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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 03 2008 : 10:19:47 AM
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Lots of great stuff in this interview with Adyashanti (it's long, so probably best to print out to read):
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issue...sound?page=1
I'll select some highlights:
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Awakening is when you realize that what you thought you were was nothing more than a dream, and you perceive the reality outside the dream, what’s dreaming the dream of you. It’s not just a mystical experience.
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One of the best ways to avoid awakening is to let the idea of awakening be co-opted by the mind and then projected onto a future event: something that’s going to happen outside of this moment. Of course, something may happen in the next moment — something’s always happening in the next moment — but the truth lies right here and right now; it is right here and right now. This looking to the future isn’t really the fault of the spiritual practices themselves; it’s the attitude with which the mind engages in the practices — an attitude that is seeking a future end and seeing that end as somehow inherently different from what already exists here and now.
The role of the spiritual practice is basically to exhaust the seeker. If the practice does what it’s supposed to do, it exhausts our energy for seeking, and then reality has a chance to present itself. In that sense, spiritual practices can help lead to awakening. But that’s different from saying that the practice produces the awakening.
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Q: Saunders: Some spiritual teachers talk about a new state of consciousness for humanity on the horizon, an evolutionary leap, a New Age. Do you see any evidence of this?
A: Not much. [Laughs.] In fact, I see a lot of evidence to the contrary. Of course, I really hope I’m wrong.
To equate enlightenment with the evolution of consciousness for humanity is to absolutely misunderstand what enlightenment is all about. And it’s nothing new. People have been saying for thousands of years that we’re on the cusp of “a new state of consciousness,” and they will for thousands more. By and large, it is a mechanism for putting ourselves to sleep rather than waking up. Most people who think they’re part of the greater awakening of humanity are actually just aggrandizing their own egos. The truth is we don’t know the future. We can’t know the future. One of the best ways to stay asleep is to wait for a future when we’ll all be awake. But, like I said, I hope I’m wrong. If the whole world wakes up tomorrow, I’ll be glad that I was wrong.
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The next thing I knew, I was the bird, and I was the sound, and I was the person listening; I was everything. I thought, I’ll be damned. I had tasted this at twenty-five, but there had been so much energy and spiritual byproduct. This time I didn’t get elated. It was just factual.
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It’s very easy to use disciplines to avoid reality rather than to encounter it. A true spirituality will have you continually facing your illusions and all the ways you avoid reality. Spiritual practice may be an important means of confronting yourself, or it may be a means of avoiding yourself; it all depends on your attitude and intention.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 09:51:57 AM
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Although unsolicited I am going to comment on this:
quote:
To equate enlightenment with the evolution of consciousness for humanity is to absolutely misunderstand what enlightenment is all about. And it’s nothing new. People have been saying for thousands of years that we’re on the cusp of “a new state of consciousness,” and they will for thousands more. By and large, it is a mechanism for putting ourselves to sleep rather than waking up. Most people who think they’re part of the greater awakening of humanity are actually just aggrandizing their own egos. The truth is we don’t know the future. We can’t know the future. One of the best ways to stay asleep is to wait for a future when we’ll all be awake. But, like I said, I hope I’m wrong. If the whole world wakes up tomorrow, I’ll be glad that I was wrong.
The reason that every spiritual tradition speaks of The Great Year, The Golden Age, Age of Aquarius, Kali Yuga, The Last Days, New age of Enlightenment and on and on and on is that they know the reality of things.
In other words, a fig is the same in the West as it is in the East without the need of telling a person how it tastes. The difference is percieving this same fruit at different levels of inception. One may see the fruit (future) by looking at the seed (past), while another sees just the tree (present). While still another is able to explain the process of how a seed grows to the stage of fruition. Since He, as Buddha, has patiently observed the entire process and becomes the fruit itself. Whether that tree be in India or America makes no difference to the Sun, which supports all these chains of life.
If there is no need for progression than the earth would be self-sufficient and would be able to revolve without the Sun. And since we also know that the earth was once something else until it came into its present condition, it will undoubtebly evolve/progress into something else in a future place and time. This is scientifically/univerally proven and one way that the ancients knew that a future age of enlightenment would repeat a past age of enlightenment, supporting the existence of progression/evolution.
These Ancient Powerhouses also knew that Divine Order/Law controlled the entire cosmos, otherwise we would not have the opportunity to experience life. If there were no Order then the solar system would disappear within a black hole, we would be scorched by radiation, or something else of this nature. Take away the animal kingdom and all other kindgoms die. Take away the seed and all other kingdoms die. Take away Order and everything dies.
So it's not the misunderstanding on the part of these Realized Souls/Epitomes of Law, when they mention the coming of a new age of enlightenment, nor was it ego aggrandizement, otherwise they would not have sacrificed everything to bring others to this same state of awareness or realization of universal law. Self sacrifice has nothing to do with the ego. Sacrificing everything for the spiritual upliftment and progress of the human race is pure selflessness, and I can't think of anything more self less (pure)than that. To call this the ego is a great error - and is like a child splashing around within a mud puddle who is enamored when he realizes that he's seen his reflection atop the water and is further wrapt in the simutaneous/internal realization when he hears his voice - realizing that it was he himself that was observing himself the whole time. But where on earth is his mother?
Let's not mistake the mirage for water or the reflection for the reality itself.
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 05 2008 10:01:19 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 10:54:59 AM
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Hi Jim & VIL:
To put it in bhakti terms, is our ishta (chosen ideal) a non-existent illusion? If so, it is one we need. Likewise with the emergence of divine love and its associated actions, which dissolve the perception of all objects in Oneness.
True advaitists (practitioners/experiencers of non-duality) are the greatest bhaktis of all. So they often speak with forked tongue.
It is true that spiritual disciplines (including self-inquiry) can be used to avoid the issue. But if they are effective well-integrated disciplines, the issue will be upon us sooner rather than later. Way better than doing nothing. Adyashanti knows this, but tends to make light of it, which is misleading, because it encourages non-relational self-inquiry -- a slow boat to China.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 11:12:25 AM
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Nicely said, Yogani. I see the evidence that all roads lead to awakening for everyone eventually. Humanity plays out on a verrrry gradually sloped table, and the slope leads inexorably to awakening. People may putter around for seemingly ever at the top of the slope, barely noticing the pull. But that pull - the gravitational force that causes the slope - is bhakti, and it will win in the long run***. There's a process of acceleration as people drift down the slope, and get pulled more and more by the attraction of bhakti. So, as you say (though not in these words), sooner or later, the inevitable is inevitable!
But Adyashanti isn't contradicting that. He's just guessing "later" rather than "sooner", and warning those with messiah/ego issues that no one person is key (the slope does it all, not individual ego minds).
***- what is 'long run' in the context of our finite human lives, in which for many of us bhakti barely pulls at all yet? Shoot, I'm skeptical about reincarnation, but I'm starting to see the basis, I guess. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 05 2008 2:04:09 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 12:43:15 PM
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Q: Saunders: Some spiritual teachers talk about a new state of consciousness for humanity on the horizon, an evolutionary leap, a New Age. Do you see any evidence of this?
A: Not much. [Laughs.] In fact, I see a lot of evidence to the contrary. Of course, I really hope I’m wrong.
To equate enlightenment with the evolution of consciousness for humanity is to absolutely misunderstand what enlightenment is all about. And it’s nothing new. People have been saying for thousands of years that we’re on the cusp of “a new state of consciousness,” and they will for thousands more.
VIL, I think you may be misunderstanding Adyashanti. I can also see Adyashanti's reply here in this context as a criticism of those expectations and thought-patterns that we could call apocalyptic, millennialist, fin de siecle, or maybe even, 'New Age' (depending on how you define it).
He's right that... let's see, how can I put this technically.... he's right that there's a "we're all getting enlightened tomorrow" vibe going around. And people really do mean tomorrow -- or next year or within a few years. And he's right that for thousands of years, various people have, in one way or another, been expecting radical spiritual change within a few years. And they never got it.
And mark you, VIL, if you know of some very universally highly-regarded spiritual masters like Buddha who have been stoking this kind of apocalyptic energy, I want to know about it. Because I don't see it. There's nothing at all in Buddha's teachings to support that kind of notion as far as I know. Buddha does talk about spiritual evolution, but he seems to be talking about geological time, not in any way consistent with an apocalyptic New Age revolution. It's evolution, not revolution with the Buddha.
And Andyshanti's right that, typically, 'ego' is tremendously bound up with those kind of Revolution expectations.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 05 2008 2:50:18 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 2:53:04 PM
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That said, I'd agree with you if you said that he says does seem to be too severe and sweeping, depending on how you read it. But we have to keep in mind that this is a spoken interview, so we should probably make allowances accordingly.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 3:01:31 PM
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Hi All:
There is a certain irony here.
Is is less realistic to imagine a better future and work in incremental steps toward it than to attempt to unwind our strategies of non-relationship to reality in the present? Is there really a difference? Both will take time. Both are being unrealistic if they claim instant results. Both will be avoidance (non-relational) if engaged in for their own sake.
Expectations for either the future or the now are still expectations. And what is so bad about that? Without some vision and enthusiasm, whether it be for now or for later (which is also now), we will not be inclined to be doing much to transcend our perception of objects to Oneness.
Obviously, it is not a good idea to proclaim an enlightened age (or "the end") is just around the corner, unless we happen to be wearing a sandwich board sign. Promises of individual enlightenment by such-and-such a time are not a good idea either. It is equally unrealistic to promise that enlightenment is here with us already, even if it seems to be so for the person who is proclaiming it. Each person has their own experience to contend with, their own reality, their own time line, and that is the truth for each of us. It certainly can be unwound and opened with the aid of systematic means, but not in an instant. The prospect of instant enlightenment is one of the greater illusions along the path, causing many people all sorts of trouble.
Rather than go on empty promises about now or later, much better we all do the best we can in practices each day, and what will happen will happen. There is a progression we can go through, with identifiable milestones along the way. Here we call it the process of human spiritual transformation.
I don't share the treadmill view of the future (or the past) that Adyshanti seems to have. It is pretty obvious that humanity is advancing in spiritual knowledge and experience, especially over the past century. It has been going on for much longer than that. The dark ages ended around 1000 AD and we have been slowly climbing ever since, albeit not without big setbacks from time to time. It is also clear that progress is accelerating, concurrent with the growth of the practical application of knowledge of all kinds, including spiritual. So what's not to be optimistic about? Is this progress irrelevant to individual enlightenment? I think not, since it bodes well for many millions of individuals who want to live the truth that is constantly tingling inside.
It all comes back to what we are doing to better ourselves today, and that is a function of what inspires us from the past, present or future. Why should we care from where our inspiration comes? It is all in the heart and mind anyway, and ultimately transcended. Any stairway of desire used for that purpose will do. It's a personal choice.
As long as we are not setting ourselves up for a fall with unrealistic expectations. That is a risk in all of this, no matter what ideal or teaching we are using. A major setback in motivation can happen when considering the now just as easily as when considering the then and the when. And, as we well know, a setback can happen when fixating on a "who" too.
It is about taking personal responsibility, using whatever motivation and tools we have, and doing whatever is necessary to fulfill our destiny. It is both spectacular and ordinary. In the Self-Inquiry book, it is called spectacular ordinariness.
We will know all aspects of it as we move along, and can describe it in our own words. No need to focus too much on teachers who ramble on about their own experience. Each person's process of unfoldment is much more important than that. Anyone who has a handle on it will agree.
For the record, and if it matters, I don't think Adyashanti and I are very far apart on any of these points. It is only a matter of individual background and perspective on the very same thing. If it is the same thing, how could it be different? 
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 7:37:35 PM
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I watched the movie "Mad Money" tonight. It was hilarious. I won't give away the spoilers, but I have to tell you about this one scene.
Okay, the gist of the movie to lead up to the scene, (as you've probably already seen on previews), is that three women decide to rob the bank where they work (Dianne Keaton, Queen Latifah and Katie Holmes).
Anyway, after they have successfully robbed enough money to get themselves on their feet, they are deciding whether to continue to steal. Dianne Keaton wants to continue on stealing and is met with opposition from Queen Latifah and Katie Holmes who are afraid of getting caught. They are out to dinner with their significant others.
At dinner, and in the midst of trying to convince Katie and Queen Latifah to continue to rob more money, Dianne Keaton baits Katie's need by saying, 'Come on now, you have dreams don't you, sweetie? I mean, there must be something that you want to do with your life? Some exotic place you want to go??... Somewhere... special???'
So Katie begins to doubt herself and says, 'Well, I don't know. I did always want to go to Italy and France and maybe Checkoslovakia'. And Dianne's husband cuts Katie off and says, 'Actually there is no Checozlovakia'. And a dumbfounded Katie looks at him and says, 'There isn't?'. And he says, 'No, it doesn't exist anymore, it was broken up in ninety two, it's now the Czech Republic and Russian Dominican'. Katie, hesitates, then says, 'Well... I can still go to the India Continent? India still exists? Right?': 
LOLOLOLOL.
I had to share that scene. It was a riot.
So... I've read all of the great wisdom from all of you fine folks and wanted to thank you for that. I couldn't comment any further, since I've lost interest in the subject.
Take care, my friends:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 05 2008 8:42:43 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 10:42:31 PM
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Good one VIL.
Adyashanti said:
The role of the spiritual practice is basically to exhaust the seeker. If the practice does what it’s supposed to do, it exhausts our energy for seeking, and then reality has a chance to present itself. In that sense, spiritual practices can help lead to awakening. But that’s different from saying that the practice produces the awakening.
I've heard that line before, and I don't think it's right at all. The real story is much, much richer -- that one is just a bit too pat and over-simplified. It's the kind of thing that our it's-right-here-now brethren say, when they aren't putting practices down entirely.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 11:11:32 PM
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David, I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying. He's not denigrating practices. He's not being sardonic about the exhaustion - i.e. averring that it serves no purpose. Take him 100% literally. He's right. The seeker absolutely must be exhausted by the seeking.
By analogy, the seeking STARTS when we give in to an exhausted disenchantment re: the enticements of the exterior world and their fundamental limitations. You do not start seeking if you still deeply and unquestionably assume that a winning lottery ticket or a comely blonde will fill your emptiness. You have to have seen enough of the world to grok its inherent limitations. After exhausting search in the outer world, the inner journey begins .
And most people remain inner journeyers, which isn't all that different from external journeying. There are many highly "skilled" seekers. They're "good" at meditation and stuff. You know that until the day they die, they will continue to proudly belong to the tribe of Seekers. It's who they are and what they do. They've swapped a Seeker self-image for a Banker self image or Coke Dealer self image. As with bankers and coke dealers, there are pleasures in one's position (in this case, bliss and smugness and maybe some magic tricks). They've just changed flavors, yet they still hunger, because that's what seeking is, whether external or internal: hunger. You notice that bucks, blondes, or bliss can't fill the emptiness.
Lots to drop. You've just got to get damned sick of the seeking, be it inner or outer. You only abandon effort (not the practice....the effort BEHIND the practice!) after seeing through to its futility, and that comes after a whole lot of effort. So it's pretty much required! We exhaust the outer world before seeking, and exhaust the inner world before awakening.
The pranotthana (release of prana) that precedes kundalini is a taste of this. It's a move born of devotion and exhaustion. The two are the same. Surrender only comes after a battle...and thank goodness, we do lose in the end! It's good to see the checkmate ahead of time rather than persevere stubbornly till every last piece is gone. Dude, wake up and realize you're LOSING! And it's winner take all... |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 06 2008 01:07:57 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 09:05:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Lots to drop. You've just got to get damned sick of the seeking, be it inner or outer. You only abandon effort (not the practice....the effort BEHIND the practice!) after seeing through to its futility, and that comes after a whole lot of effort. So it's pretty much required! We exhaust the outer world before seeking, and exhaust the inner world before awakening.
Hi Jim:
The only issue I have with this is the presumption in advaita self-inquiry that realization is of the mind only. Wear down the mind and associated expectations, and there is realization. Voilla!
Well, maybe, but a whole lot of neurobiology has to come along to support that end. Hence the "...so much energy and spiritual by-product" Adyashanti refers to. Stand alone jnana, the path of knowledge, skips all that, and the methodologies for dealing with it. It can make for a rough trip, or no trip at all.
In yoga, the neurobiology is the thing, with the mind being one part of that larger playing field. Hence, many more angles are taken, which I think is an advantage. In yoga, the mental component (jnana) is one of the many angles. In a pure advaita approach, the mental component is the only angle, which is sort of like trying to kill an elephant with a pea shooter.
There is really no way to defend that as a viable approach, with so much more being available these days, and with so little success in stand alone approaches for anything, whether it be self-inquiry, physical practices, pranayama, or even meditation without integration of the many other useful practices we have available.
I agree with David that Adyashanti's conclusion about "practices" is rather superficial and parochial, looking at it from an advaita point of view with too much focus on mental algorithms. On the plus side, he is among the more eclectic of the advaitists and, as I understand it, does support the use of meditation to aid in cultivating the witness. That is to his credit and is pretty good news for his students, and for advaita in general. I suppose his Buddhist background is to be thanked for that.
The guru is in you.
PS: It occurs after-the-fact that the perceived limitations of practice (and over-reliance on the mind) may be part of Adyashanti's pessimism about humanity's spiritual prospects. I have many more reasons to be optimistic!
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Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 10:56:28 AM
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Dear Yogani,
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. I could write this a million more times and not exhaust my gratitude for your presentation and integration of these ancient methods.
As genuinine as Adya sounds, I am so happy that I ran into ayp first instead of his teachings. It's funny that Adya largely ascribes a minor role to practices and warns about the dangers as much if not more than the benefits. I guess when you are born with a high baseline of inner silence you find it hard to believe that others are severely lacking in this department.
Furthermore, the advaitists' constant call for dropping everything, constantly questioning who am I is not only a practice but is a ridiculous proposition for the majority of seekeers who are enmeshed in typical life struggles and are without sufficient grounding in silence.
In my case, my interest in spirituality shares time with regular life concerns (career/relationships etc...)as well as dealing with so much psychological baggage from childhood and the last few years. About a year into ayp, I can't even begin to describe the impact of the rising inner silence on all aspects of my life. The inner silence has become a guide and I equate it to the grace of God.
Inner silence has become my psychologist, my career advisor, and most importantly my mirror. It has allowed me to sort through so much baggage. I'm assuming the majority of seekers are carrying this weight around and self inquiry would most likely lead us only to bearing arms. Ayp on the other hand has shown me that the lugging of the weight is not necessary as life is more than capable of handling it for us. I never knew silence could have such an impact!
By the way (especially for fellow new seekers) the silence isn't some kind of magical thing which makes everything allright overnight but rather heightens our good judgement and provides a safety net of energy, clarity, wisdom, and a certain kind of higher will power (not requiring as much effort or convincing as plain old will power) allowing us to work through our problems. The work is slow and gradual. There is ebb and flow but no mistaking that the direction is divine.
So I plead with the advaitists and others who would denigrate practices (at least in my opinion) by saying that the best part of practices are that they wear us down, to not forget the simple truth that the majority of us have a lot of regular issues that need to be addressed first before simply being able to see the apparent truth. And If you say to forget about the problems because they are an illusion and simply go for the Ultimate realization, I can only say that I put on my boxers first and then my jeans. The idea of being enlightened and then working on my problems sounds like a mind trap to me. (Dualy noting that according to Yogani, making sense as usual, there is always work to do even for the enlightened).
In short, practices are practical, improving our daily lives if nothing else and most likely cultivating the requisite silence to see the apparent truth of advaita. There is surely a time and place for self inquiry and honestly I see that it almost begins automatically (just like the other limbs of yoga)when the time/silence is right. It never hurts to hear the truth but it doesn't help much when the ears and mind of the listener are closed or in a state of chaos or enmeshed in misindentity.
I just wonder if anybody has ever introduced Adya to ayp's systematic and integrated approach. I would be willing to bet that even a majority of Adya's audience could benefit from being introduced first to ayp or atleast practicinig concurrently. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 10:56:40 AM
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quote:
The only issue I have with this is the presumption in advaita self-inquiry that realization is of the mind only. Wear down the mind and associated expectations, and there is realization. Voilla!
But Yogani, that's not what I'm saying. And I don't believe that's what Adyashanti is saying. It is indeed what some of the nondualists say, and I realize that's something you have major issue with - and I happen to share those issues.
I'm pretty sure you'll agree with this: the mind be transcended. And that generally can only happen after it's noticed the ever-growing number of dead ends in worldly seeking and in spiritual seeking. One does not surrender if one still believes divine satisfaction can come from a winning lottery ticket. And, after lots of meditation, one does not surrender if one still believes enlightenment awaits as a future stop in one's route of spiritual experiences. Once exhaustion occurs re: the outer world, one turns inward. Once exhaustion occurs re: the inner world, one lets go into What Is.
But is there more to do? Damn right. The letting go needs to bake into body and heart and needs to endure 24/7, and needs to turn outward, and it, and it needs to somehow permeate thoroughly into the vast landscape of unconscious samskaras. Adyashanti recognizes this, as well, and, fwiw, eloquently discusses this in his video, "The Journey After Awakening".
But his point, which is undeniably(?) true, is that if you don't exhaust the mind first, you never get there. The mind MUST stop seeking. That does NOT mean "do not seek in the first place". The advaitans who say that are just stoopid and half-baked, IMO 
To return to my analogy of exhausting one's seeking in the external world, it's like telling an eight year old that riches and fame and sex and the rest are all worthless....don't even bother looking for them, there's no satisfaction in them -- and expecting it to penetrate deeply and have them turn resolutely inward. You gotta go plunge in for a good long time, and see for yourself! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 06 2008 11:04:28 AM |
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Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 11:34:00 AM
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"But his point, which is undeniably(?) true, is that if you don't exhaust the mind first, you never get there. The mind MUST stop seeking. That does NOT mean "do not seek in the first place"
Well Jim my point would be that one might as well exhaust the mind in a practical way, i.e, practices which will have a lot more useful effects (not in the sense of attaining but rather peace/clarity/energy.....)rather than self inquiry being the primary method.
Oh yeah by the way, how will the mind get exhausted??? It seems like we are moving from statements such as : the mind is the problem, kill the mind, kill the ego, etc.... to the more benign suggestion to exhaust the mind. Although I am no where close to experientally verifying any of this, I don't think that the mind can get exhausted out of frustration or fatigue alone but rather the majority of the work will be done by the inner silence which will use not only frustration and fatigue but also love, reassurance, purpose, and most importantly clarity/wisdom.
Atleast Adya has moved beyond the stubborness of past advaitists, e.g, J Krishnamurti and atleast acknowledged a role for practices. However, it still seems like he lacks the wisdom to know or understand that the majority of seekers are further away than just waking up and realizing the eternal truth but rather there seems to be a neurobiological journey necessary for realization.
Adya is no doubt genunine and well intentioned but his teachings seem a better fit for advanced seekers on the cusp of realization or atleast with a solid foundation of stillness. I hope he knows his audience. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 11:54:04 AM
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quote:
Adya is no doubt genunine and well intentioned but his teachings seem a better fit for advanced seekers on the cusp of realization
It's never too early, though, to "bake in" a little at least the FLAVOR of the fact that this isn't something to do or achieve; that it's really the cessation of doing and achieving. So much of what brings us grief and frustration is the result of habit and conditioning. It makes sense, when undertaking a regimen of meditation, to at least have a wary eye toward having that regimen build up yet more habit and conditioning . At very least, having this flavor bolsters one's determination to do practices like brushing teeth (at least it does for me!).
I find Adyashanti and also Sailor Bob ( http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7 ) to be especially wonderful planters of that seed. They create a sort of friction with the machinations of one's ego, which, if you're sincere and honest with yourself, can be very educational.
There are those who read this stuff and say "I get it...there's nothing to do or to achieve. Cool! I'm good!". As Yogani says, they only "get" it in the mind. They understand in mind that there is no mind. It's a mind trip (though there's at least a little opening involved). it's not enough. But if you couple these teachings with meditation, it lends a wonderful balance.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 06 2008 12:33:22 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 11:57:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
I'm pretty sure you'll agree with this: the mind be transcended. And that generally can only happen after it's noticed the ever-growing number of dead ends in worldly seeking and in spiritual seeking. One does not surrender if one still believes divine satisfaction can come from a winning lottery ticket. And, after lots of meditation, one does not surrender if one still believes enlightenment awaits as a future stop in one's route of spiritual experiences. Once exhaustion occurs re: the outer world, one turns inward. Once exhaustion occurs re: the inner world, one lets go into What Is.
Hi Jim:
Yes, mind is transcended. But don't you see it is the mind you are putting at the center of the process? A tough slog, because the mind is not at the center. Inner silence is.
"Exhausting the mind" is not part of my vocabulary. "Illuminating the mind" is the way I see the process. Nothing has to be exhausted. Everything becomes awakened from within stillness. Maybe it is symantics, but I think the attitudes we are talking about here are significantly different, and with far-reaching consequences.
I can assure you that with the rise of the witness, the awakening will occur whether one considers themself to be exhausting or illuminating the mind, which will be a relief to many, I'm sure. It was a relief to me.
Much better to be considering adding something than subtracting everything, even if it is the same process occurring. Point of view makes a big difference in this, because who will want to add useful supporting practices while engaged in the never-ending process of trying to exhaust the mind? It is a contradiction.
By Adyashanti's own admission, the path/mental attitude he prescribes is not for the masses (he does not expect much of humanity). The simple path of deep meditation leading to self-inquiry and all other aspects of yoga and fullness in living is for the masses. That is the difference. Exhaustion versus illumination. I'll take the latter, thank you very much.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 12:00:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
But don't you see it is the mind you are putting at the center of the process
No. I see the non-dualists with whom you quarrel putting the mind at the center of the process. They are the straw men in your postings in this thread.
I see Adyashanti putting the mind as part of the process. And that's what I'm saying, too.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 12:07:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
But don't you see it is the mind you are putting at the center of the process
No. I see the non-dualists with whom you quarrel putting the mind at the center of the process. They are the straw men in your postings in this thread.
I see Adyashanti putting the mind as part of the process. And that's what I'm saying, too.
Hi Jim:
All these points of view are useful, tickling our awareness.
Thank you Adyashanti, and Jim, and David, and VIL, and Eitherway.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 12:31:48 PM
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And thank you, even more, Yogani!
Though I didn't feel you were speaking, specifically, to Adyashanti's quote (or my attempted explanation), I should note that I completely agree, on principle, with all you've said, and have gained insight from the way you stated it (I can't wait to read the self inquiry book!). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 06 2008 12:40:48 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 1:23:51 PM
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Jim said to Yogani:
No. I see the non-dualists with whom you quarrel putting the mind at the center of the process. They are the straw men in your postings in this thread.
Perhaps. But whether it's a straw man or not, I'm not making it anyway. What I'm saying is that it is very misleading to say that the role of practices is to exhaust the seeker.
It's a totally inadequate way of casting a rich process, which can mislead in all sorts of ways.
It may be true that 'cessation of seeking' is part of enlightenment. But the 'cessation of seeking' is really only one angle on what is actually a finding at a neurobiological level. You are doomed to seek until you find. No way out of that. That people 'found' in the context of 'ceasing seeking' has confused them into thinking they are a counterexample to what I've just said. They aren't, they are an example of it!
The role of practices is to help create the neurobiological conditions in which the finding (or the cessation of seeking, if you prefer) arises. That's the proper casting of the story.
Adyashanti's casting is inadequate in a few ways. Firstly, 'exhaust the seeker' is not a proper characterization at all of what happens as that foundation is being laid. It's not even close to being good. If he had said the 'cessation of seeking' instead of 'exhaust the seeker', it might be more defensible. What he said also creates the impression that 'exhaustion' is what these practices are up to. In fact, the practices are a set of tools, precisely targeted to encourage and direct neurobiological events. Saying their role is to exhaust you is like saying that the role of sleeping, say, or eating, are to exhaust you....
Imagine saying that the role of giving your child proper nutrition and proper sleep during his/her adolescence is to 'exhaust' him --- and justifying that by an observation that when properly fed and slept, his adolescent 'issues' tend to quieten!
That kind of statement Adyashanti made does seem to be the kind of thing that people say if they don't understand the power (and effect) of the practices, and rather, understand them in a limited way that does not give the practices their proper credit.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 06 2008 5:44:03 PM |
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Black Rebel Radio
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 1:31:04 PM
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Eitherway said "If you say to forget about the problems because they are an illusion and simply go for the Ultimate realization, I can only say that I put on my boxers first and then my jeans."
And I might add...
My mom always told me to make sure I was wearing clean underwear just in case I got into a spiritual accident.
Peace and Love AND a few laughs...
Mac |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 1:43:47 PM
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Sorry Jim but I have to tell you reading this thread highlights my beef with the advaitists, always sound like scolding. I have this same beef with all spiritual teachers who scold. Scolding only makes me want to avoid all things so-called spiritual.
Yogani, your words always offer comfort AND inspiration to practice without actually putting anyone down. Many thanks for being a light to me.
Sorry to be blunt.
Jill |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 2:37:25 PM
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| Jill, before judging Adyashanti on the basis of the quote I've extracted, plus my (apparently poor) attempt to explain it, please have a look at the interview, so he can be judged on his own basis, rather than via my flawed filtration. it's at ttp://www.thesunmagazine.org/issue..._sound?page=1 and I'd be really surprised if you were to maintain this opinion of him after reading that. But if I'm wrong and you do, I'd expect nothing less than your frank opinion! :) |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2008 : 10:43:59 AM
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Hi Jill,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Jim but I have to tell you reading this thread highlights my beef with the advaitists, always sound like scolding. I have this same beef with all spiritual teachers who scold. Scolding only makes me want to avoid all things so-called spiritual.
I'm confused now... who was scolding who?
Christi |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2008 : 11:29:40 AM
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I think she's saying that Advaitans in general sound scoldy, and that I'm doing likewise.
The following might sound particularly scoldy, for those who realize I'm saying it with a goofy grin (it's notoriously hard to convey such sentiment online, but, fwiw, I never say "dude" with a completely straight face):
quote:
Surrender only comes after a battle...and thank goodness, we do lose in the end! It's good to see the checkmate ahead of time rather than persevere stubbornly till every last piece is gone. Dude, wake up and realize you're LOSING! And it's winner take all...
But regardless of whether I'm scoldy or not, I really think Adyashanti isn't. So I feel bad for misrepresenting his attitude, if that's what happened! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 07 2008 11:31:41 AM |
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Black Rebel Radio
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2008 : 1:22:27 PM
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I thought this was the best part of that article.
Not that they wern't all the best part being one and all.
Saunders: Is that use of humor and play an intentional part of your teachings?
Adyashanti: It’s not intentional. I just see some things as profoundly funny.
Saunders: So it emerges more from your personality.
Adyashanti: Yeah, that’s more it, although I think it’s part and parcel of being awake that you don’t take things too seriously. The thing you probably take the least seriously is yourself. I’ve heard enlightenment described as the “restoration of cosmic humor.” I think that’s a wonderful description. If you think you’re awake, but you don’t have a sense of humor, you’re probably not as awake as you imagine yourself to be. Humor comes with the knowledge that all is well. |
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Adyashanti Interview in The Sun
