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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 04 2011 : 12:44:42 AM
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Hi, :)
Here is an update on something wonderful that I've realized today. I think I know what inner silence is now. !!! Maybe. !!
During my morning meditation, I gave up. I just got fed up with all the techniques, being effortless, trying too hard, not trying hard enough.. I just sat and said to myself "AUM NAMAH SHIVAYA", gave an intention of worshipping God with my heart and then just simply repeated "AUM NAMAH SHIVAYA". I believe I had my tongue on the roof of my mouth and was doing a mild sambhavi, but it kills me because I can't remember for sure. Odds are that I was.
I repeated that mantra, with no special effort, sort of like I didn't care. I wasn't trying to be effortless. I wasn't trying to really focus on it. At one point, it occured to me to start visualizing that mantra but I gave up on that too. I just kind of mentally repeated "AUM NAMAH SHIVAYA" like I couldn't care less about anything, and half-heartedly listened to it. Then it happened.
I saw a shift in the center of my head. It resembled a cloud of astral light and I could see what looked like an artery or shaft of white light shift over and away. The next thing I knew, I was immersed in white light, no thoughts, feeling blissful and peaceful. Really peaceful. It lasted a few seconds. Then I noticed I was off the mantra and I went back to repeating it, carelessly.
Then, the whole shift happened again! I found myself immersed in a cloud of white thick light, feeling blissful and peaceful! No thoughts, not much of anything else.
I must admit, I like the state very much. In fact, I was so looking forward to being in it again through careless mantra repetition, that I think that is why it didn't happen again during the afternoon meditation.
Now I am getting anxious to experience that again. A kind of anxiety is developing that I won't be able to do it again. And, I'm really mad at myself for not understanding the proper procedure to get into that state. I think I have been either trying too hard, fiddling around too much or being too concerned with the mantra repetition during meditations that I have done in the past 4 years.
Although, I do admit, I've hit that state a few times in the last four years. Once, I hit that same state very quickly by just trying to find the feeling of "me" in the body. I ended up on the right side of the heart, the white light appeared accompanied by large amounts of bliss and I laughed so hard it pulled me out of it. Also, I hit that stat a few times by visually 'flashing' the "I am" mantra in the center of the head. I needed confirmation that that state is what is to be sought after.. I never realized that that could be the AYP inner silence.. Is it?
In Rosenthal's book on Transcendence (TM), he has examples about how TM meditators experience transcendance regularily during meditation.
The impact of today's meditation experience is still mushrooming in me. I think in one sense, during meditations, I've gone far beyond and very deep into awareness and have experienced some interesting phenomenon. I have also learned many different methods and styles of mantra repetition (with meaning, without meaning, intuiting the mantra, pulsing the mantra from the lower tan tien, stretching it out, visualizing the letters, focusing just on the "I" etc..). I'm kind of amazed at the simplicity of today's experience..
Now come the questions:
Did I hit INNER SILENCE twice today? Was that it?
COULD THIS BE CALLED TRANSCENDANCE as in TM?
WILL THIS STATE GROW LONGER THE MORE I AM IN IT?
Do you hit this state every time you meditate using simple mantra repetition?
Does it last long?
In Rosenthal's book on TM, there are some examples of meditators who stay in transcendance throughout the whole meditation session. Does this happen to you? Would that be a good thing?
Yogani, if that is inner silence, you wrote that you can enjoy the state, but it is the going in repeatedly that does the purification.. It almost seems that spending 1/2 and hour in inner silence bathing in the light is not the thing to do, but instead, come out of it and then repeat the mantra.. I'm confused here.. If you are seeing the light and you have no thoughts, isn't your sky of the mind clear of clouds?
Yogani, if you are listening, I would sure appreciate your insights..
:)
TI
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2011 : 03:36:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Non-reaction and purifying the subconscious causes the light to shine!!
I had this little experience with light sometime ago. I hope you can describe what it was. 
It just happened suddenly without any warning during my morning meditation. I can't describe it exactly as it was too overwhelming when it happened. So I'll put it in fragments I remember.
There was sound of OM... like a BIG BIG massive tsunamic roar, I had never heard anything so stunning and shockingly loud. It was like an alarm blowing away not only my sleep, but my life, my mind, my dreams, everything...
And simultaneously there was Light... immense universal tusnamic bang of light... the whole world was blown/washed away with it... I saw Ramana, Osho, Buddha, Lord Shiva... consumed away in this wave of light and roar.
And then I was myself consumed away in it and just this pure light and roaring remained. I was myself its source.
I felt like dying and being born at the same time.
I literally cried OM in one breath for a minute or so (my family told me this as they came running outside my room hearing my cry). Then I fell on the floor and my tailbone and back of my head were glued with the ground.
I felt great pain at these two spots but my heart at the same time rose upwards. I started laughing... insanely.
I used to laugh without reason while ejaculating when I was young. But this laugh was even more insane. Because it was like I was having a hundred ejaculations.
It took me a few hours to cooldown after this and I thought I had some great Samadhi. But it was not even close to Samadhi.
I discovered Samadhi only after reading Nisargadatta.
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machi
Belgium
35 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2011 : 04:16:08 AM
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quote:
Now I am getting anxious to experience that again. A kind of anxiety is developing that I won't be able to do it again. And, I'm really mad at myself for not understanding the proper procedure to get into that state. I think I have been either trying too hard, fiddling around too much or being too concerned with the mantra repetition during meditations that I have done in the past 4 years.
I emotionally understand your anxiety, because I have suffered from this malice as well. It is important to purify yourself from it. The anxiety originates partially from the desire to achieve results, to have experiences. This is an impure foundation that will ultimately hamper your practise. Your motivations have to be *pure*. If not, this will reflect on your meditation. You say that you become really mad - that is a very bad result to obtain from a meditation!
You must try to accept that experiences are guidestones on the path to the ultimate destination. If you park your car with a guidestone, you will obviously never arrive at the destination! Experiences can indicate the awakening of a chakra, the opening of nadi, etc and can give the practisioner a teaser of what is beyond. Just continue your practise and focus on what lies beyond. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2011 : 10:01:20 AM
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Hi TI:
Easily coming back to the mantra is not "coming out" of the experience we are in. It is simply favoring the mantra at whatever level of clarity we are at in the mind, and continuing. No adjustment in attention is necessary beyond a simple favoring wherever we are when we notice we are off the mantra.
Nothing is left behind, except our analysis of what is happening while we are meditating. Best to save the analysis for later. Or forget about analysis altogether, and just practice daily with consistency. Letting go of the need to analyze is the way forward.
The nature of our experience during meditation is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant during meditation is consistent application of the procedure. When we understand this and take it to heart, we will find life overall becoming better naturally. This is where we find the beneficial results of meditation, not during meditation.
The guru is in you.
PS: I am not able advise much on the effects of modifications to the AYP baseline system, including the use of alternate mantras. See Lesson 384 on that. As you know, the variations are endless, and it is not possible to try them all in one lifetime, or in 100 lifetimes! To what avail? It is like that with analyzing experiences too -- an endless labyrinth of mind stuff. Much more effective to practice one thing consistently with complete innocence than to practice 100 things inconsistently while analyzing every detail. As always, it's your call.
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2011 : 11:28:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Non-reaction and purifying the subconscious causes the light to shine!!
I had this little experience with light sometime ago. I hope you can describe what it was.
It just happened suddenly without any warning during my morning meditation. I can't describe it exactly as it was too overwhelming when it happened. So I'll put it in fragments I remember.
There was sound of OM... like a BIG BIG massive tsunamic roar, I had never heard anything so stunning and shockingly loud. It was like an alarm blowing away not only my sleep, but my life, my mind, my dreams, everything...
And simultaneously there was Light... immense universal tusnamic bang of light... the whole world was blown/washed away with it... I saw Ramana, Osho, Buddha, Lord Shiva... consumed away in this wave of light and roar.
And then I was myself consumed away in it and just this pure light and roaring remained. I was myself its source.
I felt like dying and being born at the same time.
I literally cried OM in one breath for a minute or so (my family told me this as they came running outside my room hearing my cry). Then I fell on the floor and my tailbone and back of my head were glued with the ground.
I felt great pain at these two spots but my heart at the same time rose upwards. I started laughing... insanely.
I used to laugh without reason while ejaculating when I was young. But this laugh was even more insane. Because it was like I was having a hundred ejaculations.
It took me a few hours to cooldown after this and I thought I had some great Samadhi. But it was not even close to Samadhi.
I discovered Samadhi only after reading Nisargadatta.
Hi Mangima :)
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I appreciate it.
quote:
I had this little experience with light sometime ago. I hope you can describe what it was.
That was quite the experience, Manigma.. What kind of meditation were you doing at the time? Was it bringing the root energy into the ajna, as you described in your 2009 post?
Yes, that is the light of Kundalini. It is very bright. Brighter than an arc welder's torch. Brighter than many suns. It is white hot, has even a touch of blue in it at places..
The big roar must have happened when your kundalini passed through the heart chakra. (unstruck sounds)
When kundalini passes through the second and third chakra up until the heart, yes it feels like having 1000 orgasms all at once. But above the heart it transmutes into finer energy..
Sounds like kundalini grounded itself into the earth through your root and bindu..
Kundalini is a firey light, so bright and powerful. I have seen that light twice, and experienced that ecstasy as well. I lost interest in sex for many months after, because sex pales in comparison!
The light that I see in my head is similar but not so bright, although sometimes it does get pretty bright. The light that I see is from the star over the top of the head, or at the third eye. The third eye light looks like a cool moon or pale disc. Sometimes, if I spend more time on the heart, I will also see bright white light (looks kind of misty) project outwards revealing other planes and beings in there.. but I haven't done that for a while now..
So Manigma, when you say that you discovered Samadhi (formal interpretations aside), was the discovery an experience too? What was that like?
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2011 : 11:52:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by machi
I emotionally understand your anxiety, because I have suffered from this malice as well. It is important to purify yourself from it. The anxiety originates partially from the desire to achieve results, to have experiences. This is an impure foundation that will ultimately hamper your practise. Your motivations have to be *pure*. If not, this will reflect on your meditation. You say that you become really mad - that is a very bad result to obtain from a meditation!
You must try to accept that experiences are guidestones on the path to the ultimate destination. If you park your car with a guidestone, you will obviously never arrive at the destination! Experiences can indicate the awakening of a chakra, the opening of nadi, etc and can give the practisioner a teaser of what is beyond. Just continue your practise and focus on what lies beyond.
Hi Machi :)
When I experienced the anxiety, I was thinking to myself that the transcendant experience is so finicky, fleeting and unstable that I won't be able to reproduce it at will. My mind wants something consistent, the ability to hit that state consistently. I'm convinced that once I get the right technique, I will experience transcendence regularily, as supposedly is the case with many others. I'm so scared of wasting my time. I keep thinking of people who've meditated for years, 20 or 30 years, and have never succeeded in stopping the mind and experiencing what is beyond. You read about those people mostly in the advaita camps. Those are the people who want freedom from having to practice and meditate. It seems that those teachers use clever tactics and philosophies to detach the mind and make them believe that they are already enlightened. This is just my present opinion..
The meditation did not make me mad. The realization that maybe I had been doing all the wrong things for many years did. I say "maybe" because I haven't had much experience in this new transcendant state. Once I spend more time in it, I should be able to assess what other practices come close to or even surpass it. I have so many questions, like is it possible to turn your attention around and do self-inquiry in the transcendent state? Will that state expand into infinity? I read a statement from the Maharishi that invited the Beatles to experience the transcendant state 24 hours a day. Is that even possible? At this point I think I may be falling prey to language and communication barriers, or maybe even good marketing.. who knows.
Anyway, thank you for your concern and input.
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2011 : 12:28:41 AM
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Hi Yogani :)
Thank you so much for your response. I appreciate your time and advice.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi TI:
Easily coming back to the mantra is not "coming out" of the experience we are in. It is simply favoring the mantra at whatever level of clarity we are at in the mind, and continuing. No adjustment in attention is necessary beyond a simple favoring wherever we are when we notice we are off the mantra.
Nothing is left behind, except our analysis of what is happening while we are meditating. Best to save the analysis for later. Or forget about analysis altogether, and just practice daily with consistency. Letting go of the need to analyze is the way forward.
The nature of our experience during meditation is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant during meditation is consistent application of the procedure. When we understand this and take it to heart, we will find life overall becoming better naturally. This is where we find the beneficial results of meditation, not during meditation.
I guess I'm saying that I don't know the procedure. Because, if I did I would be experiencing transcendance during meditation. I thought Deep Meditation was like TM. How can TM have the goal of experiencing transcendance during meditation, while Deep Meditation does not? Is not the goal an indicator of proper technique?
Today, I went back to my regular routine: prayer, bhastrika, spinal breathing and then 20 minutes of "i am" meditation.
What happens is that the mantra turns into visible thoughts. I mentally repeat "i am" and it releases an intertwined bunch of visions, that, upon examination, first look like colorful ribbons that change into people, faces, things, objects, more thoughts. It isn't a sound, it is a vibration of colorful pictures. I never hit the point where my mind actually shuts off. Not like yesterday's experience.
Perhaps I have misused that mantra for so long that I have trained my mind unknowingly to produce these streams or ribbons of form-stuff. Or perhaps it is deep purification and I just don't know that that is what is occuring.. Maybe it is the subconscious doing house cleaning? Will it ever end?
And then, there is the question, why do house cleaning when I can jump right into inner silence using the proper technique.. (if I can call that state 'inner silence', and if I can finally get the proper technique).
I don't want to burden you with my problems. I'm sure I will work them out.
Thanks again.
:)
TI |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2011 : 03:32:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
That was quite the experience, Manigma.. What kind of meditation were you doing at the time? Was it bringing the root energy into the ajna, as you described in your 2009 post?
Well I was not going to meditate that morning. But I was sort of restless/uneasy when I woke up and felt being compelled/forced to meditate. So I just went into my meditation room, locked it and sat down. Did no fiddling with energy, no efforts, no mantras, no witnessing. You can call it 'Whatever Meditation'. LOL.
I didn't know what the heck the experience was but I said something like 'Jesus. What a mind-job.' ~Cypher [The Matrix]
I didn't lose interest in sex after that but it changed the way I had sex . I had several experiences after that... for months. There were so many that I didn't care and I eventually got bored with experiences.
Here is another I can't remember when exactly it happened:
I was observing the cool sun in my third eye and was suddenly pulled beyond/within it. I saw a Universe with all the galaxies in it... then I was taken even further beyond/upwards and I saw Universes... millions and millions of Universes (just like we have galaxies in a Universe). And all the Universes were floating inside my belly and my belly was glowing. It was so beautiful and blissful. I felt like I was a pregnant woman.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
So Manigma, when you say that you discovered Samadhi (formal interpretations aside), was the discovery an experience too? What was that like?
In short, Samadhi is end of all experiences, and the experiencer.
Q: What happened to you then? How did you know that you are the Supreme?
Nisargadatta: Nobody came to tell me. Nor was I told so inwardly. In fact, it was only in the beginning when I was making efforts, that I was passing through some strange experiences; seeing lights, hearing voices, meeting gods and goddesses and conversing with them. Once the Guru told me: 'You are the Supreme Reality', I ceased having visions and trances and became very quiet and simple. I found myself desiring and knowing less and less, until I could say in utter astonishment: 'I know nothing, I want nothing.'
Q: Is devotion not useful as an initial step?
Nisargadatta: First step or second step, I have the first and final step at the same time! The knowledge "I am," without words, itself is the Ishwara. He, Ishwara, does not want another (Maya) agent or intermediary. Direct.
You know that you are sitting here; you know you are, do you require any special effort to hold on to that "you are"? You know you are; abide in that. The "I am" principle without words, that itself is the God of all Ishwaras.
That state of being is common to all, that is the message 'I am' without words. Change is only in the mind-flow. All the studies you are doing are in the realm of mind-flow. The sense of 'I am' is present because of your birth, through which you encounter many thoughts and concepts, always changing. Presently the message 'I am' is constant.
~ Nisargadatta
That is just what it is... becoming very quiet and simple. Natural.
I have said this to you earlier also in your 'What is Inner Silence?' thread. When you discover Samadhi (Inner Silence), it would be end of all your questions.
Here is why:
INQUIRER: When the mind is immersed in samadhi, does one or does one not experience the supernormal (camatkara)? If so, does this imply that one has deviated from the object of one's contemplation? And what is the real cause of this?
SRI MA: Samadhi means samadhana (solution, completion).
INQUIRER: Solution involves a question, whereas samadhi is a state in itself.
SRI MA: This body does not use the language of the shastras; it refers to ordinary things, such as water, earth, air, and so forth, when it speaks. Those who have understanding are able to comprehend this kind of broken and incomplete language. Samadhana signifies the perfect resolution of form, formlessness, manifested being, and non-being - of everything. The solution of a problem is one thing; yet there is another kind of resolution where the possibility of problems and their solutions cannot occur; this is called samadhi.
INQUIRER: Quite so; thus there are two kinds of samadhi, namely savikalpa and nirvicalpa.
SRI MA: The first signifies the resolution of cosmic existence into the One Pure Existence (Satta), and as for the second - there, there is even no such thing as 'Existence'.
INQUIRER: No such thing as 'Existence'? What then is it?
SRI MA: So long as thoughts and ideas (sankalpa and vikalpa) persist, not even Savikalpa samadhi can occur. Savikalpa samadhi signifies Awareness of Existence. But when there is no question of Existence - when there is no possibility of differentiating 'what is' from 'what is not' - can anything be expressed in words, however little?
This is nirvikalpa samadhi.
~ Sri Anandamayi Ma
http://www.anandamayi.org/books/atmnda.htm
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2011 : 10:38:58 AM
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Hi TI
I know this was all said to Yogani, but I felt drawn to share my perspective here so hopefully something said will be helpful.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I guess I'm saying that I don't know the procedure. Because, if I did I would be experiencing transcendance during meditation. I thought Deep Meditation was like TM. How can TM have the goal of experiencing transcendance during meditation, while Deep Meditation does not? Is not the goal an indicator of proper technique?
I don't know too much about TM, but I can say with certainty that the goal of AYP DM is not to experience transcendance during meditation. The goal of AYP DM is to clean out the nervous system so that we can live a more fulfilled daily life. TM and AYP (from what I understand) have similar procedures, but if the goal of TM meditation is to experience transcendance during meditation then that is much different from the goal with AYP DM.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Today, I went back to my regular routine: prayer, bhastrika, spinal breathing and then 20 minutes of "i am" meditation.
Switching practices so often is only going to water down the effects of everything you are practicing.... I know you know this, but from reading your posts it seems you are constantly switching procedures. Doing this is not very effective for experiencing long term results. Inconsistent practice yields inconsistent results.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
What happens is that the mantra turns into visible thoughts. I mentally repeat "i am" and it releases an intertwined bunch of visions, that, upon examination, first look like colorful ribbons that change into people, faces, things, objects, more thoughts. It isn't a sound, it is a vibration of colorful pictures. I never hit the point where my mind actually shuts off. Not like yesterday's experience.
"Examining" your visions during meditation is not AYP Deep Meditation. Going back to the mantra when you notice that you are having visions is AYP DM. I understand that the visions have a certain "draw" to them, but engaging with the visions during meditation is not meditation. And again, the goal of AYP DM is not to "shut the mind off" or to acheive any specific experience during meditation. The goal of AYP DM is to purify the nervous system. And that is achieved by returning to the mantra whenever you notice you are off of it. Examining your visions instead of returning to the mantra is not going to purify the nervous system.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Perhaps I have misused that mantra for so long that I have trained my mind unknowingly to produce these streams or ribbons of form-stuff.
During DM the stuff that "comes up" (visions, sensations, thoughts, etc) is the stuff that is being purified out of the nervous system. But if you choose not to return to the mantra when you notice this stuff arising and instead choose to analyze and "play with" the stuff that's coming to the surface, then what is arising is not released. It doesn't matter at all what is coming to the surface... what matters is going back to the mantra and continuing with the simple procedure of favoring the mantra and returning to it when you notice you are off of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
And then, there is the question, why do house cleaning when I can jump right into inner silence using the proper technique.. (if I can call that state 'inner silence', and if I can finally get the proper technique).
"Inner Silence" is not something that is (just) experienced during meditation. Inner Silence is the byproduct of doing the simple DM procedure and it is experienced all day long. Trying to acheive a specific state during meditation is watering down the effectiveness of the practice. When you notice that you are not experiencing Inner Silence in DM, go back to the mantra. When you notice that you are experiencing Inner Silence in DM, go back to the mantra. Whenever you notice anything in DM, you are off the mantra and you need to easily go back to putting your attention on the mantra. The "proper" technique is very simple and it appears that you are complicating things and because of this are not finding the benefits. The benefits of consistant twice daily DM practice (over an extended period of time) is not found during meditation time.... it is found outside of meditation time while engaged in daily activity. If you are doing DM to experience specific states of mind/no-mind during meditation, then DM is likely not the procedure for you. If you are looking to experience a happier, more fulfilled daily life, then DM will do that. I guess it all comes down to figuring out what your motivation is for practicing meditation.
Love!
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2011 : 10:29:19 PM
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Hi Carson :)
Just thought I'd mention that I really enjoyed listening to your radio interview. It is such a great thing that you got out of the addictions. Good for you! It was also very interesting to learn that politics and self-interest run rampant, even in the rehabilitation world..
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I don't know too much about TM, but I can say with certainty that the goal of AYP DM is not to experience transcendance during meditation. The goal of AYP DM is to clean out the nervous system so that we can live a more fulfilled daily life. TM and AYP (from what I understand) have similar procedures, but if the goal of TM meditation is to experience transcendance during meditation then that is much different from the goal with AYP DM.
I've never learned TM either, but lately I was thinking that 'inner silence' is the same as the state of 'transcendence'. In Rosenthal's book on transcendence, he says that TM takes you directly to the state of turiya.
And, in lesson 157, Yogani says:
http://www.aypsite.org/157.html
quote:
4. Inner silence -- it is all those descriptive words and definitions mentioned already. In yoga it is sometimes called simply "Turiya," which means "the fourth state" in sanskrit.
Inner silence and Turiya are the same state. Aren't they?
I thought the goal of Deep Meditation was to create some inner silence..
Here are some quotes from Lesson 157:
quote:
Inner silence is at the heart of yoga. Without it, there can be no yoga.
...
Samyama and enlightenment (first stage and beyond) depend on innate inner
silence that will be there whether the mind is "burbling" or not. It also
comes up in dreaming state and deep sleep -- that's 24/7 inner silence.
Once we have that rising, we are becoming ready for serious yoga, union of
the subject and the object, and that is the union of the divine poles
within us leading to the unity condition where all is experienced as a
divine flow of the One.
...
So, the reason why be begin with meditation in these lessons is to
cultivate inner silence first, the prerequisite for all the rest that
happens in yoga. Once we have that coming up, it is possible to open many
doors.
In my vocabulary, the word 'reason' is like the word 'goal'. With all the emphasis on inner silence, one might well assume that inner silence is a major goal. According to Yogani's writings, if you don't have inner silence first, not much is going to happen. So it is definately something to aim for. It is a goal, isn't it?
quote:
you said
Switching practices so often is only going to water down the effects of everything you are practicing....
Sometimes. However, sometimes, the first time you try something is the best and it works like it should. Perhaps it is the extra energy given by trying something 'new', higher levels of interest the first time you try something, or perhaps that the mind hasn't had a chance to grasp and dullen it's experience. Wasn't it Adyashanti who said "After a while nothing works anymore."? Didn't Buddha advocate not taking his word for anything but trying out and testing the teaching one's self?
Also, sometimes it is nice to try a new practice because there are new insights to be gained. For example, I never realized the causal body and the golden light until I started meditating on "who is the watcher?". If I focus inward at the outward mantra, I meet thoughts and my action is probably feeding the thoughts energy. If I focus inward but turn my attention around to "what is watching" I am no longer feeding my thoughts energy.
quote:
I know you know this, but from reading your posts it seems you are constantly switching procedures. Doing this is not very effective for experiencing long term results. Inconsistent practice yields inconsistent results.
In buddhist teachings it is common to find that not focusing on the result is an asset. Be perfect in what you do. The result will take care of itself. I think we develop these simplified little phrases to motivate meditators to stay on the path. (Be happy, I could have said that there is no past and no future, so who cares what happens in the future, only the 'now' matters.. ha ha)
I know that consistent practice yields consistent results as long as you have the right technique. When John Daido Loori, in his book called "Finding the Still Point" says that perfect posture causes the body to drop away after a short time (and eventually the mind too), and when I try it and it works, I know I have the right technique. If I start to slouch, it doesn't work anymore. Then, when you read meditation instructions that say it really doesn't matter how you sit, you start to wonder about the veracity of the claim, or perhaps that there is some other mechanism which works better.. There are so many writings and teachings out there, how is a person supposed to know which technique is accurate? For example, there are so many instructions on breath meditation, but none of them that I have seen, except for Buddha's instructions, say to relax on the in-breath, relax on the out-breath and feel the whole body while monitoring the breath. The breath is actually secondary and you watch it only to rest in the knowledge of what type of pattern it is producing (slow, fast, short, long..)
quote:
"Examining" your visions during meditation is not AYP Deep Meditation.
I know that. Ok. Bad use of the term. I don't stop and look at the visions. There is no division between repeating the mantra and seeing the visions. The mantra itself becomes the visions! You can't help but see the visions/colors etc. The thought of the mantra is actually a stream of light and color, which, when I am that deep, becomes a movement. And in the movement, visions and objects exist.
Saying the mantra is like releasing a streamer into the mind. At first you see the streamer. Then you see the streamer is made of small balls of light. Then one of the balls of light turns into a face or an image..
It is kind of like this. You are supposed to meditate on a 'tree'. The tree is the mantra, figuratively speaking. When you first look at the object, you see a tree. But as you continually bring your attention back to the tree, the tree breaks down into finer components. Now you can see branches, leaves, bark. As you go deeper, not only do you see the whole tree, then the branches, leaves and bark, but you start to see the cells and the atoms. If you go deeper,you start to see it's life force and the space that it occupies, the shiny substance that radiates through it's cells.
So, for me, either the mantra thought itself has much depth and other things in it which are being revealed, or the mantra is stirring up other thoughts. Or perhaps all thoughts are contained within one thought? Perhaps energy movement itself is producing the panorama. I don't know. Maybe the only way to stop the mind is to not feed it any attention (energy).
I've just had a realization.. Maybe I am grasping at the thought of the mantra! Perhaps I'm hitting a superconscious level of mind and I don't realize that the mind's horsepower has increased, and I'm grasping at the mantra! Maybe I have to let the mantra go sooner, or really lighten my touch of attention (grasping) at that point. I wonder.. I will try that.. I remember getting into a superconscious level of mind a few year ago, when during an arduous meditation session, all of a sudden the long mantra I was reciting became effortless. It became so easy, there was no effort to remember the next word in the mantra. All of a sudden I was the master of my mind. It did exactly what I directed it, quickly, effortlessly, and I could see all the words in the mantra in beautiful color, sort of like a satori state..
It has never occured to me that perhaps I am shifting into the superconscious state during mantra meditation..
quote:
During DM the stuff that "comes up" (visions, sensations, thoughts, etc) is the stuff that is being purified out of the nervous system.
Now I'm just having fun now.. According the buddhists, the mind is infinite, clear, spacious, unlimited and omnipresent. It is the ground from which all form is born and into which all form dissolves. So I'm not sure that you could ever purify your nervous system to the point where you have removed all visions, sensations, thoughts etc.. because that stuff is infinite mind, and the nervous system is part of the physical body. But I think it is possible to stop the motion of the mind, to stop the atman from drawing the universe and experience the truth..
Nisargadatta and some Buddhist teachings on the jhanas say that reality is rock solid, blissful and doesn't move. It is only our attention that moves.
Gurudeva has an interesting concept. He says that the attention is like a yoyo. It focuses upon a thought and then yoyo's back and then on to the next thought, and then back and so on. The thought never dissolves or disappears, it's just that the attention leaves the location of the thought. You don't create thoughts, you just move your attention to where the thought already exists. If you don't move your attention to any location, which is 'stillness', then there is nothing to distract you and you realize what reality truly is.
quote:
If you are doing DM to experience specific states of mind/no-mind during meditation, then DM is likely not the procedure for you.
I disagree. I would like to stop the mind. I want to experience inner silence. I would also like to be enlightened. I want to understand the mystery of life. And, I would like to be free of the tyranny of the mind, the ups and downs, the pains and pleasures, the meaningless experiences life seems to offer and realize what I really am.
Thanks for your comments..
:)
TI
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Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jul 05 2011 10:38:31 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2011 : 04:37:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I would like to stop the mind.
Oh, you. You just couldn't let me go, could you? This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You are truly incorruptible, aren't you? Huh? You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won't kill you because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever.
~ The Joker [Dark Knight]
Unstoppable force = Mind
Immovable object = You
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
And, I would like to be free of the tyranny of the mind, the ups and downs, the pains and pleasures, the meaningless experiences life seems to offer and realize what I really am.
Dilios: The enemy outnumber us a paltry three to one, good odds for any Greek. This day we rescue a world from mysticism and tyranny and usher in a future brighter than anything we can imagine.
(puts on his helmet)
Give thanks, men, to Leonidas and the brave 300!
TO VICTORY!
(the Greek army roars and charges)
~ [300]
Don't forget to put on your helmet. Better fight and die then to surrender and become a slave. I like that spirit.
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escapado
Germany
88 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2011 : 08:49:49 AM
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| Jed mckenna style? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2011 : 11:01:56 AM
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Hi TI
I only have a second so sorry that I can't respond to your entire post.
Inner Silence is not a state of mind that you just tap into. Inner Silence is the result of a having a purified nervous system. And the nervous system is purified through effective and consistent practice. At least that is the way it is perceived here.
Love!
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2011 : 1:33:48 PM
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Hi TI,
I think it's great that you want to become enlightened. As for inner silence, and goals, and enlightenment, Yogani has written quite a lot about it in the main lessons and in his books.
There are two stages to inner silence, the first stage is the cultivation of the witness. The witness is what is aware of everything that is happening. So when you are trying to find inner silence, the awareness of that seeking is the witness. When you are frustrated because you cannot stop the mind, the awareness of that movement of frustration is the witness. And the witness is inner silence. So it is a step back from the game of life so to speak.
The second stage of inner silence is a movement beyond the witness, which is a merging of the subject/ object divide. This is unity where everything is seen to be a part of the divine flow in action.
I don't believe that Yogani has ever said that inner silence is a goal of yoga, but rather that it is an important milestone on the path, and a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. Enlightenment is the transition from a normal life to a divine life which is a state of never ending ecstatic bliss and divine love. Love is a higher state of ecstasy and a product of ecstasy. You could say that divine love is the nature of ecstasy as it spills over in unity. This is the goal of yoga, and inner silence plays an important part in the process, but is only a part of the process, not one to get hung up over.
Achieving the goal of yoga requires a good house cleaning first in terms of purifying the subtle nervous system and the physical body. This is because we cannot rise to a state of continuous ecstasy if there are still obstructions remaining. It would be too painful. With some good house cleaning (purification) and the rise of inner silence (witness) the body begins to become trasformed to a higher level of functioning. Without this there can be no enlightenment. This is why we have so many different practices in yoga, all designed to play a part in bringing the whole process of transformation together.
Christi |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2011 : 2:58:40 PM
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Hi Manigma :)
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
...
Dilios: The enemy outnumber us a paltry three to one, good odds for any Greek. This day we rescue a world from mysticism and tyranny and usher in a future brighter than anything we can imagine.
(puts on his helmet)
Give thanks, men, to Leonidas and the brave 300!
TO VICTORY!
(the Greek army roars and charges)
~ [300]
Don't forget to put on your helmet. Better fight and die then to surrender and become a slave. I like that spirit.
Have you been spying on me again? I was just watching that movie [300] the other night for the third time!
:)
TI |
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escapado
Germany
88 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2011 : 3:32:05 PM
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| the omniscient spirit y'know |
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jenniferad
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2011 : 11:15:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
What happens is that the mantra turns into visible thoughts. I mentally repeat "i am" and it releases an intertwined bunch of visions, that, upon examination, first look like colorful ribbons that change into people, faces, things, objects, more thoughts. It isn't a sound, it is a vibration of colorful pictures. I never hit the point where my mind actually shuts off. Not like yesterday's experience.
Perhaps I have misused that mantra for so long that I have trained my mind unknowingly to produce these streams or ribbons of form-stuff. Or perhaps it is deep purification and I just don't know that that is what is occuring.. Maybe it is the subconscious doing house cleaning? Will it ever end?
And then, there is the question, why do house cleaning when I can jump right into inner silence using the proper technique.. (if I can call that state 'inner silence', and if I can finally get the proper technique).
I hope it ok for a very new person to AYP to say something.
I was rereading the lesson on Deep Meditation (http://www.aypsite.org/13.html) this evening, and if I may, I'd like to point out that when you are repeating the "I am" mantra, you are following the procedure. When "the mantra releases an intertwined bunch of visions," and then you examine those visions, you are not repeating the mantra, you are examining the visions and you have stopped repeating the mantra. Then the procedure is to start repeating it again. That's it. It is elegantly simple.
All the rest that is happening (visions, thoughts, emotions) will keep happening. You don't need to do anything about it. You just keep repeating the mantra, and when you realize you aren't repeating the mantra, you start again. That is housecleaning. Others have answered why you do the housecleaning instead of trying to jump into some other state.
Jennifer |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2011 : 11:46:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi TI,
I think it's great that you want to become enlightened. As for inner silence, and goals, and enlightenment, Yogani has written quite a lot about it in the main lessons and in his books.
There are two stages to inner silence, the first stage is the cultivation of the witness. The witness is what is aware of everything that is happening. So when you are trying to find inner silence, the awareness of that seeking is the witness. When you are frustrated because you cannot stop the mind, the awareness of that movement of frustration is the witness. And the witness is inner silence. So it is a step back from the game of life so to speak.
The second stage of inner silence is a movement beyond the witness, which is a merging of the subject/ object divide. This is unity where everything is seen to be a part of the divine flow in action.
I don't believe that Yogani has ever said that inner silence is a goal of yoga, but rather that it is an important milestone on the path, and a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. Enlightenment is the transition from a normal life to a divine life which is a state of never ending ecstatic bliss and divine love. Love is a higher state of ecstasy and a product of ecstasy. You could say that divine love is the nature of ecstasy as it spills over in unity. This is the goal of yoga, and inner silence plays an important part in the process, but is only a part of the process, not one to get hung up over.
Achieving the goal of yoga requires a good house cleaning first in terms of purifying the subtle nervous system and the physical body. This is because we cannot rise to a state of continuous ecstasy if there are still obstructions remaining. It would be too painful. With some good house cleaning (purification) and the rise of inner silence (witness) the body begins to become trasformed to a higher level of functioning. Without this there can be no enlightenment. This is why we have so many different practices in yoga, all designed to play a part in bringing the whole process of transformation together.
Christi
Hi Christi,
Yes, Yogani has written much about inner silence. Here is a concise description from "Copy of a lesson posted in AdancedYogaPractices Tantra Group, 4/18/04:":
quote:
On the level of our personal experience in the body it is the union
of our blissful inner silence, cultivated mainly in deep meditation,
with our whole body ecstasy, cultivated in spinal breathing and other
pranayamas, mudras, bandhas and tantric sexual methods.
On the level of tantric mythological metaphors it is the union of
Shiva and Shakti, which correspond to the direct experiences of
silence and ecstasy just mentioned.
...
The rise of Shiva, Shakti and their final union everywhere within us
make up the three stages of enlightenment – First, 24/7 inner
silence. Second, 24/7 whole body ecstasy. And third, 24/7 ecstatic
bliss, the joining of the divine polarities of silence and ecstasy,
yielding an endless outpouring of divine love, which is unity.
You know, it really doesn't matter, we are lost in semantics. But, when I read those statements, to me, in my perverse interpretation, inner silence is the goal of deep meditation and ecstatic conductivity is the goal of all of the other practices.
To me, the first goal is 24/7 inner silence, the second goal is 24/7 whole body ecstasy, and the third goal is join the two.
Christi, have you managed to join the two yet?
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2011 : 12:35:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jenniferad
I hope it ok for a very new person to AYP to say something.
I was rereading the lesson on Deep Meditation (http://www.aypsite.org/13.html) this evening, and if I may, I'd like to point out that when you are repeating the "I am" mantra, you are following the procedure. When "the mantra releases an intertwined bunch of visions," and then you examine those visions, you are not repeating the mantra, you are examining the visions and you have stopped repeating the mantra. Then the procedure is to start repeating it again. That's it. It is elegantly simple.
All the rest that is happening (visions, thoughts, emotions) will keep happening. You don't need to do anything about it. You just keep repeating the mantra, and when you realize you aren't repeating the mantra, you start again. That is housecleaning. Others have answered why you do the housecleaning instead of trying to jump into some other state.
Jennifer
Hi Jennifer :)
I appreciate all comments (some a little more than others.. kidding). :)
I think you have the procedure down for deep meditation.
That's what I did for a very long time (few years). Then, as I passed through the dream state and went deeper, I had very many meditations where all I could see was hundreds of streams of thoughts whizzing by in technicolor. Like being caught in a tornado of thought ribbons, or more like a water spout because the ribbons of thought were all travelling upwards, in the same direction. Then, I reached the state where the mantra thought itself was not separate from the thought ribbons, but became a ribbon itself.
Imagine, you are in a black empty space and you say the mantra, but a person appears at the exact location in your mind where the mantra was released. You say the mantra again and a school bus stretches out in your inner awareness in that location. You say the mantra and half a face appears and then grows into a flower. Each release of the mantra becomes an object or conglomerate of objects to the awareness.
I think I found the answer but now I'm not that sure. I thought I am hitting a superconscious state called turiya. It is pure consciousness. Any movement of mind creates something.
I found this about it:
link: http://civashakti.blogspot.com/2011...-turiya.html
quote:
The final and most intense state in Indian yoga refers to 'Turiya'. This is intense dreaming state, where there is presence of pure consciousness reflecting itself. And the meditator/perceiver is part of this, reflecting on her own consciousness.
To me, the key word is intense coupled with 'dreaming'. It is very intense. Sometimes I had to quit the meditation because I felt like I would be ripped apart, when the tornado/water spouts were appearing.
Perhaps it isn't turiya, but maybe it is the third eye. I've heard that you can create things using the third eye. Maybe my third eye is creating the visions when I repeat the mantra.
I'm just trying to get clarity and more information of this state, that is all. The general teaching here at AYP is that it is all scenery and in the final anaylis, it doesn't matter. And it probably doesn't! However, I am contrary. I like to learn about what is actually taking place and know what level I am at.
Thanks for your comments.
:)
TI |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2011 : 01:13:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Have you been spying on me again? I was just watching that movie [300] the other night for the third time!
Why would I spy on anyone?
I know what you are. And I have no interest in what you do or dream or desire.
Close your two eyes, close your third eye... go beyond!
I'll meet you there.
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2011 : 03:29:35 AM
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quote:
I'm just trying to get clarity and more information of this state, that is all. The general teaching here at AYP is that it is all scenery and in the final anaylis, it doesn't matter. And it probably doesn't! However, I am contrary. I like to learn about what is actually taking place and know what level I am at.
Isn't that the main problem? That you have to filter everything through your mind and see where you are at. To let go is not easy and we always try, consciously or not, to grab onto smth that gives us security. But there is none. Analyzation will bring you nowhere. I would advise you to just sit down, do the DM and look for the results in your daily life. Any progress is seen in your normal life and not in the meditation itself (at least here). In my opinion that is a very good approach. Instead of chasing some non-graspable concept of enlightenment you just strive for making every day a little bit better!
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2011 : 05:32:46 AM
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| agree 100 percent with Yaming |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2011 : 05:17:05 AM
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Hi TI,
quote:
You know, it really doesn't matter, we are lost in semantics. But, when I read those statements, to me, in my perverse interpretation, inner silence is the goal of deep meditation and ecstatic conductivity is the goal of all of the other practices.
To me, the first goal is 24/7 inner silence, the second goal is 24/7 whole body ecstasy, and the third goal is join the two.
Christi, have you managed to join the two yet?
It's never a done deal, where you can say, "yes I've done that".
In practice, whenever there is some level of ecstatic conductivity happening in the body and some level of bliss in the mind, then the merging of the two takes place. And it is an ongoing and progressive transformation which is unending.
The model you quoted about the goal of meditation, pranayama etc. is a simplification. It is true for the most part, but is not ultimately true. In the end, meditation is for ecstasy. Yogani writes about it here:
quote:
In yoga it is not possible to avoid dealing with sexual energy indefinitely, because sooner or later the nervous system becomes activated by the rise of kundalini, and inner ecstasy explodes inside. There is nothing more sensual than that. All of the advanced yoga practices are designed to promote ecstasy's natural rise in the nervous system. Even meditation is ultimately for that, coming from deep inner silence to union in ecstatic bliss everywhere in the body and beyond. That is why we call advancedyogapractices, "easy lessons for ecstatic living." [Yogani]
http://www.aypsite.org/127.html
This is really the key if you are interested in the goal of yoga, and of meditation (as meditation is yoga). When ecstasy and bliss merge everywhere in the body two things happen. Firstly a new energetic dynamic emerges in the body. It involves a rising current of energy and a falling current of energy meeting each other in the heart centre. This is a simplification of the process as there is also a lot of swirling around happening, but it gives you the basic idea. The merging in the heart creates the overflow of divine love. The second thing that happens is that this energy flow brings about the sublimation of sexual essences which rise up through the body and spill over as amrita. What is it like? Ecstatic bliss, divine love, unity, turya, all these things at once. Yogani writes about it here:
http://www.aypsite.org/T31.html
quote:
In fact, this ongoing experience of "coming" is the fruition of yoga, the rise of an unending state of ecstatic bliss and divine love in the nervous system. We can continue to function in this situation, because our nervous system acclimates to it, just as it does to all other enhancements in our spiritual neuro-biology that occur with long term practice of yoga. [Yogani]
What you are experiencing in meditation is savikalpa samadhi, samadhi with the movement of imagintion (vikalpa). If you let the mantra refine at this level you will gradually come beyond this stage to stillness and silence without imagination (nirvikalpa samadhi).
Turya is another name for the witness consciousness. Yogani gives the definition in the glossary here:
quote:
Turiya – means, “the fourth state.” This is the experience of inner silence cultivated in meditation. It is called turiya because it is distinct from the first three states of consciousness – waking, dreaming and deep dreamless sleep. As yoga practices advance, turiya gradually comes to coexist as a constant condition during the other three states of consciousness. It is the beginning stage of enlightenment. In that situation, one is never unconscious, whether awake, dreaming, or in deep sleep. That is called witnessing. [Yogani}
http://www.aypsite.org/glossary.html
All the best,
Christi |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2011 : 5:28:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
Isn't that the main problem? That you have to filter everything through your mind and see where you are at. To let go is not easy and we always try, consciously or not, to grab onto smth that gives us security. But there is none. Analyzation will bring you nowhere.
...
Hi Yaming,
Ignorance is bliss but it will not lead you to enlightenment. You have to have the ability to understand. It is knowledge that sets you free and produces enlightenment. Analyzing produces knowledge. That's what we are, "that which knows".
Here are some quotes in support of the acquisition and realization of knowledge:
link: http://www.shiningworld.com/top/ind...21&Itemid=27
quote:
Remember, the Self is all there is so knowledge of the individual and the world is also Self knowledge. In this sense it is like any other developed body of objective knowledge…the more you know the better.
and from another page on that site:
quote:
Enlightenment is the knowledge that I am Awareness, a fact unknown by most people.
and this:
quote:
17. The Self is hidden behind the mind. The mind must be removed so the Self can be revealed. True or False?
Answer: False.
18. Why is the above statement false?
a. Because the Self is self revealing
b. Because there is no mind
c. Because the mind cannot be removed
d. Only knowledge, not action, can reveal what is already present.
Answer: A and D. A is untrue because Consciousness is never covered. The fact that there is mind and a Self is only known because of Consciousness. Any covering would only be known because of Consciousness. Finally, there is nothing other than Consciousness to cover it. It is the focus on the events in Consciousness, one’s experience, that obscures one’s appreciation of the Self. ‘C’ is not correct because the mind is the consequence of impersonal Awareness illumining the vasanas which cause the mind. No individual can remove it. ‘D’ is self explanatory.
http://www.shiningworld.com/top/files/satsang-2/
and the pdf is called Mystic Experience Not Necessary for Enlightenment.pdf
quote:
Any experience…including Samadhi…is only as good as your ability to understand it. It is only valuable for the knowledge that it brings, since all samadhis are temporary. Knowledge transcends experience. It is always good, irrespective of what one is experiencing at the moment.
Thanks for your comments and the chance to reflect on these answers..
:)
TI
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Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jul 08 2011 5:35:44 PM |
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