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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 10:11:55 AM
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Hi,
Further to the topics on siddhis and demonstrating them I came across this statement from an e-book on siddhis.
While the scriptures mention a great deal about siddhis and provide adept guidance on the corresponding yoga
sadhanas, they specifically warn against exhibiting the siddhis for popularity and selfish motives. If the sadhaka
does not restrain form such attractions, he is naturally going to be re-trapped in the clutches of ego and avarice and
hence trigger steep decline of his spiritual development. Many such so-called yogis and tantrics are seen these
days, who make extravagant shows of the magic of their elementary siddhis. They might also acquire fame and
monetary gains in return. But, sooner or later, their siddhis are bound to diminish in want of the necessary disciplines
that constantly nurture the growth of the spiritual strength required for the realization of the siddhis.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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patelvipulk
18 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2005 : 07:50:05 AM
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You may like to read the book " The ExtraSensory potentials of mind" from the free Ebooks link tht I posted in another post..
Let me know if you like it..
Vipul.. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2005 : 12:20:08 PM
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Dave,
there's a long thread about his in the archive.
>> Many such so-called yogis and tantrics are seen these
days, who make extravagant shows of the magic of their elementary siddhis.
I believe these people are only ordinary frauds, not at all possessors of magical powers. The reason is simple -- if a person really has magical powers and has a selfish, self-aggrandizing reasons to display them, they will surely go for the Big Time and display them to the world.
It's really very simple. Give me a real, reproducible magical power, and I'll be on world television within a week if I want to. Guaranteed. No need for tuppeny fakir side-shows for impressing gullible passers-by.
It would be very easy for me. Just take up Randi's challenge, show my magical powers in the presence of those who are trained to detect fraud, pick up the $1 million cash prize, and watch the publicity flowing in. Then television around the world within a few days. No problem.
-David
quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
Hi,
Further to the topics on siddhis and demonstrating them I came across this statement from an e-book on siddhis.
While the scriptures mention a great deal about siddhis and provide adept guidance on the corresponding yoga
sadhanas, they specifically warn against exhibiting the siddhis for popularity and selfish motives. If the sadhaka
does not restrain form such attractions, he is naturally going to be re-trapped in the clutches of ego and avarice and
hence trigger steep decline of his spiritual development. Many such so-called yogis and tantrics are seen these
days, who make extravagant shows of the magic of their elementary siddhis. They might also acquire fame and
monetary gains in return. But, sooner or later, their siddhis are bound to diminish in want of the necessary disciplines
that constantly nurture the growth of the spiritual strength required for the realization of the siddhis.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes'
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2005 : 6:44:50 PM
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Dear David,
Yes I am aware of the thread as I posted into it also.My guru has demostrated her siddhis to me regularly in private but she has more that she will not discuss with anyone.It is seen as a distraction to the path to enlightenment and she has no desire to be a sideshow or have lots of money. Money is just a demonstration of ego in many ways which is dissolved during the path. Many famous gurus have been corrupted by the siddhis and have gained bad publicity along the way.Osho was a good example of this and many other 'gurus ' abused their position even though they never had siddhis but a good marketing team and a way with words.I pray to God that I never get into that position.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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rhartman2003
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2005 : 1:10:41 PM
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Hi,
I don't know. Maybe I just read too much of Tolkein, but this whole business of Siddhis just seems silly to me. I want profound and abiding serenity, the clarity to lovingly fulfill my calling in life, and the respect and active support of others as I do so. I want my actions to be of such quality that people naturally respond that way to me, even with my lapses and foibles.
I'd also be sincerely grateful for the grace of forbearance and helpful guidance from others whenever I get off track or fall into off-putting or self-damaging habits.
Demonstrating miraculous powers to individual students seems iffy to me. Even if I had them I'd much prefer to channel that energy into prayer for the improved spiritual condition of other sentient beings or, perhaps more directly, for the development of the human social system as a whole.
I'm going to speak only for myself here. It seems to me that the best validation of a person's spiritual condition comes from the condition of the world she or he inhabits. In that regard, at the moment at least, I don't seem to have much to brag about even if my body could spin summersaults in midair.
The powers that I aspire to involve increasing my effectiveness at ensuring: that all children living now are well nourished in body, mind, and soul; that they grow up to understand why they'll be happiest by having fewer children themselves, indulging less in wasteful consumption and engaging more in helpful action; and that they each have ready access to the tools and resources they need to succeed in providing the same blessings to their children and all other beings with whom they share life.
Those seem like worthy goals to me. The miracles I want to see in my life are more of those things happening--more people turning away from violence and distraction and toward what is real.
Why would I bother to levitate when I can help to elevate the condition of others? In my experience so far, the joy that comes from being of genuine help to someone, even indirectly, and even in my current underdeveloped condition, so far surpasses the thrill of tricks that are too good to be true there is just no comparison. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2005 : 6:37:53 PM
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Robert,
Thankyou for your post.
Full-hearted (and full-minded) agreement!
>> I don't know. Maybe I just read too much of Tolkein, but this whole business of Siddhis just seems silly to me.
Or perhaps you didn't read enough of it -- or perhaps you have not allowed your mind to be softened by enough of the Hobbit's weed? 
>> I'd also be sincerely grateful for the grace of forbearance and helpful guidance from others whenever I get off track or fall into off-putting or self-damaging habits.
On that note, I think there may be something wrong with the whole guru-tradition, and the related siddha tradition, in that it has people pursue an eventual ideal of themselves in which they are so perfect that they do not need to be told they are getting off track....
Gurus who are in this trap are all around us. And let's not be deceived by the 'Oh, I'm no guru, I'm just an ordinary person' line either -- or the similar --- 'The guru/Light is within you (too)' -- many people are simply guru-repudiating gurus.
Guru-repudiating gurus are the flavor-of-the month (actually, the flavor of the last decade). The presence of such a line is no proof that self-deception and delusion has not taken root in the guru's heart/mind. Such people make lip-service to denying their infallibility/uniqueness on the one-hand, while indulge in all the manouvers and manipulations necessary to keep themselves on the pedestal on the other.
>> Demonstrating miraculous powers to individual students seems iffy to me.
Definitely. Why are those students so special? Setting people up for thinking that they are somehow priveleged to be privy to secrets that the rest of the world is not ready for is, well, iffy.
And that one about 'Well I have even greater powers that I am not going to talk about at all'. That's a contradiction. Clearly such people want adulation on the one hand, and, on the other, the status of being pure enough not to want adulation!
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 13 2005 11:00:55 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2005 : 2:22:25 PM
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I'd like to point out that when I wrote that, I wasn't saying of course that a line like ' I'm no guru, I'm just an ordinary person', or 'The guru/Light is within you (too)' is necessarily a deception, or comes from a bad place. I'm just saying that it can be a deception, and does not get the person who says it off the hook for being inflated or narcissistic. It doesn't put them on the hook for that, but it doesn't get them off it either.
It can come from a pure or an impure place. It's just that, whenever anything comes to be seen as a demonstration of a certain state, attitude, or level of purity or wisdom, people adopt that thing in order to make that demonstration to themselves or others without necessarily having acheived the underlying growth that it is supposed to represent.
The veils of Maya are thick. And soft. And lovely. And delicious.
-D
quote:
Gurus who are in this trap are all around us. And let's not be deceived by the 'Oh, I'm no guru, I'm just an ordinary person' line either -- or the similar --- 'The guru/Light is within you (too)' -- many people are simply guru-repudiating gurus.
Guru-repudiating gurus are the flavor-of-the month (actually, the flavor of the last decade). The presence of such a line is no proof that self-deception and delusion has not taken root in the guru's heart/mind. Such people make lip-service to denying their infallibility/uniqueness on the one-hand, while indulge in all the manouvers and manipulations necessary to keep themselves on the pedestal on the other.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2005 : 01:00:36 AM
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I heard if siddhis are your real goal, there are much easier paths which are specifically directed at them. Just if you chant some secret mantra continously you can get some power. Such things are true. Mantras do work. They say everything is manifested from word.
But such powers are temporary if you tend to use them for selfish purposes. For example I heard a story of a guy who can create gold out of nothing but such gold items disappear after few days. So he used to make money by deceiving public.
Once we have those powers it will be very difficult not to put them to selfish use unless we have gained sense control (through good paths like AYP.) Hence such paths are not recommended.
This World is a great gymnasium where we have come to make ourselves strong - Vivekananda |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2005 : 10:47:28 AM
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Much reasonance with all of David's messages here. Just like what I have deep in my mind being said clearly by someone else.
For a good reason, I would like to know if there is any siddhis demonstrated so far, in front of some respectable scientists/ magicians. (I mean siddhis more than stopping your breath for some time, etc.)
I know certain siddhis like levitation, even if they are real, are not of much value for anyone. But demonstrations like that can be helpful for the public-- if handled carefully. The scientific community simply don't accept any "supernatural power" such as clairvoyant, disappear at will, etc. Any successful demonstration before respectable scientists can have a huge positive effect of bringing many skeptics(I don't mean all) into the spiritual realm.
Of course, suppose there is a great Guru with siddhis who did this, then he/she will be condemned of wanting adulation, whether or not he really want it. But both way will call out at least someone(if there are some number of such guys..) with siddhis to demonstrate: if one is really that "pure" in his mind, why bother much about being condemned, as long as the action is good for the world? If he just demonstrate for the scientific community, in stead of doing it over and over again for money, I can't see any evil in it. While if someone with siddhis want adulation, then demonstrating before the scientific community can earn him THE MOST--he can then get fame and money in a much larger scale.
btw, I don't see any fundamental difference from siddhis demonstration and Iyengar's demonstration of very difficult asanas which only a few people in the world could do. The later are meant to be an inspiration rather than an example to follow, right? And Iyengar get fame and money now, right? Why shouldn't a yogi demonstrate siddhis?
Among some others, Swami Rama are quite well-known for his demonstrations, BUT: most of what he demonstrated(e.g. changing brain waves, stopping heart beats for a while) seems to be of more elementary nature, not "supernatural". These are still not shocking enough for the scientific community. For the more "supernatural" things he demonstrated, they tend to be not so convincing considering the procedures, the organizations who run the research, etc. You know, if you are a scientist, but not a very good one, you could get fame by expressing views differ from the tradition and attract public attention-- many people will believe in you, and good scientists seldom have time to attack you before the public. The "bible code", for example, are just a scam anyone good in statistics will know. But certain people just get fame and money from these amazing "theories". Writing something even you youself don't believe for the sake of money and fame is rather common, right? So, I there are enough room for scam. But things are different if you find several very famous scientists suddenly change their mind and accept siddhis---- it never happens.
There are some demonstrations here in China as well. You just have to change the term "yoga" into "Chi gong". But the situation is the same: surely they can hold breath longer, change brainwaves (a sign of changing consciousness) at will, extraordinary muscle strength (this is not quite common for a yogi), etc. But the more "supernatural" feats are never convincing. One more example: many studies of TM are rather convincing, up to the standard of the usual scientific research. Mainly due to their efforts, scientific community now accept that meditation is very good to us. That accounts for its success as a money-making organization. But why they are not able produce a single reliable research/record of successful levitation? I'd heard that there has been some fake photos they created in this regard. Never are there any reliable evidence.
Do you really think siddhis are possible? I don't see any reason to believe them, and I have enough reason to believe such things simply don't exist. Tricks of Magic and coincidences counts for some "real" ones. A trained magician can read your mind, but don't expect too much, of course. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2005 : 2:34:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
Why shouldn't a yogi demonstrate siddhis?
A yogi with real siddhis can really draw people towards spirituality. For example he can enter into the body of president of america and prove that to people that he did it. Or enter the body of any famous celebrity. Such one act would be enough publicity. They can even demonstrate siddhis before scientists. The pre-requisite for such a thing is that ALL people be eligible to see the proof of such a knowledge. Probably as a species we are not yet at such a stage in evolution. Wont we all be working harder at our practices if god gives us just one proof that he exists? Then why doesnt god just appear before us once and give us the proof? There is some karma to be cleared before such a thing can happen. I think this public display of siddhis is similar.
-Near
The reason many people fail in spirituality is that they try but make no attempt - Anonymous |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2005 : 7:01:17 PM
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Dear Alvin,
The siddhas look upon siddhis as a distraction on the path to enlightenment so don't encourage one to look for them.My guru has certainly got the gift of siddhis and has many that I am not aware of and when asked if she can perform a certain task simply says that she cannot even if she can.One of the aims along the path is to dissolve the ego and to demonstrate siddhis only leads to further ego.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2005 : 10:37:44 PM
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Yoga is an unnatural, artificial grafting together of two strands: tantra (which is about occult/powers/energy) and of Hindu/Buddhist mysticism (which is about surrender and realization). The two are highly contradictory, even mutually exclusive. As is true of many unnatural hybrids, they intertwined due to cultural overlaps (in much the same way that many occult practitioners in America use Christian imagery). Yoga masters have twisted in the wind for centuries trying to unify the two strands. Even Patanjali did a really really crappy job of it.
If you believe in powers and all that occult stuff, great. If you don't, great. In the end, it's mere sidetrack if realization is what your soul craves. Tantra's real complicated. Realization's real easy. Surrender. More. More. More. Even more. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Nov 21 2005 10:38:10 PM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2005 : 11:25:40 PM
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Nice thread, David. btw, I am curious to know your yoga practises and how you look at them. I do it because some benefits are real and scientific. I don't believe in things like levitation because of lack of evidence, but I would like to know to what extent yoga practises can offer our body and mind. In fact, I wish I am wrong in my understanding of its limitations!!
nearoanoke, I don't see why certain people are "eligible" to see such demonstration and some are not. The same applies to God or similar supernatural phenominon. I simply don't accept the notion of God with an independent consciousness, will, etc. (though in some subtler notions, I can go easily with it) Are you saying that some people are more superior? So, could you draw at least a reasonable guess at what disaster may occur if the public see siddhis? (other than the obvious good things like sudden advance of science; large amount of money going to charity if the yogi is nice enough, etc.) I would not believe in those convenient excuses for those "Guru". Many people already believed that they saw some real siddhis (although I don't think so), so what are the effects if they see something "really real"?
btw, a yogi who demonstrate can remain anonymous (just as yogani) if he prefers not to have fame. The point is just to demonstrate for the scientific community up to standard, not on the television shows! So what kind of distraction would be there? If one demonstrated already their siddhis to their students, why not just add a number of scientists and magicians to their lists?
Notice that many yogis DO WANT people to believe in the siddhis (and sometimes THEIR own siddhis), as oppose to the excuse we may find for them. This is clear from their writings. Though very few would say siddhis is the main focus, many yogi spend much words in an attempt to convince you the siddhis are real. Some even wrote a whole book about that, describing examples, their own experience, etc. What's the difference than, if they just demonstrate it directly instead of writing so much?
I don't personally meet anyone with real siddhis up to standard. Or I should say, I came up with someone (or some "secret" organizations) who claimed they have something supernatural. But after some thoughts on it they can all be explained naturally. There are some techniques for all these "supernatural phenomenon" to work(though I don't mean to be strict on the sorting):
1.
Real phenomenon, wrong interpretation e.g. Kirlian photo of your aura, walking on hot objects (the second one is more controversial)
techniques: as the phenomenon is real, you just have to make sure there isn't anyone who is "scientific enough" and have the time to challenge your interpretation.
2.
tricks like Magic, e.g. floating in the air, disappearing in a second, drinking boiling oil, doing surgery and open his disciples stomach without knifes,........
techniques: Don't make it look like magic, and don't be too serious in your demonstration. Do it as if it was spontaneous. Don't do tricks that are demonstrated by someone else on the Television.
3.
Programming predictable behaviour on their subjects
Techniques: I have to admit that I am too far inferior to them on these tricks. I don't know enough psychology to descibe the precise mechanism. But I was born in a peculiar Christian Church with some phenomenon they claimed to be a miracle. I have also experienced Sahaja yoga, as I described in another thread. Well, of course they are not really miracle. But if you are in the church, you will not usually challenge it because of various reasons. It's not so easy to come up with such phenomenon-- some luck and tradition are certainly needed for its success. And usually the leaders of these organization are convinced themselves that these are really miracles......
Certainly 1 and 2 above cover most tricks. Many times my friend or my mom told me something extraordinary--but I get disappointed everytime. Many people have seen "miracles", but miracles, so far as I know, only lives in people's mind.
There are indeed some "real" feats. I've seen enough of the Qi Gong demonstration in China. At least part of them are real. They are mainly something like hardening of muscles, e.g. breaking bricks or stone with hands or body, allowing the audience to punch into his body, with-standing heat, walking on fire. Sorry, no levitation....... Some real "supernatural" demonstrations were claimed to have done before the political leaders of China, but I have to check for their credibility. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 11:04:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
Dear Alvin,
The siddhas look upon siddhis as a distraction on the path to enlightenment so don't encourage one to look for them.My guru has certainly got the gift of siddhis and has many that I am not aware of and when asked if she can perform a certain task simply says that she cannot even if she can.One of the aims along the path is to dissolve the ego and to demonstrate siddhis only leads to further ego.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes'
Dave,
on the forum you tell us very often that Siddhis are a distraction, but you also tell us very often that your guru has these siddhis. Why is this?
It seems that it is important that we should not seek the siddhis, but important that we should know that your guru has found them....
It seems to me that it is important to your guru that you believe that your guru has the siddhis. (If this were not important to your guru, your guru, if wise, knowing the obvious distracting power of such things, would have kept well away from the subject.)
Why is it important to your guru that you believe that your guru has the siddhis?
You tell us that your guru has these extraordinary powers, powers that ordinary people don't have, powers which could easily produce certain fame and a guaranteed ear from the world if wielded appropriately...
Since there are millions of people who say that their gurus have such powers, (Sai Baba alone has millions of followers) but no-one is stepping up to the plate and proving these powers in the obvious way, and most of these claimants are obviously (and proven) frauds, why should we believe you?
Why should we believe that your guru has the siddhis?
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 22 2005 11:05:38 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 11:26:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
Nice thread, David. btw, I am curious to know your yoga practises and how you look at them. .... but I would like to know to what extent yoga practises can offer our body and mind. In fact, I wish I am wrong in my understanding of its limitations!!
Alvin,
time considerations make it impossible for me to answer for a week or so but I'd be happy to answer your question -- feel free to remind next week if I don't get to it.
-D |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 12:50:29 PM
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Dear David,
There is no reason to believe my guru has siddhis, to be honest I don't care if you believe me or not.You seem to be preoccupied with siddhis and finding proof.Just as experiences are not signs of levels, then neither are siddhis.Just as yogani states you will get siddhis on the path.I liken it to walking to your garden gate from your door.If you walk straight there you will get there quicker.If you stop to smell the flowers(siddhis) it will take you longer.If you simply walk to the gate you will smell the flowers as you pass.
Actually it is not important to my guru that I know she has siddhis and she is reluctant to talk about them.With respect if you believe the yogis should exploit the siddhis then you do not seem to understand what the aim of enlightenment really is.Yoga means 'union'as in union with God and money is not important to my guru on her path.
I can say with confidence that if yogani has been using these practises for 30 yrs then he himself will have some siddhis even if they are considered minor ones or not.When I read his mails I can feel his gentle balanced energies.Is this a siddhi? Who cares?I can overhaul anothers chakras from long distance. Is this a siddhi? Who cares? Many can send 'healing' energies anywhere in the world.Is this a siddhi? Who cares? Who actually cares if they exist? Only one's ego cares.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 1:56:54 PM
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Hello Dave,
>> With respect if you believe the yogis should exploit the siddhis then you do not seem to understand what the aim of enlightenment really is.
I think you have made an unspoken assumption here, which I believe to be mistaken -- you assume (by use of the word 'exploit') that the use or demonstration of the siddhis in question is for selfish or self-aggrandizing motives.
What I am driving at, and Alvin too, is that there are very good, non-self-aggrandizing motives to demonstrate the siddhis reliably -- though possibly, any motive to demonstrate them unreliably is probably self-aggrandizing, because there is probably fraud involved when people 'demonstrate' them in unreliable circumstances but refuse to demonstrate them in reliable ones.... By reliable versus unreliable here I mean in a way that is convincing to informed skeptical scrutiny...
With full respect to you and your guru, you don't seem to object to merely communicating that one has the siddhis.... After all, in one way or another, your guru has communicated (whether true or not) that she has the siddhis, and you are continuing that process by telling us that she has them...
The most reliable means of communicating that one has the siddhis is doing it under scientific scrutiny, the least reliable means is merely passing the information on...
So merely communicating (whether true or not) that one has the siddhis does not seem to be marked by you as necessarily bad or self-aggrandizing, provided that the means of communicating is, ironically, the least reliable and convincing of the lot --- namely, merely telling people about it, or cultivating the impression that one has them (while at the same time cultivating an impression of a reluctance to do so).
I wonder why you or your guru telling people that you/they have the siddhis is somehow better and less self-aggrandizing than you or your guru demonstrating, convincingly, reliably that you/they have them?
I see the most reliable means of communicating one's possession of the siddhi powers to be the least likely to have insidious self-aggrandizing motives, and the least reliable means to be the most likely to have some form of dishonesty or self-aggrandisement involved....
Buried deeper in the assumption that a realized being with siddhi powers would not demonstrate them reliably, and provably to the world, ('because that would be self-aggrandizing'), is the assumption that the possession of these powers is grand. I don't think they would be grand at all to an enlightened being. Good news, yes. Scientifically important, yes. But a proof of their grandness, no. An enlightened person knows that they are not grand. They know that they don't own the powers. They know that their possession of these is only apparent and not any proof of their specialness.
In an enlightened being, the territoriality is over. The self-importance is over. The self-grandness is over. Their 'image' is over -- to them. The entire drama of self and other is over.
By the way, I have no issues with the refinement of the nervous system, and the general improvement of skill as a result. This certainly happens. I have experienced it myself. But siddhis, miracle powers? And Yogani does not claim them, by the way...
>> Who cares? Who actually cares if they exist? Only one's ego cares.
We all care, truly. You would not tell us that your guru had the siddhis if you did not care. On the question of fact, you are merely convinced already. I care to enquire and, when I see fit, to challenge, becaue I think that is the best way for the truth to come out.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 22 2005 5:44:05 PM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 8:33:05 PM
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>>nearoanoke, I don't see why certain people are "eligible" to see such demonstration and some are not.
Alvin,
I am just making a guess as to why siddhis have never been openly demonstrated to the whole world (or a wider audience) till now. To know the real reason, we need to ask somebody enlightened :)
Ofcourse I will be the first person ready for such an open demonstration.
Near
The reason many people fail in spirituality is that they try but make no attempt - Anonymous |
Edited by - nearoanoke on Nov 22 2005 9:58:43 PM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 8:42:49 PM
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By the way, I know a close friend of mine (whom I trust) who is a very good student of Vethathiri maharshi (famous sage in india). He told me that his guru openly stopped a running train before his students and then started it again. He also told his students that he has to suffer something because of this open display but he did it to make them believe that siddhis do exist.
The reason many people fail in spirituality is that they try but make no attempt - Anonymous |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2005 : 11:25:35 PM
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Great thread guys,
I have wondered about this topic as well and one angle not mentioned so far is that proof of God or powers etc. would spoil the journey for some who are not ready to find out yet.
To elaborate, one view I have of life in this world is that it is play ground or a journey of discovery for the soul. In other words, some souls might come back to explore any number of things, what it's like to live a virtuous life or what it is like to beg, steal or have 10 children with 6 wives. Some may want to learn why becoming attached to material experiences ultimately lead to suffering etc. By offering these souls information about their true nature or the true nature of the universe, may prevent them from being able to go through their life experiences sequentially and to find out about it for themselves. I think of it like reading the ending of a great novel before the beginning or middle. Putting something like siddhis or proof of God in someone's face could spoil the great time they are having at this "earth party"!
One thing I have learned intimately is that giving someone else their truth or your version of it, robs them of their right to live and discover it for themselves.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2005 : 10:37:34 AM
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I still couldn't see the difference of claiming to have and actually showing siddhis, unless someone told you something but don't want you to believe. Maybe that's a girl falling in love would do when she says "no", but probably not a great guru.
Allow me to digress a bit. Let's start from something closer to our experience and still somehow related to siddhis. I would like to collect all kinds of esoteric (or once esoteric) practises/phenomenon which have a objective supporting evidences. Objective as opposed to those phenomenon which a few or a group of people claim it but appears to be only subjective. i.e. they cannot show it to the others, cannot provide a clear instructions for the majority to experience it, etc. Fortune-telling are, for example, not something which can be objectively analyzed. It fasinated a great no. of people while it is for most part just a scam which actually fails to be more accurate than any good guess. To convince som of my friends here, I have done a little bit of statistical analysis on the more "clearly stated" statements on one of the most famous fortune-teller here in Hong Kong---excuse me, those clearly stated ones only. Those predictions which are not properly stated are what these guys rely on, to have at least some successful guess to advertise on. You probably could guess what I want to say. But the methodology is more important: try to pick every precise predictions at the beginning and check the proportion which has come true. They never did that, right? Because in the long run their predictions are not better than any reasonable guess by layman-- except that they have much better ornamentations, of course. We only remember and talk about what has come true.
The boundary of subjective and objective are not strict, though. Let's look at events which are somehow objective, not necessarily to the standard of science. For example, if anyone knows a reliable accounts of demonstration to some not-too-unreliable independent organizations, please tell us. But it's clear enough that we would like to skip something like "I know someone who can heal over a distance", etc. I don't have any opinion on these subjective opinion, but I think objective reports are more helpful for an objective discussion to go on , and more inspiring as well because we can leave the "if you believe, fine. If you don't believe, also fine" situation. Remember, truth doesn't usually depends on whether we believe it or not. ("truth" here refer mainly to "truth" in a cognitive sense, not artistic truth /ethical truth. Whether there is someone who CAN demonstrate siddhis at will, is a pure cognitive question; whether siddhis is good or not is a bit closer to an ethical one.) If you don't believe in siddhis, fine. If you don't believe in the law of gravity, also fine-- But you will still die when you jump from the 70th floor to the ground. While everytime I hear some "fortune-tellers"(including many layman who copied what the "great ones" said) telling me not to do something, I force him/her to state the results clearly to avoid their stupid tricks, and then simply do what they ask me not to do to convince him/her that the result is wrong. It is usually we ourselves who create those results because we believe in them too deeply. We create something in our own mind, sometimes even supernatural phenomenon. Even great scientists like Isaac Newton fell into this kind of trap. That's why we ask for objective accounts.
Let's see how many objective things we can come up with. Frankly speaking, I don't expect much response to this invitation because there simply aren't much reliable accounts out there!! I cannot come up with much too, here are two:
1.research on the benefits of meditations, mainly TM. Not all are reliable, but enough reliable ones.
2. Stephen LaBerge¡¦s research and demonstration on Lucid Dreaming, something which was not taken seriously by scientists some time ago.
I should indeed include some links or references for them, but these two are too famous that you can find them out easily, right? I hope I can add some experiements conducted in Hong Kong/China later on, when I have time to collect and examine the sources. References should certainly be provided for less well-known research......
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2005 : 5:54:40 PM
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Dear david,
Yogani does not claim he has siddhis I guess because he knows they are a distraction and has said as much on here.My guru has not openly demonstrated siddhis as a way of convincing me , but as a way to help others who were ill.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2005 : 09:49:31 AM
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Let me add some more examples of what I consider some lesser known (or lesser noticed) ability of our body.
1. Although we couldn't regenerate a new leg when we lose one(while some animals like some spiders, centipede can), the bone and muscles grows at an incredible rate when they tried to recover from injury, much faster than when we simply exercise them.
2. Some of our organs do regenerate. e.g. if a surgeon removes over half of the liver, the remaining tissue will grow back to around 70% of its original size.
3. If a kidney is removed because of an organ donation, the remaining one will grow as much as 50% in the following week.
Obviously our body do have a huge potential. It simply doesn't want to do things at these scales unless we are in trouble. The ability comes only when we are at great risk/having some serious injuries.
As I don't see any evidences for "higher" siddhis, I would be quite satisfied if any esoteric practises can produce changes of our body at the above level. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2005 : 3:53:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
Let me add some more examples of what I consider some lesser known (or lesser noticed) ability of our body.
Forgot one. At least two forumites have the ability to wiggle each ear independently.
Om. |
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Siddhis
