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 Posted - Jul 08 2005 : 1:11:08 PM
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1203 From: "Rasa Von Werder" <rasa@womanthouartgod.com>
Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:57pm
Subject: CAN EAST AND WEST SHARE THE SAME MATH? rasavonwerder
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CAN EAST AND WEST SHARE THE SAME MATH?
Rasa Von Werder
http://www.womanthouartgod.com/yoga.php
July 3, 2005
When yoga first began to penetrate the United States, people were
shocked at the exotic and strangely fascinating religion. About a
hundred years ago, the great Apostle of Sri Ramakrishna, Swami
Vivekananda, arrived on our shores with unusual wisdom, but little
money. The custom in India was go door to door, where such souls are
supported as an act of reverence. But someone called the police, and
there, in that act, portrayed the difference in our thinking. Instead
of a holy soul, the frightened lady saw a dark-skinned beggar (lots of
prejudice on our part) in a Halloween suit, and instead of holiness
and wisdom, she saw danger. It did get sorted out, and Vivekananda no
doubt explained to the cops (in English not yet perfect) that he was
there for the first World Congress of Religion (Chicago) and got short
of funds, and was simply asking for a donation. (It annoys me that a
rich Hindu, instead of suiting up Vivekananda with funds, just gave
him a new suit for the monumental trip.)
Vedanta Comes West
Eventually, Vivekanada managed to find a number of female devotees
(many letters with Sister Christine extant) who supported his
mission. Macho, zealous and wise, you could see a strength in photos
with the arms folded over his torso. Victorian hearts must have
fluttered at the handsome and exotic speciman, speaking of God in a
new way. He had survived besotted Avatar Ramakrishna, saying to him
something like,
"OK, I will return if there is no more of that!"
(Referring to the Saint touching him and knocking him into deep
samadhi, right then and there where he remained unconscious for two
hours.) This was a bit much for the teenager and he was willing to go
along with Ramakrishna as long as conditions were a bit more normal.
Ramakrishna explained his relationship with then Narendra like this,
(words approximate):
"I see a great sage in eternity, sitting with a little child in his
lap, holding him lovingly...that sage is you, and the child is me."
Apparantly, they both reincarnated to change the world, Ramakrishna as
Avatar and Vivekananda the next best thing, Ishvarakoti.
Vivekananda and the other Heroes of Vedanta got yoga going in the West.
Are We Exploiting Yoga?
Many others followed. We all know the stories. Legendery yogis
astounding us, beguiling us, fascinating us, until today, it is almost
a part of the air we breathe. We have, on some level, integrated yoga
into our culture. Some Hindus are screaming we have stolen and
exploited it.
"You have to be a Hindu to teach yoga - to be a Guru!" one man wrote me.
He brought out the abuses of yoga we have wrought, like calling it
"power yoga" and giving courses on things we know not of. Here is his
letter, after a few sallies of his rage and my shock, it quieted down to:
RASA:
HELLO THERE! I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TELL ME SOME THINGS SO I CAN
UNDERSTAND. WHAT HAVE WESTERNERS DONE TO HINDUS, AND WHAT HAVE I DONE?
HOW CAN I BECOME A HINDU? DOES ONE HAVE TO BE HINDU TO TEACH YOGA OR
TO BE A GURU?
INLIGHT:
Thank you for your question. Non-Hindus have almost totally perverted
the many Yogas of Hinduism. Simply ask, What is Yoga? Of course, real
Yoga is "yuj Atmana, Brahman ca." There are several classic Yogas such
as: Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Raja Yoga and Jnana Yoga.
Just look at the phony "yoga" of today and all the craziness that has
been added to it like "ruff yoga," "power yoga" and of course all the
egotist that put their name before yoga. Just like any other religion,
OF COURSE, one must be a Hindu (or related sect) to teach the various
Yogas and to be a real Guru. You and others should know these
"common-sense" matters. Those interested in becoming a Hindu can do
so. It would require much study and commitment.
For me, "tantra yoga" comes to mind, in how couples empower one
another sexually, through yoga. Courses given at your local Church or
YMCA. All totally against the real thing. I received the following
letter - the first that made me laugh in months. The hilarity of it
is that I am a staunch supporter of celibacy:
Subject: THE SEARCH FOR SALVATION VIA TANTRIC PARTNERS
Namaste Rasa!
I visited your website, which gave me the impression you are a fellow
Tantric, hopefully a RasaTantric. If so, I am sure you can learn much
from me. I am always looking for a possible partner for Tantra. I take
the clinical approach instead of the romantic one, since I don't
believe in "arranged marriages" to strangers. A couple might find each
other like people shopping for a certain item. They get together with
no pressure for sex. If they fall in love or lust, so much the better,
but they are not coerced into it. If you would like to know me better,
let me know. I am still pondering the reason why you built up that
wonderful website of yours. Feel free to write something to the group
about Rasa Tantra.
I can see why Orthodox, right-handed yogis would be pissed! But they
are mad at me also - a woman of the west, anointed and chosen by great
yogis - as I cannot represent the East, they say. I have stolen it, I
do not know what it is about! I am misrepresenting it and myself, and
by this man's definition, all Westerners are thieves and crooks off
the Hindus.
Non-duality is New
But this is not exactly the subject of my article. The article is a
bit more on the mystical/spiritual realm, and let me get to it. What
is it that entranced us, sometimes frightened us, from yoga? It was a
type of non-duality. OK, friend Haarvi, I admit it is not total non
duality they brought, the kind where Ramakrishna goes into a six-month
trance and no longer tastes sugar but becomes it. (A discipline put
upon him by the wandering Advaita monk, Tota Puri.) Not quite that
deep are we falling, but we are accepting a God like no other God
we've had before, and that is the Atman. We always knew God was
within, but we never worshipped God that way! (There are exceptions
to this import of God - like the jubilant Hare Krishna's) - but the
main thrust that I see, from Vivekananda, to Yogananda, to Nityananda,
Muktananda and Maharshi Ramani, is the inner worship. Find God within
through meditation and initiation from your Guru, and continue
worshipping God as Self - the Atman.
There are many other ideas that seem new, and some, perhaps, are a
little different than Christianity, but this Atman thing is the big
standout. What is so bizzarre to us is that WE ARE GOD! Holy Cow!
We always saw God as separate, as either Jesus or Jehovah, and we also
have many titles of God mostly from the Old Testament. But never,
ever, did we actually see ourselves as part of the Eternal Stream,
total Infinity and Light, part and parcel of God, and having all the
same attributes and qualities of God. We always saw God as big,
ourselves as tiny, and our job was to worship God in humility and
respect. How could we be God ourselves? This mystery was the most
frightening and beguiling one.
How is Sainthood Perceived, East and West?
Now comes the next issue, and that is the way sainthood is perceived
in the East and the West, and how this has shaped the attitudes toward
God. Again, history is written or slanted in a way that the victors
want it known. Hagiographies are also written to conform with beliefs
of sainthood, so that, in the west, certain qualities and attributes
of saints are remembered and referenced. Other qualities, not so good
or less popular, are forgotten or ignored. Legends grow by
embellishing the stories and like fish tales, saints get bigger and
better the longer they are dead. (Give me a break. Most of them were
hated and persecuted while still living, but as soon as they were
dead, it was safe to love them.)
You sometimes wonder, how much of saint's lives is true. And this
goes with the East as much as the West.
But let us look at perception. In the East, I have observed there is
a certain way you check out if a saint is kosher or not. It comes to
samadhi. That is it. The keynote, the measure and the brand of
sainthood is samadhi. It is trance, absorption and abstraction.
Saints all go into trance and some stay for abnormal lengths of time,
and that shows, to the East, their spiritual strength. People begin
to believe in them, and the rest follows. They are by no means judged
by charity toward their neighbor. There is charity, but that is not
the measure. All things but trance are suspect as manifestations of
ego. You can watch a saint doing any number of charitable things,
like writing, reading, speaking, giving money, spending time and
energy on the needy - and all this is seen with a suspicious eye.
After all, he is doing these things to get attention, to win applause
and favor, to be loved. That ugly ego made him do it!
In the West, it is the opposite. Indeed, we have trance. This is
called Contemplation, and we had a big fad for contemplation and the
"interior life" in the medieval days. It has fallen off now, but
perhaps returned, strangely, through yoga and it's meditation. All
the great saints of the medieval days were famous for the results of
their contemplation or union with God - for the gifts of God, the
"kriyas." They had visions, voices, dreams, intimations, psychic
awareness or knowledge and wisdom, they had bilocation. They could do
healings and miracles. But these manifestations, although they are
marks of God, are not the true measure of a saint so sayeth the
Catholic Magisterium. They make a saint inspiring and colorful, but
to "them who know", are not the measure of holiness. The absolute
measure of sainthood is charity toward the neighbor. The more stories
you can tell of how a saint heroically sacrificed for a neighbor, the
more likely he or she will enter the portals of canonization. Along
with this goes humility, obedience, chastity and other moral virtues.
Also, our saints are not allowed to be eccentric - they must conform.
They must obey the Rule or rules. This is the OPPOSITE in the East.
Saints, gurus and holy souls walk by a different vina. They can be
as wierd as wierd can be - because they are considered above and
beyond the pale of mortal existence. (not a bad idea) Rules and
regulations put aside, they are free.
For you to gain recognition as Sage in India it is trance, trance,
trance. Love thy neighbor? Not if your head is in the Bhagavad Gita
and you are chanting the names of God. A woman could be in the pangs
of labor under a tree some yards away crying for help and you are
"allowed" to ignore her. Such things happen all the time in India - I
have read many stories. This is not to say there is no charity.
Ramakrishna's disciples set up numerous centers of spiritual relief
and help for plague victims, hospitals and orphanages and the like.
And many gurus and kind Hindus have done a great deal of good.
However, in general, it is accepted that you do not have to kill
yourself to love your neighbor because he has his karma, and you have
yours.
Here, we are not allowed the luxury of samadhi for extended periods of
time. We are expected to "work." True, contemplation and prayer are
work! Jesus said, it is "the better part", and it will not be taken
away from us. When a soul is absorbed in God to some degree - not in
a total non- dualistic trance, but in the interior life -
that soul has more power with God than a thousand lukewarm fellows.
In his prayer, the holy soul does magic for others.....but these are
rare birds. Most people can't stand to be alone for one hour, much
less a lifetime. They need action, and so the tendency is for "social
work." I read Muktananda many times laugh at "social work," because
it is not considered the activity of the most advanced souls.
Were the Lives of Saints Slanted One Way or Another?
Where does all this come together? It is my guess that the interior
lives of more recent Western saints have been passed over, ignored, in
favor of their active labor. They probably had some of the
experiences of the medievals, but the promotion of this is not
pursued. Psychology has told us that EVERYTHING IS THE MIND and so,
all krijas, mystical experiences, are suspect. (Psychology is saying
that we have built the image of God in our heads, and there it stays.
There is no EMPIRICAL evidence of anything beyond that, so this is
our imagination, our doing. And experiences of God? Voices, visions,
krijas? HYSTERIA!) Academics don't want the readers to think a saint
was whacky, so maybe they leave out the visions. Could this be
happening? But on the other hand, charity is acceptable in all
circles, a sign of health, so you push that out. The inner
absorption, then, for the West, has gone into decline, at best,
considered somewhat irrelevant. Even in our involvement with yoga, we
do not emphasize the supernatural. It brings peace of mind, we say,
stillness. No "peculiar" experiences need be confessed.
Putting street wisdom and shallow culture aside, the great souls all
know the truth, about both yoga and Christianity. They know, as in
the Song of Songs, that Intimacy, Oneness with God is the Highest
Favor of God. When prejudice against the supernatural in the West
subsides, you will see more of an emphasis on absorption or
contemplation. On the other hand, we might also be influencing the
Hindus toward more action.
Action vs Contemplation - Can the West Teach India?
India has now given us absorption. Yes, we once had it, but they are
reviving it. India has given us forms of non-dualism. Can we give
something to India? Can we give it action? Can we give it,
"Love thy neighbor as thyself?"
Of course, charity has always been in India just as contemplation has
always been with us, but in a recessive way on both counts. Can we
strengthen India by enouraging yogis to more good works?
Althought Jesus said to Martha,
"Martha, you are concerned about a number of things, but Mary
(Magdalene at His feet) has THE BETTER PART, and it shall not be taken
away from her."
Yes, Jesus taught that contemplation is superior. But yet, He is
remembered for His ACTION, especially His self-secrificing action.
And all the Christian saints, walking in His Bloody footsteps, have
vied for the opportunity to be martyrs. You will have none of that in
India. No Martyrdom, no Stigmata. That just ain't kosher. You have the
"I am the Spirit, not the body," mantra.
You have the road of abstraction, where the world fades away and the
pain of the neighbor is to be ignored - just as the body is ignored.
Here, with God, you have the better part. You partake of neither the
sweet, nor the bitter fruit of life, here in this samadhi or Nirvana,
where only God is real.
(To be honest, I am not talking about all individuals on both sides.
I am speaking of the example of saints, generalizing. In fact there
are as many a..holes on both sides, who do neither action nor
contemplation, and just may be on the broad highway to Hell....please
bear with me that I speak of saints and the trends they teach.)
If we can influence the East by the example of Mother Theresa of
Calcutta, we have helped. Mother did not quibble about karma. She
saw a woman dying in the street, whose wounds the dogs were licking.
She picked her up and took her to her tiny apartment, placing the
victim on the bed and herself on the floor. This was the beginning.
I heard one man say the difference between normal and "the saint" is
action. The normal does nothing, the saint takes action. Our
self-giving saint said she was not helping people FOR Jesus. They ARE
Jesus! I believe this is the highest form of God realization.
To me, the most perfect Math, the one I'd like to have, is that which
combines East and West. I want souls willing to practice meditation,
leading to Enlightenment. I want them also to understand that their
good works, although they are not yet perfect, will lead them to the
heights. "Heard say" you have to be perfect to teach. Yes, to teach
absolute perfection, it helps to have it. But you can demonstrate and
teach goodness on various levels. Always share what you know with
those who know less. You can give love, after all, even when you know
nothing except that GOD IS LOVE. If everyone has to reach
Enlightenment before doing good.....you understand.
http://www.womanthouartgod.com/yoga.php
I would like to thank Haarvi and Harvey Erickson for discussing these
issues with me and sharing their valuable comments.
Rasa Von Werder
July 3, 2005
1212 From: "david_obsidian1" <david_obsidian1@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 11:46am
Subject: Re: CAN EAST AND WEST SHARE THE SAME MATH? david_obsidian1
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Hello Rasa,
thanks for your post.
Let me throw in to the soup another reason for the differences
between East and West on these matters --
I think another reason is simply that 'the West' was largely ignorant
about enlightenment, and therefore its ideals are not informed by
enlightenment, while those of the East are.
And the Christian church (and to a certain extent the judaism by
which it was influenced) had, in the large part, awful taboos and
fears that kept it that way. To take one example, because sexuality
is involved in enlightenment almost inevitably, if someone thinks
that sex is fiendish, how can someone go far in the path of
enlightenment without thinking they are being 'attacked by the devil'?
And we do have stories of Christian saints being 'attacked by the
devil' and I think it was nothing more in certain cases than their
sexuality rising and trying to integrate. And of course it can't
work unless they embrace it, so they get blocked.
There's more though, it isn't all about sex. I mean, as a person
starts to penetrate the non-dual, the 'exclusiveness' ('we are the
only ones with the truth, follow us or be damned') of the main body
of historical Christianity becomes absurd. So there are all sorts of
growth that enlightenment will give you that will clash with an
exclusive-dogmatic erophobic church.
Best regards,
-David
1215 From: Randy Callaway <randycallaway@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 1:15pm
Subject: Re: Re: CAN EAST AND WEST SHARE THE SAME MATH? randycallaway
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Another reason for the different approaches on the path, we in the west have been brought up to want to "know" while in the east they have been brought up to want to "believe". Cultural, economic and religous forces have shaped these two different approaches, but they strongly influence two different approaches.
david_obsidian1 <david_obsidian1@yahoo.com> wrote:Hello Rasa,
thanks for your post.
Let me throw in to the soup another reason for the differences
between East and West on these matters --
I think another reason is simply that 'the West' was largely ignorant
about enlightenment, and therefore its ideals are not informed by
enlightenment, while those of the East are.
And the Christian church (and to a certain extent the judaism by
which it was influenced) had, in the large part, awful taboos and
fears that kept it that way. To take one example, because sexuality
is involved in enlightenment almost inevitably, if someone thinks
that sex is fiendish, how can someone go far in the path of
enlightenment without thinking they are being 'attacked by the devil'?
And we do have stories of Christian saints being 'attacked by the
devil' and I think it was nothing more in certain cases than their
sexuality rising and trying to integrate. And of course it can't
work unless they embrace it, so they get blocked.
There's more though, it isn't all about sex. I mean, as a person
starts to penetrate the non-dual, the 'exclusiveness' ('we are the
only ones with the truth, follow us or be damned') of the main body
of historical Christianity becomes absurd. So there are all sorts of
growth that enlightenment will give you that will clash with an
exclusive-dogmatic erophobic church.
Best regards,
-David
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