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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 15 2011 : 10:52:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
During Spinal Breathing, the AYP Spinal Breathing, towards the end of the short routine, my body dissolves and I find myself in the sushumna with swirling lights and moving energies. Haven't figured out what to do about that yet. I think it is the "Arising and Passing" phase that Daniel Ingram talks about. I don't want to take it too far though because I end up in this vast dark space, and I become a jelly fish of light. I see no point to that, it is kind of boring, just hanging out there in space looking at the distant stars..
 Thank you for sharing. Hanging out can also be fun, but I can understand your desire to do something.
Since you enjoy energy practices, consider trying to "feel" the energy while doing normal daily activities sometime. Maybe while going for a walk (or even reading AYP posts). Meditation is also a way of life.
Peace & Love.
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2011 : 12:35:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Good luck to you.
LOL.
With the dropping of the primary experience 'I am',
all experiences will vanish and only the Absolute remains.
When this concept 'I am' departs,
there will be no memory left that 'I was' and 'I had' those experiences,
the very memory will be erased.
~Nisargadatta Gita
http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/The_...tta_E-Books/
Good luck to you!
Hi Manigma, :)
You know, Nisargadatta sure did say many things. I thought that what he wrote right before he passed on would somehow be more relevant.
So, when the "I am" departs, according to his writings as I quoted above, the vital breath leaves. Reminds me of Nirvikalpa Samadhi.
However, I am unclear about his last statement that you quoted. Does he mean that "the very memory will be erased" permanently? I don't know of one 'enlightened' teacher/guru who has permanently forgotten his past history or accumulation of experiences.. so it must not be that. He must be saying that while in Nirvikalpa Samadhi there is no memory.
It's an enigma, Manigma!
:)
Ti
Did you know that AYAM is MAYA spelled backwards! Or maybe it's the other way around.. :)
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2011 : 02:05:51 AM
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whether in Nirvikalpa Samadhi or any kind of samadhi....there is no doer...therefore how can there be any memory? each moment is completely fresh.
handling this may not be easy...some enlightened people "without memory" pass through phases were they are so unaware of themselves or the surroundings that they can not take care of themselves at all (Lakshmana Swamy and Saradamma passed through those stages)
then slowly the enlightened is able to be functional in the world....
but in all cases there no memory...the self never existed how could it have memory? |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2011 : 05:50:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
However, I am unclear about his last statement that you quoted. Does he mean that "the very memory will be erased" permanently? I don't know of one 'enlightened' teacher/guru who has permanently forgotten his past history or accumulation of experiences.. so it must not be that. He must be saying that while in Nirvikalpa Samadhi there is no memory.
As you know, computers have a memory called RAM (Random Access Memory). Unlike 'Hard Drives', anything stored in this volatile memory is erased when the computer is restarted or shut down.
When a person goes into Deep Sleep, or Savikalpa Samadhi, its in a state similar to a computer's 'Standby' or Hibernation' mode. The RAM data is not erased in this state.
When a person dies... its like the computer being reset and anything stored in its RAM is erased.
But when someone achieves Nirvikalpa or Sahaja Samadhi... its 'Super Death', its like death and the RAM is also erased, but yet something is left behind who has an image of RAM kept safe. The Hard Drive... The Mind! or Universal Mind to be precise.
If you know about the Matter - 'Anti-Matter' phenomenon, you will understand this even more better.
What happens during Nirvikalpa or Sahaja Samadhi (Super Death) can never be explained. Because there is no one left to explain. 'I am' departs.
Whatever you hear from Nisargadatta or any Buddha then is being said by the Mind... or Pure Mind (Buddha Mind)!!! They are like newborn babies... utterly pure... or what I like to call Anti-Nisargadatta, Anti-Ramana.
They can never say that 'We saw' or 'We had' those experiences. Because the Pure Mind never has or had any experience. It just is.
Om Mani Padme Hum.
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2011 : 11:06:10 PM
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Hi Maheswari and Manigma, :)
I'm having a hard time with the idea that all memory is erased. After reflecting on this for a week or so, I must admit that I have never heard of the examples that you've both listed. I've never heard that nirvikalpa samadhi causes permenent memory loss and I have read several writings by practitioners who claim they've experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi but they did not indicate or act like they had lost their memories. The only rational argument that I can think of that might support such a claim is perhaps, after becoming one with the infinte source, one knows everything, therefore memory is redundant and not needed.
I will have to look into this some more. Thanks. :)
Maheswari, I don't buy the "...the self never existed how could it have memory?". statement. If the self never existed, then what is karma if not some form of memory? To me, this statement is so metaphysically high that it is disjoint from physical reality. For me, that is one of the problems of most Advaitist teachings. They start on the top of the mountain and look back down. For those of us still caught up in the play of life at the bottom, it is meaningless... Even the Buddhists claim that we each have an indestructible drop in the center of the heart which carries forward memories and karma.. Are you saying that this indestructible drop never existed? Sounds like Nisargadatta saying "there are no other persons".
:)
TI
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Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jun 25 2011 11:36:26 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2011 : 11:34:48 PM
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Hi,
Time for an update.
I'm all over the place lately with my practices.
I do breath meditation and my body becomes a vaporous cloud of heat and mild ecstatic conductivity. Not just localized in a few areas, but the whole body and beyond it.
I try TM meditation for a few days and focus on the effortlessness and it seems to render my mind into a zombie for the next few days.
For my last two meditations, I've just been doing Sambhavi, tongue on upper back palate and focusing on the third eye. When I do that my body performs the root lock automatically and I experience a continuous wave of ecstatic conductivity which lasts and lasts like the Energizer Bunny.
Now I've gone back to reading "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond" by Ajahn Brahm and I'm stuck on the "Beautiful Breath". Ajahn is saying that the only way to easily still the mind is to produce some feeling that feels good, which is what eventually happens if you can follow the breath continuously for up to 200 cycles. Eventually breathing is supposed to feel really good. This feeling causes the mind to focus and become still. I'm thinking that the ecstatic feelings that are produced during sambhavi may well do the same thing except that it is hard to relax in that state because it feels like there is allot of tension while the sensations are occuring. Perhaps a combination of feelings and letting go will do it? And then, do what?
Oh, I've also been re-reading "The Secrets of Wilder", about the technique of that "i am" meditation to see if it resembles the instructions in the "Deep Meditation" book. While I realize that the tSOW is fiction, it seems that the finer and finer stages of the "i am" was being used to expand inner silence.. However, correct me if I am wrong, but the "i am" in John's case was actually shaktipatted to him by Christi so it seems that that is where the power of the that mantra came from for him.
The thing that I'm interested in is whether or not eventually John Wilder added sambhavi to his meditations.. from what I recall I think he did.. still reading to confirm...
:)
TI |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2011 : 05:11:34 AM
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dear TI
true it is difficult to explain...will try to make as simple as possible
as u said we reflect over it ie we use the mind...whereas the enlightened has no mind...
it is not memeory loss like some sort of disease...it is that every moment is 100 percent new...
i disagree with you because some enlightened persons have very 'weird" behavior...they act in a very weird way...especially that the period after enlightenment one may feel totally unable to do anything cause one is so much Self absorbed...i will give a recent exmaple...look at the life of Echkart Tolle right after his enlightenemnt...at that stage one may choose to drop the body...because the goal is reached what is the use of the body anymore?
or the enlgihtened -with time -might be able to be more in control and lead a normal life
so we observe the enlightened person from our point of view and we think that they behave like they have a memory...but in fact the Self is acting through him...all is spontaneous..
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the self ie the jiva never existed...an analogy would be: the river when reaches the ocean is no longer a river..it looses its individuality....the river existence was a relative truth not an absolute permanent truth...
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what about karma then?
karma also is a relative concept....it is true when one still consider oneself to be the jiva self....but once you realize you are the Self..ie you lost your wrong sense of being a separate entity...then come what may come you dont care cause "you" are not....
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as for Advaitist looking down...a true vedantin will never look down on anybody...Ramana Maharshi for instance would give each devotee according to what the devotee can take...it is a gradual process...
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as for the quote by Nisargadatta ...true there are no other persons...all rivers will become the ocean...gold only IS whether in the form of a bracelet or a ring....
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just take it easy ...dont think about it too much..just keep on enquiring 'who am I"....
.
Love |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2011 : 06:07:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I'm having a hard time with the idea that all memory is erased.
What is memory?
- When you see a friend... you feel happy and exclaim "Hey Man! How you doin? Long time no see" etc.
- When you meet (or remember) a person (friend or foe)... you feel happy or angry.
- When its too cold or too hot for the body... you feel annoyed as the body feels discomfortable.
- When you see a beautiful person (girl or boy)... you say "Wow! so hot, Look at that.." etc..
There are a thousand things in this world that you keep reacting to (non-stop) in your waking and dreaming states. It is your MEMORY that is responsible for all these automatic action/reactions.
Now take a look at this:
Buddha
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3168...531d1b34.jpg
Do you think this man would react like above?
Well obviously its a statue but this statue belongs to a live person.
Look at it... he is a symbol of Sahaja Samadhi! This man is so aware and delighted in its own being that no unaware automatic reaction is possible through him. This man is in a realm beyond cognition... beyond body/memory consciousness.
I am sure that you have not discovered Samadhi (or Inner Silence) yet. Not even Savikalapa Samadhi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savikalpa
The day you taste Samadhi (Inner Silence)... you will understand what Nisargdatta meant by "the very memory will be erased". Not before.
Memory is an extension / subordinate of the Universal Mind. Thus it can also be called Individual Mind (or Ego).
Here are few words by Osho (remember what he calls mind here is actually being referred to Individual Mind or what Nisargadatta has called Memory):
The mind is the creation of the society, not a gift of nature. The first thing the psychology of the buddhas will do is to take away this whole junk that you call mind and leave your brain silent, pure, innocent, the way you were born.
It needs simply to be erased. The moment the mind is erased -- and the method is meditation -- you are left with a body which is absolutely beautiful, you are left with a silent brain with no noise. The moment the brain is freed from the mind, the innocence of the brain becomes aware of a new space which we have called the soul.
Once you have found your soul, you have found your home. You have found your love, you have found your inexhaustible ecstasy, you have found that the whole existence is ready for you to dance, to rejoice, to sing -- to live intensely and die blissfully. These things happen on their own accord.
The mind is the barrier between your brain, your body and your soul. So the first and the most basic thing is, the psychology of the buddhas has evolved methods of meditation which are really nothing but surgical methods so that the mind can be removed -- it is the worst cancerous growth in you. Other than the mind, everything is absolutely beautiful. It is because only the mind is man-manufactured; everything else comes from the eternal sources of life.
~ Osho [Om Mani Padme Hum]
http://www.oshoworld.com/e-books/se...search_title
And here is another:
KNOWING ONESELF AS THE INNER WITNESSING SOUL, OF ONE'S INTELLECT AND ALL ITS DISPOSITIONS, AND ACQUIRING THE DISPOSITION THAT "THAT AM I," GIVING UP THE CLAIM OF 'MINE' OVER ALL THINGS.
GIVING UP FOLLOWING THE SOCIETY, HE GIVES UP FOLLOWING THE BODY ALSO. GIVING UP FOLLOWING THE SCRIPTURES, HE GIVES UP THE ILLUSION OF THE SOUL ALSO.
BEING ROOTED IN HIS OWN SOUL, AND THROUGH TECHNIQUES, THROUGH LISTENING AND THROUGH SELF-EXPERIENCING, THE YOGIN COMES TO KNOW HIMSELF AS THE SOUL OF ALL AND HIS MIND IS ANNIHILATED.
WITHOUT GIVING OPPORTUNITY TO SLEEP, TO SOCIETY'S TALKS, TO SOUND, TOUCH, FORM, TASTE, AND SMELL -- THE OBJECTS OF THE SENSES -- AND TO FORGETFULNESS OF THE SOUL, CONTEMPLATE THE SOUL WITHIN YOU.
~ Adhyatama Upanishad
http://www.balbro.com/heart/beat3.htm
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2011 : 07:33:51 AM
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| beautiful manigma thank you |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2011 : 4:42:49 PM
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"if from moment to moment your mind dwells on what is and drops it effortlessly at once,the mind
becomes no-mind"(Yoga Vasistha) |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2011 : 5:49:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
While I realize that the tSOW is fiction, it seems that the finer and finer stages of the "i am" was being used to expand inner silence.. However, correct me if I am wrong, but the "i am" in John's case was actually shaktipatted to him by Christi so it seems that that is where the power of the that mantra came from for him.
The thing that I'm interested in is whether or not eventually John Wilder added sambhavi to his meditations.. from what I recall I think he did.. still reading to confirm...
Hi TI,
About SOW, IYAM and sambavi, what I recall most from that book is the notion of i am embrace, or what is called in the Key Lessons, "Whole Body Mudra:"
http://www.aypsite.org/212.html
In the book (fiction we must recall) everybody who is doing the practices is discovering whole body mudra. Have you read that lesson lately? How does it resonate with you?
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Edited by - bewell on Jun 26 2011 5:51:27 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2011 : 6:08:53 PM
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Hi Maheswari, :)
Thank you for your responses.
quote:
as for Advaitist looking down...a true vedantin will never look down on anybody...Ramana Maharshi for instance would give each devotee according to what the devotee can take...it is a gradual process...
I should mention, I did not say that advaitists look down on people in the derogatory sense of the word. My example was trying to relay the idea that most advaitists take their initial position from the point of view of being on the mountain top. Or in other words, they say things like "There is no you", "You are already enlightened, it just that you don't realize it", "there is nothing to do and nobody who can do it anyway", "You don't exist so how can You be suffering?" etc.
While these statments may be true in the sense of absolute truth (from the point of view of sitting on the pinnacle or summit), to someone who is at the bottom looking up, the words are perplexing and to some, greatly disturbing. Care should be taken to explain that the statement is coming from an absolute truth point of view, and not a relative truth point of view. It is kind of confusing when the words blend both perspectives in the same sentence.
"Yes officer, there is nobody here so how could anyone have been speeding?"
"If I don't exist, why should I have to pay taxes?"
:)
I should also mention, I have great respect for Ramana Maharshi and his teachings. I've never seen him as an Advaitist, espescially in the contemporary westerner camp sense of the word that has seems to be growing larger more recently...
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
...
i disagree with you because some enlightened persons have very 'weird" behavior...they act in a very weird way...especially that the period after enlightenment one may feel totally unable to do anything cause one is so much Self absorbed...i will give a recent exmaple...look at the life of Echkart Tolle right after his enlightenemnt...at that stage one may choose to drop the body...because the goal is reached what is the use of the body anymore?
Hmmm.. Yes, Tolle did spend a few years after his 'enlightenment' sitting on a park bench, but to my knowledge, he did not permanently lose his memory. Otherwise, how could he, after his enlightenment, recount stories of his early childhood? Also, I do not believe that Tolle permanently lost his mind because he refers to the mind as a tool that is there to be used, but not to be used by it. I have never heard him say that his mind no longer exists.
All is well.
:)
TI |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2011 : 02:16:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
While these statments may be true in the sense of absolute truth (from the point of view of sitting on the pinnacle or summit), to someone who is at the bottom looking up, the words are perplexing and to some, greatly disturbing. Care should be taken to explain that the statement is coming from an absolute truth point of view, and not a relative truth point of view. It is kind of confusing when the words blend both perspectives in the same sentence.
LOL. Even Osho has said that:
That's what Krishnamurti is doing; it has been done by many people. Nagarjuna did it: he said, "Everything is false. The world is false, the ego is false, nothing exists. Because nothing exists you are already free. There is no need for any meditation, there is no need for any Master. There is no need to find out any device, strategy, technique, because in the first place there is no problem. Why go on looking for solutions? Those solutions will create more problems; they are not going to help."
Zen says no effort is needed, nothing has to be done. When nothing has to be done, what is the need of a Master?
And I know this is true, but to talk about this ultimate truth to people who are living in tremendous darkness is futile.
No enlightened person can ever be wrong, but only few enlightened persons have been of help. The majority of enlightened people have been of no help at all, for the simple reason because they never considered the other.
In fact, George Gurdjieff used to say, "Don't consider the other." It was one of his basic teachings: "Don't consider the other. Just say what is absolutely true." But the absolute truth is truth only when experienced; people are living in relative truth.
My approach is different from Krishnamurti's. I know that one day you will come to that point where nothing is needed -- no Master, no teaching, no scripture -- but right now the scripture can be of help, the methods can be of help, and certainly a living Master can be of immense help.
~ Osho [I Am That]
http://www.balbro.com/iam
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
"Yes officer, there is nobody here so how could anyone have been speeding?"
"If I don't exist, why should I have to pay taxes?"
LOL. A realised person would never speed up, he is beyond the thrills that one gets by speeding up.
And if someone says things like that to avoid tickets/taxes, it means he is not a realised but just a fool.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2011 : 12:19:28 PM
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TI,
A slightly different computer analogy for you to consider. Think of memory and mind/ego separately.
Another way to describe it would be to say that the "real you" is directly connected to the bus. The human body has local memory and can only handle limited data off the bus. The mind/ego is like a body "autopilot", exists only in the local memory and tends to just reuse old data for responses. The growth process can be thought of as "you" paying more attention and "shutting down/ignoring" the autopilot. Memory is not erased, but "You" can process directly off the bus in "realtime", which can be overwhelming in the beginning. But If memory is not accessed, the “mind/ego” perceives death, so it works hard to keep the processing in memory... :-)
You mentioned... "I'm thinking that the ecstatic feelings that are produced during sambhavi may well do the same thing except that it is hard to relax in that state because it feels like there is allot of tension while the sensations are occurring."
My guess is that if you are "feeling tension" when you experience the sensations, you are using focused intent to keep them going. Almost forcing it for the energy buzz. Try letting go, more like waves rolling over you. Try not to "hang on" to the feeling. Sometimes it helps to just listen to relaxing music. Don't do anything (no mantra, no SB), just listen...
Peace & Love.
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Edited by - jeff on Jun 27 2011 2:15:48 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2011 : 1:22:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
Hi TI,
About SOW, IYAM and sambavi, what I recall most from that book is the notion of i am embrace, or what is called in the Key Lessons, "Whole Body Mudra:"
http://www.aypsite.org/212.html
In the book (fiction we must recall) everybody who is doing the practices is discovering whole body mudra. Have you read that lesson lately? How does it resonate with you?
Hi Bewell, :)
Thanks for pointing out that lesson. I've just re-read it.
It is very surprising but, I needed to read that lesson, because, that is what I can do now and that is what I'm curious about.
When I do just Sambhavi, I now get a continuous surge of ecstatic conductivity. If I persist, I get waves and pulses from the root going up the body and the energetic/muscular tension increases.
The whole effect intensifies the longer I hold sambhavi to the point where my body starts shaking. It feels quite ecstatic and it also feels like my body is going to explode or dissolve.
But it isn't just 'moving the eyes upward' or 'scrunching the brows' which causes this effect. If I simply feel or put my attention on the area about 1 inch behind the brow and kind of 'suck' inwards, the energetic stimulation occurs. The same effect occurs if I gently inhale through a relaxed face and feel the gentle breeze as it passes by the top of the sinus cavity.
The first time I realized that simply focusing behind the brow caused the root lock to occur automatically, I thought "This is strange". I thought "All I have to do is keep focusing solely on the brow and it controls muscles in the lower body." It really does. I played with this for quite a while. I remember being amazed. Yup, when I focus here, that happens.. That was about three weeks ago. And that lesson (212) confirms it.
So now I am wondering what is going to happen if I do the whole body mudra by just putting my attention on the brow and holding that for longer periods of time.. What is the outcome? Aside from the obvious, that it now seems that I can experience ecstatic conductivity at will, what is the next step? That is what I'm curious about..
The lesson (212) says "That's why we see pictures of the sages with their eyes raised. They are in whole body ecstatic bliss just from that, with divine energy radiating out in all directions."
Is this really divine energy? Feels more like sexual energy, heat, tingles and tension.. it leaves a sunburned feeling on my hands, face, front, sometimes the whole body.
Will the tension in the whole body increase to the point where my whole body is in a mudra? Will I actually quit breathing? - I have wanted to a few times now during one of these sessions. Will the secret breath (inner breath, not sure what to call it) take over if I quit breathing? Will this cause nirvikalpa samadhi?
What is the spiritual significance of such a practice? The idea of radiating divine energy sounds nice, if that is what it is.. Is this the culmination of the ecstatic conductivity experience? Yes, I've read lots about kundalini, about the activation of chakras, siddhis, healing powers. Are these gained by directing the flow of ecstatic conductivity into the chakras, or at someone else's chakras? Most of what I have read about kundalini is that you can't control her. Maybe it is not really true? Perhaps you can control her. How do you explain being able to give shaktipat if you couldn't control her, or at least turn it on and off? Or perhaps you can turn it on and off and direct to flow?
I know that I've read that, according to Yogani, enlightenment is the merging of ecstatic conductivity into inner silence. That is the final step, I'm interested in what happens in between now and then.
I feel like I have found the switch to ecstatic conductivity and somebody has turned the power on.
I would love to read more about what comes after the full body mudra.
Once again, thanks for the link bewell..
:)
TI
(I have written many questions in this post, I'm not expecting you to answer these questions, I'm just kind of throwing them out there.)
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2011 : 03:00:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
When I do just Sambhavi, I now get a continuous surge of ecstatic conductivity. If I persist, I get waves and pulses from the root going up the body and the energetic/muscular tension increases.
Try switching to YMK (Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka or Kevala Kumbhaka) immediately after this happens.
Personally and seriously, I feel you are spiritually raping yourself. And I feel you kind of enjoy it too. Like a scientist opening a rose bud forcefully and analysing how it grows and becomes a Flower.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Will this cause nirvikalpa samadhi?
That was quick.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2011 : 05:18:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
i am embrace, or what is called in the Key Lessons, "Whole Body Mudra:"
http://www.aypsite.org/212.html
I needed to read that lesson, because, that is what I can do now and that is what I'm curious about.
The first time I realized that simply focusing behind the brow caused the root lock to occur automatically, I thought "This is strange". I thought "All I have to do is keep focusing solely on the brow and it controls muscles in the lower body." It really does. I played with this for quite a while. I remember being amazed. Yup, when I focus here, that happens.. That was about three weeks ago. And that lesson (212) confirms it.
TI
What a wonderful exchange this has been! I get a sense of Ah, this is what the AYP support forum is for: supporting one another in reading the lessons and relating that to where we are now in our experiences and practices. I to re-read 212 and found it very beneficial. I too am experiencing full body mudra.
FBM is spontaneous response of the neurobiology to the full range of practices. It is the vibration of IYAM. It is the flowering of SBP. It is enhanced currently in my path, by the introduction of chin pump prior to DM. It leads smoothly into samyama, and into self-inquiry samyama. It lingers throughout the day and night, waxing and waning, but always to some extent there. It is the nexus where pure bliss consciousness meets ecstatic conductivity in a most balanced way.
Peace,
Be |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2011 : 10:40:35 PM
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Hi Manigma,
Previously you quoted Nisargadatta saying:
quote:
With the dropping of the primary experience 'I am',
all experiences will vanish and only the Absolute remains.
When this concept 'I am' departs,
there will be no memory left that 'I was' and 'I had' those experiences,
the very memory will be erased.
~Nisargadatta Gita
http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/The_...tta_E-Books/
You took this quote out of context and then jumped into an attempt to prove that memory is erased after samadhi. Again, I have to disagree with that. While I have heard of people losing their identity and memory due to kundalini blowouts, I have never heard of anyone losing their memory due to any kind of samadhi.
Perhaps what I should have said that I am having a hard time with the idea that all memory is permanently erased. So I concluded that Nisargadatta must have been talking about nirvikalpa samadhi.
But guess what? He wasn't talking about samadhi at all. He was talking about death.
Here is that same sentence you quoted but within the context, and with an explanatory text from Pradeep Apte
link: http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/imag...a%20Gita.pdf
quote:
33. When this concept ‘I am’ departs
there will be no memory left that ‘I was’
and ‘I had’ those experiences, the very
memory will be erased.
The knowledge ‘I am’ is the very seed of memory
and all information functions through it, it forms
the basis of the mind. It is bound to tire out and
hence there is sleep, otherwise you would die if you
didn’t sleep. But sleep is not the complete
departure of the ‘I am’ it’s only held in abeyance
and after sleep it gets refreshed and starts its
activity again maintaining the continuity. No
wonder if your name is called aloud in sleep you
wake up and respond saying ‘that’s me’! Physical
death is the total departure of the ‘I am’ and
nothing is retained. For the ‘Realized One’ who
has transcended the ‘I am’, memory and the ‘I am’
are available to him, he may or may not use them,
they are not ‘lodged’ in him anymore. Only the
‘Realized One’ can understand this state.
Now if you read that part carefully, he is not even saying that the memory is permanently erased! He is saying that "memory and the 'I am' are available to him, he may or may not use them".
So this has nothing to do with samadhi, nirvikalpa or otherwise.
But still, I've heard of many people who were clinically dead and who came back but did not lose their memories. And being clinically dead is very similar to nirvikalpa samadhi.
I know Nisargadatta did not believe in reincarnation.
from "I AM THAT":
quote:
Q: Yet, you must believe in having lived before.
M: The scriptures say so, but I know nothing about it. I know myself as I am; as I appeared or will appear is not within my experience. It is not that I do not remember. In fact there is nothing to remember. Reincarnation implies a reincarnating self. There is no such thing. The bundle of memories and hopes, called the 'I', imagines itself existing everlastingly and creates time to accommodate its false eternity: To be, I need no past or future. All experience is born of imagination; I do not imagine, so no birth or death happens to me. Only those who think themselves born can think themselves re-born. You are accusing me of having been born -- I plead not guilty!
Yet many budhhist doctrines state that reincarnation is a fact along with the indestructible drop in the heart. So this is one more place where Nisargadatta parts ways with conventionally accepted budhhist philosophy (at least in the east).
I have a problem with this next statement of yours:
quote:
I am sure that you have not discovered Samadhi (or Inner Silence) yet. Not even Savikalapa Samadhi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savikalpa
The day you taste Samadhi (Inner Silence)... you will understand what Nisargdatta meant by "the very memory will be erased". Not before.
You can't really be saying that Inner Silence will permanently erase your memory afterwards.. Are you? I think you have lept to inaccurate conclusions and are now propagating them through this forum.
And I have to ask, exactly who are you that you can assess the spiritual accomplishments or lack of in another person? I think you are overstepping your bounds here.. You don't know me at all nor what I have experienced.
In another post to me you say
quote:
Try switching to YMK (Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka or Kevala Kumbhaka) immediately after this happens.
Why would I switch to a different practice at that point? It seems that sambhavi alone is producing the unfolding, the whole body mudra without any effort at all (except focusing on the third eye.)
quote:
Personally and seriously, I feel you are spiritually raping yourself. And I feel you kind of enjoy it too. Like a scientist opening a rose bud forcefully and analysing how it grows and becomes a Flower.
There you go again. Commenting on my intentions and practices. I'm not really interested in your assessment of my practices. I would much rather hear about how you personally are progressing. Have you reached samadhi yet? Have you seen the star or any nimittas? Do you have any ecstatic conductivity flowing yet?
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2011 : 11:44:46 PM
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Hi Jeff, :)
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
TI,
A slightly different computer analogy for you to consider. Think of memory and mind/ego separately.
Another way to describe it would be to say that the "real you" is directly connected to the bus. The human body has local memory and can only handle limited data off the bus. The mind/ego is like a body "autopilot", exists only in the local memory and tends to just reuse old data for responses. The growth process can be thought of as "you" paying more attention and "shutting down/ignoring" the autopilot. Memory is not erased, but "You" can process directly off the bus in "realtime", which can be overwhelming in the beginning. But If memory is not accessed, the “mind/ego” perceives death, so it works hard to keep the processing in memory... :-)
Gee, I didn't that that I needed lessons in meditation with reference to the functions of memory. I'm well aware of the role of memory in meditation, how, if you are remembering something you are not fully present, how the mind stands in the way of stillness or the beyond, how the mind couldn't function without memory (and language and culture). I've also hit a few states where the mind becomes something like a super mind, where the difficult 50 word mantra that I have became a piece of cake, where it glided past efforlessly, the words glowed, there was no effort whatsoever trying to remember the mantra. The superconscious mind has superconscious memory!
And, I have to disagree with you... when you say that "If memory is not accessed, the “mind/ego” perceives death." If memory is not accessed, you are in the present moment, or silent or still. Or you are awestruck by some event. It is easy to shut off the memory. Just do some gazing, or look at a thing of beauty. Or, just bring your attention totally into the now. It kind of makes me wonder though, how a person could do mantra repetition without memory fully functioning.. Perhaps that's why breath meditation is used as there is no effort in remembering to breathe.
On a deeper level though, what about the idea that the play is already written and we are just going through the motions. What about akashic records, where everything is already written down, future included? Something to think about.
And here is a concept that I've learned from Ajahn Brahm (Buddhist monk and Author of "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond"). The idea is that the mind loves to focus on things that bring pleasure. He says that the mind will easily become very still when it perceives something that brings it pleasure (like becoming aware of the beautiful breath, during breath meditation). It is when the mind is not satisfied that it wants to wander.
Which brings me to your next comment..
Ecstatic conductivity is a form of pleasure to the mind! It should help still the mind. It certainly helps focus the mind. :)
quote:
You mentioned... "I'm thinking that the ecstatic feelings that are produced during sambhavi may well do the same thing except that it is hard to relax in that state because it feels like there is allot of tension while the sensations are occurring."
My guess is that if you are "feeling tension" when you experience the sensations, you are using focused intent to keep them going. Almost forcing it for the energy buzz. Try letting go, more like waves rolling over you. Try not to "hang on" to the feeling.
The tension that I am feeling is because the muscles are tightening up and moving on their own. I am not focusing on any intent to keep them going, the only effort is to keep the attention on the third eye and to quit being distracted by the sensations. The muscles tightening up, the ecstatic conductivity flow, the build of energy are all by-products. I know the difference between when I am performing mudras/bandhas and when the body is acting on its own.
It is like finding this little spot behind the brow that you press and the puppet starts to perform.
I've experienced the "waves rolling over you" very many times. I'm more interested in trying to penetrate the light behind the third eye.
However, I think it is good advice not to "hang on" to the feeling because if you are hanging on to the feeling you are not focusing on the third eye.
When I say that there is more tension, I am comparing it the state where I am sitting out in space, a jelly fish of light, with nothing but empty space and the faint twinkle of far away stars. To me, that state has very little tension..
Thanks for your comments.
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jun 29 2011 08:19:41 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2011 : 03:09:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Now if you read that part carefully, he is not even saying that the memory is permanently erased! He is saying that "memory and the 'I am' are available to him, he may or may not use them".
Well that's what Pradeep Apte has said, not Nisargadatta . Nisargadatta's words are clear "the very memory will be erased". I have already explained my understanding (based on my own experience and the words of Nisargadatta) in the above posts.
Its complicated to understand if you have never experienced Samadhi (Inner Silence), but very easy if you have experienced Samdahi even once.
A fish who has always lived inside the ocean can never understand the ocean completely unless it comes out from it.
quote:
I know Nisargadatta did not believe in reincarnation.
Yet many budhhist doctrines state that reincarnation is a fact along with the indestructible drop in the heart. So this is one more place where Nisargadatta parts ways with conventionally accepted budhhist philosophy (at least in the east).
Both Nisargadatta and Buddhists are perfectly correct. Again, you can not understand them through mind. Go beyond.
quote:
And I have to ask, exactly who are you that you can assess the spiritual accomplishments or lack of in another person? I think you are overstepping your bounds here.. You don't know me at all nor what I have experienced.
All I can say is I know you as much as you know yourself.
quote:
Why would I switch to a different practice at that point? It seems that sambhavi alone is producing the unfolding, the whole body mudra without any effort at all (except focusing on the third eye.)
"Is this really divine energy? Feels more like sexual energy, heat, tingles and tension.. it leaves a sunburned feeling on my hands, face, front, sometimes the whole body."
quote:
I'm not really interested in your assessment of my practices. I would much rather hear about how you personally are progressing. Have you reached samadhi yet? Have you seen the star or any nimittas? Do you have any ecstatic conductivity flowing yet?
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=6345
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2011 : 09:15:59 AM
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nice thread manig....and good for you
your posts always clearly show your milestones |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2011 : 10:37:08 AM
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TI,
I wasn't trying to give you a memory lesson. I was basically agreeing with you that "memory is not erased" and trying to modify the analogy that others were using to describe it. A better analogy is to say that everything is an object in RAM. Unlimited global store.
You stated "And, I have to disagree with you... when you say that "If memory is not accessed, the “mind/ego” perceives death." If memory is not accessed, you are in the present moment, or silent or still. Or you are awestruck by some event. It is easy to shut off the memory. Just do some gazing, or look at a thing of beauty. Or, just bring your attention totally into the now. " I agree with you on this point. I was describing the mind/ego perspective in the context of "enlightenment". Context & perception can be different, depending whether you are viewing it from a state of mind/ego or witness/Self.
You raise an interesting question on free will. We each, I am sure, have our own answer. On the "akashic records", it becomes less interesting than you think, since it has all possible outcomes (in all dimensions). How do you know you are picking correctly and not just desiring that answer.
I also agree that the mind pursues "pleasure" and because of it many people find it easier to meditate focusing on the energy. As I am sure you know, the energy flow helps "vibrate loose" obstructions. As the energy has grown, have you noticed an overall drop in desire or anger? Increased sense of peace? Lots of tension can imply that you are "holding on" to the issues/obstructions/emotions.
I have appreciated your posts because I have shared many of the "energetic" feelings, but why the focus on the third eye? Why not the crown? Or full integration of all the chakras?
Peace & Love.
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Edited by - jeff on Jun 29 2011 11:54:02 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2011 : 12:06:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Now if you read that part carefully, he is not even saying that the memory is permanently erased! He is saying that "memory and the 'I am' are available to him, he may or may not use them".
Well that's what Pradeep Apte has said, not Nisargadatta . Nisargadatta's words are clear "the very memory will be erased". I have already explained my understanding (based on my own experience and the words of Nisargadatta) in the above posts.
Hi Manigma,
I think Pradeep Apte interpretted Nisargadatta correctly, as one must do because Nisargadatta will say just about anything depending on his audience and age.
For example, here is evidence that after Nisargadatta's 'enlightenment', he still had a memory.
From "I AM THAT" (In Nisargadatta's own words..) :
quote:
Q: Were you always like this from the first moment of enlightenment?
M: The three states rotate as usual -- there is waking and sleeping and waking again, but they do not happen to me. They just happen. To me nothing ever happens. There is something changeless, motionless, immovable, rocklike, unassailable; a solid mass of pure being-consciousness-bliss. I am never out of it. Nothing can take me out of it, no torture, no calamity.
Q: Yet, you are conscious!
M: Yes and no. There is peace -- deep, immense, unshakeable. Events are registered in memory, but are of no importance. I am hardly aware of them.
Here is another quote from the same book:
quote:
Q: I understand that, according to you, everything is a state of consciousness. The world is full of things -- a grain of sand is a thing, a planet is a thing. How are they related to consciousness?
M: Where consciousness does not reach, matter begins. A thing is a form of being which we have not understood. It does not change -- it is always the same -- it appears to be there on its own -- something strange and alien. Of course it is in the chit, consciousness, but appears to be outside because of its apparent changelessness. The foundation of things is in memory -- without memory there would be no recognition. Creation -- reflection -- rejection: Brahma -- Vishnu -- Shiva: this is the eternal process. All things are governed by it.
Here is more about memory, which Nisargadatta says that he continually erases:
quote:
Q: You cannot be aware, yet unaffected. There is a contradiction in terms. Perception is change. Once you have experienced a sensation, memory will not allow you to return to the former state.
M: Yes, what is added to memory cannot be erased easily. But it can surely be done and, in fact, I am doing it all the time. Like a bird on its wings, I leave no footprints.
Here is another quote, a very intersting one because Nisargadatta says that there is no way to put an end to memory.
quote:
Q: What is the cause of desire and fear?
M: Obviously, the memory of past pains and pleasures. There is no great mystery about it. Conflict arises only when desire and fear refer to the same object.
Q: How to put an end to memory?
M: It is neither necessary, nor possible. realise that all happens in consciousness and you are the root, the source, the foundation of consciousness. The world is but a succession of experiences and you are what makes them conscious, and yet remain beyond all experience. It is like the heat, the flame and the burning wood. The heat maintains the flame, the flame consumes the wood. Without heat there would be neither flame nor fuel. Similarly, without awareness there would be no consciousness, nor life, which transforms matter into a vehicle of consciousness.
more:
quote:
Q: I can make out that the cause of anxiety and fear is memory. What are the means for putting an end to memory?
M: Don’t talk of means, there are no means. What you see as false, dissolves. It is the very nature of illusion to dissolve on investigation. Investigate -- that is all. You cannot destroy the false, for you are creating it all the time. Withdraw from it, ignore it, go beyond, and it will cease to be.
And here is a quote that is saying that even death does not break the continuity of memory:
quote:
Q: I am fully aware that my fear of death is due to apprehension and not knowledge.
M: Human beings die every second, the fear and the agony of dying hangs over the world like a cloud. No wonder you too are afraid. But once you know that the body alone dies and not the continuity of memory and the sense of ‘I am’ reflected in it, you are afraid no longer.
Amazing, sounds like Nisargadatta is presenting a case for reincarnation here: the continuity of memory.. but I have seen no other statements that memory is permanently erased.
quote:
You said
All I can say is I know you as much as you know yourself.
So, I have to ask, if you know me as I know myself, why do you even question whether or not this is "divine energy"? Surely you would know the answer. Why do you ask me questions or pose derogatory remarks at all? Hmm?
Oh, thanks for the link to your experiences back in 2009. Do you have anything more recent?
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2011 : 12:59:30 AM
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Hi Jeff :)
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
You raise an interesting question on free will. We each, I am sure, have our own answer. On the "akashic records", it becomes less interesting than you think, since it has all possible outcomes (in all dimensions). How do you know you are picking correctly and not just desiring that answer.
You know, that is an interesting idea which is expounded in Matrix Energetics/Richard Bartlett. All possible outcomes are occuring simultaneously and if you focus your intent and drop down into the heart space and release it, they say that you can choose a different outcome producing miraculous results. Interesting stuff but really hard for the mind to believe. I read somewhere else where a yogi once said that the heart contains a wishing well that, once you discover it, will grant anything you desire. (Feels like I'm off in fairy land again.. :)
quote:
I have appreciated your posts because I have shared many of the "energetic" feelings, but why the focus on the third eye? Why not the crown? Or full integration of all the chakras?
I find the third eye interesting for a number of reasons: I can see things through it, it feels good, it seems to be a switch that controls parts of the body (or maybe all of the body) and all of the chakras too. I've heard that you can pull each chakra up into the third eye and look at them. I have seen people through the third eye appearing as flames emanating from their midsection, some black and red, others like rainbows. I have driven my car with my eyes closed while looking through the third eye. These 'tricks' were fun at the time but are kind of hard on the mind. The mind keeps pulling you back down saying "you are crazy", "you are deluded and just imagining all this" etc.. And then, how do you find anybody to talk about it with? Also, the third eye is the junction between ida, pingala and the sushumna. If I focus there, suck inwards and pretend to be falling asleep, not only do I get the ecstatic conductivity, visions, lights, energy flows, but you discover that there is a tunnel that goes from the third eye to the heart. If I go too far down in that tunnel towards the heart, it makes me blackout and feel like I'm about to die. I haven't explored that fully yet. Once I did and when I came out I almost threw up and felt like my astral/etheric body was completely dissociated from my physical body. Might have had too much food in my system or I'm still too coarse and blocked..
The crown is interesting, it contains many clear colorful planes, and beings all watching us/me. But it still kind of bothers me and makes me uncomfortable. It is very fast up there, you have to increase your vibrations and speed quite a bit to keep up to the thoughts and images that go whizzing by and it is not that easy to maintain that perspective. The most I do to the crown is to bring the white light down from the star that is up there and sometimes follow the fork up the sushumna to it and back down during spinal breathing. But I don't do that very often ever since doing that once for 1/2 an hour totally zombied me out for about a week and, well I need my brain to work.
And, there is allot of caution about premature crown opening on this site, and I can see why. Sanity is a precious thing when you have to work, make a living and live amongst people.
The heart chakra is quite a magical chakra. It not only can cause distance viewing with great clarity, but it also shines into various planes complete with beings and landscapes.. Just, the heart is a little touchy and can blow out a bunch of hidden emotions out at you if you spend too long with it.. Also, heart orgasms are really intense, but I'm not really looking for more sensuous stimulation for it's own sake. I know, I should probably spend more time on the heart chakra.. :(
I do practice full integration of the chakras with spinal breathing, bhastrika and "AUM NAMA SHIVAYA"'ing the separate sylables into each chakra (except the crown) every now and then. Whenever I "AUM" I can now see a white moon in the third eye about 1 inch behind the brow. I think it is true that if you place your consciousness in a chakra along with projecting some kind of vibration, be it a Bija seed or sound or something that activates the chi stream from the lower tan tien, it will activate them and give you more understanding and control over them.
I probably talk too much. Sorry.. Nice talking to you.
:)
TI |
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