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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 09:13:06 AM
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Hi Jill,
quote:
I hope I have not offended you because my experience has been different.
I certainly can't imagine how you could have offended me! What you experience is what you experience. 
quote:
All I can say is I have personally witnessed Theravadans, Vipassana people and others discourage even knowing about jhanas let alone practicing them. I have also spoken with many others who have had similar experiences. I am glad your experience has been supportive and hope that things are changing (I think they are) due to a more open access to information.
The jhanas happen naturally when we meditate. At a certain point, we enter them. They are states of meditative absorption that happen when the discursive mind (thought stream) is transcended. There are 4 jhanas, but sometimes each jhana is divided into two, making 8 Jhanas. Buddhists like dividing things  . The jhanas are a natural part of meditation, and part of the journey towards enlightenment. They are very beautiful, and are characterized by experiences of joy, bliss, light, peace and expansive awareness. As I mentioned above, the Buddha talked a lot about the Jhanas and about the importance of their place in the Path. It is all there in the Pali Cannon for anyone to read.... no secrets. This website certainly isn't the first open source teaching system .
I assume you have had experiences of the jhanas which is why you are so interested in them. I really cannot imagine why any Buddhists would discourage even knowing about them, or practicing them? Maybe they discourage practicing them without a competent teacher available? Are you talking about the Goenka Vipassana Buddhists?
Luckily this is an open source forum... so we can talk about Bliss and Love and Ecstasy and as many jhanas as we want as much as we like. This is the stuff of enlightenment. We are the change that we are looking for.
Anyways... if you want to read all about the Jhanas, and want to hear a genuine Buddhist (Yogi) Monk  talking about Bliss, Joy and much more, here is Ajahn Brahmavamso on the jhanas:
http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/..._Brahmavamso
He is a monk from the tradition of Lung Por Cha, the monk that I told the story about above. He is talking about the 4 jhana system, and he takes you up to entry into the Third Jhana. Let the Bliss relax...
quote:
The Buddha used a term "jhana" to describe altered states of consciousness that a seeker traverses on the path to Enlightenment, but the jhanas have been demonized by much of orthodox Buddhism.
I wonder if this arose due to the idea that the spiritual aspirant would become addicted to these elevated spiritual states, instead of using them as a tool for the development of wisdom. Some believe that the higher jhanas bring about an intense clarity of mind, which allows us to be able to differentiate the real from the unreal. They say that it is this differentiation that brings about enlightenment (freedom from the realm of Samsara), and not attachment to states of absorption, however Blissful, or peaceful, or filled with Love or Light.
I believe that the Buddha himself was of this school of thought. But demonizing the jhanas isn't going to help. He was quite clear that they need to be developed to the point where the aspirant can enter any of the jhanas at will and maintain that state for as long as desired.
But we don't need to worry about the fine points of the final stages of awakening right now... when we are having so much fun!
 
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Apr 17 2007 09:08:31 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 10:19:36 AM
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I wonder if this arose due to the idea that the spiritual aspirant would become addicted to these elevated spiritual states, instead of using them as a tool for the development of wisdom.
Christi, I would surmise that that is exactly what happened. There are some things that are very powerful and useful but also so attractive that it is found necessary to associate them with strong cautions and warnings. Sometimes the strong cautioning about that powerful thing is misinterpreted as saying that that powerful thing is bad. And so the culture can then propagate that misinterpretation.
The same pattern holds for sex actually. Sex is so powerful and necessary but also so attractive that every culture finds it necessary have a strong cautioning mentality towards it. Sometimes that plays out as a notion that there is something wrong with sex or bad about it.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 1:40:23 PM
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Mike,
BTW, we all make mistakes on the forum. So, while Christi and I felt it was in place to show you your mistake, we are not writing as if we are people who have not made our own. I don't think your mistake is a big deal any more than mine were, and I hope you don't either.
Enjoy AYP!
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 2:07:49 PM
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david_obsidian: BTW, we all make mistakes on the forum.
So true, not to mention the ones that I make daily: 
VIL |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 3:20:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Jill,
I assume you have had experiences of the jhanas which is why you are so interested in them. I really cannot imagine why any Buddhists would discourage even knowing about them, or practicing them? Maybe they discourage practicing them without a competent teacher available? Are you talking about the Goenka Vipassana Buddhists?
Yes among others.
quote:
Luckily this is an open source forum... so we can talk about Bliss and Love and Ecstasy and as many jhanas as we want as much as we like. This is the stuff of enlightenment. We are the change that we are looking for.
That is why I like it here.
quote:
I wonder if this arose due to the idea that the spiritual aspirant would become addicted to these elevated spiritual states, instead of using them as a tool for the development of wisdom.
That's their story and they are sticking to it. However the word addicted is a mistranslation, I believe, the real translation is "intoxicated" and the Buddha said that is correct, not to deny it (as opposed to being intoxicated with the senses, etc.) To be intoxicated means being absorbed or saturated (many liquid metaphores) in a state which is wholesome and wonderful and very healing. The idea of addiction is certain to prevent a seeker from attaining the higher states of mind.
quote:
I believe that the Buddha himself was of this school of thought. But demonizing the jhanas isn't going to help. He was quite clear that they need to be developed to the point where the aspirant can enter any of the jhanas at will and maintain that state for as long as desired.
But we don't need to worry about the fine points of the final stages of awakening right now... when we are having so much fun!
Well said. 
Many happy blessings,
Jill |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2007 : 09:49:50 AM
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| Could anyone recommend a book (or any other resource) that would explain jhanas in straightforward language? The more I read the more I realise how little I know! I am grateful to people who post here for sharing their opinions and experiences. |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2007 : 09:57:25 AM
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| Sorry, christi, I see you have already recommended a www.resource. Apologies for not reading all posts carefully enough. Is there a simple book, though (for Jhana beginners) that doesn't go into too much technical detail at the start? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2007 : 02:48:17 AM
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Hi Jill,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Jill,
I assume you have had experiences of the jhanas which is why you are so interested in them. I really cannot imagine why any Buddhists would discourage even knowing about them, or practicing them? Maybe they discourage practicing them without a competent teacher available? Are you talking about the Goenka Vipassana Buddhists?
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Yes among others.
Hi Jill,
I cannot comment on the “others” as I don’t know who they are, but I do know a little about vipassana and the Goenka vipassana method of Buddhism. This system of Buddhism has been causing a lot of confusion lately, and not only about the jhanas.
Goenka vipassana comes out of the Burmese meditation tradition. Goenka brought the system to India (he is an Indian) and from there it has spread all over the world. It is a particular style of Buddhist teaching which is actually quite advaita, even though the emphasis is on sitting meditation techniques.
Three meditation techniques are taught: concentration of awareness on the breath at the tip of the nose (anapanasati), a very slow body sweeping technique (vipassana) which forms the core of the practice, and a heart chakra (metta) meditation. They used to teach a crown chakra meditation as well but there were too many drastic premature kundalini blow-outs so they stopped teaching that one.
Everything that can be experienced during any of these meditations is described as a sensation, and as nothing else. As far as I can tell, that really means everything; kundalini awakenings, energy movements, lights, sounds, absorbtions in samadhi states (jhanas), vibrations, emotions… everything. Practitioners are told not to call these things by any other name other than the name “sensation”. Furthermore, practitioners are told that they cannot create sensations. So (logically according to this teaching) we cannot create or affect any aspect of the manifest universe. Everything that we experience arises, independently of ourselves, and ceases to be, independently of ourselves, whilst we remain the eternal witness to everything.
The teaching seems to me to be designed to push the practitioner continuously back to his or her Self beyond the mind. In Yoga we call this Self the akshara Purusha or kutastha Purusha(the witness consciousness), and the teaching is of the form “Neti … Neti”, “not this… not this”. It brings us back to identification with our true Self (our Buddha Nature).
So the Goenka vipassana meditators do not deny the existence of jhanas, in fact the meditations seem to be designed to take the practitioner into the jhanas (Samadhi states) as fast as possible. They run retreats where everyone has to sit in meditation for 10 hours a day, for 10 days and remain in silence the whole time whilst listening to the most amazing Pali chanting ever imagined. Anapanasati is designed to bring the mind to a single point of focus (ekaggata), the body sweeping takes us out of the head, purifies the nadis, opens the chakras and activates the subtle nervous system; and the Metta Bavana meditation swings our heart centre open in an continuous outpouring of divine love. It would be very hard not to be absorbed in second jhana (at least) after all that. It’s just that they won’t use the word “jhana” because it is a sensation (or set of sensations). They also won’t use the word “energy”. It’s just a style of teaching and has nothing to do with a denial of, or acceptance of Samadhi states (jhanas), or anything else as far as I can see.
The problems seem to be arising from the fact that this isn’t made very clear to anyone that this is the teaching style, either when they embark on their first vipassana meditation (10 day) retreat, or even much later down the line. People who have been practicing for several years seem to still be coming up against this one. I know people who have experienced full blown kundalini awkenings, had their whole world turned upside down, had celestial visions, visitations by divine beings, thought they were going mad, watched their relationships fall apart around them, felt that they were losing connection with this physical plane, and when they approached their Goenka vipassana meditation teacher for help, they were told not to say the word energy, that it was all just sensations, and to simply be aware of it.
Well… personally I think westerners (and possibly Asians as well) need a little more hand holding than that. But maybe I’m just too soft. But, hand-holding aside, as a teaching method, it is sound. In terms of practice though, I don’t really see where the grounding element is, which could explain why I have met so many spaced out Goenka vipassana meditators! And as far as 10 hours of meditation practices every day for 10 consecutive days goes… it isn’t immediately apparent where the self-pacing element comes in! Which could explain to some extent why they are still getting many premature kundalini blowouts, even though they have taken the direct crown practices out .
As I said above, I don’t know about the other Buddhists who don’t want to talk about the jhanas, but maybe it is for similar reasons? Or maybe they really do fear them!
quote:
Jill wrote:
That's their story and they are sticking to it. However the word addicted is a mistranslation, I believe, the real translation is "intoxicated" and the Buddha said that is correct, not to deny it (as opposed to being intoxicated with the senses, etc.) To be intoxicated means being absorbed or saturated (many liquid metaphores) in a state which is wholesome and wonderful and very healing. The idea of addiction is certain to prevent a seeker from attaining the higher states of mind.
Well... Nandhi happily uses the word addicted when talking about absorption in higher states of consciousness. See here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2298#19345
So he (at least) isn't worried about using that term. In fact, he doesn't seem to be worried about very much at all.
It is also an interesting discussion about the question of whether or not jhana states (samadhis) lead directly to enlightenment, simply by making them our normal and permanent condition of consciousness, or whether enlightenment is something that is more easily realized when our mind is continuously absorbed in the akshara purusha (sahaja samadhi). In that discussion Nandhi argues for the former and I argue for the latter. We have to remember of course, that when we are in these jhanas, duality itself (and the normally assumed nature of phenomenal existence along with it) starts to look like an extremely questionable concept (1st 2nd and 3rd jhanas), and just plain out of the window (4th jhana). So whereas in the mental plane it seems like one position in an argument must be right, and the other wrong, above the mental plane (entry into the jhanas) things start merging quite beautifully. So what appeared to be two opposing stances (thinking of both the schism that occurred soon after the Buddhas death in relation to the jhanas and to my (linked to above) discussion with Nandhi), may in fact be just two aspects of the same Truth.
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Apr 19 2007 03:37:44 AM |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2007 : 03:41:31 AM
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Hi Christi, and Jill,
I've noticed the confusion caused by the the Goenka system as well. I think one of the main problems lies in the fact that most people coming into Goenka's teaching are relative newcomers, to any sort of contemplative practice. Therefore, they're rather uneducated in Buddhist doctrine and terminology - despite the fact that Goenka insist that he isn't teaching Buddhism, anyone that's familiar with it knows full well that he is - and just accept Goenka's definitions without question.
One may assert that these are just mundane labels for supra-mundane experience, and, therefore, of no real importance. However, I would like to point out that acquiring wisdom and knowledge, and developing discernment, is also part of Awakening - I can't think of any good teacher that wants his/her students to become Enlightened simpletons, that can't articulate their experience.
Some examples of Goenka's 'twisting' of Buddhist doctrine would be as follows: That body scanning technique, that Goenka insist on calling "Vipassana," was actually referred to by the Buddha as Kayagatasati (mindfulness of the body). And, what Goenka insist on calling "Anapana," was referred to as Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing) by the Buddha. (Some might say that I'm nit-picking here, but it does make a difference. I can Anapana (inhale and exhale) all day long. However, if I'm not mindful (Sati) of it, I'm unlikely to get anywhere in terms of Awakening.) Also, all of these so-called sensations, that Goenka likes to harp on about, were given very specific terms by the Buddha, as they all have distinct aspects to them; be it Pitti (Bliss), Sukha (Happiness or Pleasure), Vriya (Energy), Samadhi/Jhana (Absorption) or whatever. Therefore, Goenka's insistence on lumping all of these various elements, aspects and components together, under a few vague terms, is bound to confuse the hell out of people.
I can see why Goenka's devotees would start denying things that they haven't been educated about. As, for them, it just doesn't seem to exist, unless Goenka says so.
However, I do agree with Christi that Goenka's devotees do occasionally stumble upon Jhana and it's associated phenomena. As a matter of fact, on another forum I used to frequent - Jill is aware of it also - we had several of them come on reporting all the manifestations of Jhana, but not having a clue as to what they were experiencing. Because, either no one in Goenka's camp would tell them, or his 'assistant teachers' were just too uneducated to realize what it truly was, and, therefore, couldn't inform them. However, the AT's seem to be quite willing to make something up to save face. For example, I've heard of Goenka's AT's telling people to 'ignore all that', in reference to the characteristics of Samadhi/Jhana. Or, they'll tell people to 'just ignore it and pay attention to your object of meditation' - which will ensure that one wont progress beyond first Jhana.
In terms of new contemplatives running into serious problems while on Goenka retreats, I can see why this happens. For one thing, insisting that newcomers meditate for 11 hours per day - granted they do have short breaks here and there - is just asking for serious problems to arise - I wouldn't recommend this sort of strenuous practice regimen for anyone but advanced contemplatives. And, even then, I would make it optional, not mandatory. Also, they are poorly instructed, from what I experienced during my brief stay at a 10 day Goenka retreat: there was absolutely no mention made of relaxing one's mind and body, and then proceeding back to the initial object, when one becomes tense; no mention of practicing sensitive to joy and pleasure - which goes a long way toward alleviating tension and boredom.
Peace,
Nirodha
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Edited by - Nirodha on Apr 22 2007 09:18:22 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2007 : 07:38:52 AM
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Hi HM,
quote:
Could anyone recommend a book (or any other resource) that would explain jhanas in straightforward language? The more I read the more I realise how little I know! I am grateful to people who post here for sharing their opinions and experiences.
I am afraid I do not know of any great books about the Jhanas, either describing the different states or how to enter them, in simple language. I was hoping that someone else on the forum would come up with one... any offers? I would also be very interested in such a book/ website.
quote:
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Sorry, christi, I see you have already recommended a www.resource. Apologies for not reading all posts carefully enough. Is there a simple book, though (for Jhana beginners) that doesn't go into too much technical detail at the start?
Yes, I did find that page, but I agree, it is a bit technical if you are not used to Pali. I would be happy to share what little I know here, but if someone else has already produced a laymans guide to Jhanas and Jhana entry then there is no need to duplicate knowledge.
Any resources?
Christi
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2007 : 10:29:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi HM,
quote:
Could anyone recommend a book (or any other resource) that would explain jhanas in straightforward language? The more I read the more I realise how little I know! I am grateful to people who post here for sharing their opinions and experiences.
I am afraid I do not know of any great books about the Jhanas, either describing the different states or how to enter them, in simple language. I was hoping that someone else on the forum would come up with one... any offers? I would also be very interested in such a book/ website.
Hi HM and Christi,
Here's a couple of essays, by my former teacher, that I've found very useful:
Jhána as defined in the Buddha's Discourses by Jhanananda
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhana.html
Recognizing [Meditative] Absorption by Jhanananda
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/...sorption.htm
This one, however, a newcomer will probably find the most useful:
An Experiential Look at the Phenomena of Meditative Absorption by Jhanananda
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/...ialjhana.htm
And, if one is interested, here's an excerpt from the Discourses of the Buddha:
"Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first first absorption (jhana): bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal, accompanied by applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára). He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal."
"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder becomes saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body that is not pervaded by bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness of the body."
"And furthermore, with the stilling of applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára), he enters and remains in the second jhana, with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of tranquility, unification of awareness free from applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára) and with internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of tranquility."
"Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south (1), and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake not pervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of tranquility. There is nothing of his entire body not pervaded by bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of tranquility. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness of the body."
"And furthermore, with the fading of joy (sukha), he remains in equanimity, mindful and alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure (piti). He enters and remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous and mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the bliss (piti) divested of joy (sukha)."
"Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be not pervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the bliss (piti) divested of joy (sukha). There is nothing of his entire body not pervaded with bliss (piti) divested of joy (sukha). And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness of the body."
"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure (sukha) and pain (dukkha)-- as with the earlier disappearance of elation and anxiety -- he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, with neither pleasure (sukha) nor pain (dukkha). He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness."
"Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body not pervaded by pure, bright awareness. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness on the body."
Excerpted from the Kayagatasati Sutta (MN 119) - Mindfulness of the Body
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/...gatasati.htm
I'm in the process of writing an essay on how to enter meditative absorption (Samadhi/Jhana), that I hope to post within a week or two. It's written in very simple language that anyone with a grade school education will be able to understand. I'm actually writing it for my mother - although I will share it with others - who is a contemplative Christian that did not complete high school. So, if she can follow it, I'm sure anyone else will be able to as well.
Peace,
Nirodha |
Edited by - Nirodha on Apr 23 2007 10:42:31 AM |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2007 : 1:38:51 PM
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| Thank you Christi and Nirodha for the sources and links quoted. What a great resource we have here in this Forum and the knowledge base of its members! I look forward to your essay, Nirodha. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2007 : 09:10:57 AM
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Hi Nirodha,
Wow... thanks for a great post. I will have to study it in detail when I have more time.
I too look forward to reading your essay.
Christi |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2007 : 10:03:27 AM
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Hi hopelessmeditator and Christi,
You're both very welcome. At least here I can openly talk about this stuff. If I try this on most so-called Buddhist forums I usually get censored and/or banned after a short time - very strange, especially considering the fact that the Buddha mentions Samadhi/Jhana literally thousands of times in his discourses. Oh, well. ;)
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2007 : 10:11:52 AM
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Hi All:
I'm enjoying this discussion very much also. Many connection points. Good food for thought and inspiration for practice, regardless of one's chosen path.
Thank you!
The guru is in you. |
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 5:53:19 PM
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Just in case anyone is mislead into believing that Jeffrey Brooks (aka) "jhanananda" is a representative of any Buddhist organization other than his own here is a snip from his home page at http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhanananda.html (my emboldening)
quote:
PLEASE NOTE: Jhanananda (Jeffrey S. Brooks) is not affiliated with any lineage, teaching, method, tradition, religion or ideology other than his own; he is not part of any movement or organization other than his own, nor has he been sent out by anyone to teach. Jhanananda is an independent contemplative mystic, writer, teacher, speaker, artist and poet who has no spiritual affiliation of any kind other than with his own organization, the Great Western Vehicle. He has no guru, nor is he endorsed by one. He is not anyone’s disciple, devotee, representative or student.
Sadly for all his achievements he appears to - how can I put this politely? - 'not entirely fit the general understanding of modest and self-unassuming' that is the case with high-level Buddhist practitioners (think HHDL eg). He is only too anxious to promote his achievements:
quote:
About Jhanananda
Sotapanna (stream winner) Jhanananda (Jeffrey S. Brooks) is a self-ordained Western Buddhist monk in the Great Western Vehicle...
He has, however, been ostracized from the lay and monastic Buddhist community because he speaks openly about his personal experiences with meditative absorption (jhana/kundalini). The orthodox monastic community believes this is a serious violation of the monastic code (Vinaya). Jhanananda believes it is all too easy for a mediocre monk, nun, priest, minister or lay meditation teacher to hide behind these monastic rules that came centuries after the Buddha had left this Earth, and seem to have been instituted only to favor the mediocre non-contemplative community (sangha)...
In addition to acquiring and sustaining the various spiritual attainments (phala), such as Out-Of-Body (OOB) skills, various charismatic phenomena including clairvoyance and clairaudience, the tranquility and equanimity of “No Mind,” and the 8 meditative absorption states (jhanas) he has also mastered many of the meditation practices (magga) of these contemplative traditions.
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on Apr 30 2007 9:20:51 PM |
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 6:04:38 PM
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Back to the question of authentic books by authentic Buddhists (and as was said earlier Goenka does not claim to be a Buddhist or teach Buddhism).... This (by Ajahn Brahm a pupil of the renowned Ajahn Chah - you were very close Christi to answering your own question ) is by far the best (IMO) http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-B...67194&sr=1-1
So this perception of persecution and taboo that Mr Brooks sees is rather odd.
Here is another reference by a highly respected monk on jhanas - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...numbers.html
Frankly there is plenty of authentic material by the sangha (monks) on the net. As to controversy there is little in the Theravada (other than the perennial question of the "right" ratio of calmness:insight meditation (a futile question)). As for the Mahayana, Vajrayana, Zen, Pure Land etc the whole issue starts to get clouded by changes in approach.
The principle Buddhist point to be made is that the arupa jhanas (formless realms) dispell (so I am told) any residual notion of a self. All jhanas - even if they are blissful states) are nevertheless impermanent, not-self, dukkha (and so are not Nirvana). However insight meditation practiced after jhanic slowing/calming of the mind is said to be a thousandfold better than without.
Here is a story from an online mp3 given by Brahm which gives a feel for the depth of the jhanic states (there are lots of mp3s/mp4s on the BSWA site - esp re jhanas)
quote:
In an mp3 talk on jhanas given in June 2003 (cant find the link now and he has 165 talks on his website ) he tells the story of a student of his who was meditating...
...for quite a long time... his wife went to check on him and could find no movement, no breath... she called an ambulance that rushed him off to the hospital who hooked him up to an EEG and ECG - no traces on either just alarm bells... an Indian doctor there recalled his parents talking about yogis who could go into a state of suspension so he hooked him up to defibrillator paddles to try and restart the heart... several times they tried and several times they failed... by now he was scheduled to be sent off to the morgue...
...at which point he woke up and said "what am I doing here - I was in my bedroom" ... he said he had been in a totally blissful state of rapture .. he had felt nothing that had happened to him... (altho as he later related to his teacher the main pain was being given a complete ear-bending by his wife afterwards!).
As Ajahn Brahm said this is not just based on someone not being able to observe someone breathing this is in a real western hospital expensively kitted out emergency room.
So I think on that basis one can get some idea of what non-diluted jhanas are all about... it also puts into context the watered down teachings that go around (in all the esoteric arts of course).
So advanced meditators round here - be sure to leave a sign next to you when really meditating (apparently this guy said that for the first time in his meditation he had "really let go" thats for sure!!!).
Mike
HTH
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on Apr 30 2007 7:13:19 PM |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2007 : 12:10:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike
Just in case anyone is mislead into believing that Jeffrey Brooks (aka) "jhanananda" is a representative of any Buddhist organization other than his own here is a snip from his home page at http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhanananda.html (my emboldening)
Sadly for all his achievements he appears to - how can I put this politely? - 'not entirely fit the general understanding of modest and self-unassuming' that is the case with high-level Buddhist practitioners (think HHDL eg). He is only too anxious to promote his achievements:
[
Mike
I actually know Jhanananda, quite well, and have met him in person. As a matter of fact, I did a week-long meditation retreat with him last September.
The Jhanananda that appears in writing is much different in person - he's actually quite friendly, humble and modest. And, no, he is not an 'orthodox' Buddhist, nor has he ever presented himself as one - even though he does heavily reference the Sutta Pitaka as a source.
However, he does believe in speaking, and writing, openly about meditative absorption and the fruits of the contemplative life. It's a bit like the open source model that AYP adheres to really.
Also, just because the Dalai Lama behaves in a certain way, which is culturally acquired - most Tibetans I've met behave similarly - I find it rather unreasonable to expect others to do the same - we're all different people and all products of different cultures.
For example, if one actually bothers to read the entire Sutta Pitaka - I have, mostly - one will notice that on many occasions that the Buddha comes across like an arrogant, cocky, blunt, commanding megalomaniac. He speaks openly, and frequently, of his attainments, and refers to himself with all sorts of superlatives.
Therefore, I'd assume that he probably wouldn't live up to other's standards of a high level, self-effacing Buddhist practitioner. And, he would probably be labled as a shameless self-promoter.
Anyway, that's all I'm going to say about Jhanananda here. Like him or dislike him, the man does know what he's talking about.
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Edited by - Nirodha on May 01 2007 11:33:29 PM |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2007 : 12:29:07 PM
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By the way, about Ajahn Brahm, he adheres to a commentarial model of Jhana as presented in the Vissudhimagga (The Path of Purification). This commentary was written by a monk that post-dated the Buddha by at least 1,000 years. And, it verves wildly from the model presented in the Sutta Pitaka.
The Vissudhimagga was not written as a 'meditation manual', as many incorrectly assume, but as a test of Buddhaghosha's - the author - skill as a translator and his 'orthodoxy'.
I'd suggest anyone interested in Ajahn Brahm's book to do a critical analysis of it against the Sutta Pitaka. I have, and I found it to be full of errors and wild speculations. Therefore, just because someone's a monk, it doesn't mean that they are automatically Enlightened and know what they are talking about. As they say: Let the buyer beware.
Peace,
Nirodha |
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2007 : 1:01:24 PM
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As stated above there is a never ending futile discussion in Theravada on how much jhana to how much insight makes the right recipe (and various historical and cultural stop-offs on the way).
I will "bite my tongue" on the casual disrespect to various teachers of high repute and standing within their communities one often sees in this forum...
As to amateur 'errors' well (a) his practice speaks for itself, (b) his great success as a teacher speaks for itself.
However for those that want more background he is a working class guy that got a scholarship to study Theoretical Physics at Cambridge (and in the 60s that wasnt so easy), studied under Ajahn Chah, and has been a monk for some 34 years .. hardly I would venture a gentleman prone to making amateur errors (even if like us all prone to enthusiasms and preferences).
For anyone interested in studying the jhanas his work is really important (not least of which as it is experiential and in great detail, not only from someone who walks the walk but who has taught many others to do so. He's also very witty ... I recall him saying in a talk that folks often come to him and say that they understand Buddhism involves letting go of attachments but what about their houses and superannuation funds... to which he replies "if you let go of those for which you have worked hard then you are letting go of your intelligence and that isnt Buddhism"  ).
For those who wish to judge for themselves wikipedia says:
quote:
Ajahn Brahm
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Venerable Ajahn Brahmavamso Mahathera (known to most as Ajahn Brahm) was born Peter Betts in London, United Kingdom on August 7, 1951. Currently Ajahn Brahm is the Abbot of Bodhinyana Monastery, in Serpentine, Western Australia, the Spiritual Director of the Buddhist Society of Western Australia, Spiritual Adviser to the Buddhist Society of Victoria, Spiritual Adviser to the Buddhist Society of South Australia, Spiritual Patron of the Buddhist Fellowship in Singapore, and Spiritual Patron of the Bodhikusuma Centre in Sydney.
Early Life
Venerable Ajahn Brahmavamso Mahathera (known to most as Ajahn Brahm) was born Peter Betts in London, United Kingdom on August 7, 1951. He came from a working-class background, and won a scholarship to study Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University in the late 1960s. After graduating from Cambridge he taught in high school for one year before travelling to Thailand to become a monk and train with the Venerable Ajahn Chah Bodhinyana Mahathera.
Study and Ordination
Ajahn Brahm was ordained in Bangkok at the age of twenty-three by the Abbot of Wat Saket. He subsequently spent nine years studying and training in the forest meditation tradition under Venerable Ajahn Chah.
Coming to Australia
The then Ven. Brahm was invited to Perth, Australia by the Buddhist Society of Western Australia to assist Ajahn Jagaro in teaching duties. Initially they both lived in an old house in the suburb of North Perth, but in late 1983 purchased 97 acres (393,000 m²) of rural and forested land in the hills of Serpentine south of Perth. The land was to become Bodhinyana Monastery (named after their teacher, Ajahn Chah Bodhinyana). Bodhinyana was to become the first dedicated Buddhist monastery in the Southern Hemisphere and is today the largest community of Buddhist monastery in Australia.
Initially there were no buildings on the land, and as there were only a few Buddhists in Perth at this time, and little funding, the monks themselves began building to save money. So it was that Ajahn Brahm learnt plumbing and brick-laying and built many of the current buildings there himself.
Becoming a leader
In 1994, Ajahn Jagaro took a sabbatical leave from Western Australia and disrobed a year later, abruptly leaving Ajahn Brahm in charge. Despite initial reservations, Ajahn Brahm took on the role with gusto and was soon being invited to provide his humorous and uplifting teachings in other parts of Australia and South-East Asia. He has been a speaker at the International Buddhist Summit in Phnom Penh in 2002, and at three Global Conferences on Buddhism. But such recognition has not stopped him from dedicating time and attention to the sick and dying, those in prison or ill with cancer, people wanting to learn to meditate, and of course his own Sangha of monks at Bodhinyana.
Ajahn Brahm has also been influential in establishing Dhammasara Nuns' Monastery at Gidgegannup in the hills north-east of Perth to be a wholly independent monastery, where the Sri Lankan trained, Australian nun Ajahn Sr. Vayama is currently abbot.
Achievements
Whilst still in his years as a junior monk, Ajahn Brahm was asked to undertake the compilation of an English-language guide to the Buddhist monastic code - the vinaya - which later became the basis for monastic discipline in many Theravadan monasteries in Western countries.
Currently Ajahn Brahm is the Abbot of Bodhinyana Monastery, in Serpentine, Western Australia, the Spiritual Director of the Buddhist Society of Western Australia, Spiritual Adviser to the Buddhist Society of Victoria, Spiritual Adviser to the Buddhist Society of South Australia, Spiritual Patron of the Buddhist Fellowship in Singapore, Spiritual Patron of the Bodhikusuma Centre in Sydney.
In October 2004, Ajahn Brahm was awarded the John Curtin Medal for his vision, leadership and service to the Australian community by Curtin University. He is currently working with monks and nuns of all Buddhist traditions to establish the Australian Sangha Association.
Ajahn Brahm is the author of Opening the Door of Your Heart: And Other Buddhist Tales of Happiness (later published as Who Ordered This Truckload of Dung?: Inspiring Stories for Welcoming Life's Difficulties) and Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook.
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on May 01 2007 1:09:03 PM |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2007 : 11:49:02 PM
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My seeming disregard for any 'teacher' I've written about here is far from casual. If, and when, I do criticize them, it's based on thorough critical analysis of their work, and not any affection I might have for them. I'm not interested in someone's reputation, resume, and/or standing within the orthodoxy. I deal in facts.
It may interest one to know that Ajahn Brahm's model of Jhana deviates from that of his own well known and highly respected teacher, Ajahn Chah: Ajahn Brahm seems to think that first Jhana starts when one's senses have been completely relinquished - this is identical to the assertions put forth in the Vissudhimagga. While the Sutta Pitaka, Ajahn Chah, and many other highly respected teachers of meditation, state that this is not so.
Peace,
Nirodha |
Edited by - Nirodha on May 02 2007 12:07:02 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2007 : 3:07:30 PM
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Hi everyone,
I don't think we need to start making disrespectful remarks about various Buddhist (or non-Buddhist) teachers. That's not going to get us very far. Both Ajahn Brahm and Jhanananda seem to be highly experienced and knowledgeable, and we could simply learn from their experience. They have been generous enough to share that experience with the world. If they have made some errors, then those errors will come to light. After all, what we are talking about is our own evolution, not something burried in some ancient manuscripts. The answers are all within us, waiting to be discovered, so we can compare people's descriptions of Jhana states with our own experiences within samadhi. That is really the only test of accuracy, whether it works as a system to help us understand our own inner experiences. If it doesn't, it's really of no use.
I am sure Ajahn Brahm is perfectly familiar with the Sutta Pitaka, and has probably studied it in Pali. He is not obliged to adopt the orthodox understanding of Jhana characteristics if he prefers to use the Vissudhimagga. He also is not obliged to repeat parrot fashion the teachings of his spiritual mentor Ajahn Chah.
With respect to Jhanananda (great name by the way... the bliss of inner absorbtion), he is not obliged to follow any particular Buddhist school, or take initiation from any Buddhist teacher, or even to call himself a Buddhist... the Buddha didn't do any of those things either . But if he practices meditation and teaches about the jhana states, then that is good enough for us. We don't need to make slights about his personality.
quote:
Nirodha wrote:
At least here I can openly talk about this stuff. If I try this on most so-called Buddhist forums I usually get censored and/or banned after a short time - very strange, especially considering the fact that the Buddha mentions Samadhi/Jhana literally thousands of times in his discourses. Oh, well. ;)
I have to confess I really had no idea this kind of suppression is going on in Buddhist forums, and I am quite shocked. Presumably the Buddha would have been banned from most Buddhist forums . Good job the internet didn't exist then. . I know that most Buddhist monastics take a training precept during ordination that forbids them from discussing experiences that occur during meditation. But lay Buddhists don't take that precept unless they choose to. And it is only a training precept, not a vow.
The advantage with this forum is (apart from the fact that we don't get banned for discussing these things  ), that there are forum members who have experienced all states of Jhanic absorbtion, and who know how to enter the various states at will. So we don't have to rely exclusively on the ancient texts. We can discuss jhana entry from the light of our own experience.
Christi
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2007 : 9:26:38 PM
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Hi Christi,
I agree with you, there's no need to get into personalty-bashing, and that's certainly not what I was doing. However, what just transpired here does serve the highlight the ongoing conflict between those that adhere to the Buddhist commentaries and those that adhere to the root texts (i.e. the Suttas). And, that's what I was emphasising, as well as the personality-worship that one sees frequently in religious circles.
I wish I could find the reference at the moment, because it makes some very powerful statements, but the Buddha predicted that this sort of conflict and personality-worship would arise after his death. And, advised those who were seeking his teachings to always stick to the Sutta Pitaka as a referential platform, and to even double-check that against their own experience.
Quite frankly, Buddhism(s) - I wrote it that way intentionally, as there is truly more than one - has decayed badly in the 2,500+ years since the Buddha's death - the Buddha predicted this as well. This is why if one now speaks of Samadhi/Jhana openly on Buddhist forums one gets censored; and, why people would rather listen to 'teachers' that are entertaining, witty and eloquent, and that engage in scriptural distortion, then study the Suttas for themselves.
It's really quite a sad situation, and why I have chosen to disassociate myself from the Buddhist orthodoxy. I now gather useful information from wherever, and from whomever, I can get it - regardless of it's, and their, standing within the Buddhist community. And, I always, always use a healthy dose of critical analysis, discernment, suttic reference and experience to valid this. This approach have saved me from a lot of headaches and wrong turns over the years, and I'd recommend it to anyone.
Peace,
Nirodha
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Edited by - Nirodha on May 03 2007 02:52:20 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2007 : 10:44:30 PM
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| Is "sutta" Pali for "sutra"? |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2007 : 10:54:55 PM
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exactly, like Nibbana is Pali, Nirvana is Sanskrit, or Kamma and Karma, Dhamma and Dharma. See the pattern?
Jill |
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