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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 19 2008 : 1:20:35 PM
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What does anyone here think about atheism? Is it a valid approach? Is the slant on skepticism by atheists also valid? Is AYP meant to turn atheists into theists by meditation?
"You might be an atheist in the beginning, but you will be a believer in God at the end" etc etc - is this what AYP aims towards?
Comments welcome.      |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2008 : 2:21:17 PM
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I think AYP is about experiencing for yourself what beliefs and thinking have a hard time answering.
As an example - if someone tells you about the Himalayas, and that they exist...believing in their existence and thinking about the ways they exist do little for you, compared to actually going there and seeing them. It's not that practicing AYP makes us non-thinkers..it's that you can't figure everything out by thinking. Some things need to be experienced, and then perhaps thought about after the fact.
So AYP is about taking what's written about yoga, and perhaps other religious systems, and finding out the truth behind the words, for yourself!
Atheism - I think atheism is too quick of a judgement. This is me logically speaking, and this doesn't have to do with my yogic practices: most of us (all of us?) have no idea whether God exists or doesn't exist. We don't know his true attributes in experience. As a matter of fact, people sometimes debate whether God is a he or she, or maybe even neither.
So it's safe to presume that we know nothing about God, beyond what's written and talked about sometimes.
Now, what does it mean to 'believe' in something we know very little about? Maybe, for most, it means to have faith that there's someone overlooking their lives? Or just a hope that there's something great and compassionate out there, for some? I think many people feel that they need to believe in this God which they know nothing of, because other people have felt the need. Pack mentality. Wars have been fought over this, and countless lives have been sacrificed...for God? Perhaps not...maybe it was for the people who were infected with this disease of making others say and think that they believe in something that they know nothing about...
So, without this compulsive need to belong to a group (either believer or non-believer), we are free to explore more of what God is described to be in scriptures, and if that description exists in reality (or at least in our experience).
Now - to the root of why atheism is invalid. When we're exploring this, and we come up with NO proof for the existence of God, it's still not safe to say that God doesn't exist. Because we are limited to what our minds can observe, and that's limited by what our bodies can observe. That's further limited by things like, how far we've advanced in space travel, etc...if God were to exist somewhere in the physical realm. Furthermore, even if we could reach the "end of the universe" we still would need to be able to see from a spiritual plane, to be able to tell whether God exists or not, because he may be on that plane. So we cannot know whether God exists or not, because we're incapable of providing the evidence for or against his existence, due to who we are. So...
Absence of proof of God is not proof of God's absence.
If you don't believe in God, then it's better to call yourself agnostic...or maybe just call yourself nothing.
I don't think AYP means to turn anyone into a believer. It's not a religious system, where a requirement is belief in God. It's an applied system, so that you find out for yourself the truth about our lives. If you're interested in it, just do the practices and see what happens, without any beliefs. That's what I do. Then maybe you will find God, and be able to understand better what's written about in scriptures, or maybe you won't find God at all.
By the way, this has nothing to do with logic or with my practices - but I do believe in God and pray. Yes, believe. Just as I've never actually been to the Himalayas, but I still believe they exist. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2008 : 10:08:53 PM
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What does anyone here think about atheism? Is it a valid approach? Is the slant on skepticism by atheists also valid? Is AYP meant to turn atheists into theists by meditation?
You know, some people would classify me as an atheist, others wouldn't. I don't care. There are so many shades in what a person can believe in that the atheist versus believer-in-god dichotomy just isn't necessarily that helpful. The way they classify me says where their definitions lie -- or what they are picking up from what I say. It says as much about them as it says about me.
People make a big fuss about the belief-level commitments of their surface minds. The big fuss is often ultimately a political matter when you probe it more deeply. People want to know what religious-political tribe to place you in. But maybe you don't belong in any tribe, nor indeed do you belong outside them all. You are what you are. Your religious commitments and beliefs reflect some changing things about your thought processes. It's not ultimate reflection whatsoever on what you ulimately are. That, what you ultimately are, cannot ever be changed. It isn't subject to the classification of believer or non-believer.
In any case, no, AYP isn't meant to turn atheists into theists, nor vice-versa. But deep yoga can bring a person in contact with what they are.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 19 2008 10:09:09 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2008 : 10:42:21 PM
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There is no need to prove God doesn't exist to be an atheist. They just have to BELIEVE God doesn't exist. And although I have a close relationship with God, I can't blame atheists for not believing in him. All I have to do is look at how evangelists describe God as they try to convert you, and I don't believe in "God" either.
The whole problem is in trying to condense a concept as large as "God" into a word. I've seen several aspects of God at different times; his creative aspect, his beauty aspect, his silent aspect, his destructive aspect, and those things just don't easily fit into one word. How can you reconcile the love for a helpless baby with killing of a thousand people in one huge disaster? That's why some religions picture God as multiple Gods with different aspects.
i believe some people are atheists out of distaste for evangelism. They may think "If God is love, but he is vengeful, angry, and jealous, and would send me to eternal pain and torture for not accepting his word, then I don't believe in God."
Well, I don't believe in that God either, so people may call me an atheist.
I think it is possible for an atheist to become fully enlightened and still not believe in God. Someone else might look at them radiating love, and say they surely ARE connected to God. But the words that person uses to describe things would not include the word God. And since God is limitless, how can one limit him to a word?
Many Buddhists don't believe in "God", but instead they believe in the silence; the void. and yet they learn to trust in the universal power that sends them blessings when they let go of their ego. This is what AYP can teach and atheist, and no "conversion" is necessary. |
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2008 : 02:17:45 AM
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The word atheist is probably just as misunderstood and misused as the word Christian, in my opinion. The attitudes/beliefs of atheists seem to really be an individual matter. Some are simply skeptical of the existence of God, while others are downright hostile. Some are open minded and will accept the possibility of God, while others will deny the possibility even if somehow proven otherwise.
I don't see how the existence of God can truly be proved or disproved. I respect and support every person's right to believe or disbelieve whatever they choose to.
Personally, I find atheism distasteful. Many years ago, when I considered myself an atheist, I tried to read Atheism: The Case Against God. I found it dry, boring, too cerebral, and I stopped reading it about 20 pages in. Not because I disagreed or was offended, but because I lost interest and couldn't keep my attention.
Having conversed with a few atheists, it seems the ones I've talked to are not really hostile towards God/Christ, but towards organized religion and its adherents. Their displeasure with the dogma and hypocrisy of some religious followers/organizations is completely valid, in my opinion.
To me, vehemently denying the possibility of God is just as closed minded and extreme as wanting a holy war.
Regarding AYP, I think it aims towards Truth. That's something nobody has a monopoly on. Not atheists, not Christians, not Buddhists, not scientists. Not even yogis 
Will AYP make atheists into believers? It just might make believers into atheists 
Peace
cosmic |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2008 : 12:06:46 AM
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If you are skeptical of the existence of God, or are open minded and accept the possibility of God, you are not really an Atheist. That's more of an agnostic.
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The existence of God can easily be proved; but only to yourself, not anyone else!
This kind of proof is of course not valid to the scientific community.
They have kind of a good old boy network going.
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I have that same displeasure with organized religion, dogma, and hypocrisy. Actually I think any religion is good that brings people together to concentrate on their highest ideals.
It's only when they practice their hundreds of ways of excluding others that i don't like it.
There are many flavors of being without God. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2008 : 06:41:18 AM
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I am usually itching to know when people talk about God, Just what God are you talking about? Tell me your concept of God and then I will tell you if I believe in that God or not.
I think alot of people haven't thought about it that much and just toss the word around.
But if you ask them in return, when they ask you if you believe in God, what God are you referring to or what is your concept of God, they have to stop and think about it.
I don't think that is true of the people on this site, but alot of people are this way, I think.
Do I believe in God sitting up in heaven with a flowing white beard and robes? Is that what you are referring to? No, I don't believe in God.
I think, to put it in AYP terms, as your inner silence increases, so does your understanding of God.
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2008 : 07:02:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
If you are skeptical of the existence of God, or are open minded and accept the possibility of God, you are not really an Atheist. That's more of an agnostic.
True, true. Your distinction is accurate, Ether.
One of the beauties of Yoga is that all are welcome and included. There's really no restriction on who can practice (besides self-imposed ones).
The only thing one must believe is that Yoga has some benefit.
Blessings |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2008 : 9:56:03 PM
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| You don't even need that belief; only the belief that it might be possible that yoga might have some benefit, and curiousity to find out. Of course, the experiment to find out must be prolonged. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 03 2008 9:56:37 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 08:11:37 AM
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I wrote above about people whom you would swear are connected with God, but they don't use those words.
Here are lyrics to a song by Bjork, a prolific singer/songwriter who comes from Iceland. There is a rich tradition in Iceland of both Norse Paganism (and there are hints in her other works of this), and also Inuit beliefs. You can hear this on Youtube (by searching "Bjork Passion/reason"), but it ends in an uncomfortable dissonant fanfare as she mentions war at the end. The first 3/4 of it is incredibly beautiful as she sings this:
See how she doesn't mention God here:
Mouth's Cradle by Bjork
There is yet another one
That follows me
Where ever I go
And supports me
This tooth is warmth-like
And these teeth are a ladder up to his mouth
These teeth are a ladder that I walk
That you can walk too if you want
If you want up to the mouth
The mouth's cradle
Up to the mouth's cradle
He always has a hope for me
Always sees me when nothing else
And everyone have left
That ghost is brighter than anyone
And fulfils me with hope
And you can use these teeth as a ladder
Up to the mouth's cradle, the mouth's cradle
And you can follow these notes i'm singing
Up to the mouth's cradle, the mouth's cradle
The simplicity of the ghost-like beast
The purity of what it wants and where it goes
Always love, always loves you, always loves you
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Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 12 2008 7:15:10 PM |
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Black Rebel Radio
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 08:28:56 AM
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Man, so cool...I was just thinking of Bjork's lyric..."All Is Full Of Love" a few minutes ago....Her music definitely comes from that unfiltered and unlayered place.
Peace
Mac |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 7:47:05 PM
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She's definitely inspired. A lot of her words don't look very beautiful on paper, but when she sings them, they fit beautifully with the music. This leads me to believe there is a synergy between the words and music, one of the marks of inspired works.
Yes "All is Full of Love", another incredibly beautiful song, Once again not mentioning God by name. And "Triumph of a heart", how a heart triumphs that gives all, Done all in icelandic voices, it's funny, beautiful, weird, and cryptic at the same time.
She tires of her boyfriend, goes out on the town, falls back in love with him, and he is played by a cat! It is a play on a dark Norse legend where a guy is married to a cat and he is a deadbeat. it is a somewhat disturbing tale to icelandic people, but she lightens it up with her version so it is not disturbing.
I love the way she insinuates God in her music. It's beautiful and somewhat dark because you realize that her concept of God is different than our western concept, and yet it seems to be the same God.
For instance in "Mouth's Cradle" in my post above, she refers to God as a "ghost-like beast", and hints that he is not the only one, which would anger a lot of christians. They would say she is not talking about God. but if you read the rest of the lyrics, she certainly is, in my opinion. I think it is quite possible to perceive God as multiple entities, and perhaps as an animal representing love also. I don't think it is necessary to force people to perceive God in only one "correct" form. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 8:14:21 PM
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I agree, Etherfish, I thought the words were deep/full of meaning and definitely can see God in the beauty of the song.
Here's my current perception of God that I would like to share, relating to my personal experience of faith, as described by Rumi. And it's not one that people would normally associate with God either:
The Lion who Hunted with the Wolf and the Fox
A lion took a wolf and a fox with him on a hunting excursion, and succeeded in catching a wild ox, an ibex, and a hare. He then directed the wolf to divide the prey. The wolf proposed to award the ox to the lion, the ibex to himself, and the hare to the fox. The lion was enraged with the wolf because he had presumed to talk of "I" and "Thou," and "My share" and "Thy share" when it all belonged of right to the lion, and he slew the wolf with one blow of his paw. Then, turning to the fox, he ordered him to make the division. The fox, rendered wary by the fate of the wolf, replied that the whole should be the portion of the lion. The lion, pleased with his self abnegation, gave it all up to him, saying, "Thou art no longer a fox, but myself.
http://muslim-canada.org/sufi/book1....htm#story11
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 13 2008 02:17:59 AM |
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2008 : 09:03:28 AM
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Very beautiful, Ether. I feel the same way about Don't Forget Me by Red Hot Chili Peppers (which I've posted before somewhere). There is no mention of God at all, but the lyrics are deep and have spiritual implications.
Enjoy:
I'm an ocean in your bedroom
Make you feel warm
Make you wanna re-assume
Now we know it all for sure
I'm a dance hall dirty breakbeat
Make the snow fall up from underneath your feet
Not alone, I'll be there
Tell me when you want to go
I'm a meth lab first rehab
Take it all off
And step inside the running cab
There's a love that knows the way
I'm the rainbow in your jail cell
All the memories of everything you've ever smelled
Not alone, I'll be there
Tell me when you want to go
(Sideways falling
More will be revealed my friend)
Ooooh...
Don't forget me I can't hide it
Come again get me excited
I'm an inbred and a pothead
Two legs that you spread
Inside the tool shed
Now we know it all for sure
I could show you
To the free field overcome and more will always be revealed
Not alone I'll be there
Tell me when you want to go
(Sideways falling
More will be revealed my friend)
Oooh...
Don't forget me I can't hide it
Come again make me excited
Ooooh...
(Sideways falling
More will be revealed my friend)
Don't forget me I can't hide it
There's a match now let me light it
I'm the bloodstain
On your shirt sleeve
Coming down and more are coming to believe
Now we know it all for sure
Make the hair stand
Up on your arm
Teach you how to dance
Inside the funny farm
Not alone, I'll be there
Tell me when you want to go
I'll be there and tell me when you want to go
Come on then and tell me when you want to go
More will be revealed my friend |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2008 : 08:20:06 AM
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Vil, interesting metaphor. At first distasteful, but I can see where it comes from. seems like quite a cynical view of
god, but that's definitely a valid view from the ego's point of view. i have heard people complain who don't wish to dedicate themselves to practices. They speak of how cruel God is to force them to do things his way. Then they talk and talk about how
things should be and philosophize and get nowhere. . . . |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 14 2008 9:02:19 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2008 : 04:18:26 AM
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quote:
Vil, interesting metaphor. At first distasteful, but I can see where it comes from. seems like quite a cynical view of
god, but that's definitely a valid view from the ego's point of view. i have heard people complain who don't wish to dedicate themselves to practices. They speak of how cruel God is to force them to do things his way. Then they talk and talk about how
things should be and philosophize and get nowhere. . . .
Yes.
Rumi's eulogy to the ego is analogous of both spiritual process and progress. We were discussing this difference within another thread:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=3#30008
This same process Krishnamurti likened to, 'throwing flowers at a stick', since he didn't believe that most minds were developed enough to rationalize spiritual experience and further progress technique to perceive the flowers. He mentioned mantra in the sense of using a word which produces a conditioned response or mental hypnosis. Which is true if we do this without bothering to question subsequent experience or tradition.
Krishnamurti and Mahari Mahesh Yogi both meditated and were realized. The thing that separated (in a sense) the two was that Mahri Mahesh Yogi had faith that the west was able to process spiritual experience judging by outward material advancement. The mind could handle it, since the mind produced so many other wonderful things and could separate one thing from the next. Whereas Krishnamurti didn't believe that most were able to conceptualize spiritual experience judging by conditioned response to this same thing. Some minds were unable to handle it, due to material attachment to these very same things.
There really is no difference. It's difficult to put into words, though, since one mind will automatically equate a word with one thing and another will take the same word and equate it with something else. Like if I said, "Fear God!" LOL. Someone may automatically equate the term "fear" with what was taught to them by religion or parent or teacher, although it can also mean something entirely different. The reason that Christ said to Peter, 'Get behind me Satan!'. LOL. If He lived today he probably would have said, 'Get behind me Ego! Or 'Let go of my Eggo! I meant, Ego. LOL.'.
Christ knew that Peter held a conditioned response to the word Satan, Christ calling him that automatically caused Peter to uproot his preconceived notion of what Satan was, and was not, since he knew that he wasn't Satan literally or some benign entity out there. The same applies to God. How can we know God if we don't uproot our conditioned response to what was taught to us concerning God, as you are aware.
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 15 2008 05:30:14 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2008 : 08:44:08 AM
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"How can we know God if we don't uproot our conditioned response to what was taught to us concerning God, as you are aware."
Interesting. I hadn't heard it put that way before.
Funny about the two yogis and their concept of the west vs east. You would think they would know that people in the wast and east are not that different except for the lessons they need to learn in this life. So this accounts for the seemingly vast differences in spirituality. But just because people in the east outwardly may seem so much more spiritual, it doesn't mean they are. however, i believe they are more likely to spend more time thinking about spirituality, which gives them an edge.
But what I have become quite aware of in my own life is that thinking about spirituality can be just as distracting as thinking about anything else. The only thing it's good for is reminding you where to keep your focus. but these thoughts can just as easily become illusory without your knowledge as any other thoughts. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 15 2008 08:45:09 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2008 : 3:47:14 PM
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quote:
Etherfish: "How can we know God if we don't uproot our conditioned response to what was taught to us concerning God, as you are aware."
Interesting. I hadn't heard it put that way before.
Me ether. Well, I knew it, but didn't know it, at the time, since it came to mind while posting. When I thought about it, after, it was something that I had previous learned through Sufism and applied it in a way that was practical. The same goes with mentioning the Universal Mind, which is a concept taught by Baha'u'llah.
It was utilizing an automatic thought process held in my subconscious memory that surfaced without thinking about it. Again, it was utilizing an already learned teaching from another spiritual tradition and applying it in a practical way. We all do this whether conscious or unconscious of the origin.
This is what yogani has done with AYP to make it practical to the masses. He is utilizing previous learned teachings and making them user friendly and is progressing the mind this way. The same thing Manimahesh Yogi did. They are both examples of true altruism and philanthropy, since what good is talking about anything if we can't make it accessible to another person whether it's via the mind or practice?
Anyway, that's what inspiration is, utilizing other people's learned teachings whether we are consciously aware of the origin. Since we don't know how we know all that we do, since more than often than not it's not something that I read about or was learned, not in this lifetime - if we choose to look at it that way. It just comes from the UNKNOWN: LOLOLOL. do do do do...
But it's only the unknown in capital letters when we don't know the mechanics behind the process. That is the origin of fear. Not knowing a thing, since when we do know something, it becomes small case letters, because we no longer fear it. That's why it's important to question everything and demystify and uproot superstitious belief systems. And why it's equally important to learn from other spiritual traditions along with practice and meditation. All work together to rid ourselves of fear and bring us closer to ourselves.
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 15 2008 3:56:03 PM |
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Atheism
