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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 18 2005 : 11:08:55 PM
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I've been struggling a little to reconcile the central credo of AYP (the more you open and purify, the more in touch you become with your own divinity until, finally, when you've opened everything else and cleaned out every speck of karma, you open your crown chakra and take your enlightenment) with the credo of advaita (and also Zen, etc), which says not to work on anything, not to embark on any path, but to simply remove yourself from the delusion right now and be one with the divinity you are anyway.
Yogani has speculated that those able to reach spontaneous enlightenment without practices (e.g. Krishnamurthi) have been prepared via countless previous lifetimes of purification and opening. In other words, their practice has already been done. That makes sense...to a point.
I'm absolutely convinced that AYP is a brilliant and efficacious method to purify the nadis and open the body to divine energy, and I've decided that those are good things to do. For right now and my forseeable future, I'm hooked. AYP feels great and is utterly transformative and I find that it reduces attachments and makes me better exemplify the qualities I'd previously merely pondered intellectually. But as I practice AYP, I'm also hedging my bets by reading plenty of advaita to edge myself out of dualism. Here's a great, clear, simple, modern, no b.s. rendering of the gist of Advaita (by an Australian teacher who's sort of the Yogani of Advaita). Check it out, it's pretty powerful stuff: http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7/intro.html
But what I dont' understand is the end game. I can't reconcile great sages telling us to merely drop illusion with other great sages telling us to practice, practice, practice. I've been stumped, but tonight I came upon some thoughts from someone respected by Yogani and who's firmly of the "practice, practice, practice" camp, which shows a rare middle-ish point of view: if you clean a decent sized spot on your muddy windsheild you can jump through to full realization, and do the final bit of clean-up later (note that he suggests doing an awful lot of work to clean off that spot, though!!).
The following appears at http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-31737.htm
a site which (among other good things) includes an extraordinarily useful tutorial on Patanjali's sutras. Take it away, Swami Jnaneshvara:
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There is a myth circulating that to experience the truth you must first be completely, 100% purified, and that is simply not true. First seek the direct experience of the top of the spiritual mountain, and then learn to purify the subtler aspects.
The later housecleaning: Surely there is stabilizing and purifying needed to attain that direct experience, but the final house cleaning is pursued after that realization. For some comfort in this, note that sutra 4.27-4.28 gives instructions on dealing with breaches in enlightenment. It means that one is not expected to have completed the process of purifying karma before realization of the highest, and that is good news for aspirants. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 18 2005 11:11:22 PM |
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Shakti
Germany
1 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2005 : 12:18:19 PM
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Hi Jim, I am going to start at the end of your message or thoughts You might think that I am a bit strict, but I believe that one should have a good foundation in whatever one does. More so for those following a spritural path with the reward at the end "Enlightenment". Since there are so many ways to Rome, one should go the way that is most suitable for himself. Some prefer to fly, others go bye car, and some with the train. You can use a very discipline way or look for shortcuts. But what is most important is that one has a foundation to call up on when things get a little out of hand. I am sure that being a 100% purified is the best way. Look if your are partly purified then you are still with enought ego to keep out of balance. It is like having a half baked cake. Who will eat it. Surely not I. Of course one can get a wisp of the prize when one is not 100% purified, it is like a preview of what is to come. I think that if one is over anxious in this one will lose in the end. Take for example of persons who have aroused their Kundalini energies and not being 100% "Purified". I need not say more about that I am sure. Now I will contratict myself, enlightenment can come at anytime, and this I believe being or not being purified, but like a dear friend of mine told me shortly before he left his body. "We are enlightened we just do not know it!!!" Mind keeps us from the ultimate goal. And once we can get that in our grasps, I love this our "Monkey Brains". Then enlightenment would not be anything to aim at because we would be IT.
I had to laugh about the muddy windsheild etc. Yes, sometimes that spot could be hard to get clean, especially if one is caring it around for lifetime after lifetime. Like accumilated bad habits not easy to clean off.
Khadija |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2005 : 12:52:09 PM
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Hello Khadiha,
I think you are misunderstanding Jim if you think he is weakening the idea that 'one should have a good foundation in whatever one does'.
Everything he said is completely consistent with that.
-David
quote:
Originally posted by Shakti
Hi Jim, I am going to start at the end of your message or thoughts You might think that I am a bit strict, but I believe that one should have a good foundation in whatever one does. Khadija
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2005 : 7:35:26 PM
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I think they are both valid paths, and there are hundreds more. You just need to pick the path that feels right for you and follow it. My sister used to be a Vedanta nun and now is totally into Zen. They are one of those paths that claim nothing is necessary, and there is no enlightenment, and just the present moment. They say everthing is a process, not a "thing". She says there is no "Jim", but just a process of "Jim-ing". She mentioned a new book coming out by a zen master. i asked how he could write a book without using any nouns?
She said he would write about processes and practices. She goes to these weekend seshins where they sit for ten hours at a time sometimes. Sometimes they chant the 112 ways. They have a lot of Zen koans and complicated word stuff. It would drive me crazy. it makes me just want to shut off my thoughts and enjoy silence. She says it is for people who are full of words and can't shut off their thoughts.
So I think it's about style. if you are perfectly happy with your life the way it is, and have no goals for change, then don't try any practices; just live your life. If you can practice nothing and jump to enlightenment, do it. i think you'll find people on that path are still practicing something. If anyone knows people who are lining up at a magic wormhole and jumping to enlightenment, correct me.
but I love my path and love how our practices make me feel.
They make me feel like I'm contented and don't need anything, and everything is OK, and there's no rush to attain something. But I have to meditate twice a day to stay there.
Etherfish |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 10:50:38 AM
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Wow, I feel like I wrote that a million years ago (thank goodness for AYP!). Great reply, thanks!
To update, I"m working on all these fronts. AYP as my (twice) daily constitutional (like showering and tooth brushing), Iyengar yoga for asana (to keep healthy and to stay grounded in physical realm), and reading advaita/vedanta to open up my mind. Also following Ramana Maharshi's injunction to either seek the self or to surrender (I'm doing both). I do take seriously the warning that by digging multiple holes, no one hole gets very deep. But I find that this particular package helps me dig a single deeper hole. Works for me, anyway.
I agree about different strokes for different folks, and that a lot of the decision is based on style.
They make me feel like I'm contented and don't need anything, and everything is OK, and there's no rush to attain something
Sounds almost perfect to me. Can you come to substitute "need" for "rush"? |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Nov 07 2005 10:51:42 AM |
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Adam West
23 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 11:12:39 AM
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Hi all,
It is an interesting question, the 'enlightenment verses nothing to get' debate. It is a corollary of the 'to practice, not to practice/meditate' paradox. I think it is pretty clear that there is a difference in one's realisation, one's experience of self and reality, prior to the dawning of what is commonly referred to as enlightenment and after.
It would seem that after one has such a realisation, one then directly perceives that nothing has changed, that I was alway enlightened, hence there was or is no need to meditate and nothing to get. Yet it seems to me that it would be inaccurate to suggest in some form or another nothing is different. The precise nature of the change is open to speculation perhaps just cognitive, a shift in point of view. Perhaps it is much more profound than this, that one's entire cognitive structure has been transformed, energetically and possibly even manifesting physiologically in the nervous system and atomic structure; perhaps not and anywhere in-between.
UG seemed to go through a profound experience and in my interpretation of what he said, his perception of reality is radically different than what is considered normal. Indeed neurologists and psychiatrists would likely have diagnosed him with some acute psycho-neurological dysfunction. It seems clear to me, there was something different before and after his process. Also it should be known that UG did indeed spend years in meditation of various types and achieved various levels of Samadhi. However it was not until he gave it all up and several years had passed before the realisation of his essential nature burst upon his awareness.
I am no Buddhist, but it seems obvious to me the Buddha had a realisation of something, or did he just give up and say well there is no enlightenment to be had, just live in the now and really experience your life. That is a great insight, one that is nothing more than cognitive and considered desirable for good psychological health ascribed by many psychologists today. It’s not the same thing as what those of us who meditate and feel some kind of intuitive penetration into an ill-defined meta-cognitive state/reality.
The nothing to get argument and no need to practice position, seems to serve a purpose in relaxing into our true nature, in getting out of our own way. Indeed if we are practicing/meditating what we are in fact doing, amongst other things, is creating a space where we suspend our habitual cognitive patterns, thus allowing the realisation of our non-dual nature. In my interpretation the 'no need to practice' position as a path, is in fact a practice; possibly the highest practice. From my perspective, what is operative within the non-dual ‘no practice’ tradition, is the undermining of the social conditioning which supports the patterns of habitual cognition at the very foundation of “I” centred duality consciousness. In this way we can see it is the same process which takes place within meditation.
The no-process / process contradiction, is one of those interesting paradoxes within philosophy, where one could say within the narrow delineation of the facts something has changed at the cognitive/energetic level of the personality. Yet in the broad delineation of the facts, nothing has changed at all, I have always been, eternally unmoved and unchanged, there was nothing to get. So there is no contradiction, rather as philosophers love to point out, merely an equivocation.
In kind regards,
Adam.
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Edited by - Adam West on Nov 07 2005 12:51:01 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2005 : 10:58:35 PM
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>They make me feel like I'm contented and don't need anything, and >everything is OK, and there's no rush to attain something
Sounds almost perfect to me. Can you come to substitute "need" for "rush"?
No I'm not that far along! I guess I could say there's no need in the sense that i have desires to attain things in this state but they have no power over me. It's like deciding which dessert I want rather than which bill to pay.
I agree with you Adam. A lot of it is symantics, and how appropriate for a civilization where people walk around with cell phones stuck to their ear and are rude to people directly in front of them. Meditation helps to turn down that constant grinding out of concepts made of words which are only approximate representations of the world we think we are living in.
Practices we do start out as a part of this world of illusion and can take us beyond it but they will always have a strong foothold in the world of illusion. I think what some people forget is that we belong to this world of illusion in the sense that we have a purpose here and things we need to do while we are here. You might forget everything you learned in school once you get your diploma, but not before.
Etherfish |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2005 : 09:35:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam West
Hi all,
It is an interesting question, the 'enlightenment verses nothing to get' debate. It is a corollary of the 'to practice, not to practice/meditate' paradox.
Good job Adam!
You said well in one page what might easily be said poorly in fifty pages!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 09 2005 09:36:08 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2005 : 11:10:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I guess I could say there's no need in the sense that i have desires to attain things in this state but they have no power over me. It's like deciding which dessert I want rather than which bill to pay.
I have good news for you: that's all you need. The goal isn't to reach a point where you're asked to choose between rice pudding or chocolate pudding and you mush your face forward into both bowls at once because cosmically it just doesn't matter. Preferences are retained. It's just that they no longer enslave. That's the key. That's that whole "attachment" thing.
People have no idea how good it feels to detach...not in the sense of spiritual smugness, but in the sense of inner bliss and the infinite relaxation of dropping all this misery-inducing neediness and fearfulness we carry around with us all the time. I like strawberry shortcake, but I don't "need" to eat it even though it's right in front of me. The world sees ascetic self-denial, but I see nothing but freedom. peace, and hedonistic inner bliss!
Note that the enslaving happens AFTER the perception. The level of raw perception has no judging or grasping in it. Only the mind can judge and grasp, and it happens AFTER; there's a delay because it's all post-processing. The trick is to live at the cutting edge of your immediate perceptions (you're there when vision gets sharp and you feel like you're truly "in the picture"), and use your judging mind as the wonderful gadget it is, to post process and analyze only when you need it. When you don't need it, don't try to shut it off, just let it idle along in neutral gear, with no power to move the car. Spewing a weak and transparent exhaust plume of likes/dislikes, conclusions, observations, et al, like (to mix the metaphor) a chattering crowd in the distance.
For inspiration, read this: http://www.allspirit.co.uk/hsinhsinming.html , and bear in mind that you're not being advised to truly erase all preferences, but, rather, to detach from them. Different thing! I've read of holy men in India who nurse a preference for some brand of tea or something, and play at caring about it - though they'd be completely unaffected if they didn't have it for thirty years. They're not kidding - they do like that brand. But it doesn't matter. And they indulge the preference as a cosmic prank. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Nov 09 2005 11:45:18 AM |
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Adam West
23 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2005 : 8:25:02 PM
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Hi David and Etherfish,
Thanks for your kind words and feed back :-)
In kind regards,
Adam. |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2006 : 11:19:11 AM
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That is why tantra is such a beautiful practice.
Jim, its very unfortunate that our culture encourages sex as a means to an end. People cannot experience the in-joyment of sex without grasping it in some way. Tea can become a vice without mindfulness, so just imagine the trap sex can be for some.
I realized not that long ago that I could probably have some of the best sex on the planet. Or anyone who starts to experience things through the inner body. I guess this is what people percieve when they differentiate between 'making love' and 'having sex'. Our use of words are so telling! Making love, almost like a becoming or being of love unfolding. Having sex, like consuming it, grasping it, attempting to own it. |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2006 : 1:53:24 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~~~
quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
There is a myth circulating that to experience the truth you must first be completely, 100% purified, and that is simply not true.
Hello Jim,
Hope alls well with you...this has been my experience. That is, I have the opportunity to 'see' various aspects of Truth ( some call Ritam or Satyam). From this , I know I am on track as there is a release of delight that comes from the insight. A very subtle but delightful experience. As I read and gain insights there is tight connection between Truth and Delight... I prefer 'delight' vs. bliss cause that is what it 'feels' like to me.
Extra Credit part of the conversation
This Delight is talked about in the Ved and is called soma. Not only does the practitioner ( that would be me) enjoy this delight, but as the Upanishads point out, the higher levels of being and consciousness also partake in this delight.
take care,
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satyan
34 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2006 : 09:06:53 AM
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hi Jim,
just like to add one more point to the discussion. there is no escape from karma even after enlightenment with 100% purification. as long as there is a body there is always karma. like you said there is a detachment after enlightenment and you assume a role for this body as to what it should, like being a normal person and continuing your routine life or teaching what you experienced in your own style .
satyan |
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How Much Purification for Full Enlightenment?
