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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - May 31 2007 : 2:10:44 PM
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Gah, Anthem... I wish I could just listen to my heart also. But it is like it doesn't hear when I'm asking...
... which reminds me of a total darling quote of mine, from "The Tao of Pooh" (my poor translation):
"If someone seems not to be listening to you, it's probably just because he's got some fluff in his ear."
Wolfgang,
That is truly great advice! Thank you! I do see it as more general advice, though. I find it somewhat hard to understand how it would make me get in better touch with my feelings. At second thought... It might have quite a lot to do with it...
I do believe in getting more in touch with feelings. Getting enlightened is not about getting less human (getting non-emotional about things), it is about getting MORE FULLY HUMAN, and that includes being able to feel emotions, but not tell stories about them, as Katrine uses to say. To let them flow through you. My pain comes from emotions that are not allowed to be felt!!!! The body gets tense, I feel uneasy and I mess up my communication with those around me. Somehow I have to find ways to relax, to allow whatever feeling.
I have noticed something today - when I feel tense I ask myself why I try to lie to myself - what is AT STAKE? What can I possibly loose by being honest to at least MYSELF first of what I actually feel? And then I can find an allowing athmosphere in my mind, which sometimes brings the feeling along. I allow myself to be envious, hateful, superior, inferior... everything is okey. That is actually new to me. I have first been so much the "good girl", and now I have been so much the "good spiritual seeker". It just builds tension when I try to hide myself from myself.
That is about not judging or critizing myself etc.. the advice you gave. Do I get it the way you meant it? |
Edited by - emc on May 31 2007 2:13:23 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2007 : 10:57:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
...that includes being able to feel emotions, but not tell stories about them, as Katrine uses to say.
Hi emc and Katrine,
I may not be getting this. What do you mean?
B.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2007 : 03:58:18 AM
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Katrine has described this in many threads, for example like this in thread
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1489
quote:
Yes.....I have allowed a lot of pain to surface. Living in a body implies being hurt. Pain can't be avoided.
But - "healing myself from old wounds" - who is healing who? What I am and you are, cannot be wounded. Only mind and body can suffer pain. Suffering occurs the instant I start to tell stories about the pain I feel. The instant my mind goes into activity during pain (whether emotional or physical pain) I prolong pain. Two things happen: I miss the moment (where all healing takes place) and the mental activity suppresses whatever emotional flow is there. So it accumulates. This is how pain leaves scars. The traces of pain is because of the story we tell about it. Otherwise it would come....be felt....watched....and then be gone. If I can manage to be silently with the pain it is possible to disidentify from it. Even chronic pain can be disidentified from. I am not pain - pain is not my ultimate nature. Love is.
To be alive is to be vulnerable. Excruciatingly vulnerable. If I could manage to not prolong a hurt by mental activity....but simply watch it come and go....then all of a sudden there were no traces. And the less traces (memory...images...stories)....the less....adhesive tape for the "hurts" to hook on to. Gradually less and less identification with hurt. But also - the more vulnerable - the deeper the pain. And: The more vulnerable - the greater the love.
Another quote
quote:
Emotional pain can be felt and released. But if you link the pain to mental images or stories, you prolong it. Stop talking about the pain. When the pain is released - and right before you start talking again - you are in a gap. This gap is NOW.
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Edited by - emc on Jun 01 2007 04:02:50 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2007 : 06:59:46 AM
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Hi All
quote:
don't critisize myself so much,
don't judge myself
don't try so hard to improve myself
don't try so much to be perfect
Wolfgang - as much as I long for the wanted outcome of these directions......in recent years I have come to see that these are the ways I try to kill my ego. I have tried it......for years. It did not work.
They are not wrong......I know what you mean by them.....but they didn't work for me.
What is working (for me) - and this is also a response to your longing to get in touch with your feelings, emc....(you know; how to "do" it - you understand it already, as your post tells) - is (if I can use your directions, Wolfgang):
watch myself critisize myself so much,
watch myself judge myself
watch myself try so hard to improve myself
watch myself try so much to be perfect
and then
allow the feelings surfacing within, due to what I see. Allow the deep sorrow of the state of things. Allow every emotion surfacing because of what I see.
at the same time as I don't
talk about it (for instance: judge what I see (good or bad)), translate it into any mental concept, wander off into stories of how I have felt this before etc.
In short: to allow instead of forcefully do.
To be able to stand the state of things, I need the compassion of inner silence. Otherwise; I crumble under my own weight (at least this is what it feels like to me). Deep meditation strengthens (deepens) the contact with inner silence. Also - it is only the intelligence of inner silence that has the ability to confront me with the settings/situations needed in order for me to become aware of these "reactional tracks". I can let it. This is a conscious choice.
Say yes! Then inner silence supplies me with both of the below:
quote:
accept and love myself
trust in higher guidance
I don't "do" these either. They are a natural result of the surrender to the state of things.
quote:
I wish I could just listen to my heart also. But it is like it doesn't hear when I'm asking...
Yes, emc. I know what this feels like. But if I - my head - ask the questions - then I may still swim in doubt and confusion over the many answers I get. My head is not my center. If the questions are motivated from the head...then the answers are diverse. It has to be so....since my head is depthless.
If i - my heart - ask........then there is always an answer. Only one answer. It may not be the one I (my head) want; but I can be sure it is the one I need for further understanding.
In order to ask from the heart, I must be in the heart. For me - to be in the heart means to be open, vulnerable, naked and true. Whether what is here is "good" or "bad". Just the acceptance of what is. And the willingness....the intention to understand....for the sake of something that is greater than myself.
Any moment anywhere .......exhibits the truth of who i am.
Patience, patience and some more patience (in addition to whichever "route" we travel when it comes to spiritual sadhana) is needed for me to gradually come to terms with reality.
The more i see.....the less i doubt. And the greater the aspiration to merge with Love, Truth and Clarity.
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Edited by - Katrine on Jun 01 2007 07:04:25 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2007 : 07:56:48 AM
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I think Katrine is not disagreeing at all with the directives Wolfgang wrote. Instead I think she is showing how one can accomplish those things without trying to follow the words, because that doesn't work.
Just my 1/2 cent. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2007 : 08:13:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Hi All
quote:
don't critisize myself so much,
don't judge myself
don't try so hard to improve myself
don't try so much to be perfect
watch myself critisize myself so much,
watch myself judge myself
watch myself try so hard to improve myself
watch myself try so much to be perfect
and then
allow the feelings surfacing within, due to what I see. Allow the deep sorrow of the state of things. Allow every emotion surfacing because of what I see.
at the same time as I don't
talk about it (for instance: judge what I see (good or bad)), translate it into any mental concept, wander off into stories of how I have felt this before etc.
In short: to allow instead of forcefully do.
I agree with Ether.. You are both saying the same thing.. just different perspectives.. Don't judge yourself and watch myself judge myself are the same thing.. the first is like an instruction.. the second is actually doing it.. because when you watch yourself judge yourself.. you will see the pattern in it.. and once you see you can let it go.. then the instruction don't judge yourself will be very easy to understand. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2007 : 11:48:46 AM
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Katrine wrote: "In short: to allow instead of forcefully do."
This is a necessary key to peace. Acceptance of things that will always arise. There is no controling of what arises in the interface of you and the world. Judging these reactions brings more entanglement. Allow them to be and watch them rise and pass and you will notice that they begin to lose their power over you. The reactions will become more benign if you don't invest energy in them. You are not these passing reactions. You are not the scenes in the story that cause these reactions. You are watching them rise and fall as a part of the story. There is no leaving or changing the story, it is what is. It is not who you are. |
Edited by - Balance on Jun 01 2007 1:20:27 PM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2007 : 1:24:01 PM
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Thank you Katrine, emc, Shanti, Balance.
I feel deep love from your posts 
surrender and allowing, that is the "doing" 
Currently I am only puzzled how much we are interconnected ... |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2007 : 08:31:09 AM
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I attended a brilliant seminar yesterday with Leonard Jacobssen, http://www.leonardjacobson.com/ .
He had a trick to get out of the grip of emotions when they get you to belive in them: Exaggerate them! If you are irritated - get more irritated to really allow it. After a while it will dissolve and go into laughter when you can't help watching what the feeling is doing with you when you believe it. It helps you get a distance to it.
He also said something very important, which was a great key for me:
If you learn to cultivate the stillness - fine! You can get excellent in finding a thoughtless state in meditation and perhaps in daily life. But that alone will not do the trick. You will have learned to become a cow.  Beautiful. But if you don't know your ego, your mind, your thoughts and feelings that is constantly doing its best to drag you out of presence, you are always gonna flip flop in and out of the stillness. They gonna catch you easily. One key is to cultivate stillness. The other key is to get to know who you have become by conditioning, and you have to become the master over the influences from the body/mind. Not mastery by any kind of force. By knowledge. )In order to be a master, you have to learn about ALL your bagage, all suppressed feelings have to be allowed and known. All judgements you have must be seen and understood. So he talked a lot about the importance of letting all feelings surface, in a responsible way.
And that is the link to NVC. NVC is a method to train to discover your own feelings and then take responsability for them and communicate them in a responsible way. That is my big insight. Stillness is working on development by default. But there is no escape from seeing and living all your feelings. They do not disappear. They are human life. And we are supposed to enjoy them. I guess I will when I can let them pass through without stories.
Interestingly, he also said exactly what I wrote above: You have to at least CONFESS your feelings. If not to someone else, to GOD, to your self, or your higher self. Don't lie to yourself at least. To confess anger, jealousy, greed, everything, you get immediate tension reduction and can more easy come back to stillness. |
Edited by - emc on Jun 02 2007 08:33:28 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2007 : 08:08:37 AM
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I think this is an explanation of why Yogani teaches we must return to interaction with society in between meditation practices.
This is why isolating yourself from society doesn't usually do a good job of enlightening you. Because baggage is usually stored in response to interaction with others, and is often forgotten in solitude. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2007 : 09:37:07 AM
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EMC said:
He had a trick to get out of the grip of emotions when they get you to belive in them: Exaggerate them! If you are irritated - get more irritated to really allow it. After a while it will dissolve and go into laughter when you can't help watching what the feeling is doing with you when you believe it. It helps you get a distance to it.
Yes, that's a great one. I also see it as a counter-neuroticism practice.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2007 : 12:28:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
....this is an explanation of why Yogani teaches we must return to interaction with society in between meditation practices.
...baggage is usually stored in response to interaction with others, and is often forgotten in solitude.
I doubt it. I doubt that promoting awareness of stored baggage is Yogani's reason for recommending service to society. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2007 : 12:33:31 PM
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| "service to society" is a different subject than returning to interaction with people in between practices. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2007 : 12:42:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Katrine has described this in many threads, for example...
Suffering occurs the instant I start to tell stories about the pain I feel.
Are there not stories worth telling? Novels worth reading? Dramas worth watching? Memoirs worth publishing? Personal events worth recalling and rehashing?
The aim ought not be to eliminate stories, in my opinion, but to witness our stories of sorrow and joy in ways that promote a more compassionate perspective. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2007 : 12:46:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
"service to society" is a different subject than returning to interaction with people in between practices.
OK, I'll rephrase. I doubt that promoting awareness of stored baggage is Yogani's reason for recommending returning to interaction with people in between practices. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2007 : 2:28:47 PM
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Oh, you did mean that. In my opinion, getting rid of stored baggage is easier than it sounds when you say "promoting awareness". For me, at least, when I interact with people in between practices, I adopt an increasingly more tolerant and less stressful stance. For me, this tends to get rid of stored baggage because I watch old tendencies pop up and let go of them.
So while it technically promotes awareness, i feel aloof and relaxed instead of digging deep like you might do under psychotherapy.
Don't know about anyone else. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2007 : 5:51:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
So while it technically promotes awareness, i feel aloof and relaxed instead of digging deep like you might do under psychotherapy.
Thanks, that rings more true to me. |
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