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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 21 2005 : 08:57:32 AM
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I am wondering lately what might be the worst-case scenario for someone who does most or all sitting practices but continues with an ordinary type of relationship without incorporating tantric principles.
I mean objectively I don't see a chance to develop a relationship with someone interested in yoga. Does anyone know what are the consequences of excluding tantric practice in the long run |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2005 : 10:45:22 AM
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Hello Lili,
having a 'tantric lover' is only an ideal, and when it is met, great, there is some good opportunity there to add something good to your practice and your life. When it is not, there are still many other ways to practice, and to live.
There is no specific problem with tantra-related seated meditation practices (and/or self-administered sexual activity) in a setting in which the only partner(s) have no tantric or yogic practice. As regards the relationship(s), they will proceed or not on their own value.
Regarding yoga-attuned partners, there are so many factors in what brings two people together, that you'll find a lot of people on this board and elsewhere who are very much into yoga but their partners are not. And those relationships are either "good or bad or mediochre" on their own merits.
Another thing to keep in mind, on the bright side, if you awaken in tantra or spirituality, that can give you a lot to bring to a relationship even if the partner is not openly, directly, or consciously receptive to your sadhana.
I never had a tantric lover.  But I've always had a very worthwhile sadhana. 
Blessings,
-David
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2005 : 11:47:03 AM
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Hi David!
I agree with everything you say. I was thinking more along the lines of possible energy loss and how this affects your progress in yoga (or the quality of the relationship - kidding  )
Do you think that energy loss can neutralize to an extent the effects of the practice?
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2005 : 12:40:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
Do you think that energy loss can neutralize to an extent the effects of the practice?
Hi Lili,
what do you mean by energy loss? There are no cringing puritans  here --- do you mean the energy loss of orgasm?
If you are talking about that, you can take some delight in your the gender of your body --- as far as I know women don't have to limit their orgasms at all to preserve their sexual energy.  They can have lots of them.  Or if there is energy loss for them, it's very small. I'll ask Yogani if I am on the ball here -- after I check the lessons. Maybe it's even in the lessons --- I haven't read the tantra section enough --- but I have come across that concept before in other tantra writings. If anyone sees it in the lessons, reply.
The big loss for men occurs through the ejaculation. If they have the multiple (ordinary, ejaculatory) orgasms  they lose the energy ---  
So the situation could be more of an issue for men, but then only if the partner wants him to have more orgasms (which a tantrically-practicing man typically will want to avoid), as opposed to say, simply more sex (which a tantric man can often provide). But the word around town anyway is that women rarely object to a tantrically-trained man.
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 21 2005 1:14:33 PM |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2005 : 1:52:50 PM
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But the word around town anyway is that women rarely object to a tantrically-trained man.
-David
hehe this is so funny. I just read recently that women also can lose a lot of energy and this is why I decided to post the topic here but you seem to be convinced this is not the case. Thanks for the uplifting response.
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2005 : 3:29:35 PM
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| It has been my experience that women do lose some energy but that it is not lasting. they seem to bounce right back as opposed to men who need to recharge more. It also isn't too difficult for a woman to hold back on orgasm if she chooses to as most women take a little more stimulation than men to climax. I really haven't noticed women having the same energetic charge/discharge cycle that men do. Women are more energetically cyclical with thier lunar cycle so the main thing is to do your regular sitting practice and be sensitive to your own inner energy needs and also try to find balance and sensitivity with your partner rather than feeling the need to control his sexual patterns beyond what he deisres. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2005 : 7:01:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
I just read recently that women also can lose a lot of energy and this is why I decided to post the topic here but you seem to be convinced this is not the case. Thanks for the uplifting response.
Hello Lili,
agreement with Victor. Consensus here is that women will not typically lose a lot of energy. See also Yogani's lesson
http://aypsite.org/t7.html :
" There is some loss of prana in feminine orgasm,
and some loss of ability to climb to successively higher levels of
divine ecstasy as a woman has multiple orgasms in tantric sex.
Clearly, feminine orgasm is much less of a pranic drain than
masculine orgasm is. "
To put it in perspective, objective in life is not necessarily to always keep 'sexual energy store' as high as possible at all times, any more than it is to keep any kind of energy as high as possible at all times (when we do any exercise, we lose energy store for example, and we still know exercise is good), and the effect of loss only remains until the store is replenished, which can be a very short time for a woman.
By the way, the amount of 'loss of prana' for a man is very individual-dependent, and time for replenishment seems to take longer as men get older.
My own personal opinion: female loss of 'prana' during orgasm is never a big deal.
Above all, experiment and see what the situation is for you.
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 21 2005 7:06:30 PM |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2005 : 08:49:12 AM
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| Cool thanks for the posts both to you and Victor |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2005 : 4:05:57 PM
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Hi,
What about males? What is a safe frequency to have orgasm? Once in a week or once in two weeks? I remember yogani telling me in a mail as more than once in 1-2 weeks can eat up your yoga. So I thought of doing it not more than once in two weeks.
Does the frequency need to be reduced to even less as we make progress? Like say once per month or 6 months?
God might not always give you what you WANT, but he will always give you what you NEED |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2005 : 9:10:02 PM
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Hi Near,
If you check Tantra Lesson #46, you'll find a pretty detailed answer by Yogani on this very topic.
In regards to the second part of your question, I am sure Yogani's guidelines are applicable at least until the time that your own awareness of the flow of prana in your body and how it is affected by orgasm, dictates your decision making for how often works for you.
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2005 : 10:32:21 PM
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I really htink it is a personal thing. Depends on your practice, your relationship etc.
Personally I am usually once every two to three wekks, but sometimes I have two or so at that time. When i was married, it was a bit more frequent, maybe once a week. I find that I would liek to go for longer cycles but my fantasies and feeling of being sexually 'full" seem to take over at some point and then the little head convinced the big head that it is really alright and will be no harm. i generally wait till the voice of the little head is good and loud before I heed it, but thats just me. |
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Adam West
23 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2005 : 12:12:37 AM
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For me, I can just get away with the tolerable effects of once a month. More than once a month, now and then, I can tolerate, unpleasantly so; but consistently more, is intolerable... Once in the looner cycle is often sited as a maximum amount of tolerable loss within the Tibetan Tantric literature also and others. :-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
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Adam West
23 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2005 : 12:29:30 AM
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Oh in regards to women... some have suggested orgasm for women have an activating affect on the kundalini. This maybe so, as my partner clearly states (and this is prior to her exposure to any esoteric knowledge what so ever) that she feels a massive energetic spike straight up the spine from the root to the crown, profoundly ecstatic with every orgasm. This in my interpretation is clearly a kundalini spike and may have an awakening affect on the charkas and neurology. Yet she is tired and sleeps after, but that may be neurological (brain chemistry, effects of serotonin and dopamine etc. and the refractory period) and not energetic loss, I suspect it is both. It is true from my perspective, that the general consensus is that women loose some energy, not problematic amounts unless one is having several a day (my observations may suggest one a day is problematic, as the loss may out way the stimulating/activating affects).
In the literature, it is considered that a womens time of loss is during menstruation, which is commensurate with a mans ejaculation. Also, there is profound loss due to child bearing, which is said to have the same effects as long term consistent ejaculations of a man, my empirical observations seem to bear this out also :-)
In kind regards,
Adam.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2005 : 2:15:41 PM
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Hi Near,
another thing to keep in mind is that it varies person to person. Some men are just blessed with having less energy loss (and-or less time-to-recovery) than others.
The other thing is that as we get older, the time-to-recovery tends to get longer for all of us.
-D |
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sauravu
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2005 : 6:23:41 PM
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| As far as I know from hindu folklore that an average women has eight times the sexual energy than man . It is logical considering that they are the primary bearers of human race. But it seems that they needlarger stimulus to activate them as we men with smaller energy can do it more quickly . There fore I regard women discharge the same or more amount of energy per orgasm as men only they have more of it and take longer to discharge . Remember this whole universe is a veritable creation out of a metaphorical womb. |
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znanna
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2005 : 6:21:58 PM
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Hi, I suppose this is a good a place to jump in as any :)
"Sitting practices" ... this pretty much describes me. I meditate an hour or two a day, and have several friends who I commune with, psychically, as well as a couple of working groups of "mages" and, of course HEr.
One lesson I learned the very hard way was that (at least for me) to attempt to contain or save energy was worse than futile - shakti wants to FLOW, and the more SHe does, the greater the power, limitless beyond comprehension.
Maybe I'm coming from an odd place, don't know. No guru or traditional initiations, I just tune in and receive understanding in action. Some have called what I do "white tantra" which, from what I read subsequently, seems appropo. I've been mostly celibate for around 20 years, fwiw, if that makes a difference.
To me, orgasm only energizes further ... it is balance which allows it to continue to flow and ripple :)
Love,
ZN
PS Thank you for hosting such a lovely board
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2005 : 11:52:34 PM
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Hello ZN:
Thanks much for chiming in here.
Yes, once the energy is moving it is about flow and balance, which is where sitting practices have a certain advantage -- a daily habit that can work steadily toward promoting the spiritual dimensions of awakened sexual energy (which we also call here, ecstatic conductivity).
Can you share further on the methods you use? As you may have noticed already, we have a lot of tools for this in AYP. But we can always use new perspectives!
The guru is in you.
Yogani |
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znanna
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2005 : 2:57:18 PM
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Thank you very much for the welcome :)
Usually, I find a comfortable position I can maintain for an extended period of time without moving. (If I am planning a more intensive working, I will use a pose with some innate stress associated with it - the small pain of the tension helps me to focus better, somehow.) While I know little of formal/traditional use of mudras, I have found that the Flow is directed differently depending on hand positions, and, similar to floating in water, I use these "mudras" to alter my balance or the direction of the energy, which is useful if I find myself faltering.
My usual routine is to start with the base chakra and work up, one by one, opening and "tuning" each of the chakras. This feels like an orgasmic roar of thunder, to me, or sort of like sticking one's finger in a live electrical socket. Once I've reached Ajna, I pause and synchronize/harmonize them, and *reach* out for Sahasrara, and pull the brightness down which meets the flow moving higher, and sort of twist these two flows together into a coil. At this point, the energy is moving both directions at the same time, and I will move into a circular breathing pattern. Then, I work my way down, one by one, charging each chakra with the opposite polarity, back to the base. This takes me about 15 minutes, all in.
The next step, for me, is, um, adding dimension ... front and back, if you will, to the up and down. Again, one by one, starting from the base, I work my way up, but this time the flow is front/back, back/front, twirling spherically. (I apologize if my descriptions are crude, but this is how it feels to me.) This takes another 5-10 minutes.
What comes next depends on the work/lesson at hand. I've found it very helpful to use the brute power of the lower chakras to help to further stimulate the higher ones ... particularly Ajna, which was hellish at first for me to open in a relaxed (non fearful) manner. I sort of move energy from one (or several) chakras to another.
So, depending on what my goal is, I may choose to relax and "float", or work with some of my psychic partners, or do somewhat of a self-shamanic healing ...
I do not chant, or focus on any particular imagery ... I just feel the flows, like the currents of a stream.
Love,
ZN
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znanna
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2005 : 5:07:44 PM
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A small further comment on my meditation routine ...
I'd like to note that, *now* it takes about 15 minutes up, and 10 or so down. When I first started this, in its current form, it was a great accomplishment to be able to Flow from one chakra to another, and *that* was after I survived the first time I fired them all up together ... then, with practice, I found the twisted notion to work them in combination ...
The basic notion still is that of dancing the musical scale of resonance, which was my end result as a core process, as reflected in my comments above.
And, practice is so fun, I've gotten good at it :D
Love,
ZN
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2005 : 12:57:39 PM
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Hi ZN:
Thanks much for the additional detail. Very interesting. It goes to show that there are many ways to skin the "energy cat" while keeping in balance, and living to tell about it.
The fact that you are coming down as much as going up in your practice is most likely the key to your balance. This is similar to the use of spinal breathing in AYP, though we avoid the crown until much later -- using the third eye instead. Your spiraling approach is fascinating, and is consistent with the swirling of energies that occurs as the ida and pingala nerve channels are awakened in conjunction with the spinal nerve (sushumna).
Is there a particular part of your routine that you would say is involved in the cultivation of inner stillness (our unbounded, unshakable inner witness), or do you see this as happening throughout your routine? This gets to a central question that arises when considering all chakra/energy-based paths.
In AYP we view the cultivation of ecstatic energy and the cultivation of inner silence to be the two essential poles of enlightenment. This is analogous to setting up for the shakti and shiva union, which leads to the inner rebirthing process and outflow of vast quantities of divine love through our nervous system. Unlimited outflow of divine love into the world is the final stage of all that we are doing in yoga.
So, you can see why I ask about the cultivation of inner silence.
To tie back into the subject of this topic, it is certainly possible to accomplish full ecstatic awakening using sitting practices alone, such as those in AYP, or other methods like those ZN has been so kind to share. The purpose of the tantra lessons in AYP is to provide additional means for those who are sexually active, to whatever degree. In this way, our normal sexual activity can become a periodic aid to spiritual development, rather than be a drag on it. Tantric sexual practices are not a replacement for sitting practices, of course. And neither are sitting practices related to the cultivation of ecstatic energies alone a replacement for methods such as deep meditation and samyama, which are for the cultivation and expansion of inner silence.
I keep bringing up the inner silence component of yoga because it is easy for any of us to forget about it in the face of the huge energy shows we are capable of stimulating within ourselves. So this question about inner silence is not pointed only at you, ZN. It is a reminder to all of us who are inclined to "trip the light fantastic."
It is the blending of these two qualities within us (silence and ecstasy) that will bring us home.
The guru is in you.
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znanna
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2005 : 8:30:17 PM
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Hi ZN:
*Hi there. I appreciate your comments, yogani :)
The fact that you are coming down as much as going up in your practice is most likely the key to your balance.
*Yep. To me, working polarities up and down/reversing polarities in and out and arriving at the point where there is a multiplicity of and no direction of flow... *is* balance. However, I found that to resist the sway of the snake is NOT balance - it is the dance which manifests the rhythem.
This is similar to the use of spinal breathing in AYP, though we avoid the crown until much later -- using the third eye instead. Your spiraling approach is fascinating, and is consistent with the swirling of energies that occurs as the ida and pingala nerve channels are awakened in conjunction with the spinal nerve (sushumna).
*Most of my practice is using the third eye, lately. I receive, um, communion with HEr through the crown, and, to me, this is the Ultimate balancing point.
Is there a particular part of your routine that you would say is involved in the cultivation of inner stillness (our unbounded, unshakable inner witness), or do you see this as happening throughout your routine? This gets to a central question that arises when considering all chakra/energy-based paths.
*I never considered this really as a 'goal', more as an outcome? To me "cultivation" and "stillness" seem somewhat of an oxymoron. In direct answer, if you would call "inner stillness" BLISS, well, yes. No time, no space, everything in a point yet expanded into infinity ... this would be a sorry description, but the best simple description I can come up with at the moment.
*It comes for me, when I have the opportunity to spend an entire afternoon in meditation, with no distraction. I'll go, say, 45 minutes and then a 15 minute break .. then another 45 etc... for hours sometimes. It's really great, but, for me, requires a rare day where I can afford to play, all by myself :)
*The corollary to this, by the way, is the activated side, where the obviation of time/space/physical/whatever allows for the more shamanistic practices of moving between, um, quantum vectors?
In AYP we view the cultivation of ecstatic energy and the cultivation of inner silence to be the two essential poles of enlightenment.
*I don't like to think in terms of enlightenment, but I entirely agree that balancing the polarities is the crux of the issue :)
This is analogous to setting up for the shakti and shiva union, which leads to the inner rebirthing process and outflow of vast quantities of divine love through our nervous system. Unlimited outflow of divine love into the world is the final stage of all that we are doing in yoga.
*Ah. I have had the good fortune to enTwine with another, telepathically. There is no Shiva without Shakti, he told me :D It is much easier to make quantum leaps working tantric as an additional balance, no question.
*"I'm other you"
So, you can see why I ask about the cultivation of inner silence.
*To me, silence Flows, it is more like the creek which runs than the flower in the garden.
To tie back into the subject of this topic, it is certainly possible to accomplish full ecstatic awakening using sitting practices alone, such as those in AYP, or other methods like those ZN has been so kind to share.
*Yep, I'm an object lesson, for better or worse!
The purpose of the tantra lessons in AYP is to provide additional means for those who are sexually active, to whatever degree. In this way, our normal sexual activity can become a periodic aid to spiritual development, rather than be a drag on it. Tantric sexual practices are not a replacement for sitting practices, of course. And neither are sitting practices related to the cultivation of ecstatic energies alone a replacement for methods such as deep meditation and samyama, which are for the cultivation and expansion of inner silence.
*The way I see it is that the analogy would be the tantric/kundalini equivalent of the "afterglow" of physical sex, but I don't consider myself enlightened, so take it for what it's worth :)
*Also, for me, my sitting practices *are* tantric practices.
I keep bringing up the inner silence component of yoga because it is easy for any of us to forget about it in the face of the huge energy shows we are capable of stimulating within ourselves. So this question about inner silence is not pointed only at you, ZN. It is a reminder to all of us who are inclined to "trip the light fantastic."
*I'm a lush, I admit it freely!
It is the blending of these two qualities within us (silence and ecstasy) that will bring us home.
The guru is in you.
*Except when SHe kicks you in the back ...
Love,
ZN
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2005 : 09:26:23 AM
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Hi ZN:
Yes, sitting practices are certainly tantra also -- a more refined kind, which is actually the heart of tantra. It is called "Sri Vidya," which means "glorious knowledge" -- knowledge of the inner union of our divine polarities.
If inner silence comes with your practice, who can argue? Presumably it is found in your daily activity as well. That is the test of any yoga practice -- an abiding blissful stillness that elevates the quality of our life. Enlightenment or not, it is quality of life we are all after, yes? And that overflows to others, which is the real fruit -- that infectious bubbling love that can change the world.
So do carry on. There is nothing better to be a lush for than advanced yoga practices.
The guru is in you.
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znanna
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2005 : 9:35:46 PM
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Hi, again. I thank you again for your generousity in conversation, yogani.
Sri Vidya. I did a search on this (the net is so wonderful, as a construct and tool!) and found this link:
http://www.meaus.com/What_is_Sri_Vidya%3F.html
Very interesting, and yes, I would say that this describes fairly well my experiences and thoughts. I can't say if that's what you had in mind, as this is the first I've heard of the term, but it is consistent with the way I have tried to describe the unspeakable in the past.
I just do stuff :) I am not a very disciplined person. (Obvious!)
But, back to where I chimed in here ... what I'm trying to say, is that, to me, the physical sex side of tantra is just an analog for the *real* tantra, which is the, um, result of the physical without the physical ... the mental (?) communion .. which is the enTwining of the polarities represented in action by shiva/shakti.
It is I think much easier done than discussed, really.
(And, practice is sooo much fun.)
Love,
ZN
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2005 : 10:43:38 PM
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Hi again ZN:
That is some article on Sri Vidya you found. Quite scholarly... Your own description of what is happening inside is much better.
Here is a much shorter (and hopefully easy to understand) discussion on Sri Vidya from the AYP tantra lessons:
http://www.aypsite.org/T25.html
...and also several colored versions of the Sri Yantra diagram, which is discussed in the lesson:
http://www.aypsite.org/sriyantra.html
Here is a blank one for anyone who would like to color their own!
http://www.aypsite.org/sriyantra-blank.html
(click right on it to print it)
Those who have either of the AYP books will notice that the "imprint" (logo) of AYP Publishing is a rainbow colored Sri Yantra. This is a portrait of the human spiritual anatomy from the inside. I think its descriptive relevance will increase in the years to come.
Having a basic familiarity with Sri Vidya and the Sri Yantra can be useful for understanding our inner dimensions and processes in relation to the cosmos, presuming we have the bhakti, practices and inner experiences that directly manifest within us what the wisdom of Sri Vidya and Sri Yantra describe -- human spiritual transformation.
This is why we say that tantra is about much more than sex. It is about getting divinely irradiated and transformed from the inside. 
The guru is in you.
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znanna
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2005 : 04:42:08 AM
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Hi again :)
Sri Yantra, yes ... the "physical" depiction of HEr. The pattern is what the movement of the Flow feels like to me. I use it somewhat like a sort of meditational sigil.
A friend of mine from Bangalore sent me a beautiful version which I use as wallpaper on this computer. If there is a means to post it, I would be happy to share it with y'all.
Love, ZN
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2005 : 07:55:10 AM
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Hi ZN:
You can upload the image to the "files" section of the old Yahoo AYP forum here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AYPforum/
Just put the link to it here and anyone can download it.
The guru is in you.
PS -- You can also put it in the "photos" section where it can be viewed online, but there may be less resolution in a download from there. |
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What happens if you only do sitting practices.
