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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 04 2005 : 10:48:28 PM
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Hari Om
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Hello folks and Namaste,
I have not read every post so this may be redundant but is anyone practicing a night technique that allows the continued pursuit of the SELF?
Or is there a posting by Yogani that can assist here.
Thanks and Pranams,
Idam brahma, idam kshatram, ime lokah, ime devah, imani bhutani, idam sarvam yad ayam atma.
"This Source of knowledge; this source of power; all these worlds; all these gods; all these beings; -- All this is just the Self."
Frank in San Diego |
Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 05 2007 08:53:05 AM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2005 : 11:04:55 PM
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| Hmm..imagining pursuing myself all night /run around in circles till I catch myself |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2005 : 4:47:58 PM
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hari om
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Hello Victor,
re: running around all night
What else do you have to do? :>) When we say we slepped GREAT, its because we
have no recollection of that period of time that just past w/o consciousness.
There may ( and is) techniques that allow for the continuous refinement of perception
during this "down time". The Upanishads ( Brihadaranyaka Upanishad or Forest Upanishad) discusses this sleep state. It suggests that there is a simularity between deep sleep ( no dream state) and the state of Liberation ( or Moksha). In Moksha( or enlightenment) one is in FULL awareness and the absence of any duality, while in deep sleep one is UNAWARE of any duality, hense a simularity can be drawn.
Perhaps as the weeks unfold Yogani can address this for us and offer some AYP to develop this area.
Regards,
Frank in San Diego
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2005 : 5:36:59 PM
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| Oh well, guess my attempt at humor fell on deaf ears. I am sure that in all earnestness you are no doubt correct, just couldn't resist poking a little fun |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2005 : 7:39:24 PM
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If you are referring to yoga-nidra or yogic sleep then a good link and instructions on how to perform this can be found at:
http://www.swamij.com/yoga-nidra.htm
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2005 : 10:57:08 PM
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Hello All:
Here is a Q&A from my mailbox a few months ago on sleep techniques. Having tried some methods years ago, I am not much for them, for the reasons mentioned. If anyone has something practical to offer that can provide additional stable growth without throwing everything else out of whack, do feel free to post it!
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Q: I've noticed a number of times that I'd just be on the point of falling asleep and my mind would be doing some yogic thing --- might be my mind is on the base of my spine or some other part of my body --- and whazam! it gets aligned in some sort of energetic way, a connection, a yogic advancement is made. And I wake up.
This doesn't happen regularly for me. But it has happened often enough for me to notice it.... and to speculate, like a scientist....
Is this a known phenomenon? It seems to me to be something *like* the mind going to some state of transcendence, some deep connection in which the desire (activated by a feeling for the particular part of the body which the mind is attending) is realized by an alignment of that part of the body... a little like the theory behind samyama practice, but entirely spontaneous.
Do you know if there is any way to exploit this, yogically? Or is it (for now at least) just a random fruit that is thrown our way every now and then?
A: There's no question that attention, particularly when grounded in inner silence after years of deep meditation, has a purifying effect on the subtle neurology and physical body. That is the natural principle involved in samyama, and also in the practices that involve body-located attention (spinal breathing, yoni mudra, chin pump, spinal bastrika, etc.). These are systematic methods designed to cover the full range of neuro-biological openings. We also know that if a particular purification event becomes so strong in meditation that we cannot easily pick up the mantra, we can allow the attention to go to it to help dissolve that particular unwinding.
The automatic yoga you are experiencing at the sleep boundary involves that natural principle of silence-based attention fostering purification. I experience it regularly too, and also during dreaming and deep sleep, not to mention at all odd times during the day. That is what happens when inner silence becomes a 24 hour experience. It is always at work in one way or another cleaning us up inside. Can it be exploited as additional practice? I think the practices just mentioned do.
Can we do a better job of instigating and supervising a "yoga nidra" (yogic sleep) style of attentive purification? Perhaps. Yoga nidra is a hot item on the yoga circuit these days -- a sort of fad, really. The idea of getting enlightened while sleeping is appealing to the time-efficient mind. Go to sleep ignorant, and wake up enlightened. What could be better? I know that isn't what you are suggesting, but perhaps you are looking for ways to optimize the waking/sleep state boundary to facilitate these kinds of releases. I know some methods, but do not recommend them. My experience with them has led to sleep disruption and deprivation (scientific investigations in any field will lead to some dead ends, and so far that is where I am on sleep techniques), so I really have nothing useful to offer in that department. An expanding list of (market driven?) teachers claim to, however, and the way to find them is by searching on yoga nidra. Also check the methods of the Tibetan Buddhists (a la Evans-Wentz books) and the Toltec (Shaman) traditions. All of these are big into sleep boundary practices.
As you know, the AYP approach is to cultivate inner silence in sitting practices, emerging to be coexistent with waking, dreaming and deep sleep states. It is a bit old-fashioned (very), but it works. If you run across an approach for utilizing the gap state between waking and sleep states that has some practical potential, without turning sleep on its head, do let me know.
We all need our sleep.  zzzzzz
The guru is in you.
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2005 : 3:05:14 PM
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Hari Om
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Hello FOlks,
thought I would give you a data point on this subject - I picked up the Yoga Nidra CD by Swami Janakananda.
A good CD worth trying - very relaxing. If one had plenty of time I would play the CD first, then do prannayam and meditation etc.
The CD does in fact get one deeply relaxed, and worth the pursuit.
ON that note , it is "yoga rest or sleep" - but I would not catagorize it as a Night technique to experience the SELF.
Why would this be? the mind remains engaged to the instruction.
One unfolds theSELF from transcending the "mind" or fluxuations as
it were hense leaving the instruction behind.
All in all, a good and worthy CD.
Om shanti shanti shanti
Frank in SD
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Ute
39 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2005 : 11:37:56 PM
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Hello,
I have practiced Yoga Nidra quite a bit. You can get you to a deep place of stillness by systematically moving through the koshas. On the way you can gain some interesting awarenesses. Richard Miller wrote a paper explaining the principles behind YN. ( http://www.nondual.com/)
The practice can be pretty time consuming and you may end up just sleeping. Its fun though when you stay aware, while the body sleeps. When you come out of it you are very alert. Its a practice by itself and not meant instead your good night sleep. I noticed too, that it seems like a fad in the yoga world. Some teachers act as if they have some special magic. It is true that a teacher can guide the students to a pretty deep place with this practice. My students love it. I always let them know though, its just them touching in with their own inner stillness. Like Yogani says, the guru is in you.
Blessings,
Ute
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2005 : 9:29:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
If you run across an approach for utilizing the gap state between waking and sleep states that has some practical potential, without turning sleep on its head, do let me know.
The sivenanda/satyananda lineage is deeply into yoga nidra and has been since very long before the trend started. There are a ton of pulpy little paperbacks, published in India, by Satyananda, and I've been reading through them. I can't say that I'm in love with everything I read (this is understatement; I find a bunch of it disturbing...very occult and very geared up about getting power power power), but there are some great nuggets. I've not yet made a careful study of his yoga nidra teachings, but if you've not yet explored his "take" on this, it might be the missing link.
To digress, Satyananda very very adamently warns not to EVER sleep right after yoga practices. he says that doing so even once can derail your whole sadhana, and has all sorts of tips for avoiding dozing off during/after meditation et al. However, he also (separately) recommends meditating and doing mantra as you drift off to sleep. Maddeningly confusing. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2005 : 10:34:45 PM
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| hmm, why would falling asleep after yoga derail your practice? i don't get it |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2005 : 11:27:23 PM
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From "Taming the Kundalini", Satyananda's letters to a disciple (a woman who reportedly went on to become a great saint):
"When you feel sleepy while in meditation open your eyes and practice trataka, or japa with pranayama and open eyes...[etc etc]. Even after meditation, by any means remove drowiness. This is for your benefit. if you form the habit of sleeping after meditation, even once, it will be extremely difficult to break it; if the habit is already formed you will have to begin your yoga sadhana all over again".
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2005 : 09:40:19 AM
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Honestly Jim, I think Satyananda is just into nonsense-extremism here. There's plenty of that in the yoga-tradition.
Even the wording suggests to me that something is up. What on earth does it even mean to begin your sadhana all over again, by the way??? That you will be sullied and can be cleansed only by going back to first grade and starting all over again? It does not sound rational to me.  C'mon Satyananda, give us some credit here!!
By the way, I don't intend disrespect to Satyananda here -- he may be a great saint and worthy of great respect for all I know (I actually know nothing about him). But he may just have taken an extreme view on board in this case.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
From "Taming the Kundalini", Satyananda's letters to a disciple (a woman who reportedly went on to become a great saint):
"When you feel sleepy while in meditation open your eyes and practice trataka, or japa with pranayama and open eyes...[etc etc]. Even after meditation, by any means remove drowiness. This is for your benefit. if you form the habit of sleeping after meditation, even once, it will be extremely difficult to break it; if the habit is already formed you will have to begin your yoga sadhana all over again".
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 02 2005 3:03:42 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2005 : 5:16:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
By the way, I don't intend disrespect to Satyananda here -- he may be a great saint and worthy of great respect for all I know (I actually know nothing about him). But he may just have taken an extreme view on board in this case..
He actually IS a great saint worthy of great respect, and in dismissing him outright without deeper consideration (or experience), you are indeed being disrespectul...though it certainly doesn't offend me! :)
I'm loathe to snap to judge as nonsense insights from those further along the path. Not out of "respect", but simply out of recognition that so much of what I've come to embrace as truth is material I'd previously, in my ignorance, deemed nonsense.
We ought not accept as gospel every word of advice and insight; we of course need to exercise discretion insofar as we're able on the spiritual path as on every other path. But, after a lifetime of observing my snap judgements consistently proving more foolish than the notions I was decrying, I've greatly curbed my bluster and brio (though never my skepticism). |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2005 : 6:13:20 PM
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Really nice post Jim.
Sounds like you are further along the path than you are giving yourself credit for.....
Paul |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2005 : 6:21:27 PM
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
By the way, I don't intend disrespect to Satyananda here -- he may be a great saint and worthy of great respect for all I know (I actually know nothing about him). But he may just have taken an extreme view on board in this case..
He actually IS a great saint worthy of great respect, and in dismissing him outright without deeper consideration (or experience), you are indeed being disrespectul...though it certainly doesn't offend me! :)
Hi Jim,
when I look at the above two paragraphs, and I'm scratching my head wondering who has dismissed Satyananda outright. Perhaps the insinuation is that I did, but I certainly didn't. I gave Satyananda a lot of (potential) credit, despite his boo-boo.
You may judge me as disrespectful of Satyananda, but I know for a fact that I am not. I feel no disrespect towards him whatsoever.
There is something of an air of a telling-off about that post, Jim.
Quite honestly, I've really shot my mouth off quite often on this forum about various teachers who are revered by many people, and never got any telling-off from anyone.
This time, on the other hand, I'm getting a something of a telling-off for a mild, light-hearted off-the cuff expression of what I really think of some silly belief someone has, and I'm not sure the telling-off actually followed from giving insufficient deference to Satyananda ..... I really think it more followed from giving insufficient deference to Jim.
Best regards,
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 06 2005 7:58:20 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2005 : 10:21:20 PM
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You may well have knocked other masters without my noticing (I unfortunately don't have time to read this forum much); this was just one I saw.
Hey, you can knock me anytime. I'm just an intermediate, and am at a stage where I'm completely unsure of any of my assumptions about any of this stuff. I'm in my "post-smug" period!
But, if you'll reread, you'll see that I was the first one to wrinkle my forehead at Satyananda's conclusions on this. So you're not contradicting me. Though, again, you're welcome to any time! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 06 2005 10:23:09 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2005 : 11:38:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
But, if you'll reread, you'll see that I was the first one to wrinkle my forehead at Satyananda's conclusions on this. So you're not contradicting me. Though, again, you're welcome to any time!
Indeed I saw this, and I am certainly not contradicting your wrinkling of your forehead at the silly thing Satyananda is saying. Indeed I recognized that you were doing that, and you had every opportunity to just see that I was joining you and having a little fun in thinking this is silly.
But you took quite a different turn on this, for whatever reason --- I seems because some emotional button was pressed --- and I certainly am contradicting your assertion that I am showing Satyananda disrespect. I did nothing more than failed to deliver the kind of deference you expected at that time, for whatever reason. As I say, I think the button was really pressed by your feeling that I gave insufficient deference to Jim, not Satyananda at all. What followed was a mini-lecture (though it is couched in deniable pseudo-sweet 'what I have learned' language), with various insinuations about my making snap judgements and other things.
Regarding your suggestion that Satyananda is 'further along the path' than someone, and that I therefore shouldn't be making snap judgements about him; first, I made no snap judgements about Satyananda whatsoever, only questioned a very silly idea of his in an off-hand manner in a cyber-cafe; second, don't expect Satyananda to be given special reception as being 'further along the path' by those who know absolutely nothing about him (and even tell you that), *especially* and above all when what little they know includes some serious negatives or qualms which come from you.
>> you may have knocked other masters without my noticing
Both 'knocked' and 'masters' are your words here. Anyway, I know you well enough that you wouldn't care if I did. That's all a red herring. That lecture came for a different reason.
Barman -- another pint of Satsang there if you could.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 07 2005 3:27:49 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2005 : 6:21:08 PM
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Hi,
Simply chanting the mantra in your head as you go to sleep will give effect as you sleep.Last yr I was on nightshift for a few months and when I got to bed in the morning I simply started the mantra going as I drifted off.This lasted about 3 hrs every night and when I awoke I would be buzzing with energy.Because I was managing about 2-3 hrs a day meditation I was managing to get by with just the 3 hrs sleep with no ill effect.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2007 : 08:53:05 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2007 : 09:23:39 AM
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quote:
Frank-in-SanDiego: Hello folks and Namaste,
I have not read every post so this may be redundant but is anyone practicing a night technique that allows the continued pursuit of the SELF?
Or is there a posting by Yogani that can assist here.
"the Buddha said, "Above is the dwelling place of all Buddhas, below is the six realms, and all have the same substance. One by one, everything is complete; one by one, everything has it. One by one, everything interpenetrates everything else. One by one, each thing is complete."
http://kwanumzen.com/primarypoint/v...stwenty.html
"The moon in the sky illuminates the three worlds.
Creating the creation, the Creator beholds it.
One who sees, through the Guru, merges into Him.
The self-willed manmukhs are deluded, coming and going in reincarnation. One who establishes his home within his own heart, obtains the most beautiful, permanent place.
One comes to understand his own self, when he finds the True Guru".
(Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Raag Bilaaval)
"After the lower nature has returned to the brutishness, the higher struggles again to regain its spiritual estate. It ascends the seven Rings upon which sit the Seven Governors and returns to each their lower powers in this manner: Upon the first ring sits the Moon, and to it is returned the ability to increase and diminish. Upon the second ring sits Mercury, and to it are returned machinations, deceit, and craftiness. Upon the third ring sits Venus, and to it are returned the lusts and passions. Upon the fourth ring sits the Sun, and to this Lord are returned ambitions. Upon the fifth ring sits Mars, and to it are returned rashness and profane boldness. Upon the sixth ring sits Jupiter, and to it are returned the sense of accumulation and riches. And upon the seventh ring sits Saturn, at the Gate of Chaos, and to it are returned falsehood and evil plotting.
"Then, being naked of all the accumulations of the seven Rings, the soul comes to the Eighth Sphere, namely, the ring of the fixed stars. Here, freed of all illusion, it dwells in the Light and sings praises to the Father in a voice which only the pure of spirit may understand. Behold, O Hermes, there is a great mystery in the Eighth Sphere, for the Milky Way is the seed-ground of souls, and from it they drop into the Rings, and to the Milky Way they return again from the wheels of Saturn. But some cannot climb the seven-runged ladder of the Rings. So they wander in darkness below and are swept into eternity with the illusion of sense and earthiness.
"The path to immortality is hard, and only a few find it."
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/secre...megistus.htm
"And further: The stages that mark the wayfarer's journey from the abode of dust to the heavenly homeland are said to be seven. Some have called these Seven Valleys, and others, Seven Cities. And they say that until the wayfarer taketh leave of self, and traverseth these stages, he shall never reach to the ocean of nearness and union, nor drink of the peerless wine".
http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?...ys&language=
The Buddha was pointing at the moon for a reason.
You may find the seat of the true self within yourself when the moon is in perigee. And you may also want to research the scarab beetle.
That's my contribution to finding the Self at night, so take care and take flight.
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Feb 05 2007 09:45:25 AM |
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2007 : 4:43:24 PM
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Jim,
are you still reading this particular topic? It seems you were quite well on your way 2 years ago, and I only read this particular line of topic right now, jumping in on this thread after I lost all my email and internetconnections not so long ago, but..... believe it or not... I did as you suggested: NOT go to sleep after the practices. I did so because I was guided doing so by someone else in these forums talking about how important it is to have the lights on at night. (Being an astrologer however, it does depend, what light it is that one is referring to, so it is entirely difficult to calculate it correctly with astrology only, it needs some inner intuition as well.
From an astrological point of view though, I would imagine that in your case what would be best is to believe in what it is that you believe in, avoid the Moon, and follow the Sun, day and night, in your own way. That might not be applicable to other people though. It depends I guess on your own birthchart and so on and so forth.
Vil, may I use your first two alineas freely /quoting them?
Yogani: thank you so much for starting this AYP course online. It not only saved my spiritual life, it also guided me through an experience where if I have upset anybody, I sincerely apologize. Since I am back online (apparently), things must be going well over here and I may eventually even resume the translation of your lessons.
Love to you.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2007 : 6:27:45 PM
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Hey, yoginstar, feel free to quote if that's what you meant. I wasn't sure:
VIL |
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arzkiyahai
93 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2009 : 05:52:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
If you run across an approach for utilizing the gap state between waking and sleep states that has some practical potential, without turning sleep on its head, do let me know.
The sivenanda/satyananda lineage is deeply into yoga nidra and has been since very long before the trend started. There are a ton of pulpy little paperbacks, published in India, by Satyananda, and I've been reading through them. I can't say that I'm in love with everything I read (this is understatement; I find a bunch of it disturbing...very occult and very geared up about getting power power power), but there are some great nuggets. I've not yet made a careful study of his yoga nidra teachings, but if you've not yet explored his "take" on this, it might be the missing link.
To digress, Satyananda very very adamently warns not to EVER sleep right after yoga practices. he says that doing so even once can derail your whole sadhana, and has all sorts of tips for avoiding dozing off during/after meditation et al. However, he also (separately) recommends meditating and doing mantra as you drift off to sleep. Maddeningly confusing.
This might clear it up , this is taken from a satsang of Swami Satyananda
"The problem of sleep
I wish to give a warning, however, to all those who are keen to pursue meditation to the extent of realization and samadhi. Meditation should only start after the scientific process of relaxation has been completed. If not, they will always talk of sleep, lethargy, and failures that follow entering meditation abruptly.
During the practice of meditation, the main problem is sleep, which you experience as you relax. First drowsiness dawns and then deep slumber. For those who want to remove tensions, sleep is necessary, but those who seek spiritual evolution will have to find a solution for this problem. If you want to attain samadhi or to contact the astral body, the mysterious kundalini and other higher forms of meditation, it becomes all the more essential to know the technique to overcome this difficulty.
The complaint of all aspirants is that when they succeed in attaining inner silence, they fall asleep and realize it only afterwards when the awareness revives. No doubt they feel fresh, but spiritual evolution is arrested there itself. Even in the case of earnest aspirants, their spiritual progress is arrested because they enter into slumber. Housesholders who have to discharge various duties remain ever busy and are under continuous strain. Naturally they fall asleep even with a little concentration.
The other difficulty is that if the consciousness does not slumber partially, inner silence is difficult to achieve. So, there is difficulty in both ways. The mind has to be drowsy to a certain degree and, at the same time, one has to be careful not to sleep. Therefore, it is necessary for those who want to avoid sleep during meditation to keep a few points in mind. First, you will have to practise detachment. You will have to reject the continuity of thought by constant and persistent practice. This is the first solution.
The second solution is asana and pranayama. When you get up in the morning, have a wash and practise some asanas like sarvangasana or sirshasana. This will check the tendency to sleep. Deep breathing as in ujjayi pranayama decarbonizes the system, removing drowsiness while increasing introversion. When you feel that you are about to sleep, start nadi shodhana pranayama and kumbhaka, using the ratio 1:4:2. Practise five rounds and then concentrate. This is beneficial for those who face waves of depression due to tension and continuous thinking. If you can minimize the degree of depression, you will be able to visualize the object of your meditation very clearly. " |
Edited by - arzkiyahai on Oct 26 2009 05:59:19 AM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2009 : 10:38:00 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Night Techniques
