this issue with you and brought you on board? It sounds as if he hasn't. He should though. It isn't just his bed any more, not after he gets married.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 3:20:15 PM
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namaste Goddessinside, and welcome to the forum 
actualy what you just mentioned is very possible if it comes naturaly; A lot of examples are given like sri Ramakrishna and his disciple swami Vivekananda... and that doesn't only exist between the hindues it also exists in all religions take st. Paul for example when he speaks about the gift given to him by god to have a full control over his sexual urges.
if the thing comes naturaly due to our yoga then it's okey, if not then it's self imposed and that's an area which is not very recomended to be in.
forced habbits lead to... (Freud)........
tell your husband that it should come naturaly, if not then it's not very healthy.
by the way he shouldn't be afraid of sex, everything with moderation is great plus if we could add on some tantra to it then that would be great.
check the free tantra lessons ( http://www.aypsite.org/TantraDirectory.html ) and share them with your husband; And while you're at it check on this post by yours truely and do share it with your husband as well it might clear some dust on the matter of celibacy:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=4225
by the way it's real nice to see another lebanese arround this forum .
kindest regards my friend.
light and love,
Ananda
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Edited by - Ananda on Sep 16 2008 3:23:15 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 3:29:02 PM
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p.s: check yogani's reply to my post most importantly, it's in there where you would find the stuff that you should share with your husband.
namaste |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 10:10:51 AM
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ACtually, I call him my husband, but we are not officially married...anyway, that's a detail...
When we used to make love, before, he was able to control his ejaculation... but today, according to what he says to me, he feels that having sex with me would be like getting down from the mountain, where he feels soooo in peace and pure, to get down to the city...
The thing I cannot undertand is that after sharing love in intimacy,(for me, it was more than just the body, for him, I don't know, it's his experience), during 2 years, he decided to cut the physical -sexual-contact with me, willingly, and by and by, according to him, he says that sex doesn't attract him anymore...
He loves me from the heart chakra, not from the lowest ones...
When I say to him: how can you watch porno movies, even if it's for understanding and feeling what happens inside of you, how it affects your energy? How can you watch these movies? I felt so offended...
To me, those movies are for sick people... Sex for me is sacred...and it's now clear that my husband is not able to understand that this "sex" has nothing to do with what I feel...
For him, sex is just sex, and it's only for reproduction...
And he said that Tantra is for people who are identified with their bodies...
How can I explain to him what I feel, the sacred feeling I feel...
I just cannot: putting it into words will not work! It has to be shared, feeled... but right now, the door is simply closed, and I'm just suffering deeply. I feel blocked, repressed... I go through cycles of depression and release...I'm planning to travel to Puna (to Osho Foundation) soon.
I just hope this journey will help me deal with this situation..
The cause of my pain is just that I cannot imagine living without him.
I simply love him. But he doesn't take me totally, there's a part of me which is being suppressed, and this is causing me a great pain, emotionnally, psychologically and physically...
I'm aware that nobody can help me.
I'm just sharing with all of you my pain.
And I'm sorry for that. |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 10:57:16 AM
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Your husband is laboring under two grossly false impressions, one regarding sexuality and its relationship to spiritual evolution, and the second regarding the marriage relationship. Being a VERY long-term and successful practicer of both, allow me to clarify.
A successful marriage always involves what I call the "4 C's" of compromise, communication, cooperation and commitment. I was married for 34 years to my first wife, who died a year and a half ago. Although not a perfect marriage, we sought to maintain our relationship by always working on these four "C's". It sounds as if your marriage lacks at least the arts of compromise and communication. A marriage is a partnership--one partner grows, learns and evolves in tandem with the other. The individual is given over to the couple, and the couple becomes the force and vehicle for growth, instead of the individual. Otherwise, one or the other (one's growth or the relationship) will suffer. It sounds as if you two have yet to work out this basic dynamic. My wife and I pursued our spiritual practices and studies in cooperation, as a couple, and I look back on our years together and wonder how it could be any other way without sacrificing either the marriage or our spirituality.
The second misinterpretation is about sexuality vs. spirituality. Celibacy is a technique for monks, not for married couples. If you are in a marriage, then sex is a necessary part of it--more than that, it can become a most powerful tool FOR your spiritual growth, instead of a drag against it. This is what Tantra is really all about--learning how to make the act of physical love into a powerful spiritual practice. Lovemaking between husband and wife can (and should) be a technique for experiencing transcendent bliss, for shedding individual ego and reaching Oneness, for practicing the yoga of Bhakti, or devotion, and for demonstrating the highest form of pure love you feel toward your spouse. That it also involves intense physical pleasure is a wonderful side effect! We should not reject the pleasures of physical love because it feels good--it's also infinitely good for the spirit. My current wife and I have reached a state of physical and spiritual union in which the world and our individual selves dissolve during lovemaking, and we are suspended in what I call "bhakti samadhi" or the illumination of devotion. It is a type of perfect Love which carried out from that space into our daily interactions. It causes us to be calm, loving, joyous and optimistic all the time. Not to mention, it feels wonderful both during and after. And by during, I mean for however many hours we have or wish to devote to the practice--we are both in our mid-50's, and through Tantra have learned how to make love (and have continuous orgasm) for an infinite amount of time. Living a spiritual life does not require a life in denial, but rather a life of enjoyment of everything to its fullest.
Namaste,
Michael |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 11:01:45 AM
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namaste my friend,
it's all good just let it out.
i was wondering if you took a look at the main lessons and the practices and benefits you can find in them.
concerning tantra and identification with the body, tell your husband how can he not know his real identity without using his body.
it's like the example of the spider who spawns a web and when he's finished hunting with it he starts eating everything until it's gone.
the same goes with this body, it is a tool that we use to get accomplished (realized) get back in.....
i would like to hear the opinions of your husband on the process of natural vajroli mentioned in the link i gave you.
and there are relations like ramakrishna and his wife that are based on love and that involved a lot of self tantric practices that lead to making love out of the body between the couple....
and that's too much, let's just leave it there.
so to be honest seeing a guy that watches porn and not wanna have sex with a chick, be sure there is something wrong.
plus porn (especialy if it's a habit) is rajas to be simply put and to add on i encourage you to look more deeply in david's post cz it's clear that this is headed the wrong way.
and in a relation, there two parties not one.
it's all up to you to see if it's worth it or not to sacrifice as much to such a relation.
light and love,
Ananda |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 11:33:54 AM
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Hi Goddessinside
Thank you for sharing with us something this sacred and intimate. You are very courageous.
quote:
And he said that Tantra is for people who are identified with their bodies...
How can I explain to him what I feel, the sacred feeling I feel...
I just cannot: putting it into words will not work!
No - words obviously won't do it. Nourishing your own clarity concerning your direct experience is the way to go. Just like you are already doing Don't lose heart, Goddessinside - your devotion (Bahkti) will hold you steady on the right track. Allow all the pain, but if you can - notice it more than mentally commenting on it. If all your attention is on the pain when it surfaces.....and you don't go with the thoughts that will accompany the pain....then the collected energy of just the noticing will gradually dissolve the pain. This is actually (as opposed to in theory) how we disidentify. Disidentification is not a mental act. It is awareness collected that will result in non-attachment. Not a mental decision......
Tantra is a beautiful practise that allows for a natural non attachment from the body - while in the ecstatic realm of our true nature. In other words: you do not disidentify from the body somewhere outside of that very body. On the contrary.....you open up....all the way....and let yourself receive all the essences in human life - including the sexual essence. Tantra is a helpful and beautiful tool to increase the rising of this essence.....it will stream upwards in the body and from there onwards.....merging in Devine Love. On the way....all thoughts of the body fall away....they simply drown in the ecstatic embrace.
All is sacred. And tantra is a celebration of this fact.
quote:
The cause of my pain is just that I cannot imagine living without him.
I simply love him. But he doesn't take me totally, there's a part of me which is being suppressed
Yes.....living without conscious love is not much of a life, is it?
You know....as much as it seems this way.....it is not actually he that suppresses this part of you. It is rather what you do when you see that being true to your own natural expression is resulting in less love (attention) from him.....that you might even lose him (love) over this. But....the thing is....that the love resides in you......and if you suppress.....you cut yourself off from your own source......the love that is life. This will always generate pain. And gradually...through understanding.....like you already do.....being open (even if he is closed) to what is taking place instead of resisting it......this very pain already brings you closer to the love that you verily are.
And the more you unite with yourself - the greater the effect on your partner. It is through your own truth.....through being true to you that he will get whatever message there is for him in this. And if he still chooses to not be close to you....to reject you....... then maybe you are at a point where you will both reconsider your stand with each other.
I wish you all the best!
And thank you again for sharing :)]
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 11:36:43 AM
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Mikkij and Ananda.....we just cross posted
Looking forward to reading your replies |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 11:55:01 AM
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Hi Michael
Thank you for yet again sharing your wonderful direct experience concerning the sacredness of relationships.
It is invaluable
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 11:58:03 AM
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quote:
it's like the example of the spider who spawns a web and when he's finished hunting with it he starts eating everything until it's gone.
That's a great example, Ananda!
Digesting the very path......is it |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 12:54:44 PM
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Hi Goddess,
you have received some very good advice for you husband, but unfortunately your husband is not the one coming here looking for advice. Unless he is open to some help in these matters, there are going to be big limits to the effectiveness of that advice.
While some people are giving good advice while beating around the bush a bit, Michael has pretty much laid it on the line. He's hit a hard nail on the head.
Here's a question for you and for your husband: is your husband humble? The true answer to that question determines a lot. To the extent to which a person is NOT humble, the learning process is closed. To the extent to which one is humble, there are great opportunities. This is true in all endeavors, but in the spiritual path it is true in spades. Big mistakes can be overcome by those who are humble.
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 1:28:17 PM
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Thank you all...
Especially Michael and Katrine.
I'm only 28 years old and I started to practice yoga about 3 years ago... it's just recently that a book on Tantra (The book of secrets -OSHO) came to me and it was a revelation: I had many experiences with men. I was always giving myself totally during the love act... All I could receive was a mechanical behavior and rarely a sensual one.
Until I met my love... we moved together into sex, with love.
But there was always this feeling inside of me that there were much more to discover than just the pleasure of orgasm...
Each caress, each touch I gave, I was feeling like caressing a sacred being, a God, at the same time, I had this wonderful feeling of being a mother...
But today my partner is limiting sex - his sex - to the genital area... he says that what he experiences in Shambhavi is beyond the body, sometimes he feels the energy around the crown chakra and more...
Today, he told me that he started seing colors during shambhavi.
I told him: "I've always seen colors!I thought that was a small thing and I shouldn't pay too much attention to it!"
What to say... Yes, I think even though we are lovers, he has the right to work on himself. And when anger leaves my heart, I even feel he has the right to watch whatever movie he needs to watch, if he can find answers this way... True love between two lovers involves true freedom...
Sometime it's hard to digest. I feel betrayed, but this is my problem after all.. this is my ego who's being hurt. My friend need not to be blamed.
My main problem is that I'm too weak today to be courageous enough to leave him. Cause I simply need to love someone, who understand me. And what's the point of leaving him? I don't have energy to love anybody else anymore. He's the one. So...I'll be patient. I'll let him walk on his path. And I just hope my trip to Poona will enlight me on the further steps I will have to take in my life.
A rainbow of love to all of you.
thank you. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 1:32:12 PM
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On a completely different note Goddessinside, could there be a possibility that your husband is cheating on you? The whole watching porn thing just doesn't seem to fit into the picture very well for me. People who have "transcended" sexual desires wouldn't need/want to watch porn, I wouldn't think. I hope it is not the case, but I have seen it before with a few of my close friends....the sexual desire leaves, (under many different pretexts, yoga would be no exception) or at least leaves the bedroom, (maybe making it's way onto your tv instead) and then some time later, one partner finds out that the other has been cheating on them the whole time. I really hope this is not the case as you obviously care deeply for your husband and I wish absolutely no pain or suffering on you, but it has happened before. Hopefully I am dead wrong.
Lovingly,
CarsonZi
P.S. What about trying to refocus the undying love you feel for your partner onto your ishta? Instead of being so focussed on HIS spiritual journey and the effect it is having on YOUR spiritual journey, try taking those emotions and that energy and focus it on your OWN enlightenment or whatever your chosen ishta is? |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 17 2008 1:44:20 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 1:57:40 PM
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Goddessinside,
I have to agree with CarsonZI. I don't know if it's literal cheating, but I think something is seriously wrong with this set-up. Something maybe that you aren't facing.... or maybe you are since you mentioned 'a great mistake and delusion' in your first post. In any case this whole celibacy-with-your-unwilling-lover-while-watching-porn number doesn't sound right.
And this notion, 'Tantra is for those identified with their bodies' rings like an excuse -- and a lame and one at that. As if to imply that Mr. Porn-Watcher is less 'identified with his body' than advanced tantra practitioners.....
I have to say though that going to Osho Camp (that's what I call it and I don't mean it in a derogatory way ) could be a great idea for you. I have a good feeling about that. One great thing they learned from Osho is not to be pious. They will call a spade a spade there for you. They'll probably tell you true stuff that you don't want to tell yourself.
Just a word about the Osho set-up -- I don't know if you've been there before, but going there can be a good thing like it can be a good thing for someone from the country who has never seen the city before, going to the city and getting a new perspective. Just don't be naive though -- there are all types there, including those who can be trusted and those who cannot. Just like the city.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 17 2008 5:13:17 PM |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Sep 18 2008 : 3:19:28 PM
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Just a word about the Osho set-up -- I don't know if you've been there before, but going there can be a good thing like it can be a good thing for someone from the country who has never seen the city before, going to the city and getting a new perspective. Just don't be naive though -- there are all types there, including those who can be trusted and those who cannot. Just like the city.
Have you been there before? Can you tell me about your experience?
What do you mean by "including those who can be trusted and those who cannot" ? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 18 2008 : 6:04:56 PM
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Hi Goddesinside,
no, I wish I had been there and could tell you a lot about it. But I haven't been there though I know people who have. So I am relying on word of mouth.
Just don't be naive though -- there are all types there, including those who can be trusted and those who cannot. Just like the city.
I'd just take it on face value. I don't think you're naive, but the reason I say it is that if we experience people who have an 'expanded' awareness, we can make the mistake of thinking they are 'as good' or 'better' people than average. That doesn't necessarily hold up. I'm not saying you'll be among a bunch of bad people -- far from it -- you'll be among a bunch of mixed people. That's the impression I get from the place.
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 04:53:45 AM
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Hi Albert.
I had a look at the links you sent.
Thank you. It gave me a new and larger view on tantra.
But do I have to understand that Osho's tantra belong to "neo-tantra"? So, his teachings would be addressed to a certain category of people in the sixties and seventies?
Are there serious and authentic teachers of traditionnal tantra nowadays in India? |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 06:03:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Goddessinside
But do I have to understand that Osho's tantra belong to "neo-tantra"?
Yeap |
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forced celibacy and mind games...
