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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 2:58:49 PM
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Hi Yogibear,
Don't know why you threw in that post on the Teodicé problem, but I don't feel I have any issues with that one at the moment. Evil does not exist. Only unawareness.
And thank you for stressing the quote from Adyashanti that I wrote here . ( ) Yes, Louis, it's a great one! Read the book if you haven't! Have you read it, Yogibear?
Totally agree that having an adequete conceptual map is a huge help for the mind on the way! But there's a limit to that. That's why it became so increadibly funny when the map given in Yogani's self-inquiry book was realized to be a map to the extinction of the self-mind, describing the five stages, and my mind first got so increadibly happy for a MAP that could make it find those higher places faster and 'win the race'... until it realized it means... it's running for its own extinction! 
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Edited by - emc on Mar 04 2008 02:24:08 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 4:33:40 PM
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Hi emc,
quote:
emc wrote:
Don't know why you threw in that post on the Teodicé problem, but I don't feel I have any issues with that one at the moment. Evil does not exist. Only unawareness.
Maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at. I wasn't implying that you had any issues with this. It is just what came to mind when I read it. 
quote:
emc wrote:
Totally agree that having an adequete conceptual map is a huge help for the mind on the way! But there's a limit to that. That's why it became so increadibly funny when the map given in Yogani's self-inquiry book was realized to be a map to the extinction of the self-mind, describing the five stages, and my mind first got so increadibly happy for a MAP that could make it find those higher places faster and 'win the race'... until it realized it means... it's running for its own extinction!
Yes. The short circuiting of oneself, the scorpion stinging itself with its tail.
The mind made self, deriving its identity from the dead past and its fulfillment from the imaginary future.
It also makes me think of something else Adyashanti said and that is that there is an 'exhaustion of the seeker'.
The concept of AMness is new to me and beyond me. At this point, I can see a transformation of myself but not an extinction of myself.
Yogani provides a much needed map that makes clear the evolution of oneself. Has anybody else explained it in a similar way? I am not aware if they have. I know I will get a lot of mileage out of this book.
I haven't read Adyashanti's book but read your thread and liked the quote especially. A subtle point.
More to come.
Best, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Mar 04 2008 07:07:18 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 04 2008 : 06:04:24 AM
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It's all fear, yogibear. We all experience this. The same fear that I had encountered when I posted my realization experience within another thread and an AYP Mod brought this to my attention. So I decided to post it here as a sort of rationalization for myself and it wasn't necessary so I deleted it. And the reverse needs to be true, just like the process of the elimination of thought, so it was perfect, and there was a reason.
There comes a point where we need to be straightforward and this is true love. Right? A parent never enjoys correcting a child nor appreciates it when a child says, "I hate you!", but it is necessary. And sometimes this is the outcome and sometimes not. But it's perfect eliminating fear on both ends of the stick when we drive right through it. Since the parent also eliminates the fear of losing the child's standing in his/her eyes. And more often then not resentment turns into love, later, when the child is older and is thankful for firm instruction. But usually there is the storm before the calm.
With that said, there comes a time where action is vital, when we just have to dip our toes in the water. No map, no advice, no more questions. This one can tell you that it's cold. This one, wet. This one, this. This one that. But it is useless and we just need to jump in. Take a leap of faith! See the reason for my previous post. Why this is especially relevant. Even more so, now. Wake up: LOLOL
So this is how it is in life also and is a good lesson for all parties, including myself, who is the same as you and welcome this same straightforwardness, since we always respect the ones who are true. This is real love.
Sometimes it's beneficial to beat around the bush, sometimes we need to beat the bush to drive out vermon, with vermon, so the first becomes the last:  LOLOLOL
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Mar 04 2008 06:51:21 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 04 2008 : 09:05:16 AM
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Hi emc,
From the book Self Inquiry by Yogani:
"This kind of self-inquiry can lead to much trouble
in life – an attitude of meaninglessness and a loss of
motivation to engage in living. The very act of
affirming non-duality (unmanifest Oneness) and the
non-existence of duality (Oneness plus diversity) can
lead to a sense of hopelessness if one is not
experiencing at least a smidgen of the thing itself, the
witness.”
From the book Self Inquiry by Yogani:
“There is a misunderstanding that has been
perpetuated by some teachers – the premise that
becoming That is the only thing of importance and
nothing here on earth matters at all.”
This happened to me. I was missing a few pieces of the puzzle in my paradigm and as a result, I was in this state.
A lot of the mistakes people can make that Yogani mentions in Self Inquiry I have made.
It is too bad Yogani hadn’t written this book 30 years ago. It would have saved me a lot of trouble. But ‘everything happens perfectly’ and ‘everything happens for the best’ and ‘direct experience is the best teacher’. But this book Self Inquiry is having a similar effect on me that Emptiness Dancing had on you.
It is hard to explain how things have been in the last year but enough things have integrated in my internal and external life that I have stabilized at a higher level of understanding. It is one of those serendipitous synchronicity things.
This has always been my raison d'etre since having the experience of higher consciousness at age 18, growth. When I had this experience, when I came back to normal consciousness or awareness of the world, I felt I was not alone in the room (don't know if I was hallucinating or not ). I asked a question, kind of similar to scottfitgerald, "Now what?" And the answer came back immediately, "Now you have to do it while living in the world." That was it.
But I had alot of impurities/ignorance to deal with that swept me away from meditiation practice. And I did alot of thinking during that time about the nature of that experience and myself and what is true and what is not true. Jeepers, I guess you would call it soul searching. Or perhaps non relational self inquiry.
I used to think I was alone in my understanding. At one point I realized that I was the same as everybody else, just that I had another level operating that they didn't have but could and will have one day. I was awake, relatively speaking and ‘they’ were not. For them, daily life and worldly goals were everything and for me it was not. In fact, I thought it all was stupid. I was critical of it and had a rejection of it operating in my mind at one level. Even tho I participated, I didn’t embrace life fully. Not healthy. I had been living in a funk.
It is different now and this is what I am getting at.
But it took about this long (30 years) for it all to come together in my mind and for my understanding to integrate at a new level. I am a more backward student and slow learner, I guess. I started to have this hankering to learn Khechari which led me to AYP. I felt the urge to meditate again as I would recall the pleasure of sitting in silence. I realized that the most important thing was meditation.
Selection of importances.
It is very funny how so many things have fallen into place over the last year. It is like I have 'hit my stride' again. But that experience of higher consciousness a while back stirred up a bunch of gook.
It is like the story Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told about how the first time you walk thru a herd of sleeping elephants you make it to the other side with out disturbing them and you see what is there. But the next time you do it, you step on a twig and the whole herd wakes up and now it is not so easy anymore.
My yoga teacher and I, the last time we were together before I left to go to college, we were at a friend of his and were having some dinner. He drank 3 beers and ate meat. He did this for me. The message I got was go and live life get some experience. Loosen up a little. At the time I was introverted and rigid with a lot of false fixed ideas about life. I had never seen him behave like this before. This, of course, shocked the heck out of me. He told me to go and mix with the 'worldly people' for a few years.
So I did but a little too well.
It reminds of the story of the yogi whose teacher told him to go into the woods and take nothing with him and perform a particular practice for a particular length of time and then come back. Well, he took a loin cloth with him and went into the forest as his teacher had told him to do. But as he sat in meditation a mouse started to gnaw at the loose thread of the cloth so he got a cat to keep the mouse away but the cat needed milk so he got a cow but he needed someone to milk the cow so he found a milk maid but, as it goes, one thing leads to another and before you know it he had two kids so he had to build a house and clear land and raise crops to feed everybody. And on and on.
His teacher happened by one day, recognized his disciple and cried in dismay, "look what has happened to you. I told you to go into the forest and take nothing with you and now you are trapped by and burdened with responsibility. How can you practice now? So the yogi renounced the worldy life, went again deeper into the forest and this time followed his teacher's instruction exactly.
OK, not exactly me, but it is a good story that sort of applies.
From the book Self Inquiry by Yogani:
“Is dispassion a state of indifference, a state of
uncaring? Does it mean we do not act or react in the
world? It does not mean that. It is just the opposite.
Much of spiritual development is paradoxical, with less
becoming much more.”
From "Light on the Path':
"1. Kill out ambition.
"2. Kill out desire for life.
"3. Kill out desire for comfort.
"4. Work as those work who are ambitious. Respect life as those who desire it. Be happy as those are who live for happiness."
quote:
emc wrote:
Yes, that is how it is perceived from the mind. That's where stress, pain and discomfort comes from. The belief it's for real. I also fall into that trap often!
So I am getting back around to my point. And my point is, that daily life is now extremely real and I embrace it and take it very seriously. But I don't at the same time.
What I mean is that there has been a general loosening up, an unraveling, an easing up in my mind and increased engagement in daily living at the same time.
As we were talking about books comfirming our own direct experience of life, the great thing is that the conclusions that I have arrived at have so much agreement with AYP. A whole lot. Simple, direct and efficient. When I read AYP, I think, "that is what brought me success 30 years ago. That is what I was doing. That is what is the most important. Spinal breathing, meditation and self inquiry." With a few supplementary things and some minor differences. So AYP is a confirmation that I was on the right track back then and that I have found it again.
It also gets me to look at things from a different angle that actually gives me more understanding of what I have read and studied and experienced up to this point. Yogani often says the same thing in a different way which is helpful to me. Sometimes it is different and I have to think about it and see if my thinking has been mistaken about a particular thing up to this point.
So comparing, contrasting and combining what I have already with what AYP has to offer is perfect for me and producing good results. I’m sure it is the same for a lot of people here. I don't have any earth shattering experiences, just more freedom in myself and my environment. Which is fine with me.
Krishnamurti is reputed to have said at one gathering, “Do you want to know my secret? It is that I don’t mind what happens.” That was his whole lecture. He then got up and left a whole stadium full of people. Don’t know if it is true story but you get my point. It is something like that.
From the book Self Inquiry by Yogani:
“The methods can vary widely, from prescribing
complete conscious engagement (mindfulness) in the
minutest details of life, to letting go of life altogether.
Whatever the teaching may be, it will always reflect the
experience of the particular teacher who is transmitting
the knowledge. There will be a bias, and the teaching
may or may not resonate with all students who come to
study that approach. When a student does not get it, it is
usually regarded to be the shortcoming of the student,
not the teaching itself, which is often held as
immutable.”
What I see is a reconciliation of these two approaches and the combining of them in my point of view.
Emc wrote:
The last thing the mind wants to do is to let go of CONTROL and TRUST LIFE, trust that life happens FOR you without you having to do anything. Life lives itself effortlessly, but we think we have to live it with effort as long as we are in our separated little self.
Effortless effort. Like a bird flying across the sky. Maybe it is what Adyashanti is referring to by Emptiness Dancing.
The nature of a bird is to fly, a dog to wag its tail, and a cat to purr.
From the book Self Inquiry by Yogani:
Everyone has different inclinations and tendencies
about how to live their life. This is also true in spiritual
matters. Each of us has our path already built into our
own nature. All we must do is tread it. Easier said than
done….It is up to us to honor our nature and where we
happen to be on our path, and proceed accordingly.
From commentary on 'Light on the Path', third chapter entitled ‘Spiritual Consciousness’ in the book Advanced Course in Yogi Philosophy by Yogi Ramacharaka:
“Our only hope is that reliance and trust in the Unseen Hand which prompted Newman to write those beautiful words, which appeal to thousands far removed from him in interpretation of the Truth, but who are, nevertheless, his brothers in the Spirit, and who therefore recognize his words:
‘Lead, kindly light, amid the encircling gloom,
Lead thou me on.
The night is dark and I am far from home;
Lead thou me on.
Keep thou my feet; I do not ask to see
The distant scene; one step enough for me,
Lead thou me on.’
In due time there comes—and it always comes in due time—a little gleam of light piercing through the clouds, lighting up to the feet of the storm-beaten wanderer—one step at a time—a new path, upon which he takes a few steps. He soon finds himself in a new country.
The light pouring forth from the Spiritual Consciousness, leads the traveler along the Path of Attainment—if he has the courage to follow it. The light of the Spirit is always a safe guide, but very few of us have the confidence and trust which will allow us to accept it….Its rays may be perceived by all who are ready for it, and who look with hope and confidence to the day when their eyes may view it. For know you, that this inner light is not the special property of the Orientals—far from it. The men of the East have paid more attention to the subject than have those of the West but this Illlumination is the common property of the race, and is before each and every man and woman.”
Phew! OK. Long post, but that is what came to mind when I read your post.
Best, yb.
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 08:16:25 AM
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Hi VIL,
quote:
VIL wrote;
It's all fear, yogibear.
I am not quite sure I understand. Can you explain a little more exactly what you mean? Do you think I am afraid of something? Moi?
quote:
VIL wrote:
The same fear that I had encountered when I posted my realization experience within another thread and an AYP Mod brought this to my attention. So I decided to post it here as a sort of rationalization for myself and it wasn't necessary so I deleted it.
Would you give me the link? I would like to read it.
Regarding your interpretation of the Gospel as being a symbolic representation of the witness, I never thought of it that way up to this point. I always took it literally, i.e.,that there were two angels in the cave, that Christ’s encore appearances to various people were real, etc.
It is another way of looking at it.
Best, yb.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 11:13:44 AM
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My initial reaction to this thread caused such an aversion that it colored my dream state, in which I was at a merchant's shop who was attempting to unload diseased phallus's, (that at first appeared beautiful to the untrained eye), begging that I take some with me. In a sort of nauseating daze produced by my great love for the Merchant I grabbed two, but dropped them at the door, realizing the impossibility of bringing a lazy mind enamored with false humility to the true self. And I thought to myself, 'Does the merchant of the shop know that I would never be enamored with things of no value?':
VIL |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 3:12:51 PM
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Hahaha, Yogibear! That was truly a long and lovely post. I managed to get through it, but I know many wont have that patience, so if you want more audience, perhaps consider shorten your posts...
quote:
It is like the story Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told about how the first time you walk thru a herd of sleeping elephants you make it to the other side with out disturbing them and you see what is there. But the next time you do it, you step on a twig and the whole herd wakes up and now it is not so easy anymore.
LOL! This was the best quote ever! It reminds me of a wise word I received one day: When you think you've found the key to drop into the Now you'll be so happy and stay present for a while, then fall out of it. Then when you try to use that key again, it won't work! The thing is... you'll have to look for a new key continuously! |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 3:13:22 PM
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Hi VIL,
You lost me VIL. Can you clarify that last post a little for me?
Thanks , yb.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 4:04:35 PM
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Hey, yogibear. In other words, be the elephant... then it won't matter if you tip toe back... Or be the master key and it won't matter which lock you use to open doors: LOLOLOL But only in stages and degrees.
As per my previous post, kind of like using one rodent to drive out another. Sometimes it's necessary:
Take care:
VIL
Btw, I did enjoy your experiences and humility, which is the true self.
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Edited by - VIL on Mar 05 2008 4:13:18 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 4:53:19 PM
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Hi emc,
Glad you enjoyed it. I will try to keep it to a minimum in the future.
Maharishi really nailed it with that story. I like the elephant analogy a lot, too. A pretty apt description of why achieving and maintaining higher states can be a tad more difficult than other endeavours.
quote:
emc wrote:
When you think you've found the key to drop into the Now you'll be so happy and stay present for a while, then fall out of it. Then when you try to use that key again, it won't work! The thing is... you'll have to look for a new key continuously!
Same idea.
Best, yb. |
Edited by - yogibear on Mar 05 2008 5:17:33 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 7:42:34 PM
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Hi VIL,
quote:
VIL wrote:
Hey, yogibear. In other words, be the elephant... then it won't matter if you tip toe back... Or be the master key and it won't matter which lock you use to open doors: LOLOLOL But only in stages and degrees.
I get it.
quote:
VIL wrote:
Btw, I did enjoy your experiences and humility
It is just a small experience in the greater scheme of things. But it is interesting and instructive all the same. I don't consider myself to be humble. But thank you.
Best, yb.
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2008 : 09:02:40 AM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Christi wrote:
Postmodern relativism is the idea that everyone’s view of the world is real and equally valid because it is real for them. Postmodern relativism seeks to be inclusory, but only on the level of the mind (everyone’s mental concepts/ viewpoints are given equal validity). Yoga is inclusory on the level of reality (beyond the mind and mental creations). Everyone’s mental concepts are denied validity in terms of being ultimate truth, but everyone is given validity as a being of Divine Light, and a part of ultimate Truth, and invited to participate in the single thing that is really happening (awakeness).
Thank you for this explanation. I guess I am familiar with it. Post modern relativism is, in fact, a basic tenet of Scientology. ‘What is true for you is what is true. Think for your self.’ They don’t, right away, add the caveat, ‘as long as it is what Scientology teaches’, but they get around to it eventually.
quote:
Christi wrote:
quote:
________________________________________
“yb wrote:
The development of these habits from unconscious incompetence thru conscious incompetence to conscious competence is the pre-witness, witness and discrimination stages and the complete establishment to unconscious competence is the state of dispassion.”
________________________________________
I agree. Nisargadatta used to say that in the awakened state his life went on quite automatically without him being aware of it. What you could call unconscious competence.
I don’t know if that is quite the meaning I intended to convey. I was referring more to the idea that the habit of letting go, non resistance, or acceptance becomes so pervasive in the mental and neurological circuitry that it becomes as automatic as my present unconscious competence with holding on, resisting and rejecting ( I am a master at this, but I am starting to get a little sloppy and lackadaisical with it).
So, not that life goes on with out being aware of it but letting go goes on with out being aware of it.
On a neurological level, what I see is that we are developing this one habit or circuit in the brain that becomes like the unstoppable monster created by the mad scientist. Except, that, while this would be true for a dominant, automatic habit such as smoking which would be a curse, the habit of letting go into the silence is instead, for the meditator, a blessing.
From Self Inquiry by Yogani:
"Dispassion – Rise of the condition of no judgment
and no attachment. The process of self-inquiry
becoming automatic to the point of all objects and
self-inquiry itself being constantly dissolved in the
witness."
quote:
Christi wrote:
I have not read anything yet by Elizabeth Haich, but it is interesting to see that she describes things in a very similar way to the way I describe them. Maybe we are all one?
Yes, and I perceive that Yogani and she almost always validate each other, but with their own particular flavor. What one writes often helps me to understand what the other is saying.
quote:
Christi wrote:
Yogani pointed out in a recent thread that any level of realization will not last long if it is not supported by a corresponding transformation on the neurobiological level. I believe that it is the rising of the kundalini to the crown, and the stabilizing of it there that is necessary for the witness consciousness to become a stable and naturally abiding state (the stage of dispassion).
And when the dynamics of the kundalini expand outwards from the head, to encompass the heart, then the expansion into unity consciousness as a permanent reality becomes possible:
Yogani wrote (in the addition to lesson 108):
"The experience of the union of inner silence/Shiva and ecstasy/Shakti is ecstatic bliss, with the focal point of it in the head. When this joining expands from the head down into the heart area, the experience becomes one of outpouring divine love. This is why enlightened sages are an endless source of love and compassion. Their hearts are in a constant state of melting due to the divine union going on continuously inside. This corresponds with the highest stage of enlightenment, where all is seen and profoundly loved as an integral part of Self. At this level of functioning in the human nervous system, there is the divine power to aid healing and spiritual transformation in everyone near and far.”
At the peak of the experience I have written of previously, after the golden light flew up my spine I found myself to be in a completely concentrated condition which I described before, a little sun, a little nucleus of spiritual energy, no longer dissipated, totally concentrated, this happened:
My concentration was rock solid on my heart. I could feel it as plainly as you can feel your fist right now if you tense and relax it repetitively. Four fists acting in concert actually. What happened then was that I started to leave my brain, and I realized I was in my throat. That was a little disconcerting having spent my entire life in my brain up to that point, except for one other time. Immediately I was back up in my brain. This happened 2-3x. It was spontaneous, not of my volition. Then I thought, 'OK, this is what the instruction said, ‘concentrate on your Self in your heart. Transfer you consciousness from your head to your heart’. This must be what is happening. All right, this time I am going to let it happen.” So I traveled back down into my chest cavity, but when I touched my heart, I split in two immediately, and half of me went down to my genitals (which became filled with hot liquid feeling but without arousal) and half of me went back up to my brain. Then I came out of it, back to normal.
I attribute this bouncing off my heart to impurities. But really I don’t know why it happened this way. I don’t know why there was an impenetrable wall there or why I split in two when I touched it.
quote:
Christi wrote:
Yogani says in the Self-inquiry book that at some stage, the “I Am” becomes “Am”, because the “I” as a separate reference point dissolves.
Nisargadatta said a similar thing. When speaking to one of his students he said:
”People exist in your world only, they do not exist in mine.”
So maybe you will not always be “you”. This is another sign (nimitta) by which the absolute state (or Self) can be easily recognized... other people (as personalities) simply no longer exist.
From the book Raja Yoga by Yesudian and Haich:
"The radiant OVERSELF is within us and is waiting until we--like so many others before us--have struggled through--until all the thoughts that rise up to hold us back have finally been stilled. Even today thinking is the Biblical serpent. It leads astray from the path we wish to follow....
The divine Overconsciousness is the perfect CONDITION OF AWARENESS. In comparison with divine consciousness, our personal life is only a kind of sleep, and the earthly experiences of our consciousnesss are nothing but dreams!
Union with the divine SELF the perfect condition of awareness, is likewise a state of perfect happiness. The individual ceases to be a creature and becomes the creator himself....
The term 'Nirvana' is completely misunderstood by those who confuse it with annihilation. There is no appropriate expression for it, but we come near to its meaning when we call it "BECOMING ALL'. Those who would enter here must drop every last thought that binds them to the created world-- even the thought of and the feeling of 'I'. For the SELF is life, the Word, the Logos, and although it is one with the Father, it is the creative principle--the Essence--which constantly takes upon itself the law of birth and death. Whoever would be completely free must give up the last concrete idea, the personal consciousness of self. The SELF is the first thought that is born as an individual which becomes conscious and the last thought that accompanies him to the gate: 'I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,'(Rev. 1;8) says the Logos in the Bible. 'I AM the beginning, the middle and the end of all,' says the Logos in the Bhagavad Gita. But even this consciousness of Self must be dropped. The gate is open; the consciousness drops completely into the Father, melts away into HIM --into THE ABSOLUTE, THE ETERNAL.
This condition cannot be described; it can only be experienced. Indian Yogis call it 'Nirvikalpa Samadhi', while Christian mystics refer to it as 'holy extasy' or 'unio mystica'. The names may differ, but the experience is the same."
I will just be happy with achieving the state of dispassion for now. AMness is beyond me (pun intended ).
quote:
Christi wrote:
I don’t think you should compare me with Yogani or Nisargadatta. They are Great Masters, whereas I am just a student of yoga, with a tendency to overanalyze.
You sound like me, but further along.
That is fine. But where you are in your experience of life is my present goal. You are farther along. I want to be in a more or less constant higher state or at least frequent state of higher consciousness (OK, who doesn’t?). I am happy for you.
quote:
Christi wrote:
As you, I have had awakening experiences, glimpses of truth, enough to know there is something real, which is of a higher order, or magnitude of existence. And some of that joy, and peace, and silence is filtering into my life for which I am extremely grateful.
No need to explain why.
quote:
Christi wrote:
I experience what is called sahaja samadhi (spontaneously arising samadhi) quite often these days (usually several times a day outside of meditation). I guess sahaja samadhi is what Yogani refers to as the dispassion stage, as there is no choosing between what is real and what is not, just a simple resting in the joy of the present moment (the joy of being. It is what Haich calls “an intensified and sublime state” in your quote from her above. I experience ecstasy and bliss most of the time now. I also usually experience equanimity, peace and a kind of euphoria, or benediction. When my heart chakra is open, which is quite often, I experience unconditional love of the heart (love which arises spontaneously without any object or cause).
I am so happy for you.
quote:
Christi wrote:
But I am beginning to see that there is another kind of love, which is based in unity consciousness (beyond the witness). Nisargadatta explains it here:
“ I am itself is God. The seeking itself is God. In seeking you discover you are neither the body nor the mind, and the love of the self in you is for the self in all. The two are one. The consciousness in you and the consciousness in me, apparently two, really one, seek unity and that is love.” (From: I am That p67)
This seems to be the love that Jesus knew and taught. Loving another not just because your heart is open, but also because your self is their self. It brings a whole new light to the only commandment Jesus gave:
“Love your neighbour as yourself...”
From the book Raja Yoga by Yesudian and Haich:
"In the Bible Jesus teaches us two paths: the path of the SELF: ‘I am the way, the truth and the life.’ (John 14; 6). This the inner, individual way—Yoga--the way of the Orient. And the second: ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.’ (Leviticus 19; 18). This is the outward, community path—the way of the Occident. Our life becomes perfect only when we fulfil both of these teachings of Christ. Each of the two paths includes the other, but only when we reach the end of the path we are following, which ever one it is. The one path achieves unity from outside inward, the other from within outward. If we follow both paths, we reach perfection—the point where the paths meet—much more quickly…..
Yoga leads man into universal unity. Man’s mind is filled with an all--inclusive, all--comprehending, all-forgiving universal love. Those initiated yoga love their neighbours truly as themselves because they feel themselves one with each and all. They do not need to fear that they will offend someone or sin against someone; they are living reality of the principle of doing unto others as they would have others do unto them; for they feel others as they feel themselves. For them there are no ‘personal pronouns’ anymore, because the feel that the SELF fills all with life—in you—in them—I am living—I AM!
Thus thru Yoga man attains the sacred community. He passes from the personal, little human SELF to the divine OVERSELF, to perfection; and merged into God, he experiences the unity that animates mankind. Only people who have reached perfection on the individual path can practice the sacred community based on brotherly love—the holy community which exists to manifest the divine plane with its heavenly harmony here on the earthly level. Thus the two paths, individual and collective, are welded together onto one. Neither is complete in itself; each is the complement, the fulfilment of the other."
Best, yb. |
Edited by - yogibear on Mar 06 2008 7:45:28 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2008 : 08:38:33 AM
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Hi VIL,
quote:
VIL wrote:
Anyway, this same phenomenon happened within another thread that I mentioned concerning a realization experience in which I was coming down on Adyashanti's concepts. I was drawn to them and didn't know why, but decided to state why I disagreed.
I can be a tad on the skeptical side, too.
I mentioned before that my friend said that I should read Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. I thought, ‘who is this Eckhart Tolle guy? Eckhart Tolle? What kind of a name is that? What can he know? I saw a picture of him and thought, ‘hmm, Alfred Neumann from Mad Magazine has become enlightened.’ Pretty rude and disrespectful, right?
It took several months of repeated suggestions on my friends part before I took some action. But I read the book and really got a lot out of it. In fact, he helped me to understand Krishnamurti a lot better, because, to me, they speak in a somewhat similar fashion and truth but Tolle is more understandable to me.
But maybe the reason I like him a lot more is he has a sense of humor and I laugh when I listen to his cds sometimes. I have a number of his cds and dvds and enjoy watching some of them because he can be particularly good at poking fun at our foibles.
Maybe Krishnamurti has a sense of humor too but I never detected one and he always seemed kind of stern to me. He seemed frustrated that people could not follow along with him and ‘get it.’ I could be wrong but that was the impression I got from what I saw and read. I saw a video of him with some kids and that softened my perception of him. But I have not seen a lot of video of him so it probably isn't fair to evaluate him. If any body has some good links to particular video of K that disprove that perception of him, please post them for me. thx
Tolle strikes me as a very kind, humble and beautiful person. I have great respect for his ability to convey some fundamental spiritual truths to a very wide audience.
quote:
VIL wrote:
Anyway, the opening was beyond samadhi, since I realized after the fact that I had a natural ability as a kid of using the dream state to affect the physical world. The reason I could produce heart orgasms, et al, and many other things.
In other words, the finer discrimination of the colorings of the dream state that most Buddhist students work on after the witness is established was already established within me.
I don’t have any abilities on a psychic level. I remember some dreams but not a lot. What I am hoping for is a more or less continuous “intensified and sublime state”, the three fruits of AYP: inner silence, ecstatic conductivity and outpouring divine love.
quote:
Vil wrote:
So there you have it and how it happens with me. What starts out as one thing wraps around and becomes another, but always ends up positive:
I have noticed this, too. When I want something really badly, it usually happens, but not in the way I expect exactly, but in the ball park anyways and enough to recognize it, and it is always good for me.
quote:
VIL wrote:
Anyway, that's probably why I was drawn to this thead, but I always looked at this in a different way than I do now, because who I thought was a friend really wasn't, although I knew this, and my teacher was more of a friend and I should have went directly to him to avoid the whole situation. So I realized that I gave my heart to the wrong person. It just hit me today.
Faked out again! People can be very mean. What can you say?
Best, yb.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2008 : 10:39:43 AM
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Hey, yogibear, thanks for the response. I'm working on self pacing, so I won't be posting for some time, since I need a break.
Take care:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Mar 07 2008 1:12:17 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2008 : 08:52:29 AM
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OK, VIL.
Nice chatting with you. See you around.
Best, yb.
From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
"Know the world to be emptiness with no substance.
There is nothing here and there is nothing to do.
Therefore, spiritual practices are not necessary…..
This is the classic advaita (non-dual) approach to
self-inquiry and spiritual development…..
While philosophically sound, on the practical level
it is a narrow view, which contains more than a little
irony – the exclusion of the world from an all-inclusive
non-dual view!"
From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
"If we are inquiring about who we are (Who am I?),
or making affirmations about who we are (I am That),
and these are only ideas making more ideas, rather than
releasing into the actual presence of inner silence (the
witness), then the inquiry or affirmation will be nonrelational,
and therefore not very practical."
So, self inquiry can take the form of affirmation as opposed to inquiry.
From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
“This is not difficult to do if our inner witness is
present. It is the essence of discrimination based in
relational self-inquiry. We can choose. Neti neti – not
this, not this….
The variations on this process are endless, but the
basic mechanics are always the same. We observe our
thoughts and let them go.”
From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
“True self-inquiry is a state
of constant release in stillness, which occurs when we
reach the dispassion stage of mind”.....
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2008 : 09:58:55 AM
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Hi Yogani,
From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
The purpose of self-inquiry is to use the mind to
question and transcend these assumptions that are
associated with “I am…”
The nature of relational self-inquiry for ultimate
truth is such that every thought, feeling and experience
is met with the silent impulse, “Who is experiencing
this?” even as life goes on in all of its ordinary ways.
There is no strain or fuss about it. It is very easy and
natural.
The inevitable answer to the question is, “I am
experiencing this.”
Then, what naturally follows is, “Who am I?”
There can be many descriptions of who “I” is.
“I am Bob or Betty.”
“I am this body.”
“I am these thoughts.”
“I am the one who is here.”
I have a question. I tend not to go thru all of these questions. I tend to go right to the answer and let it go.
It is something like this: this thought is superfluous and this thought that 'this thought is superfluous' is superfluous.
I tend to go right to my assumption that any thing beyond 'I am' is false and I think 'I am spirit and nothing but spirit' or 'I am that I am' and let it go.
Or I might identify my identification and then its opposite and plug them into this statement:
"I am not this, I am not that. I simply am"..........................
Example:
“I am not male, I am not female. I am that I am”.....................
Or I might not do any of this. I might just simply recognize that I am not present and that recognition is itself presence.
Is this correct? OK? What about affirmational self inquiry which is based on assumptions as to what is the true nature of myself or previous direct experience of myself as 'spirit and nothing but spirit'?
In other words, I already know the correct answer. It is just that I forgot it and have to remind myself again....and again....and again....and again.
Is it wrong to go right to the assumption without questioning? What is the difference between self assumption and self inquiry? I guess these are my questions.
Thanks, yb.
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 09:10:18 AM
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Hi Yogani,
From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
"First, it is good to know that in our essential nature
we are unbounded pure bliss consciousness, and that all
we are doing in practices is unfolding what we already
are in our daily life."
"If we are inquiring about who we are (Who am I?),
or making affirmations about who we are (I am That),
Upon further reflection, what I am getting at is, is self inquiry starting from a place of 'not knowing'? I think it could be done coming from a place of knowing, but if that is so, is it really inquiry?
That is how I have done it up to this point, as affirmation from knowledge. But what if the source of the knowledge is a book and not direct experience?
This is why you need meditation. Correct?
What is the difference between ‘self affirmation’ and ‘self inquiry’ if any?
Best, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Mar 20 2008 08:37:21 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 10:46:23 AM
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Hi YB:
"Jnana Yoga" includes these elements:
1. Inquiry -- "Who am I?" etc.
2. Discrimination -- "Not this, not this." (neti neti), etc.
3. Affirmation -- "I am That." etc.
They occur more or less in order as we develop along the path, with some obvious overlaps. The trick is to keep it relational (evolving in stillness), or mental tangents will begin to dominate. With daily deep meditation, samyama, etc., the evolution occurs naturally. The more we think about it, the less it will be working for us. That's why the suggestion is to engage in sitting practices and then go out and do. The mental component will become illuminated naturally then, and we will know it when we see it. 
The guru is in you.
PS: There is also "dispassion," which is a phenomenon we will be discussing more as we move forward, I'm sure.
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 12:59:22 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 9:10:24 PM
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Hi Yogani,
Thanks for putting it in a nut shell. I can better see how it all fits together now.
To dispassion and beyond.
Best, yb. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2008 : 08:50:38 AM
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From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
Each of these is inquired about in turn, until the last
vestige of objectivity has been dissolved, and only the
subject remains – the ultimate truth.
Tail end of the affirmation encapsulating the teaching in the second lesson of the book Raja Yoga by Yogi Ramacharaka:
That which remains after all that may be set aside is set aside is the "I"--Myself--eternal, constant, unchangable. |
Edited by - yogibear on Mar 12 2008 08:28:53 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 08:28:21 AM
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From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
So, whether we are just starting out on our path, or
are quite far along, cultivating the witness will be the
best insurance we can have to guard against the pitfalls
of the mind.
From the book Sexual Energy and Yoga by Elisabeth Haich:
By far the best and surest weapon against danger of any kind is never to lose hold of one's consciousness.....We must hold onto our own consciousness, never let it go, therefore we must always be awake, always here! |
Edited by - yogibear on Mar 12 2008 08:55:17 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 08:26:44 AM
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From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
"Is dispassion a state of indifference, a state of
uncaring? Does it mean we do not act or react in the
world? It does not mean that. It is just the opposite.
Much of spiritual development is paradoxical, with less
becoming much more."
From the book, Yoga and Destiny by Haich and Yesudian:
We must have no passions! We must cling to nothing and no one, either living or dead! In everything we must seek and find the true being, the essence, the eternal, and we must look at everything from the standpoint of universal love. In everything that is personal we must recognize the temporal which changes and passes away, and must never feel pain or sorrow when the moment of passing away comes. And let us not imagine that by virtue of achieving this impersonal and objective viewpoint we may gradually become dulled and blunted. Quite the contrary! We will be all the more able to rejoice with the joyful and to feel true sympathy for those who mourn.
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Edited by - yogibear on Mar 13 2008 08:34:52 AM |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2008 : 4:55:41 PM
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"All phenomena, the Buddha once said, are rooted in desire. Everything we think, say, or do — every experience — comes from desire. Even we come from desire. We were reborn into this life because of our desire to be. Consciously or not, our desires keep redefining our sense of who we are. Desire is how we take our place in the causal matrix of space and time. The only thing not rooted in desire is nirvana, for it's the end of all phenomena and lies even beyond the Buddha's use of the word "all." But the path that takes you to nirvana is rooted in desire — in skillful desires. The path to liberation pushes the limits of skillful desires to see how far they can go."
Pushing the Limits: Desire & Imagination in the Buddhist Path by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
aum namaste,
Joe |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 08:20:00 AM
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Hi brushjw,
Nice quote. Thanks. Here is another good one along the same lines.
From the book Raja Yoga by Yesudian and Haich:
"Here lies the great error of the human race. The I, the SELF has no desire. Desires are always natural forces active in our physical being, and persons with a low degree of consciousness identify themselves wlith these natural forces. In this way we create various unreal selves, and through constantly gratifying our physical desires as a matter of habit we build up these unreal selves until they gain such power over us that we are no longer able to distinguish between the self-created false appearance and our own true divine being, our real and immortal SELF.
The sum total of these false selves makes up our person--our personality. We can observe these false selves arise and are constantly changing. One disappears and in its place we find another. Today we are fascinated by something and tomorrow our enthusiasm will have vanished. The weather may be different, or the electric tension in the air is changed--and we just cannot imagine how, only the day before, we could have wanted something that has no appeal for us at all today. Our today's ego cannot even understand our ego of yesterday, let alone our ego of past years. Under the influence of momentary impressions, new personalities are constantly being born within us. But down in the innermost depths of our being there dwells the eternal immutable SELF, and those of us who hold fast to it are not deceived by these changing appearances."
From the book, Self Inquiry by Yogani:
"Once we have cultivated the witness in this
manner, we have also developed the key ability
necessary for self-inquiry, which is being able to allow
thoughts and perceptions to pass by in favor of stillness.
We don’t have to cling to them anymore, or the
associated inner dramas we have created in the past, for
we have found our sense of self, our home, in
something more pleasing, more lasting, and more
present. Pure consciousness – our own Self." |
Edited by - yogibear on Mar 15 2008 08:38:50 AM |
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