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bewell
1275 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 06 2007 : 09:50:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
...bliss, and that bliss becomes increasingly available to you. It's sort of like one of those mouse experiments...(when the bliss goes away they pine for more, feeling that they've been lessened by its absence).
But same thing. The bliss is random background chatter, too.
The trick is to cultivate a knee jerk reaction in yourself to letting go... Through rain, hail, bliss, profound observations, or every cell in your body quaking
Hi All,
I've been pondering this thread for some time, and now I think I'm ready to reply. Here goes: "Bliss" is not "crap," it is not "random background chatter," and it is not just more scenery to let go of.
In lesson 113 Yogani writes:
"Bliss is associated with the 'pure bliss consciousness' we experience in meditation and gradually more and more in our daily life as we continue to meditate. It comes up is as a pleasant, peaceful silence, a sort of unending inner smile, if you will. It is happiness that comes out of nowhere inside us as we take the mind and body to
stillness over and over again in meditation. Is inner silence we come
in touch with during meditation "complete happiness, heaven,
paradise?" As its presence grows in us it comes pretty close. It is
unshakable, always positive no matter what is going on around us, and
it has the feel of eternity in it as well. Most important, it is our
awareness standing alone, independent of body, breath, mind,
emotions, senses and all external events. It is the proverbial 'rock'
that will not wash away in the storms of life."
http://www.aypsite.org/113.html
There are non-dual moments when "bliss consciousness" goes blank, but we need not cling to those moments ideologically. As Yogani writes in this thread:
"Self-inquiry is closely related to meditation, in that we will find ourselves consistently making choices that are inclined toward expanding our inner silence. With the awakening of ecstatic conductivity, outpouring divine love will be coming along, which is also the process of samyama (the cultivation of stillness in action). This last stage is seldom recognized by students who adhere (cling?) to a non-dual philosophy, which is kind of impractical. There definitely is life after (and during!) the obliteration of the identification of the mind. And what a life it is."
Yes, I can testify: Once, not by my own doing, in mystical ecstasy, separate from ordinary body identification, my mind was obliterated, and afterward came paradise (of the sort Yogani talks about in lesson 113), briefly. The next day, I was back to ordinary suffering and desire. Now, with the help of AYPs I am increasingly free to return to that paradise, (or a less complete version resembling it) and live out of paradise more and more of the time.
Bliss consciousness is not addictive. It frees one from addictions. Nor is it something to take pride in. It is a gift not of ones own making.
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Edited by - bewell on Nov 06 2007 10:42:47 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2007 : 12:27:08 PM
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Good posting, Bewell, thanks!
The more I open, the more ecstacy comes. It's like a chinese finger trap...the more I transcend the ecstacy, the more ecstacy comes from that transcendence. And I'd much rather just let my doors blow off and merge with love than enjoy the bliss. Just as I'd rather open up and let go than enjoy anything else in the samsara....french fries, poker chips, etc.
Patanjali is clear on the koshas (the levels of mud with which a seeker identifies as he/she progressively works to clear through those layers). The bliss layer/kosha is very deep, but it's still mud. It's just another level of french fries and poker chips. More seductive, too, by far.
Now, if you want to say the mud (the bliss, french fries, the poker chips, et al) is as divine and godly and part of the true Self as anything else...I have NO argument! But the problem is that I - like everyone else - get stuck, because I have mud on my windows that keeps me from fully and enduringly experiencing What Is. And bliss is just a different shade of mud.
That is what I've experienced. Your feeling is different, and I'm really glad to have you state it! But if, one day, you (or anyone reading along) get the impression that the bliss is not, like, "IT", and it is, in fact, kind of distracting (and Yogani does warn about increasingly seductive and disruptive "scenery"), perhaps my having offered my perspective will be somehow helpful. Not that you'll necessarily come to share exactly my perspective...we all have unique perspectives! But some cross-pollination is helpful, and that's what forums are good for.  |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Nov 06 2007 12:32:15 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2007 : 1:02:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Patanjali is clear on the koshas (the levels of mud with which a seeker identifies as he/she progressively works to clear through those layers). The bliss layer/kosha is very deep, but it's still mud.
Are you calling Anandamaya kosha "mud"? And claiming Patanjali as your authority on the matter? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2007 : 1:11:20 PM
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Well, my main point is that I'm calling Anandamaya kosha a kosha.
And all koshas are just koshas.
So insofar as that is the case (and my experience...corroborated by Patanjali...is that it is so), until you cease fully identifying yourSelf with these koshas - the tribulations and urgings of the physical body, the chaotic nattering of mind, the flows of the energetic body, and the seductive narcosis of bliss - you are in delusion, failing to see the unity of What Is. And anything that blocks that vision I deem mud, no matter how lovely (there's some pretty nice stuff in the physical layer, as well). That includes bliss, and, to use Yogani's example, experiences of Jesus Christ inviting you for a ride in his chariot. You let it go. It's just stuff.
That said, even the mud's divine. None of it's bad. We just get attached to some of it and identify with it, to the point where we cultivate an illusion of separateness from the whole. I'm working hard to avoid such attachment and identification. Including to the bliss. 'Cuz the bliss is just more of same. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Nov 06 2007 1:19:42 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2007 : 3:58:05 PM
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Jim, I don't understand nothing. Yogani's last words in that lesson are:
"So, there is much more than divine ecstasy. Just keep going, and you
will find the whole thing refining and expanding. You will have the
sobriety you seek, and the essence of all creation as well, which is
unshakable inner silence, ecstatic bliss and outpouring divine love."
I have absolutely no clue of what is ecstatic, what is bliss, what is a result of the frictions of kundalini cleaning or the consciousness cleaning.
I recognize myself a lot in Rumi's descriptions of the burning longing for Love for example, and that is obviously a sign of being caught in "divine ecstasy" according to the lesson (mentioning a lot of people having gone through that opium-like addictive state). But I would not describe it as ecstasy... not opium-like either... Not addictive... And I would not call it bliss. I don't understand the connotations of those words anylonger.
I would rather actually call it "merge with love" as you say, and Truth.
What I have described of my journey in all my earlier posts have not in my mind been strong enough to fit my (hahaaa here it comes:) expectations of ecstasy and bliss. I think I have expected "ecstasy" to have a sexual flavour, that it should be like a supersuperstrong orgasm... And I have expected bliss to be a supersuperstrong sensation of a peculiar kind that I have never experienced. And none of those have happened.
So as far as I'm concerned I'm only flip-flopping in and out of time, in and out of existence, in and out of openness, presence, love, the witness state, stillness, emptiness, joy, truth, between identification with the real and the unreal... all of those words are superclear somehow. Ecstasy and bliss is blurry... Weird. Absolutely weird. |
Edited by - emc on Nov 06 2007 4:02:47 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2007 : 6:50:20 PM
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Hi Jim:
To paraphrase Bob Adamson (Sailor Bob):
"What's wrong with bliss, unless you think about it?"
The word "bliss" can be replaced with just about anything we experience in life. The point being, it is not necessary to put a value judgment on anything. And if we do, our value judgment isn't more or less valid than anyone else's. It is what we choose it to be.
Is it so terrible to feel good? Spiritual bliss born in stillness is not a tangent, because it leads directly to union. Spiritual ecstasy born of the body can become a tangent, but it too leads to union when coupled with silent bliss. You can trust the process, and yourself. Just get out of the way and let it happen.
It really boils down to that -- favoring practices and the fullness of daily living over an endless stream of evaluated experiences. We can never get rid of experiences. But we can allow them with infinite grace, because we are That.
We can get used to anything, even ecstatic bliss. Enlightenment is beyond that anyway, in chopping the wood and carrying the water, mostly for others. We can tell others (and ourselves) a thousand times what to let or not let, but in the end it can only be found in our stillness, the witness. That's why I keep telling people to meditate and go out and live. It is profoundly simple.
Practice and do as you are moved, like you are doing now. That is the journey. Sooner or later the intensity of it will pass as inner silence continues to integrate, and you will find yourself relaxing into the whole thing. It could take a while. Paradoxically, once relaxed, you may keep going with intensity in divine flow, and barely notice. Less becomes more.
EMC: Bliss, inner silence and joy are synonymous, while ecstasy is of the body. See here for how the distinction is drawn in AYP: http://www.aypsite.org/113.html
The emergence of divine love and unity (non-duality, non-identification with objects of experience) may come and go along the way, and then it finally comes and stays for good. Before then, it is mostly an infatuation game we play with the glimpses -- but fun anyway, and part of the journey. Just keep meditating and all infatuations will be fulfilled. The difference between infatuation and fulfillment is found in favoring sound practices over experiences for the long term. Then there can be no doubt because our condition will be alive and unending on the cellular level, beyond the fickle mind. This is the aim of self-inquiry also.
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2007 : 07:29:07 AM
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Yogani, thanks a million!
That lesson had a very new message when read today!
I'm so glad I have found my way back to practices. That infatuation game is fun at times and extremely confusing at times... Thank you for guiding and offering such an elegant and simple tool for expanding the enchilada! |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2007 : 09:23:07 AM
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"Is it so terrible to feel good? Spiritual bliss born in stillness is not a tangent, because it leads directly to union. Spiritual ecstasy born of the body can become a tangent, but it too leads to union when coupled with silent bliss. You can trust the process, and yourself. Just get out of the way and let it happen.
It really boils down to that -- favoring practices and the fullness of daily living over an endless stream of evaluated experiences. We can never get rid of experiences. But we can allow them with infinite grace, because we are That.
We can get used to anything, even ecstatic bliss. Enlightenment is beyond that anyway, in chopping the wood and carrying the water, mostly for others. We can tell others (and ourselves) a thousand times what to let or not let, but in the end it can only be found in our stillness, the witness. That's why I keep telling people to meditate and go out and live. It is profoundly simple.
Practice and do as you are moved, like you are doing now. That is the journey. Sooner or later the intensity of it will pass as inner silence continues to integrate, and you will find yourself relaxing into the whole thing. It could take a while. Paradoxically, once relaxed, you may keep going with intensity in divine flow, and barely notice. Less becomes more."
Couldn't have said it better, Yogani. Thanks for saying it for me.
Best, yb. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2007 : 10:32:17 AM
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"We can never get rid of experiences."
No, we can't since we ARE those experiences, but who is experiencing? Is it the mind taking ownership of it, mudding the experience up with it's evalutions? Or is it a DIRECT EXPERIENCE in and from a conscious awareness? The difference is quite profound.
The typical example of what I mean with direct experience is what can hit you as that sudden overwhelming sensation by a beautiful view of nature, getting so touched, bringing you to a humbleness of the grace of nature, a short moment when the time stops and the heart sings of gratefulness of being able to see the beauty of Earth... That's a direct experience. Only possible to hold for a short moment for someone not cultivating inner stillness. With growing inner stillness that direct experience is what is taking place more and more. Even cleaning the toilet or emptying the garbage bin can give rise to a such wonderful direct experience, and ultimately - that directness is what IS 24/7. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2007 : 2:23:02 PM
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Hi Jim:
It may be that we have gotten tripped up on terminology here.
"Bliss" is an aspect of inner silence, pure consciousness, and is not intense or overwhelming. Intensity is of the body-mind -- energy moving through the nervous system, which is purification and opening. It may be experienced as intensely ecstatic, overwhelming, or symptomatic in other ways -- pressure, heat, physical movement, emotions, etc.
And, yes, deep meditation cultivating more inner silence can lead to more ecstatic energy flow, seemingly without limit -- those Chinese handcuffs you mentioned. So we self-pace and ground...
Your years in hatha may well have set the stage for what you are experiencing now. Others have come from hatha with similar experiences, sometimes way out of balance. Hatha methods are mainly about the body and energy. That is why the Asanas, Mudras & Bandhas book has the subtitle, "Awakening Ecstatic Kundalini." You are clearly into that. The potential for that kind of experience coming from a strong hatha background is examined in the book.
Pure unadulterated bliss becoming intense to the point of, "Eek! I can't stand it anymore," is not in the cards. Bliss is part and parcel of the "peace that surpasses all understanding." It is inner silence, the witness, sat-chit-ananda, where ananda is bliss. It is pure happiness, an endless "inner smile" -- nothing more, nothing less (check the lesson). Intensity is not part of the bliss of pure consciousness. Intensity is of the body, and the body is the purveyor of ecstasy, not bliss.
The energy side of it is kundalini, which I think is what you are describing. But I could be wrong. It is semantics. It does help to know what is coming from where, making a distinction between bliss and ecstasy, so practices and progress will not be compromised by doubt or fear.
It might be time to take a look at your hatha in relation to the rest of your practices. Less could be more -- more of what you want (inner silence), rather than more of what has been too much (energy). Just a suggestion.
Maybe this topic should be called, "Ecstasy: Just more crap to get through." Whadayathink? Then the kundalini yogis and tantrics will be up in arms.
Happily, there is a marriage of blissful silence and ecstatic energy in the offing, and the child of unifying outpouring divine love to be born from that. Give it some time.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2007 : 12:03:52 AM
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Thanks, Yogani!
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
"What's wrong with bliss, unless you think about it?"
Nothing at all. I never said otherwise!
My point is that it's just "scenery". As such, it's nothing special. It's not to attach to or to spurn. It's just more stuff to let go of. That was my point. If people prefer "stuff" to "crap", great. I don't mean actual literal feces, though there's nothing "wrong" or "right" with excrement, either.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
It may be that we have gotten tripped up on terminology here..........
............ Bliss is part and parcel of the "peace that surpasses all understanding." It is inner silence, the witness, sat-chit-ananda, where ananda is bliss.
I must confess that I'm not always totally clear on the difference between bliss and ecstasy. But I think our terms are straight here. I'm using "bliss" in the sense of the Anandamaya kosha (this thread is about koshas), and you referenced "ananda".
My understanding, from Patanjali and from my own self-inquiry is that it's awfully enjoyable, but it's scenery, akin to the scenery at any other stage...and it's not to identify with or be seduced by. You seemed to agree with my reasoning on this way back in my initial posting....
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
It might be time to take a look at your hatha in relation to the rest of your practices
Many thanks...I'll of course take your advice very seriously, as always! I did have this sort of energy issue a couple years ago when kundalini first awakened. I thought it was more or less under control (after a lot of work on grounding and pacing...basically a reconsideration of hatha, per your urging!), but who knows. All I know is...I am...I am...I am. You've made a believer out of me re: plunging forward come what may!
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Nov 08 2007 01:48:39 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2007 : 04:17:42 AM
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Thanks Yogani
quote:
Pure unadulterated bliss becoming intense to the point of, "Eek! I can't stand it anymore," is not in the cards. Bliss is part and parcel of the "peace that surpasses all understanding." It is inner silence, the witness, sat-chit-ananda, where ananda is bliss. It is pure happiness, an endless "inner smile" -- nothing more, nothing less (check the lesson). Intensity is not part of the bliss of pure consciousness. Intensity is of the body, and the body is the purveyor of ecstasy, not bliss.
I hadn't perceived bliss in this way before, just automatically thought of it as something very intense and way out.
For me this is very important, it can give someone like me more confidence in their spirituallity.
When I read Tolle's The Power of Now it gave me a renewed sense of confidence through his descriptions of what "presence" is.
It seems to be similar or the same as bliss.
Basically I've been experiencing bliss and presence since I was a small child, which doesn't necessarily mean a lot - I was escaping from what was going on around me into the spiritual realm.
I guess I was so used to it I didn't give it much importance. In combination with a major upset in my life, I seemed to lose my backti for a while. It was in the realisation from Tolle of what that Presence or Bliss was, and the role it plays, that got me back on the path in a serious way again. It renewed my confidence.
So Jim, although you may regard it as just more scenery, it has a different importance for me.
It also feels like something foundational and something to be built on, rather that something that will be discarded at a later date, but that's just my impression.
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Edited by - Sparkle on Nov 08 2007 07:56:10 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2007 : 10:06:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
So Jim, although you may regard it as just more scenery, it has a different importance for me.
It also feels like something foundational and something to be built on, rather that something that will be discarded at a later date, but that's just my impression.
Please, if you have a sec, please reread my original posting in this thread.
Each stage you identify with feels special...like a real arrival point. It's a trap, whether it's the physical pleasures of identification with the body, the insightful pleasures of identification with the mind, the energetic pleasures of identification with the energetic body, or the blissful experiences of identification with the layer of bliss. The temptation is to say "NOW I've arrived", and to languish in a limited corridor of one's unlimited self.
All those things are fine. Nothing to be "for" or "against". The point is that all are to be transcended. If, that is, transcendence (clarity through all the mud) is what we seek, rather than maximal muddy pleasure. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2007 : 12:28:37 PM
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Hi Jim and All:
What we are talking about here is a function of self-inquiry, which is of the mind. Bliss is bliss. Ecstasy is ecstasy. How we engage with these is a mental activity. Obviously, what we'd like is to go beyond identification with these experiences. But this cannot happen until the experience is there and we have enough witness (inner silence) present to "be" beyond the experience.
In AYP, we always say, "Favor the practice over the experience," which is a precurser to self-inquiry.
I would still take issue with bliss being a "layer," since it is an aspect of the witness itself. Any objectiveness or intensity associated with bliss is outside in energy, and in the mind (the "layer" outside the thing itself, only a reflection of it). This is also the age-old argument on whether the ultimate truth is bliss consciousness or the empty void (a soulful versus soulless existence). The Buddhists concede that nirvana is "blissful" (ergo, "conscious"). The hardcore advaitists take a more rigid view, but their arguments sometimes seem a bit strained. I think even Nisargadatta (the hardest of the hardcore) admits to the transcendental nature of bliss, while denying it at the same time. What's the difference? It is what it is. We can experience it for ourselves, and describe it as we wish.
Anyway, what we don't want is to predispose people about experiences they may not be having yet (or just beginning to taste), which is what can turn the path into a mind game of little value, with a lot of confusion and possible loss of motivation to continue along the path, or with anything in life for that matter. That is called "non-relational self inquiry" in the new AYP Self-Inquiry book (no, the book is not ready yet -- give it a month, at least ... it is a tricky one).
Rather, we would like to inquire about things that are actually happening, which is called "relational self-inquiry" in the book. There can be much benefit in this, as it aids us in relating to what is happening in our life right now in an evolutionary way.
Even if we are not experiencing large doses of transcendental bliss (the witness) or inner ecstasy (kundalini), we always have a lot going on in our life in our relationships, with all our desires, actions, etc., for which self-inquiry can have value. This is self-inquiry directed specifically at everyday living situations, like what Byron Katie is doing in her work. Very practical and helpful on that level, and that is "relational self-inquiry," as long as there is a sense of resonance coming when engaging in it.
The path to relational self-inquiry is through cultivation of the witness. Then resonance with self-inquiry methods increases as our perception of truth within and around us is naturally deepening.
I don't think it is particularly helpful for people to be laboring over letting go of things that are not going on, which is building castles of mind stuff in the air. Much better to inquire about what is happening right now. If it feels resonant and good, it is likely relational self-inquiry. If it feels strained and awkward, it is probably non-relational self-inquiry. And we do you-know-what when there is strain in practices -- self-pace accordingly!
What I am saying here is for the benefit of everyone, regardless of location in practices and experiences along the path.
In your case, Jim, self-inquiry about the experiences of ecstasy and bliss may be appropriate, if it is resonant and yielding fruit in terms of finding some release (reduced identification). "Who are you in relation to those experiences?" If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall with that, if there is a lot of struggle about it, then it is likely non-relational self-inquiry, and perhaps consider backing off to something that resonates. It could be as simple as favoring sitting practices over experiences (and balancing hatha) and leaving it at that for a while. There are various grades of self-inquiry, and like with most spiritual practices, one size does not fit all at every point in time along the path.
For this reason, we have to be careful about telling people what they ought and ought not be identified with. Each identification with experience is a rung on the ladder of yoga, and each rung will dissolve as we move on to the next rungs. We are pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps, hopefully with minimum strain and fuss. That is why we always favor the practice over the experience, with or without deliberate self-inquiry in the picture between our daily sittings.
In the case of self-inquiry, there is a sliding scale of intention and practice that can be tricky to match up with the experience where we are. It is very easy to project self-inquiry beyond where we are into bogus analysis and infatuation with imagined certainties, which can be counterproductive. It happens all the time, even with advanced practitioners -- and we may not know it when it is happening. No one is immune from projections of the mind. So we favor the practices that further cultivate the witness. Then we can't miss, and the mind will help rather than hinder.
It is best to keep the witness coming via deep meditation, and take it easy with self-inquiry, favoring relational, which we will know by its natural resonance. It will be there when we need it.
The variety of self-inquiry practice styles happening in the AYP community demonstrates the wide range and relationship of our evolving inner silence/witness to experiences, whether it be in everyday living in dealings with others and our external environment, or in how we relate to our internal mental, emotional and spiritual experiences. Well, it is all "internal," isn't it? In all cases, it takes the witness and an experience playing upon it for relational self-inquiry to occur.
And if we see experiences as "more crap to get through," well, there may be some relational self-inquiry in that. Dissatisfaction is one of the first steps to progress.
The guru is in you.
Edited with additions a few hours after first posting.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2007 : 1:52:55 PM
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quote:
Each stage you identify with feels special...like a real arrival point. It's a trap, whether it's the physical pleasures of identification with the body, the insightful pleasures of identification with the mind, the energetic pleasures of identification with the energetic body, or the blissful experiences of identification with the layer of bliss. The temptation is to say "NOW I've arrived", and to languish in a limited corridor of one's unlimited self.
I was reading about something similar in a book call Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond
Quote:
In spite of clear advice from the Buddha himself, some students of meditation are misled by those who discourage Jhana on the grounds that one can become so attached to Jhana that one never becomes enlightened. It should be pointed out that the Buddha's word for attachment (upadana) refers only to attachment to the comport and pleasure of the five-sense world or to attachment to various forms of wrong view(such as wrong view of self). It never means attachment to wholesome things like jhana.
Simply put, jhana states are stages of letting go. One cannot be attached to letting go, just as one cannot be imprisoned by freedom.
One can indulge in jhana, in the bliss of letting go, and this is what some people are misled into fearing. But in the Pasadika Sutta the Buddha said that one who in the pleasures of jhana may expect only one of four consequences: stream winning, once-returning,non-returning, or full enlightenment. Thus in the words of Buddha, "One should not fear jhana.
Apologies for quoting out of a book but I think this is what Yogani is saying also.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2007 : 12:37:57 AM
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AYP teaches us to be neither seduced nor distracted by experiences during meditation. No matter what happens, even if Jesus Christ greets us, we favor the practice, favor the silence, and allow everything that seems to happen to simply be. You advocate - and your system has taught me - to approach my practice like a car going through an automatic car wash. Lots of dramatic brushing and squirting and scrubbing may be happening, but I just blithely allow the chain to pull me through it all NO MATTER WHAT. I don't let myself be seduced (and, paradoxically, the "scenery" keeps getting more and more seductive).
AYP helped me transcend the seductions, distractions, and experiences of the various koshas (you say bliss is more than just a layer, but what is a kosha but a layer? And bliss, as you know, is a kosha). And so, following the directions of your system, I'm letting the bliss be, but deeming it scenery. It happens around me...but it isn't the defining extent of me. I'm not diving into the scenery just because it's gotten particularly nice.
This attitude is how I witnessed and transcended mySelf from the other koshas, and i suppose it will eventually help me transcend this one. That's what this thread is about. It has nothing to do with self-inquiry; this is what's happening in my meditation. And this is nothing controversial...I'm following your instructions, and looking to Patanjali for corroboration - that bliss isn't some final point of ultimate reality of my true nature, but just another layer or kosha. Yeah, it's a particularly nice one! But I've had some awfully fantastic experiences in the outermost physical kosha, as well. And the thing is: my inner guru insists on more, even when it comes to bliss. That's my point, and, my goodness, it hardly seems controversial! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Nov 11 2007 01:05:59 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2007 : 08:49:33 AM
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Jim,
Just a thought... Do you see any similarities between this
"And the thing is: my inner guru insists on more, even when it comes to bliss."
and
"Living in existence as an enlightened being, expressed as stillness in action, is one step of enlightenment. Realizing that the world is only a reflection in the consciousness, that non-form and form are codependent and simultaneous, is beautiful. Oneness is beautiful. Lifting the veil and see the illusion is grace. Being the outpouring divine LOVE that I AM is awesome.
I still "know" that's not IT."
(emc in Beyond the beyond, http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2986)
I recognize that feeling, and as I see it, the "hard core" man Nisargadatta is advocating this as well!
quote:
In the perfect state, that state does not want to become something other than what it is. Nor does it want to be. Therefore, that beingness is not there, the feeling of "I-am-ness" is not present in the perfect state. Everything is complete. /Nisargadatta Maharaj
The Source divided into Two:
Consiousness and Life Force.
As Yogani says:
"I would still take issue with bliss being a "layer," since it is an aspect of the witness itself."
Inner ecstacy transforming to burning Love is the signum of Life Force.
Those lovely states belong to the Shiva-Shakti marriage. Beyond that is untouchable Source and that's where bhakti wants us to go. Home. All the way home. But... the big but: We're here as living beings in our bodies, therefore an expression of the Shiva-Shakti marriage. We can't escape that.
quote:
[Between vyakta and avyakta] there is no difference. It is like light and daylight. The universe is full of light which you do not see; but the same light you see as daylight. And what the daylight reveals is the vyakti. The person is always the object, the witness is the subject, and their relation of mutual dependence is the reflection of their absolute identity. You imagine that they are distinct and separate states. They are not. They are the same consciousness at rest and in movement, each state conscious of the other. In chit, man knows God and God knows man. In chit, the man shapes the world and the world shapes man. Chit is the link, the bridge between extremes, the balancing and uniting factor in every experience. The totality of the perceived is what you call matter. The totality of all perceivers is what you call the universal mind. The identity of the two, manifesting itself as perceptibility and perceiving, harmony and intelligence, loveliness and loving, reasserts itself eternally. /Nisargadatta Maharaj
So there is a place to accept what IS (existence as a reflection of non-existence)(with bliss and stuff), and there is a place to know where you come from, which to me is that longing for "more" - The Absolute, the Source.
Strangely, The Source and the two poles with all their extentions into multiplicity and individuality are all happening NOW, at the same time, inseparable... With or without a sensation of bliss. |
Edited by - emc on Nov 11 2007 08:53:48 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2007 : 09:02:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
...I'm letting the bliss be, but deeming it scenery. It happens around me ... but it isn't the defining extent of me. I'm not diving into the scenery just because it's gotten particularly nice.
Hi Jim:
Sounds like some pretty good self-inquiry. AYP-style, of course.
We will know the truth, and the truth will set us free.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2007 : 9:58:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Jim,
Just a thought... Do you see any similarities between this
(etc.)
emc, you addressed this to me, so I feel compelled to reply, but I find your posting more for chewing on than for commenting.
back to chewing.... |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2007 : 04:24:32 AM
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I'll chew with you! |
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Bliss: Just More Crap to Get Through
