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 Why am I so afraid?
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anthony574

USA
549 Posts

Posted - Oct 29 2007 :  12:07:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit anthony574's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
I had a bizzare exprience last night. For some background, I have been doing AYP about 7 months and lately I think I am reaching a new level. During meditation I am experiencing intense pain/pleasure, heart sensations, and so forth. Anyway, here's what happened and I was wondering if it has anything to do with yoga.

I know my posts that have drugs mentioned in them often get ignored my the majority of people here and I feel, as they are an important part of my spiritual past, that it is something that alienates most of this community. Regardless of your view on drugs, and whether I never do another entheogen again, my only mushroom experience has warped my spiritual path and effects it to this day no less. It has seemed to engrave in my a fear of existentiality and ego-death. Because it ripped my ego away and left my writhing in hell wanting it back it seems to have reinforced it in the aftershock and now it never seems to want to let go in favor of mystical states that occur while I'm sober. I have had moments of Witnessing that scared me and I wished then that I didn't have to know about all this! I'm not going to go on about it in case no one responds to this because it is a complicated and complex issue and I don;t feel like any other person on the planet has. Who does yoga and then is afraid he will be enlightened?

Trancribed from my journal:

"It is late and I had layed down to sleep. Whether or not it is relevant I had taken a Valerian Root and a B-complex vitamin (nothing new, I've done this many times). I began reciting lightly that "I will remember my dreams" or something of that nature and had my hands over my chest as lately I have taken an interest in my heart and its beating. Out of nowhere I had a feeling as if my head had been inflated with air. In fact, my whole body felt "airy", but I don't mean like I'm floating...just "airy". My immediate thoughts were that my body-image had warped into somewhat of a candy-apple with a large head and a childishly small body and that I knew I recognized this sensation before but for the life of me could not place it. I likened it possibly to past Salvia Divinorum experience, but that did not seem to satisfy. It came on slowly and at first I liked it and felt it was a symptom of yogic success. Then as reality began to slip away I felt perhaps I was about to leave my body. my ego-defense mechanism kicked in and I had panicky feelings. I opened my eyes and closed them again, scared. This time I tried as best I could to surrender to the experience but felt the opportunity had passed and that I had passed on it. I did see layers of blackness and felt myself being absorbed into the nothingness. I still cannot recall when I have felt that strange body sensation before. Somewhere the notion arises that it is from early childhood - probably due to the odd body perception. I was afraid of uncovering myself because I thought I might actually see tiny limbs!"

So there's the experience. This bailing out is a common thing with me and it seriously bothers me. Here is my take on it that I wrote after the above experience:

"I am somewhat frustrated at my inability to LET GO and I theorize it is because of my experience on mushrooms years ago. Ever since that night I seem to have constructed a jittery ego-defense system that is quite strong. Whereas before I sought altered and mystical states with admirable bravery and ignorance I now seek them only to shirk away when I feel it is oncoming. I feared I might gain a paranormal power during this experience whereas normally I'd love to be psychokinetic! On LSD I embraced my mystical state. On mushrooms I blew ego to bits and was left godless and in that hell of dissociation. I suspect in lieu of the trauma I have constructed a defense mechanism - the nature of which cannot be readily analyzed as good or bad. There is the argument of entheogenists and psychonauts that such traumatisms are beneficial rites of passage though painful and dangerous. Then you have the spiritualists, specifically yogis who either only use marijuana, advise the useage of entheogens only to be initiated onto the spiritual path, or discourage them altogether. I don;t feel I'll ever come to know the nature of these infinitely complex substances, however, one must analyze the benefits. The path of yoga seem to lend more to stability and less of the razors-edge psychosis enlightenment of psychadelics which never seem to provide a healthy and lasting transcendence. I do not know if mushrooms caused a "damage" but I do know they seem to hinder my growth yogically. Perhaps though they kept me from hurdling overzealously into mystical oblivion via psychadelics. Certainly because of that experience I learned the virtue of the middle-path and to appreciate my baseline state. Certainly I went through a period of harsh catharsis and reflection. Ultimately I am undoubltedly happier post-mushrooms and I cannot say that my percieved ego-defense is necessarily bad - but perhaps part of a grand scheme. Perhaps there to benefit my aspiration and teach me grounding before I fly off. Certainly I never realized the value of grounding before. The fear takes on a sinister and even conspirital tone which I take to just be the nature of fear itself. Maybe I did create a traume-induced blockage. In that case I have to trust it will dissolve with time but not leave me in the godless, egoless hell I was in before. Perhaps overall my ego-defense is there to force me to be patient and content - to not seek the unknown and mystical prematurely and to enjoy the simplicity and grounding beauty of this reality. Certainly that was the theme directly after any "bad trips" and it sure seemed like the ultimate truth then".

There you have it. Another spontaenous mystical experience that triggered my mushroom fears.

Bottom line is - because on mushrooms I lost my ego and was left out in the middle of cosmic nowhere I am afraid that this is what enligtenment is. There was no god to comfort me because I WAS GOD and everything else. I don;t like those feelings now and feel it makes me somewhat of a mutant when it comes to yoga and life in general. Enlightened states seem to have a permanent fear attached to them so am I banished to seek the spiritual because I cannot go back to blindness, yet am afraid to have my eyes opened?

I can only guess that maybe because the mushrooms trip was done during a state of spiritual immaturity - when i was younger, not emotionally stable, and before I had ANY spiritual discipline and had A LOT of growing up to do - perhaps when it took my ego away there was no cosmic bliss and Oneness because I had not cultivated the ability to feel it? Perhaps if I ever go to that place again via yoga it will be better?




Edited by - anthony574 on Oct 29 2007 12:11:22 PM

Balance

USA
967 Posts

Posted - Oct 29 2007 :  12:52:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit Balance's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Anthony

The way I have experienced it is that the drugs only amplify the duality. Until duality is seen through I won't do any more drugs because the intensity of pain is unnecessary for me to experience anymore. When duality is seen through there will be no desire to do drugs because everything is good as it is. The oh so subtle high I now experience is more complete and beautiful than what I had with the drugs.
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Eddie33

USA
120 Posts

Posted - Oct 29 2007 :  1:15:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Eddie33's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I think i can relate a lot with what you are saying. I too had very bad experiences with both mushrooms and salvia. let me briefly go over them.

On shrooms (my second time) i did it with my brother and two friends in my room. My dad was downstairs. In the begining i remember being in such an immense bliss. literally rolling around the room non-stop, in complete awe laughing my ass off at how incredible it was. There was also a sense in it i remember of it being "always like this".. Well It started to go downhill when my dad intervened (way too much noise). My dad was apparently satan. If theres a hell to experience that is it. I can't even put into words how bad it was. I remember seeing my girlfriend flat on the floor like in a one demension. I also remmeber feeling like i'll never see the peopel i love and i'll never work at dominos again etcetera.

The salvia exerperience was a little different. I tried it with a guy that i just met. It was very short (5 min.) but in that time my whole reality was flipped upside down. Everything was compeltley distorted. I didn't know who i was. And just felt this intense fear that lingered for the next couple of days.

From these experiences i can say that the spiritual path definitley gives me fear. I have many moments in my dreams and in waking state where i feel like i'm about to die. Or i feel like i am dead and have no ego. But what i conclude is that these are just temporary feelings. Bumps on the road. Everybody has them i'm sure. They could be intensified because of drug experiences i don't know. I think drugs just basically distort the **** out of everything, lol.

Also as far as being in an egoless state and a hellish state i would say that that's as innacurate interpretation. I would say that it's jsut a transitory state. Because it can't be a completley egoless state because your still attached to your ego and a a bunch of other attachments. With the spiritual path i'm guessing that these attachments loosen up over time or even out or become transcended i have know idea what really happens.

But doesn't the positive sdie of the apparent egoless state feel incredible??
It's really like you are not there

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tadeas

Czech Republic
314 Posts

Posted - Oct 29 2007 :  4:56:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Anthony :)

I'd say that after you start the transformation through yogic practices it means that your perception of yourself is changing and it's just better not to mess with the whole process. It's already comlex enough so why complicate it even more. I've had simmilar experiences on drugs as you and it just creates scars/imbalances that have to be healed afterwards. The cosmic lonelines or solipsism is just a misperception, just another false belief that you need to let go of, it's the ego construct thinking nothing exists apart from itself. A bad idea, indeed :)

I've found that the experience on shrooms certainly changed for me with yoga, but what's the point of taking them, anyway. You've seen that it created fear/confusion for you, so why create more of it.

There's nothing to resist, it's all love :) take care... enjoy, don't worry :)
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anthony574

USA
549 Posts

Posted - Oct 29 2007 :  6:06:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit anthony574's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't intend on doing them again...maybe except for LSD if it ever seems right because that has only ever reinforced my path (in low doses) and its good fun.

I am intent on just going along and trusting the process...but I can't imagine a day when I will be open to these mystical experiences. I feel like last night perhaps I was on the verge of having maybe some sort of great OBE...but I bailed out!

"The cosmic lonelines or solipsism is just a misperception, just another false belief that you need to let go of, it's the ego construct thinking nothing exists apart from itself. A bad idea, indeed :)"

That makes a lot of sense. Though at the time when I think my fear is just a misconception it seems like a cop-out and a fallacy...afterwards I often tell myself this as a consolation. I just don't understand why people in enlightenend states or any type feel unity with everything, and even in drug/drugless states experience God as both seperate from themselves and of themselves...yet all I feel is lonely old me stuck forever in a twisted cruel spinning wheel of "reality" that exists only for its own sake because otherwise there would be nothing...and neither choice makes much sense.
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tadeas

Czech Republic
314 Posts

Posted - Oct 29 2007 :  6:37:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
You feel unity in the absence of duality, it's a layer over unity... or that's how I sees it :)

Anyway, I think the only resolution or relief you can have from this is to let it go... in meditation or in whatever you love doing... Analyzing it all too much doesn't bring much more insight from my experience.
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jillatay

USA
206 Posts

Posted - Oct 30 2007 :  1:17:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit jillatay's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Anthony,

You remind me of myself when I was young. I presume you are in your twenties? I would use drugs for spiritual purposes but was not having a happy timeof it at all. Still I felt compelled to continue. It took a huge event (the death of my boyfriend) and a lot of years to overcome this compulsion. Even on pot I would have terrible paranoia. It wasn't fun at all but I couldn't stop. Now if I even smell the smoke I walk the other way. I have been clean and sober for 20 years now. I sometimes dream I have taken something. The dreams are way better than the waking drug experience. When I wake up I have to wrack my brain to remember if I really did take anything.

As for the OBE, I have had natural sleep paralysis from childhood and it scared the dickens out of me. But when I found out it could lead to OBE I was relieved and excited. I looked forward to it happening. Since then, of course, it has only happened twice. Drat! I can induce an OBE with practices I discovered on saltcube.com but I can assure you that they are really no big deal. Being in the "astral body" is a lot like this one. Pretty much, wherever you go there you are.

I would recommend that you learn some deep relaxation techniques. Then when you have serenity in your body, you can remain unshaken no matter where the mind takes you.

Best of luck really.
Jill
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Eitherway

USA
100 Posts

Posted - Oct 30 2007 :  2:20:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Eitherway's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Anthony,

I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in your confusion and suffering, its just that all of us have slightly different issues that we are dealing with. I have used a few different substances with mostly positive effects. THe only thing that I could not shake was that the drugs were a high and once off them, I had to come back to reality (still feels like it). For me the coming back to reality part seemed to move from static to slightly worse (over time) leaving me wanting to partake again. Now, with Ayp (I wish I would have found it when in 2003 or whenever it was started) on the otherhand, the experiences during the practices vary but there seems to be steady progress (ebb and flow noted) in life.

I would advise you to ignore the machinations of the mind if possible, remember these feelings will pass. Continue the practices for 6 months without any further partaking of substances and then reevaluate. I did the same, and believe me I really don't have any longing for any of the substances that I used before. I even received about 5 doses of 2ci in the mail (mistakenly-they were addressed to an old housemate) and they have been sitting in my room for the past month, but the slow and steady Ayp techniques have got me to the point where I can't wait to sit for my practices and definitely don't want anything to mess with them.


Good luck

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delta33

Canada
100 Posts

Posted - Oct 30 2007 :  3:30:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit delta33's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
"i think i'm getting the fear"
"nonsense.. you must realize, that we've found the main nerve"
(fear and loathing in las vegas, paraphrased)

fear runs deep, binds us in emotional cages.

it's easy to blame drugs, but look around you -- everyone is afraid.. this is why they remain in their comfort zones, trying to block out the perceived horror.. this is ego in self protection mode.

like you, i've had a few frightening drug experiences, and yes, i find myself bumping into them now and then while doing yoga and meditation. fears, terrors at that magnitude, leave scars in the emotional body i think. it is painful to encounter them again; they are latent emotional memories, and working through the scar tissue involves reliving the original torment.

..however..

i've found that this 'damage', if we want to call it that, is repairable. the lifeforce running up the spine energizes those coiled off segments of our emotional selves left trapped in the past; pranayama sweeps out their stagnant energies. drinking lots of filtered water helps too:

"i care to exist on air and water; diamond wine"

what is the result of this purification? restoration! the fear is faced with the light of consciousness, dissolved into loving awareness; a missing piece of one(S)elf is reintegrated into present wholeness.. this is healing.

hehe.. these are my own revelations about myself; nothing more.

one tip that really helped me a lot was letting whatever happened be ok. having a good experience? that's ok. having a bad experience? that's ok too. catching yourself applying a judgement of good or bad? it's all ok.

for those times when you become truly terrified, ask yourself: "ok, i'm truly terrified.. what happens next?" when there's no more terror to add, the cage of fear is broken, and the light shines in; the husk is removed from the seedling as it sprouts.

may you be well, and happy :)
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Jack

United Kingdom
305 Posts

Posted - Oct 30 2007 :  4:59:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit Jack's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I've been there a few times, Anthony.

Whilst not going to the root of the 'issue', it can be hugely helpful to be living in a place you feel comfortable, doing something you enjoy with your days, keeping good friendships, and having fun. Too much boredom or too heavy a vibe in your everyday life really DOES NOT help us to integrate and move on from those introspective nightmares.

So get your lower four chakras sorted out! :)

Peace.
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anthony574

USA
549 Posts

Posted - Oct 31 2007 :  12:07:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit anthony574's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks a lot for the support. It really helps to hear it.
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Eddie33

USA
120 Posts

Posted - Oct 31 2007 :  01:29:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit Eddie33's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
i think it's good to talk about stuff like this. it kind of balances out the idealistic parts of this path. i think the idealistic parts are nessecary. if they weren't there would probably be a lot less people doing this kind of stuff.

but once your on it you start to realize that this isn't all fun and games. one idea that i've always had was to make a kind of spiritual path group therapy. i think where theres no ruling teachings and people are just basically confronted with eachother and let everything come out, and then meditate so they don't go nuts
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LittleTurtle

USA
342 Posts

Posted - Oct 31 2007 :  09:34:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Anthony,
--"I can only guess that maybe because the mushrooms trip was done during a state of spiritual immaturity - when i was younger, not emotionally stable, and before I had ANY spiritual discipline and had A LOT of growing up to do - perhaps when it took my ego away there was no cosmic bliss and Oneness because I had not cultivated the ability to feel it? Perhaps if I ever go to that place again via yoga it will be better?"--

I think this last paragraph of your says a lot.
If I'm understanding you correctly, well, I think I can relate, as can some others here. You are NOT alone despite what your emotions may tell you.

Years ago I went through quite a bit of existential weirdness and pain. Impossible for me to describe to anyone. I'd rather break a leg than go through some of those experiences ever again. It was that bad.

Some of it was probably exacerbated by drug use. (I didn't do that much really.) But basically it just came from me.

My first experience was at age seven. I won't bore you with all the extra details but the jist of it was that after asking questions of adults and getting no satisfactory answers, I began asking myself inside. Questions like "Is there god?" "What happens to us after we die?".

The result of this was that I found myself sort of split. I was sitting in my house in my living room alone asking "Is there god?" "What happens to us after we die?", feeling afraid, and then next thing I knew I'm (or part of me) floating all alone above the earth!

This seemed to be my answer. More aloneness. You can imagine what effect this had on the psyche of a seven year old. Many years later I had similar experiences. But along with the similar feeling came the idea that I was God and I felt alone because I was all that there is!!
It was not an enlightening experience. I was hellish. It seemed if there was a hell then that was it. As an adult it was even more disorienting and I really really had to work on my self to feel connected to anything at all. That was one of the keys for me. To get grounded because I would get spaced out and dragged into existential nothingness terror. Some days it was, "Ok, get up, brush teeth, put on clothes, feed kids, etc." I had to sort of lead myself around by tasking in order to stay grounded and focused. It worked.

And I also had to stay away from any drugs because hash and marijuana brought it all on again. I came to the conclusion that I am very sensitive (why could others smoke mj and get a great time but I ended up out on planet 9 somewhere?).

However over the years I have had a few experiences that were very enlightening. I once was sitting and studying something (no drugs) and suddenly I was in a completely different state. I could see and understand the perfection and intelligence in nature, in the human body and how it all made sense. (actually trying to put it in words like this just sounds so silly. there's no way to describe it.)

The long and short of it is that all of this sort of put me on a quest . Drugs just sort of whipped me around and got me confused. I could only see part of anything, not the whole picture. I want the whole picture. According the the saints and sages the whole picture is possible. It is possible to experience and BE Oneness not separateness. It is possible to see perfection in nature everyday, not just an occasional fluke.

I think for some folks, the sensitive types, for lack of a better term, persueing Truth can be a very scary ride. At first. One thing I learned as a seven year old floating around above the earth is that asking questions can be very powerful. We are powerful.

Take care.

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anthony574

USA
549 Posts

Posted - Nov 01 2007 :  10:53:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit anthony574's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
"But along with the similar feeling came the idea that I was God and I felt alone because I was all that there is!!"

That is exactly what I experience. People don't get it sometimes because it obviously can sound quite megalomaniacal to the non-spiritualist, but that's exactly what I feel. I always resonate with what I read one time in a kundalini article when I was desperately trying to find some answers. It said something like "When you experience this cosmic lonliness, you are feeling the lonliness of Brahma which spurned the essence of creation. He creates life seperate from himself to escape the lonliness of himself" Whether or whether not that is why, it makes sense to me. When it comes to mystical experiences, that seems to be what I'm doomed to, not the ecstatic blissful oneness.

My mushroom trip had me in this void of space for what seemed like hours and hours feeling the worst angst and dread I've ever felt at the idea that I am Everything That Was Is and Will Be and that I screwed myself up because "I" am not meant to know this and "I" was meant to just string along like all the other egos but because I wanted to badly to "break through" (as if life wasn't satisfying enough) here "I" am, and it sucks.

Sometimes I wonder if yoga is a good thing, or any such practices. It would seem that our ego condition is here for a reason and that to break it down, break through the illusion of reality, force ourselves back upon this state that our egos are here to avoid is not only unnatural, but dangerous. If we were meant for "enlightenment", why then do we have to labor so hard to get onnly a piece of it? Sometimes I feel I am doing damage to myself with yoga, but then again I don't seem to be able to "go back" because that would just be a life of feigned ignorance.
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bewell

1275 Posts

Posted - Nov 01 2007 :  1:28:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
Sometimes I feel I am doing damage to myself with yoga, but then again I don't seem to be able to "go back" because that would just be a life of feigned ignorance.



My advice: Don't do what you feel is doing damage. I doubt that "yoga" per se is bad. Try to isolate that aspect of your practice that seems like it is doing damage. Be as specific as possible. Drop that specific aspect.

Edited by - bewell on Nov 03 2007 8:17:08 PM
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Jack

United Kingdom
305 Posts

Posted - Nov 03 2007 :  5:00:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit Jack's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
You may just be thinking about this too much Anthony.

Ground yourself and find some things you enjoy in life. Chill out, man.

I've done this loop so many times its not even funny. You need to stop fuelling the worry thought pattern.

In my limited opinion.

Peace,
Jack

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bewell

1275 Posts

Posted - Nov 03 2007 :  8:18:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Jack
Ground yourself and find some things you enjoy in life. Chill out, man.



Jacks advice is better than mine
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anthony574

USA
549 Posts

Posted - Nov 03 2007 :  11:23:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit anthony574's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Tonight I was driving home from a very busy night at my job. I naturally did not get an opportunity to "center" myself while I was in robot mode trying to get my bus-boy job done. When I was driving home I began to breathe and center myself...but then I started getting the bad feelings. I looked around and though "is this all there is?". I tried to think about how there is supposed to be some kind of "bliss" in knowing reality is an illusion and created of oneself...but I do not see any bliss, just cosmic angest combined with the dread of infinity and feeling trapped in the idea of Being instead of not-Being. Oh, its impossible to explain. And during times like those I think about yoga and wonder if I seriously should stop because it can sometimes bring on the cosmic angst. And then I think that by "grounding" myself I am simply attaching to things which is supposedly to be avoided. It seems I cant win.

I had a thought perhaps that I am a bit wrong in my ideas about reality. I feel reality is a projection of "myself", a reality created by my will...but I think maybe I am mixing up my "I's". Maybe my pain is caused by the idea that I associate this creative force with me, Anthony, instead of the divine oneness. Does that make sense?
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Black Rebel Radio

USA
98 Posts

Posted - Nov 04 2007 :  08:39:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit Black Rebel Radio's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Ananda. I can understand where you are coming from completely. Your's is a journey that many people are on but I never really met any of them until I had already been going through my own personal hell (and multiple cycles). I won't get into the details but I think that the comment above on grounding is key. You know the old joke comment, "get a hobby"? Usually it is derogatory but I think that there is a beautiful truth in it. You mentioned getting into your bus-boy job and getting lost in it. I think that you need more of that. Zen gardening. That is the grounding part (and the chilling out). For me it is riding my motorcycle. It is a yogic machine (sport bike, Kawasaki Ninja). Only you can figure that out what it is for you but I think it is an important part of our lives that is often neglected. For my wife it is sewing, for some playing the guitar or whatever. I think balance is the answer. Self-pacing as Yogani says. Sometimes you need to get away from yourself as well as everybody else. Heheh.
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bewell

1275 Posts

Posted - Nov 04 2007 :  08:43:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
I had a thought perhaps that I am a bit wrong in my ideas about reality. I feel reality is a projection of "myself", a reality created by my will...but I think maybe I am mixing up my "I's". Maybe my pain is caused by the idea that I associate this creative force with me, Anthony, instead of the divine oneness. Does that make sense?



Yes, it does make sense.

It also makes sense that busing tables will tend to make you feel something other than "bliss." This brings us to ordinary expression of feelings, which I think is quite important.

In my opinion, to keep one's sanity, it is very important to be honest about ones perceptions. Yoga talk can sometimes get into non-ordinary uses of language. It gets confusing trying to be honest about ordinary feelings using language that is paradoxical. In my opinion, when in doubt, better to stay grounded in ordinary language. I've noticed that Yogani generally tends to use language that is based in the ordinary usage. He is light on the metaphysical stuff. I like that about Yogani's teachings.
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bewell

1275 Posts

Posted - Nov 04 2007 :  10:48:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
Maybe my pain is...



Here is an observation I had not considered as it does not seem to be the case for me: for some, mantra meditation can lead to depression:

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2855



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andy

Australia
10 Posts

Posted - Nov 27 2023 :  10:34:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi anthony574 - are you still around on these forums? Sorry to dig up an ancient thread, but I'm curious how your experience with solipsism has unfolded over the years. I have a very similar history and experience to what was discussed in this thread and I'm looking for some guidance.
I'm 100% on the grounding train, yet every now and then, the experience does sneak up on me out of the blue. I'd love to understand if this sort of thing is something that gets "purified" away with the help of AYP practices over time.
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andy

Australia
10 Posts

Posted - Nov 28 2023 :  05:38:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I suppose Anthony may not be active here anymore, since his last post was a few years ago.

But maybe someone else here has had a similar experience with resolving solipsism permanently?

After doing a bit of searching online, it seems this is not an uncommon experience. I had an experience around a decade ago that triggered this for me. It comes on unexpectedly at times. Yesterday I was playing with my dog and just looking into his eyes for an extended moment brought on this deep seated fear that I'm the only "thing" that exists and that life is just an illusory experience I conjured up to keep myself distracted from feeling a hellish, everlasting aloneness/loneliness. The feeling can become so overwhelmingly scary and the experience feel so much more real than physical life.

I do my best to turn away from those thoughts when I fall into this state to ride it out until it passes and I've managed to stay sane and functional, but my goal is to move past it, since it does keep happening. I do a decent amount of grounding. Exercise, lots of work with my hands around the house and my job keeps me very occupied and consistently engaged with people.

I just don't know if I can somehow process/purify it out of my system with AYP or some other approach, or if I have to just deal with it. The ultimate fear is that I can keep outrunning it for now, but death will make it inescapable and that terrifies me. I didn't fear death before all of this.
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TensorTympani

USA
52 Posts

Posted - Dec 01 2023 :  11:59:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I had similar experiences on psychedelics. And I think many people have such experiences. How much we are impacted by them depends I guess on many factors, but to a large extent it might be a matter of how much weight/credibility we attach to any such experience. If the experience comes with this attached quality of revealed truth, do we treat the insight afterwards as "as if true" or "true"? I personally managed (so far) to treat any such as experience simply as "as if true" in retrospect, even though during the experience there was no question about it being "true".

I think, for me personally, one of the coolest things I learned through exploring my mind with psychedelics (and now also with meditation) is to allow myself to have (and remind myself to be aware of) several belief systems, that can be switched like functional clothing for different weather conditions.

I got inspired to see it that way after reading John C Lily's book "The deep Self", where he writes:

quote:
In the province of the mind what one believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits. These limits are to be found experimentally and experientially. When so found these limits turn out to be further beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind there are no limits.

Edited by - TensorTympani on Dec 01 2023 2:47:42 PM
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andy

Australia
10 Posts

Posted - Dec 03 2023 :  11:36:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi TensorTympani. I get your point. For the most part, as I go about my daily life, I just live it like most people (at least how I imagine most people live) and no concepts related to solipsism enter my mind. And even if I actively reflect back on the experiences I had, there's not much substance to the memories of those experiences. I feel grounded and happy to go on living my life.
Then at some points in time (quite rare, all things considered) a feeling comes upon me and I feel like I'm falling out of physical life, to what feels like a much more true and quite sinister reality. If I allow myself to fall into that state without holding on to the physical world, that "reality" takes on a more real and more sinister form and I'm faced with a decision about what the truth of it all is. The choices I have available to me are all double edged swords. It becomes too confronting and so I breathe with intention and consciously turn my thoughts elsewhere, to run away from that experience.

I wrote my previous messages when I was fresh out of one of these experiences where the stakes still felt high and it still really worried me that I will have to face a large dose of this reality when I die. Only that at that point I won't be able to turn my thoughts elsewhere and run away and instead I will be brought into a place that feels like my own personal hell.

So while I'm clear headed now, I'm pretty convinced this will continue to keep creeping up on me and whatever the cause, I'm quite curious if the result of AYP practices, that is, the purification process, is that such things get dissolved. My assumption that this is the case is actually one of the main reasons that I re-started with AYP after something like a decade long hiatus from practices.
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Dogboy

USA
2162 Posts

Posted - Dec 03 2023 :  8:51:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply

quote:
I'm quite curious if the result of AYP practices, that is, the purification process, is that such things get dissolved. My assumption that this is the case is actually one of the main reasons that I re-started with AYP after something like a decade long hiatus from practices.


This is the case, Andy, at least in my experience (10 years AYP). There could be some "strong episodes" along the way, depending on one's blockages, so be prepared to self pace and ground. In fact, yogis should build grounding practices into everyday routine. Not only is it stabilizing, but also could allow one to take on more practices.
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