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Wilder
12 Posts |
 Posted - May 03 2008 : 2:25:57 PM
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Hi All,
Is it morally and spiritually (karma wise) right to have sex outside marriage if your partner is fine with it. Let us say our partner does not get hurt and allows us to have sex outside marriage. Having sex outside marriage in such a case, will it affect our karmic equation in anyway?
Please post your views
- Wilder |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2008 : 3:00:12 PM
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To focus on more than one woman is a game of the mind, the ego, that always wants more and is never satisfied. Truth is, there's only One Woman, and when a man hasfound her, there will be no need for another physical woman. If we can't find The Divine Woman in our partner (or actually, she's INSIDE of all of us, but our partner is an appearance of her) but go searching for her elsewhere... we continue the restless focus on outer satisfaction and excitement in samsara and thus continue to create karma that somehow needs to be solved. We always create karma - it's the law of cause and effect - but some effects are greater than others to dissolve and some actions mean we dive into more mud than necessary.
I don't see anything morally wrong with it. I would just say it generally would slow our journey down, since we choose distraction instead of going inside to find Truth.
As I see it now, it would slow the purification process down and throw "dirt" on the window we are trying to clean with meditation etc. Because it stirres emotions, mind and body. It increases the identification with the ego, lusting and having desires, instead of increasing the identification with our higher Self.
Just my two cents... But who knows... some may need that experience to go deeper!?'  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2008 : 5:06:07 PM
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Whether you are married or not has nothing to do with spirituality or karma or right and wrong. It is only based upon beliefs of man. And different cultures and religions have different beliefs.
Personally I believe if you have sex a lot without love it is distracting from a spiritual path. but if there is love, tantric sex can be a good path.
I don't believe there are any karma consequences in the situation you describe,
other than the potential delay caused by becoming side-tracked.
When women approach me who want to cheat on their husbands or are just promiscuous and sex has no meaning to them, I stay away because I feel those circumstances are asking for trouble.
So what is really important is how YOU feel about it, and your partner's true feeling. |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2008 : 6:03:42 PM
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Hi Wilder,
welcome to the forums.
I think I'd go for balance: what she agrees to in your sex life, you should agree to in hers, without feeling hurt. This might be slightly easier in your twenties than in 35+.
Most tantrikas live in 'traditional' couples (creative rectangle/hexagon/octagon experiments are in the margins of Tantra). This is not about morality, it's for practical reasons: Staying preorgasmic is a tricky interplay with a woman and trying to adjust your body and spirit to several women in parallell adds a distraction, making it an even trickier Advanced++ exercise :-))
For me (or any man), it's good to keep in mind that although I open the woman from below (mouladhara) in bed, they always open us from the middle (anahata) at the same time. Tantra is much about opening and expanding our heart, to embrace the universe through the woman; most men don't fix it with more than one, so that's the main practical reason. So you're supposed to open to both of your women in unconditional love - or to go for one of them.
Also (not too interesting to young men), David Deida has a chapter (27) in his Way of the Superior Man (ISBN 978-1-59179-257-4) about dealing with your sexy young female students, baby sitters etc.: inhale their radiance, feel it, breathe into it, let it inspire you - but let them alone, deal with them in correctness.
I wouldn't call it rules. I'm generally skeptical about one-size-fits-all absolutes that tend to override common sense (in for example, sick or sexless relationships)...
These are not musts, they're rather practical hints by guys who have tried out several ways. At a choice point, I usually prefer intensity to number. Every man has to find his individual edge - and hers (also, talking frankly and openly is a wise step, whatever the edge).
Sivananda has written about the lawn always 'looking greener' on the other side: Nobody's happy. Ingmar Bergman has taken it to the extremes in Women's Dreams (whatever hard decision you've made, you always tend to envy your neighbor :-) and he has said: Get married, and you'll regret it. Don't get married, and you'll regret it... As Emc mentions, your truth (or happiness) is cultivated within rather than coming from external posessions, events or situations. A new experience makes you experienced. Not necessarily happy.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2008 : 11:22:42 PM
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Good post Hathateacher.
I told my married friend that I am pretty happy being single. I said "But I am lonely a few days every year.
He said "I'm lonely a few days every year too."
I said "Sometimes I wish i was married so I could have sex whenever I want."
He said "I'm married and I can't have sex whenever I want".
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 01:09:08 AM
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Wilder asked:
Is it morally and spiritually (karma wise) right to have sex outside marriage if your partner is fine with it. Let us say our partner does not get hurt and allows us to have sex outside marriage. Having sex outside marriage in such a case, will it affect our karmic equation in anyway?
I think it's fine.
EMC said:
To focus on more than one woman is a game of the mind, the ego, that always wants more and is never satisfied. Truth is, there's only One Woman, and when a man hasfound her, there will be no need for another physical woman.
I don't agree with EMC about this. Monogamous restrictions are just as much a result of something wanting 'more' as non-monogamy, arguably even more so -- and we can also label that as 'the ego' too if we want to put it down a bit. Many men, at all staqes of development, are perfectly capable of enjoying more than one woman. Often though, circumstances (often relationship circumstances) dictate that such things are not available to them without other undesirable side-effects in terms of existing relationships.
People have to figure out from themselves what they want in their relationships -- an optimize their own lives based on what the options are, with all their ramifications.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 04 2008 01:10:21 AM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 02:00:30 AM
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I don't think there's morally right or wrong in it. Not for me anyway. But I do find EMC's idea to be inspiring, at least I think most of the time that applies.
But then I do believe (just speculating) that might due more to the collective expectations of our modern society. Monogamy is very often enshrined as the only acceptable options. This makes anyone trying for sex outside marriage likely to be cheating, and it is in the cheating and consequence hurting that problems arise.
So in the future, or in a different culture, it is entirely fine that they won't even think of this question to ask!
Just my 2 cents.... |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on May 04 2008 09:03:45 AM |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 03:48:36 AM
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Hi Alvin and David,
- yes, the problem of the mainstream society is its obsession by such rules (or by never-written, tacit/implied 'manners' etc.) as if these were a law of nature. In Tantra rather, there are practical recommendations to be considered with feeling, insight and common sense. Minds differ from each other, as do bodies (between individuals as well as across one's lifetime), making every couple unique.
Personally I think talking openly is key. To take the idea to the extreme: suppose I had to choose between the "logic" of a swinger couple and one of a cheater; I think I'd prefer the swinger one - whereas mainstream societies, especially outside large North-/West-European cities, seem to 'prefer' cheating :-))
I agree with Etherfish and his friend, I've been through both great moments and through loneliness in my last marriage - and I've been through both as a single, too. So from the point of view of happiness or spirituality the question is: What's the question? :-)
The best moments tend to come from within, either way.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 04:38:59 AM
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quote:
emc said:To focus on more than one woman is a game of the mind, the ego, that always wants more and is never satisfied. Truth is, there's only One Woman, and when a man hasfound her, there will be no need for another physical woman.
David replied: I don't agree with EMC about this. Monogamous restrictions...
I'm not talking about monogamous restrictions. There's only One Shakti! Does it get clearer? It's the Shiva-Shakti union we want. And that happens inside. And is celebrated in manifestation when man and woman gets together. We don't need more than one manifested woman to celebrate the Shiva-Shakti marriage. There's only One thing going on here... so running from flower to flower, from woman to woman, is a game of the mind. The solution is to find Shakti in ourselves, and if we can't see the reflected Shakti in our partner but think we'll have a better chance finding her in another... we have to do some more inner work!
The tendency to search for new flowers all the time is largely biological. Please see www.reuniting.info for exellent explanations of how the dopamine rules our behaviors - as long as we don't transcend our minds and bodies. |
Edited by - emc on May 04 2008 04:41:56 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 09:36:33 AM
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Hi emc
There is also the principle of entrainment......
Some women and men are more "suited" to each other than others. Some display Shakti and Shiva more openly than others. First and foremost is the inner finding. But sometimes this is greatly enhanced by a partner that reflects THAT in a clear and consistant way. Sometimes this happens more easily when "two" meet.....or when "two" separates.
But then agian......."Thy will be done"......life always puts us in the situations that will engender the most growth.
There are many ways to Rome.....
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 09:59:05 AM
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Hi emc,
- which is not to say that all relationships or marriages are sound. As the Reuniting.info link above puts it:
'If your spouse already bugs you now, the future is bleak. New research suggests couples view one another as even more irritating and demanding the longer they are together'.
Apparently, some may have to do some more inner work - whereas others may have to part. Been there, seen it, got the T-shirt. :-))
In quite a few countries, a major obstacle to people's spiritual growth are quick-fix lists from churches, sects, ideologies, school teachers and authoritarian structures: 'just obey OUR ten commandments (or yamas and niyamas or whatever they call it on a particular continent) and we guarantee it will make you a great spirit'.
There's no automatism to it, no external list will ever make me grow.
It's the other way round: if I train my body and mind to a degree where the 'good' way of life will feel completely natural, there's likely to be growth - and it will come from the training (sadhana), as opposed to just a commandment pushing me in that direction. This distinction is often blurred in churches, communions, ethics lectures etc., that's how a good intent can create a hella bad karma.
'Stop hoping for the completion of anything i life' (Deida)...
As soon as a man believes having 'completed' or 'achieved' a high enough level and starts to watch TV instead of his sadhana, he stops to grow (same thing in his spirit as in his body). That's the price of blurring this distinction.
I guess you'd agree with me in that the process is ahead of the results. In time, and in priority. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 11:32:04 AM
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EMC said:
It's the Shiva-Shakti union we want. And that happens inside. And is celebrated in manifestation when man and woman gets together.
This much is fine.... but
We don't need more than one manifested woman to celebrate the Shiva-Shakti marriage. There's only One thing going on here... so running from flower to flower, from woman to woman, is a game of the mind.
The rest just doesn't follow. Monogamy just doesn't follow from 'it's the Shiva-Shakti union we want', or 'there is Only One Shakti', or 'it all happens inside'. You might as well identify Zerogamy (LOL), also-called celibacy, as what follows -- since it all happens inside, why would anyone want anyone else at all? You identify non-monogamy as a 'game of the mind', and I think from experience that 'mind' or 'ego' are your codes for unenlightened or immature states. Well, some Zerogamists (celibates) identify physical sex similarly, as arising as a result of unenlightened or immature states. And so it goes.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 12:22:41 PM
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quote:
Katrine said: There is also the principle of entrainment......
Some women and men are more "suited" to each other than others. Some display Shakti and Shiva more openly than others. First and foremost is the inner finding. But sometimes this is greatly enhanced by a partner that reflects THAT in a clear and consistant way. Sometimes this happens more easily when "two" meet.....or when "two" separates.
But then agian......."Thy will be done"......life always puts us in the situations that will engender the most growth.
There are many ways to Rome.....
If we are talking relationships, this makes a lot of sense to me.
Althought someone in a difficult relationship who is working through it as their sadhana or as a "spiritual marriage" is likely to grow a great deal faster than without this constant "mirroring".
emc - when I read your first post the notion of celibacy also sprung to mind, so I would agree with David on this.
There is another aspect that nobody has raised and that is the "spiritual vow"
What does a spiritual vow mean in all of this?
I would would think it means more for some than others. If a person is very much in touch with their stillness and they make a vow out of this inner silence and deep witness - the core of their being - does this count for anything in the Karma stakes?
Thanks Wilder for starting this thread
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Edited by - Sparkle on May 04 2008 12:23:42 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 2:57:38 PM
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Hathateacher: "Tantra is much about opening and expanding our heart, to embrace the universe through the woman; most men don't fix it with more than one, so that's the main practical reason. So you're supposed to open to both of your women in unconditional love - or to go for one of them."
Yes, that's what I mean! Most men (and women) don't fix it with even one! As long as anyone isn't happy in a relationship we haven't "fixed it" - we are not True to our Self and we don't Live Love. When being presence, only a glance from your partner sends you off in 'fire works'. If a man is being able to keep two or more women happy (or vice versa with the sexes) then... sure... the celebration in manifestation goes on all over! But I have seldom seen that happen. What I see is people running away from their fears woken up in relationships by turning to someone else, and I see (as many of you point out) practical problems, emotional turmoil and lots of lies being spoken in the entangled dependencies taking place. (Of course a relationship sometimes must be broken because it's doomed and it has gone too far to resque, but that was not really the issue here as I see it.) So as long as we don't fix it with our partner, who is the best guru, I think we should ask ourselves why we want another...
Wilder, can you bring more clarity to what is your purpose for having another? It could help bringing the discussion further into a direction that may be more helpful to you.
Katrine, what is the principle of entrainment? Don't get it. I am certain we always meet the perfect partner. Perfect in the way he/she will always bring about the lesson we have to learn, whether it is to break up or face our fears.
David: "The rest just doesn't follow. Monogamy just doesn't follow from 'it's the Shiva-Shakti union we want', or 'there is Only One Shakti', or 'it all happens inside'.You might as well identify Zerogamy (LOL), also-called celibacy, as what follows "
Louis: "emc - when I read your first post the notion of celibacy also sprung to mind, so I would agree with David on this."
Hm. No, you are right, David. Monogamy doesn't follow by mind logic. It follows from... a total completion when the marriage takes place. There are no more desires, no more wantings, no more "you" there to even consider getting another partner! Celibacy does not follow from where I sit, because there is only one way to celebrate the union and that is to manifest it in existence... When the true tantric inner union is mirrored in the physical manifestation... the whole universe celebrates too... and there is nothing else going on... All comparisons stop. There is no "other side" where the grass can ever be greener... There's just the lovemaking taking place... So I guess logically, there are no hindrances to go for other women to celebrate more... I just don't see the logic in why 'stillness in action' would ever get the idea... But everything is possible, and I don't see any morality in this whatsoever either. Just the non-interest in... getting "more" of what we already have...
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 3:14:29 PM
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quote:
Katrine, what is the principle of entrainment? Don't get it. I am certain we always meet the perfect partner. Perfect in the way he/she will always bring about the lesson we have to learn, whether it is to break up or face our fears.
Yes. You just described it. Entrainment is the very fact of what is.....in the meeting with what "is yet not". It is to be alligned to what is.....in another as well as yourself. But - as with all else it is possible to resist what is. It is possible to stay in a relationship longer than "necessary" and it is also possible to leave before you "should"......due to resistance. Although growth is generated out of friction; it can be delayed by stuckness as well as distractions.
I thought perhaps you were saying that "hey - we get one partner and this is it....if we can't see our Higer self in him/her....then it will do us no good to look elsewhere".
Maybe I misunderstood you.... |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2008 : 3:45:24 PM
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I think we are saying the same thing, Katrine. What we resist persists, so if we leave a relationship before we have dealt with our issue, it will only turn up in another. So if we leave "before we should" - we will just be presented the same type of partner again, so it will most often do us no good to look elsewhere. Life is stubborn! If we wait longer than necessary to leave and are stuck although we truly have solved the issue within... then... no harm done. We will eventually break up and go find another partner who will present further issues to face.
In any case, it's about not resisting, and trusting life will present a partner who is optimal. If life wants to present two partners simultaneously... well... that's perhaps a very advanced soul that will work on several issues at the same time (having two Kali's ready to chop off his head  )... or ... I see it as a restless mind avoiding going deeper into seeing what the resistance is about by calling in more distractions in life.
Perhaps I have a very simplistic way of seeing it. And I may be totally wrong. And I may not cover all the varieties that exist... But that's what I have seen and experienced so far around me when it comes to relationships, monogamous, polyamorous, queer... whatever. |
Edited by - emc on May 04 2008 3:47:18 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2008 : 10:39:59 AM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
Although growth is generated out of friction; it can be delayed by stuckness as well as distractions.
I think growth can also come from pure love itself?
I entered a new relationship about 6 months ago and have found some dynamics between myself and my new partner like nothing I have ever experienced before. It is like the love within the two of us will not allow any emotional blocks, errant beliefs or thoughts to exist between us. It seems to "demand" truth at all times as well. We have both experienced much purification by just being around one another sometimes making it challenging to stay on the right side of the self-pacing equation.
I can recall a couple of months back waking up in the middle of the night with her sound asleep beside me, but unconsciously she had one hand on my "dan tien" chakra and another on my heart center and the energy was just flowing through me in powerful waves from feet to head. She had no recollection of this in the morning, but I had some self-pacing to do!
We experience very little friction in terms of emotional chafing against one another in the form of disagreements or arguments etc., but have both experienced spontaneous and often unrelated emotional releases that seem to come out of “nowhere” in terms of context to daily situations. We have both have had a good laugh at some of the emotional releases we have observed for no apparent connected reason. Going to a yoga class together has had such a big impact on each other that I have to cut my practices in half before going and she can't meditate at all just to keep the release from being too intense. 
Very interesting to observe, we both seemed to be "designed" to open each other up whether we want to or not!
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2008 : 6:43:41 PM
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Sounds great anthem11, hope to find myself in that place someday.
--------------
new subject:
I saw an interview once of a polygamist. most people would picture that as a guy being a 24 hour playboy and having his cake and eating it too.
Well, this guy said it's nothing like that. He said the women band together and decide who gets to have sex with him and when. Their menstruations all happen at the same time during which he gets nothing, and is treated like crap.
Then the women all band together emotionally also, leaving him as the outsider, and just sort of a sex slave who has to do their bidding, and also all the manly work around the place.
So that show made me decide either monogamy, or the single life! |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2008 : 10:42:55 AM
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Hi Anthem11 (and Katrine)
- looks like a (recent) very meaningful change of relationship. If you cultivate the polarity of male and female, there doesn't have to be much commonplace friction amd there still can be growth.
On the contrary, most quarrels come from de-polarization. Allow her to be a woman and yourself to be a man. I've noticed that I (and most people, especialy here in the Swedish consensus "culture") have a tendency to put the compromise ahead of the polarity of acknowledging and expressing who they are and what they really want. That's a short-term quick fix and a long-term disaster, leading to a friendship, with sex once a month... :-) Opposite poles attract each other, you need a Shakti and a Shiva to create attraction. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2008 : 1:58:07 PM
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Hi Anthem
quote:
entered a new relationship about 6 months ago and have found some dynamics between myself and my new partner like nothing I have ever experienced before.
That is truly wonderful, Anthem
quote:
I think growth can also come from pure love itself?
Of course! We all grow because of love all the time
But "on the way" to opening up to pure love to such an extent that our perception of it becomes stable (i.e.that we continue to always open, but from an already loving stand) - well, to that extent, it is my experience that what I call "friction" sees to it that there is aspiration for the light/love. With this I mean that there is an inner feeling of....not being content without the perception of pure love....there is an inner....."cry" for more of the sacredness. It sees to it that there is no complacent settlement....for something less than the sacredness.
Of course; when you are in a relationship such as yours (where both have a spiritual yearning and are walking the path respectfully together) - then she is the embodyment of that love for you (and vice versa). No wonder self-pacing becomes an issue! It becomes easy to worship through her/you . It makes me smile just to think of it....I am so happy for you, Anthem
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2008 : 4:23:47 PM
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| A nice warm-hearted post, Katrine. I could hardly put it better ! |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2008 : 11:31:16 PM
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Hi Hatha,
Thank you for the reminder to not repress and to allow natural expression to occur, an easy thing to over look for the sake of peace!
Hi Katrine,
Thank you for the kind words.
quote:
well, to that extent, it is my experience that what I call "friction" sees to it that there is aspiration for the light/love. With this I mean that there is an inner feeling of....not being content without the perception of pure love....there is an inner....."cry" for more of the sacredness. It sees to it that there is no complacent settlement....for something less than the sacredness.
This describes perfectly what I have been experiencing. There is no room for anything to get inbetween that "sacred" connection, it must be looked at and dealt with or it is like a sliver that you can't ignore. Love wants to flow freely, so it is a small price to pay in the end, but took some getting used to!
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Sex outside marriage, with consent
