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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 20 2007 : 2:28:05 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 04:06:00 AM
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Hi All,
This is funny.... Amma performed this mirracle years ago at a time when she was under a lot of pressure from local priests in Kerala. They thought that she should not have been giving darshan, and were angry with her for taking away members of their congregations. She performed the mirracle of turning water into piasum (a kind of sweet milk drink) in order to silence them. Afterwards she said that she would never perform another mirracle, presumably because she wanted to attract people who were interested in the spiritual path, not just mirracles.
Now this video is on youtube and is being watched by thousands of people, so I guess it has backfired on her. She did admit a few years ago that she wasn't able to see everything that would happen in the future!
Jai Ma
Christi |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 08:52:00 AM
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I don't think Amma performed a miracle there, gumpi. The whole thing looks so staged in so many ways. Do you really think that's a miracle?
India has a long history of thousands upon thousands of little religious groups, and there's a big tradition of little magic tricks (sometimes extraordianarily mundane and easy-to-do) being used being used to promote belief in a religious figure. This kind of stuff is so ingrained in India, and the yoga we do so connected to Indian tradition, that many people think that this stuff has a lot to do with yoga and spirituality. I would say it doesn't have much to do with either, though it certainly has a lot to do with Indian religion.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 23 2007 09:18:33 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 09:56:32 AM
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| I didn't see her performing a miracle in this video either. The actual transformation into milk was not shown. Rather, it sounds like she might have done that miracle at some time (who knows?), then they have made a drama documentary playing it all up again in order to do this video... God knows why Amma would to that?! |
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tallis
Hungary
71 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 10:52:03 AM
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Is this going to turn into a thread like 'Buddha Boy'?
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3167
Is it a miracle or isn't?
Is this person for real or are they a fraudster?
We can argue about it forever if we like.
In my opinion these discussions say more about the people writing them than the person at the centre of the discussion itself... |
Edited by - tallis on Dec 23 2007 10:58:01 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 11:46:36 AM
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This is only one of hundreds upon hundreds of miracles Amma has done. It is easy to see how a sceptic would conclude from this video that there was nothing to it because of the poor editing etc.
I am firmly convinced that Amma is an Avatar. David, have you read any of the Amma books? I get the impression from reading your posts that you are an anti-guru type of person. It's your journey but i don't think your scepticism is warranted. All i can say to you is read her books then make up your mind.
No matter how much anti-guru ramblings i hear i will never ever accept it for a genuine proven saint. Besides, David, do you do samayama? If so, demonstrate a miracle yourself. Why should i listen to anti-guru nonsense from someone that cannot do a miracle themselves?
I noticed you also had some beef with Paramahansa Yogananda, saying that he taught that strenuous breathing exercises were harmful. In point of fact he said no such thing. What he did say has to be taken in context and not nit-picking a few sentences here and there to make some type of point. He said that long periods of breath retention can be harmful. In his Lessons he teaches breath retention but it is not holding the breath for extended periods of time.
Some people are born already very advanced so they do not need a guru. Most people do need a guru, but once they advance more the guru becomes the inner guru. So to say that a guru is not necessary is very ignorant. Not even Yogani says this. Maybe you do not need a guru? But if so i don't think it is right for you to parade around saying other people don't either. On the basis of the original video i posted you have decided to conclude that it was just some type of petty magic trick but i have decided it is a real miracle. How can we come to two different conclusions based on the same video? I used to be very sceptical indeed; i know about magic too. I am not indiscriminate. I am not a fool. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 12:35:20 PM
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gumpi said:
I noticed you also had some beef with Paramahansa Yogananda, saying that he taught that strenuous breathing exercises were harmful.
No, gumpi that wasn't me --- unless I am having a very strange case of amnesia. I never remember even thinking that Paramhansa Yogananda taught strenuous breathing exercises that were harmful.
I'm not anti-guru per se. But I do have serious questions about the wisdom and purity of the 'Siddha Tradition' in yoga -- it's a sort of tunnel from Yoga into Occult and Religion and it can be hard to separate one from the other.
Your opinion that the video shows Amma performing a miracle and mine that it does not can peacefully co-exist here. I believe the video shows a human religious phenomenon, the kind of thing that is happening all over the world all the time, a naturalistic phenomenonon, not a divine one, and not a particularly Yogic one. We have to get used to people not believing what we do without getting hostile or overly cranky. You say what you believe and I'll say what I believe.
I think EMC is right -- when I look at it again, it looks like a docu-drama, which might be why it seemed so obviously staged to me. I think that isn't Amma playing Amma, just an actress who looks a little like the younger Amma.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 23 2007 12:52:11 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 12:39:28 PM
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gumpi,
I don't think David is saying that she definitely can't perform miracles, or that she's a bad guru or less than spiritually mastered. He's just making the point that this video doesn't seem very miraculous; that it seems staged, that the so-called miracle is not even shown (per EMC), and that there is a long-standing tradition in India of using staged magical tricks to demonstrate a guru's potency, which has applied (for reasons that are hard to fathom) to both revered masters and to absolute shysters.
None of those points is anti-guru generally, or anti-Amma specifically, in the least. So I'm not sure why it's necessary to drag this into a much wider argument.
Finally, I respect a lot of the things Amma has said and done. Even if she were able to turn some fluid white, that wouldn't really affect my opinion either way. I don't find that sort of thing very inspiring. But that's just me!
[edit: FWIW, I posted this before seeing David's reply] |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Dec 23 2007 1:27:54 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 12:43:04 PM
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tallis, I understand your point. There's no need to argue over such things, really. I just state what I saw in the video: the miracle, the actual transformation is not shown clearly, at least not to my visual perception.
To me the whole existence is a miracle, and I have come to know that anything is possible, so I don't doubt the Source. I don't find the video is making justice to what was possibly performed, though. It wouldn't convince a sceptic. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 2:18:52 PM
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But I do have serious questions about the wisdom and purity of the 'Siddha Tradition' in yoga -- it's a sort of tunnel from Yoga into Occult and Religion and it can be hard to separate one from the other.
Dear David
Maybe your experience has been this way but having been on the siddha path for 5 yrs I have not seen anything to suggest this,the contrary if anything.In fact both my teacher and sadguru are quite specific in simply doing the practices and the path to God.Siddhis are not to be sought or of consequence, in fact they are simply scenery and restrictions on the path.Perhaps I have misunderstood your comments.
L&L
Dave
p.s I am going back to India on Jan 8th 2008 for another jamboree. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 2:40:19 PM
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Dave,
Yes, I've no doubt at all that people work within these beliefs and do no harm. My concerns are about the general effect of the beliefs, spiritually and otherwise, on the culture as a whole. But enough about that from me for now.
-D |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 3:40:26 PM
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David, i apologise if i sounded rude to you. It was not my intention to sound that way. And i am apologising because when i clicked back onto the Youtube video, and i clicked on "all comments" i discovered that someone had wrote that this film is actually an actual film and not the real Amma event! So this seems staged because it is!
Hehe.
Personally, after reading Amma's words, i am completely awestruck that this woman had no education beyond the fourth grade of school. She is just like Anandamoyi ma. Uneducated but talks like a scripture!
I want to relate an experience i had just two days ago. Last week i decided to read Amma's book that i bought a few years ago again. I did it because on a web forum i frequent somebody said that they met Amma. Because i usually read the same books (and i have quite a few) i decided to read the Amma one again. And i was completely dumbstruck by her wisdom. So i looked her up on Youtube, and there you go, a miracle video.
So 2 days ago i went into London town centre. There is a shop there called Watkins which is the oldest esoteric bookshop in the whole world. A little bit of a "famous" place. And i looked around for Amma books but couldn't find any. So i asked a guy at the desk if there were any Amma books and he said no. They had none in stock. So i walked around London going into different book shops, looking and asking, and there were no Amma books anywhere. Dejected, i walked back but i decided to stop off at Watkins again to see if i could get any more books for Christmas. When i got there, i noticed boxes outside the shop with cheap books in them. So i looked through them from left to right and right on the end,there was a box full of Amma books! and they were only £2 each!
I get a lot of synchronicities in my life like this. I just wondered if this woman Amma might be my guru in actuality because of a dream i had once. I find her teachings reasonate with me perfectly. I wish you could get around to reading the books sometime. None of them are online in e-book format.
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 5:51:22 PM
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It's interesting how the video turned out to be staged, but it's good to see everyone bringing their opinions and difference of opinions with respect and clarity.
And thank you gumpi for bringing Amma into discussion. You said that she doesn't have any material online, so I'll hit the Edgar Cayce library to see if they have any copies. If not, I'll keep an eye open in the book stores. You guys have peaked my interest!
Cheers All |
Edited by - Kyman on Dec 23 2007 5:53:45 PM |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2007 : 10:09:20 PM
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That person is not Amma, but an actor. So ofcourse it is staged -- it is a reproduction of what happened. And if it really happened is up to everyone to believe or not.
Even without looking at the thread I can already tell who the usual sceptics and believers will be, hahaha. But its easy to be a sceptic, it is much harder to believe that we are capable of anything, and even harder to live that life to realize it.
In those youtube videos I have seen Amma melt many hearts so it is really not hard for me to believe that She turned water into milk just as it is easy for me to believe that Jesus turned water into wine. Merry Christmas! |
Edited by - Chiron on Dec 23 2007 11:07:20 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2007 : 12:37:28 AM
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| Despite whatever I believe or not, I would like to drink that milk. Looks tasty. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2007 : 07:38:25 AM
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quote:
Chiron said: In those youtube videos I have seen Amma melt many hearts so it is really not hard for me to believe that She turned water into milk just as it is easy for me to believe that Jesus turned water into wine. Merry Christmas!
This is it for me too Chiron.
I was fortunate to see her in Dublin recently. I was totally captivated just looking at her, in particular when she was receiving people for a hug.
The love and compassion she shows to everyone she meets does literely melt the heart. Hundreds of people were just sitting there watching her. The atmosphere was beautiful, despite thousands of people being there, I didn't hear a cross word spoken in the day and a half spent there.
Amazing too for me, was that she would be receiving people for hours and hours. We would go off for a meal and come back, she would still be hugging people four or six hours later. Even so she never seemed to show the slightest sign of tirdness and her love and compassion for each individual never seemed to diminish as time went on - quite amazing to watch.
On the second day I left at four in the morning, she had been hugging for about seven hours. Apparently she went on untill eight in the morning.
Apparently our numbers in Dublin were relatively small. In India, I was told there could be twenty times the number and she would keep going untill everyone was done.
She had no guru herself, she refers to her mother as her guru because she was so strict with her, and didn't treat her too well by all accounts.
For me, the guru thing makes no difference, the miricles make no difference, it was my direct experience with her that melted something in me, and continues to do so, I am very grateful for that.
Grateful too of course, for AYP and all the beautiful souls here, for softening me up enough to be able to experience Amma like that
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Edited by - Sparkle on Dec 24 2007 07:44:06 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2007 : 10:03:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Despite whatever I believe or not, I would like to drink that milk. Looks tasty.
Ha, yes it does! I have a friend who can turn dried out bits of rice and beans and a few bulbs that grow in the earth into something profoundly delicious. And I quite earnestly deem that a miracle from God. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 25 2007 : 03:48:07 AM
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Hi all,
I just got to watch this video, and yes it is a re-enactment, and the lady in it is not Amma. It is a classic kind of Indian "religious street drama" thing.
quote:
Chiron wrote:
But its easy to be a sceptic, it is much harder to believe that we are capable of anything, and even harder to live that life to realize it.
Beautifully writen Chiron!
We'll probably never know if this event ever really took place.
Interestingly, after this happened and Amma said that she would not perform any more mirracles, a lepper came to her. He was covered in open wounds dripping puss, caused by the leprosy. Amma sucked the puss from his wounds and licked them clean. He came back every day to the ashram and she did the same thing until he was healed. At one point some of the devotees asked her to stop as it was so disgusting to watch, but she wouldn't listen and carried on until he was healed. The man is called Datu, and I met him about 12 years ago, in the village in India where the mirracle of the water and milk took place. Now you would hardly know that he ever had leprosy.
Didn't Jesus heal a lepper too? Kind of an appropriate story for Christmas Day!
Merry Christmas
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 25 2007 06:29:59 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2007 : 12:39:03 PM
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"At one point some of the devotees asked her to stop as it was so disgusting to watch, but she wouldn't listen and carried on until he was healed."
Ha ha. That's a good reason for her to continue with it.
And tell the devotees "It's not all about you." |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2007 : 03:31:17 AM
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Hi Etherfish
quote:
"At one point some of the devotees asked her to stop as it was so disgusting to watch, but she wouldn't listen and carried on until he was healed."
Ha ha. That's a good reason for her to continue with it.
And tell the devotees "It's not all about you."
Too true! Another question it raises is: why didn't these devotees just go somewhere else if they found it too digusting to watch... why did they have to stand there? I think this has more to do with the politics surrounding a spiritual teacher. Basically, lots of people had started coming to see Amma every day even at that time, and I think some of the people around her thought that it would put people off coming, and so they would miss out on the chance to meet a divine person in this lifetime. I think they thought that giving thousands of people that opportunity was more important than one healing.
But who knows... maybe they were just squeemish, but couldn't bear not to watch! How many times has that happened to me.
Christi |
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Amma performs a miracle
