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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 23 2007 : 12:00:03 AM
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It was recently mentioned in another thread that it's often not the enlightened teacher who is mythologized, but enlightenment itself:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=5
This has profound implications for everyone on a spiritual path. When Awakening becomes the Holy Grail, it becomes utterly unattainable. It's the proverbial carrot and stick. One might spend their entire life chasing it, and it will always be just out of reach. Adyashanti repeatedly instructs his students to throw away all their ideas of what it means to be enlightened, because it is absolutely not what we think it is. It is completely ordinary; it is here with us now, in every moment. Nothing to attain. No great myth, no Holy Grail. My point? There is no point.  |
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RevolMaster
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2007 : 10:01:50 PM
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| while i agree one should throw away all concepts of what it is, if there was nothing to attain, there would be no point to meditation, mudras, devotion, and all that jazz, you could just sit here and be enlightened, because the Truth is always the Truth, is is our false concept of what we are that is blocking us from actually experiencing it. There is a big difference in understanding that we are more than the body in intellectual theory and actually having the oneness manifesting and pervading your entire being, literally merged with the source. So i would say the point is to advance the nervous system, clean off the bright mirror of the being and then go to Nothing(everything) |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2007 : 11:31:30 PM
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aum
hi meg!
wish these words were not to disagree with you but think it will help understand energy fields of 'enlightenment' from our ancient yoga.
throwing away thoughts to experience void or putting in thoughts of single focus (mantras) to experience the one is one side of effort. the mind converging to find oneness and the absolute void with the dissolved mind is the other half that is enabled through divine grace and the mind's maturity. to remain awake is inspired work and/or disciplined play.
those who claim being awake is completely ordinary are expressing a pathway of encouragement and they do not express that they too need to be continually on the journey as the journey does not end. beyond chopping wood for oneself is chopping wood for collective oneness when the mind of 'i' has dissolved into the real 'i'.
tamil enlightened siddhar masters say of the awakened state as, 'summa iru'- it means, 'be still' and/or 'simply be' and/or 'experience being' and to 'be still' requires spiritual maturity to enjoy the stillness in its essence for its pregnant wisdom and surrender of the externals. sri ramana maharishi asks us to simplify the the inner journey with the question 'who am i' and yet it is the mind's maturity that grips this joy that enjoys the 'i am' thought after thought and without thought too, the 'i am' resonance beyond the thought vibrations.
then again, when awake, there is the huge elephant like spirit with a void mind so absorbed into source and thought patterns in tune with oneness that aligns into oneness energies. so thoughts are guided inward.
this is why the awake still meditate. still need to.
being the state beyond the mind and then experiencing the mind for 'what is' is wonderful and described as awake. to be in this state all the time requires love/joy/discipline/focus/effort/intense need/sacrifice/will/sacred guidance and especially divine grace.this yoga is a 24/7 involvement with sleep state too transcended to be even whole as in one as of the state of turiya.
beyond the sleepless state of turiya, the consciousness above 'being awake' is said to be 18 states further. less is written of turiya and the states of turiya as the sacred knowledge is left for the experience of wisdom.
in the momentum of the inner journey is the effort efficiency!
there is all to be attained in the experience of being awake with the unfolding journey even as we enable the momentum!
aum
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2007 : 11:49:38 PM
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| it is and it isnt. formless form, form formlessness. balance of the inbetween, you do not desier, and you do not"not desier" you dont give up, and you done not give up. dont think its the holy grail, but dont not think its the holy grail. belive both and nither, for all is and isnt, oh! or mabey no eh? who knows! |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 02:13:07 AM
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Hi Meg,
quote:
It was recently mentioned in another thread that it's often not the enlightened teacher who is mythologized, but enlightenment itself:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=5
This has profound implications for everyone on a spiritual path. When Awakening becomes the Holy Grail, it becomes utterly unattainable. It's the proverbial carrot and stick. One might spend their entire life chasing it, and it will always be just out of reach. Adyashanti repeatedly instructs his students to throw away all their ideas of what it means to be enlightened, because it is absolutely not what we think it is. It is completely ordinary; it is here with us now, in every moment. Nothing to attain. No great myth, no Holy Grail. My point? There is no point.
I assume you are reffering to what I wrote in the other thread:
quote:
I don’t think that it is something nearly as rare as people imagine. I am beginning to suspect that if any mythologization is going on, then it could be the mythologization of the enlightened condition. If we believe that it is always something far off, extremely difficult to attain, the possession of great masters in Himalayan caves then we have separated ourselves from the condition eternally before we even have any clear idea about what it really is....
Enlightenment is not complicated, it is the simplest thing in the world. It is not far away. It is right here, available in every moment. It is closer than our every breath. It has always been here and always will be. Before we come into being in each moment, freedom is there. When we stop creating ourselves in each moment, freedom is there. As long as we think that we will gain anything by moving in any direction at all, we have missed it entirely. We never gain anything. To the separate self it is That (Tat Tvam Asi), to our True nature it is This. It is immanent and eternal. Nothing ever touches it and it is always pure
I think you are absolutely right in saying that one might spend their whole life chasing it and find that it is always out of reach. Many, many people do. I strongly suspect that we usually have no idea what it is we are actually chasing. We think that it is some great experience, but then whatever experience happens to us, however great it is, we are still not free. It was always just another experience. If we never get beyond this process of chasing after the experience, which is going to be the final one, the one that sets us free forever, then we will never realize who we really are. There is no final experience, because experiences are mind-born, and there is no end to the mind. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 02:52:28 AM
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nandhi, great post! Thank you!
I agree with RevolMaster who wrote "So i would say the point is to advance the nervous system, clean off the bright mirror of the being and then go to Nothing(everything)". This thread made me reflect on what my own ideas of enlightenement look like. I think I just imagine a state where there will be contentment with life, because "I" who am not content right now (and never will be content) will not be the one "experiencing" it. And that's sort of how blurry it is... The goals I have, the chasing I do is all about cleaning the mud! And that stresses me. It can not go fast enough, it seems, although I know my psyche and nervous system will mature in its own pace, I can do very little but doing my best to give good premisses for it to develop. |
Edited by - emc on Mar 25 2007 02:53:27 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 05:11:25 AM
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Hi Nandhi
quote:
aum
hi meg!
wish these words were not to disagree with you but think it will help understand energy fields of 'enlightenment' from our ancient yoga.
throwing away thoughts to experience void or putting in thoughts of single focus (mantras) to experience the one is one side of effort. the mind converging to find oneness and the absolute void with the dissolved mind is the other half that is enabled through divine grace and the mind's maturity. to remain awake is inspired work and/or disciplined play.
those who claim being awake is completely ordinary are expressing a pathway of encouragement and they do not express that they too need to be continually on the journey as the journey does not end. beyond chopping wood for oneself is chopping wood for collective oneness when the mind of 'i' has dissolved into the real 'i'.
tamil enlightened siddhar masters say of the awakened state as, 'summa iru'- it means, 'be still' and/or 'simply be' and/or 'experience being' and to 'be still' requires spiritual maturity to enjoy the stillness in its essence for its pregnant wisdom and surrender of the externals. sri ramana maharishi asks us to simplify the the inner journey with the question 'who am i' and yet it is the mind's maturity that grips this joy that enjoys the 'i am' thought after thought and without thought too, the 'i am' resonance beyond the thought vibrations.
then again, when awake, there is the huge elephant like spirit with a void mind so absorbed into source and thought patterns in tune with oneness that aligns into oneness energies. so thoughts are guided inward.
this is why the awake still meditate. still need to.
being the state beyond the mind and then experiencing the mind for 'what is' is wonderful and described as awake. to be in this state all the time requires love/joy/discipline/focus/effort/intense need/sacrifice/will/sacred guidance and especially divine grace.this yoga is a 24/7 involvement with sleep state too transcended to be even whole as in one as of the state of turiya.
beyond the sleepless state of turiya, the consciousness above 'being awake' is said to be 18 states further. less is written of turiya and the states of turiya as the sacred knowledge is left for the experience of wisdom.
in the momentum of the inner journey is the effort efficiency!
there is all to be attained in the experience of being awake with the unfolding journey even as we enable the momentum!
Hi Nandhi,
Thanks for writing and sharing your beautiful experiences. I always love your posts, even when I can’t understand a word of what you write. Just the sound vibration alone is beautiful.
With all due respect and not wanting to disagree with anything that you have written in any way, the turya state is not enlightenment. As far as I could tell, Meg was asking about enlightenment, not about states. As I am sure you are fully aware, when we are in the turya state, we are merged with the witness consciousness and so we remain fully conscious whether we are awake, or dreaming or in deep sleep. But it is not freedom is it? It is a state, and we can relate to it as we relate to any experience. We can become attached to it, or want to get rid of it, or think we are someone special because we are experiencing it. We can meditate every day to try and maintain it because of how good it makes us feel. We could experience this state and be about a million miles away from freedom. So does it have anything to do with enlightenment?
The same goes for the 18 states beyond the turya (or 5 states, or 118 states, or however we want to divide up the spectrum of spiritual vision as it unfolds in consciousness over time).
Whatever state our mind is in, it is another state of consciousness, which we can become attached to, or addicted to, or repulsed by, or identified with. And we have to keep meditating to keep the experiences coming, and to maintain our identity as a seeker, as someone getting somewhere, doing something, or as a spiritually wise being. If we stop our practices, we will fall back into the suffering of the separate self. But what kind of freedom is this? Where does enlightenment fit into the picture? If our freedom is always dependant on the realization of the next highest state beyond the turya, when will we ever be free?
Christi
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 12:36:50 PM
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I liked that post Christi. |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2007 : 4:23:04 PM
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aum
thank you meg, revolmaster, scott and christi for contributing thoughts!
hi christi!
an interesting subject
Whatever state our mind is in, it is another state of consciousness, which we can become attached to, or addicted to, or repulsed by, or identified with.- being addicted into states of turiya is good! yes!
is it not the purpose of meditation to be the 'freedom' beyond the shackles of your mind?
the state transcending the three states of the mind is the meditative realms, the realms of turiya. the description of turiya states (mentioned earlier) was only to express that the inner journey does not end.
being in state of turiya does mean the state of being awakened. in all or any meditative process, turiya is accompanied to enable the brief or prolonged awakened consciousness.
think you did agree that practice is required to hold the state that you call enlightenment. the path to 'to be free' is discipline that comes from wanting what makes us free!
being addicted to this 'freedom', we want it all the time! not too bad, isnt it, when the prolonged freedom of being awake is then a state of the 'mind' ???
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 12:46:44 AM
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Hi Scott,
quote:
I liked that post Christi.
Thanks |
Edited by - Christi on Mar 26 2007 07:01:15 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2007 : 07:28:26 AM
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Hi Nandhi,
Thanks for your clarifications.
I was wondering if you could clarify some points that you made.
quote:
being addicted into states of turiya is good! yes!
is it not the purpose of meditation to be the 'freedom' beyond the shackles of your mind?
the state transcending the three states of the mind is the meditative realms, the realms of turiya. the description of turiya states (mentioned earlier) was only to express that the inner journey does not end.
being in state of turiya does mean the state of being awakened. in all or any meditative process, turiya is accompanied to enable the brief or prolonged awakened consciousness.
You seem to be saying that it is good to get attached to meditative states, because these states are freedom beyond the mind. This is where the contradiction seems to lie for me. If we are attached or addicted to something, are we free? What happens if we loose it (that state)? Are we free then? This is why I question the degree to which these states are synonymous with freedom? What would happen if we were sick and couldn't meditate, where would our freedom be then?
quote:
think you did agree that practice is required to hold the state that you call enlightenment.
Just to clarify... no, I was saying that practices seem to be required to create and maintain spiritual states, but that freedom, if any such thing exists for a human being, cannot be a state that has to be maintained by doing something every day (making an effort), otherwise it is simply a dependant condition (something that arises as a result of something else arising), however good it feels.
quote:
this is why the awake still meditate. still need to.
being the state beyond the mind and then experiencing the mind for 'what is' is wonderful and described as awake. to be in this state all the time requires love/joy/discipline/focus/effort/intense need/sacrifice/will/sacred guidance and especially divine grace.this yoga is a 24/7 involvement with sleep state too transcended to be even whole as in one as of the state of turiya.
Do you use the word awake to mean enlightened? Or is there a difference for you between being awake and being enlightened?
And one more question, I hope you don't mind...
What would happen to you if you stopped meditating? Have you ever tried?
Christi
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 12:16:02 AM
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divine friends,
especially emc- big hug to you divine brother!
wonderful christi!
beautiful questions but waste of words to answer other than by experience.
each guru to oneself though by experience. hence all good and right and our own knowing the seeking knowing that found already as the daily joys of the spirit cradling the body and simply being.
effort and effortless. row row row our boat. our boat then becomes the ones boat.
the water like currents of bhakti as river to the sea.
boat the 'awake mind'.
sacred water, the breath and each thought the gentle ripples.
the awakened joy in our daily song, the momentum of unfoldings in the inner and outer world.
we are enlightened, dead some times to awaken again, absorbed, aware, enjoying the fire within, watching the human circus and knowing we are the human karmic package too. awake, we call it enlightening. alight and 'on the burn'.
grace to all the divine masters who are here reading, brothers and sisters of awareness!
in humility to seek each ones blessings!
condensed love as grace of wellbeing to you each!:)
aum
gratitude elder brother yogani for your space of love and wisdom. love from all of us in gratitude!
jai guruve thunai.
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Edited by - nandhi on Mar 31 2007 12:05:54 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 12:55:11 AM
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Sister, nandhi, sister!  Big hug to you too! And thanks for another beautiful post bubbling of joy and peace! |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 02:28:13 AM
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aum
emc, waking up to knowing your being as the five coming together as sakti! indeed, sister, in gratitude to all the love and warm words!
aum
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 05:51:58 AM
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Jai Divine brother Nandhi!
Pranams at your blessed lotus feet, and sprinkling lotus flowers gently over your head.
Another beautiful post! Thank you for writing such an eloquent reply.
We don't have to agree on the nature of freedom in the human field of spiritual experience. As you say (I think), it is largely a matter of experience.
But I just wanted to ask, and I hope you will forgive my incessant curiosity, in regard to Meg's original question, and your reply to it, are you saying that the enlightened condition is not here with us now, in every moment, eternally accessable? Is it your experience that it is in fact something that only comes at the end of a long sadhana?
Blessings on all our Divine brothers and sisters, here in the forum and all over the world.
Jai Sri Yogani Ki Jai !! (Swadevi amritam hridayam antaram sthatam)
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Mar 30 2007 09:36:02 AM |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 10:14:30 AM
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aum
pranams, deep respects and love to you, christi!
[christi- are you saying that the enlightened condition is not here with us now, in every moment, eternally accessable? Is it your experience that it is in fact something that only comes at the end of a long sadhana?]
the 'awake' and 'enlightened' unfoldings is the sadhana itself though the awake/enlightened conditions get effortless to be in as we tread along.
purified nervous systems- the nadis cleansed of karmic dirt of the past, present and future; divine grace and inner guidance; the mind's ability to be above muck of the externals, lotus like in awareness- each in the process to attain the 'flow' with bhakthi and wisdom, the daily inspiring & indulgent joys!
this 'flow' is the sadhana, the journey isnt it?
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 2:01:41 PM
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Namaste nandhi!
quote:
Originally posted by nandhi:
"this 'flow' is the sadhana, the journey isnt it?"
Huh What exactly did you mean to say here
The "process to attain the 'flow' with bhakthi and wisdom", which you referred to, IS the journey of Sadhana, is it not
Hari OM!
Doc
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Edited by - Doc on Mar 27 2007 8:50:43 PM |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 8:16:05 PM
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"Before enlightenment I chopped wood and carried water."
"After enlightenment I chopped wood and carried water."
-Zen koan |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 11:40:39 PM
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aum
first greetings to divine meg! what you said makes sense, divine one.
yes, it is the other side of the same coin in words expressed and experienced to enjoy in the knowing. thank you for your posting, meg
beautiful wisdom of those experiences,nagoyasea! gratitude!
when chopping wood, the tired is the seeker, inspiration the sought and the purpose, the knowing of supreme joy in the act. the action aligned. the eternal energies becoming. the tireless master of infinite patience within enjoying the eternal energies and each aligned thought blessed towards highest purpose. inspired. this is the word in energies- the flow, nandhi conveys.
musashi, deity of martial arts would mention of the flow as integrating the five of consciousness, like as five circles coming together. he called it the beautiful word 'heiho'. it is grace received through the momentum of being the higher energy.
in kriyas of our ancient yoga is being the five as element. the body consciousness dissolved in earth, water, fire, air and our beloved infinite ether. the flow is in being spirit in awareness and the offering of body to the sacred fire within. here is tumo and grace of being alight and the journeys of being one so oneness in all its energy prevails.
chopping wood, the 'i' would ask, why extend breath unless the need is so deep that it transcends ego package of words.
doc, divine brother, hari aum! is it not?
the lover and the beloved in the momentum of sacred union in and out each breath and this eternal joy experience kept in awareness each breath like being the current of the river and also the welcoming ocean energies embracing the dissolving river.the flow of each breath and the grace that connects the physical and the spiritual so the knowing. so to being awake. wake in supreme joys.
so the sadhana, the journey, that as spirit enjoys the every realm of human perception. gratitude showers. abundance, knowing and the whirl that enables thought the spirit in our oneness- hugs to each
pure experience of the moment.
blessed!
aum |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 01:30:47 AM
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Om Gum Gurubhuyo Namah
quote:
Originally posted by nandhi:
"doc, divine brother, hari aum! is it not?"
"so the sadhana, the journey, that as spirit enjoys the every realm of human perception...pure experience of the moment."
blessed!
aum
Namaste, brother nandhi!
It Is That It Is!
http://www.rkmchennai.org/images/ab.../emblem1.jpg
Hari OM!
Doc
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Edited by - Doc on Mar 28 2007 5:04:13 PM |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 1:59:12 PM
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aum
namaste and sacred joys of oneness, doc!
yes, it is, divine brother!! the swan of the mind as precious gift and the choice- being! gratitude!
hari aum! |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 2:49:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
My point? There is no point.
Hi Meg & All,
(Same thing ...) - First, thanks for this thread .... awesome!
Second, per your statement above ...
... well-known western kirtan-wallah, Krishna Das, often performs with his daughter, Janaki. When they do the "full band and chorus <--- dozens of people -- Janaki and a couple of the other women, sit / sing together as kind of "lead back-up vocalists" (i.e. in kirtan's call-and-response format, they very clearly sing the response lines, so that any kirtan-newbies can be clear on the "when I'm supposed to sing" part ...  ).
And the point of that whole mini-story?
Janaki and her friends go by the creative and oh-so-pertinent moniker: "The Pointless Sisters".
I mean, what if there actually was a point to life?
And, to really "get" it, you somehow (hint: A-Y-P ) managed to put yourself inside that point - and realized, from that perspective-place, that from the inside, the point seems infinite and eternal .... then what would the point be?
I'm not entirely sure ... but I'm guessing it might seem a whole lot like ... THIS!
Jayayam!
Oh, and by the way - I'll probably give this link a permanent home in the Yoga and Neuroscience section - but since the info applies very directly to this discussion, I'll include it here, as well:
http://ishtasystem.blogspot.com/200...d-brain.html
It's a blog / article, written by an Australian yoga teacher - and she just outlines the "whole shebang"* very nicely, and in easy-to-read, plain language, which may be more comfortable for those who aren't comfortable with a lot of Sanskrit, and/or a lot of neuroscientific tech jargon:
*The "whole shebang" as I'm defining it, here:
How yoga practices are simply a tool-set which enhance and expand the perceptual range of our body-mind system, and which thus allow us to experience life as it actually is, as opposed to living in the dark, molasses-like dream state, to which our limited, egoic "physical plane only" perception chains us (with "dream chains" which practices will dissolve quite handily -- though I don't expect anyone to believe me; if you have any doubts, please just practice daily, and find out for yourself! )
And per this entire Advaita-Dvaita discussion, in multiple threads, I'd like to say:
(Allowing for some possible but statistically very unlikely exceptions) - any group of people discussing existential duality and non-duality, and how these characteristics (or lack thereof) connect with the realms of awareness known as awakening and/or enlightenment -- will likely have a challenging time, in communicating about this oh-so-essential topic*, per the following:
(*Understanding it with the rational mind isn't essential; however, ultimately living it, is ... the good news is: we all will! )
*Both perspective and semantics are all over the map - so, with respect to any two people having this discussion, you can (and likely will) have a wide range of variety concerning their actual experience of related aspects of consciousness (i.e. one person may have had deep, and repeated awakening experiences, while the other may never have, and so, the latter person may still be communicating entirely from a conceptual perspective, as far as the subject matter is concerned.)
Then, add in the fact that there is a ton of latitude, regarding definitions that people assign, either formally or loosely, to the discussion's key terms - to give everyone an idea of how pervasive a situation this is, I would point out that one of the better-known "spirituality and consciousness" magazines on the market is titled, "What is Enlightenment?"
For instance, one of the biggest "sticking points", which confused me for years, and which became clear in my own mind only recently, thanks to Adyashanti overtly clarifying his own previous statements, along with a bit of concurrent, synergistic help from my good friends Yogani (his Samyama book, specifically) and Patanjali (section 1 of the Yoga Sutras, specifically) ...
... is that: regarding enlightenment, Advaitins (Non-Dualists) say (effectively), "there's nowhere to go, and nothing to do", while Dvaitins (Dualists), say, "Devotion and practice are essential".
Who is right?
Easy answer, of course!
The both-one who made both-that statement(s).
Confused? Frustrated? Fantasizing about doing creative yet highly uncomfortable things to me with my own (virtual) harmonium??
It's like this, y'see:
(Picture W.C. Fields, seated in Siddhasana, on a tiger-skin rug, with a large, ultra-holy snake draped about his neck and shoulders, a blissful smile, three infinitely-piercing, eternally pervasive eyes, blue skin, and a happy-stoned smile* ...)
{*Exactly - not being a sadist, I left out the "naked" part on purpose. You're welcome. }
In saying that there is "nowhere to go, nothing to do", the Advaitin is speaking of what is required to be in the condition of enlightenment.
In saying that devotion and practice is necessary, the Dvaitin is speaking of what is required to make the "soil" of the body-mind system as fertile as possible, in order to "attain" enlightenment.
If "New York City" was the topic, and I said, "To enjoy it, just look all around you" ...
The person I was speaking with might respond, "You're an idiot! You need an airplane ... or at least a car! Or be prepared to take a very long bike ride!"
We could basically have zero chance at communicating, if we didn't realize that I was speaking from the perspective of being in New York City, while the other person was speaking of getting to New York City.
When you combine that with the fact that most of the people who speak (Advaitically) of being "in" New York City (<--- metaphor for Enlightenment, in case anyone missed that) have never been there, others have seen a few movies (and/or have heard/read about the movies others have seen), some have seen a postcard or two, some have visited for anywhere between a few seconds and a few days, and a very small handful live there, and therefore know by experience that we all live there .... and are the city itself, every aspect of it, and the space in which it exists ....
Communication about New York City can be .... a bit dicey.
Definition of what is "real" is another biggie.
The Advaitin says, "Only the Self is real; all else is illusion ...!"
The Dvaitin says, "I'll check back with you on that, after you after you get run over by the illusory bus that's bearing down on you at high speed ...!"
In Advaitic terms, "real" is defined as: that which is not impermanent. By that definition, it is only the Self which qualifies (in the awareness or belief of the given Advaitin, depending upon their level of enlightenment).
As with most aspects of higher-level (more subtle / more refined), or "spiritual" reality, most people discussing related topics have either no direct experience, or very partial experience -- adding another layer of variety / complexity to the challenge of communicating well and easily.
That's why yogic practices and other esoteric / mystical (direct, internal, energetic) tools and information can be so crucial to our awakening.
If someone tells you that combining two things with another two things will give you four things ... you can test this theory for yourself, and prove to your own satisfaction that this is correct; you don't have to take anyone's word for it!
If you're (say) only eighteen months old (or whatever a good age would be analogy-wise ... early childhood education was never my specialty ... ) - you might have to wait until your capacity sufficiently expands, in order to conduct the experiment (verifying that 2+2=4) outlined above -- but doing so personally either is possible for you, or can be, given a bit of time / practice.
Yoga, and specifically (in my experience, and in the view of many advanced teachers of yoga, including Yogani) Kriya, or "pranayama and related practices"-centric yoga, is (as Yogananda said), "the airplane route to God" (in comparison with other methods which purport to accelerate Realization).
And, if this is a good analogy --- if yoga is our transport vehicle from Ego-Dream Land, all the way Home ... we presumably want the fastest, safest, most comfortable method of travel - yes?
(Remembering, of course - per Advaita - and many other, quite possibly the majority -- of esoteric (internal) systems around the world, and throughout history --- that the best analogy is "Awakening", because all travel/progress is only experienced at the level of the dream - and upon Awakening, we realize that there was really "nowhere to go" in actuality ... we've been dreaming, and while all that seeming volatility and duration was happening, we were snuggled safe and comfortable in our beds the entire time ... there being nowhere else to be, in Reality. )
As A Course in Miracles so eloquently begins:
Nothing Real can be threatened.
Nothing Unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.
Using this analogy, I would say that AYP qualifies as a (fictional, airplane-wise ... ultra-real, yoga-wise! ) a luxurious lear-jet, capable of speeds exceeding today's fastest military fighter planes.
Many systems (essentially all mystical and esoteric systems worth their "salt") point to the things we need to do, to purify our body-mind systems (physical and subtle), to allow awareness of ever-emanating Enlightenment to flow through us (as opposed to being blocked by the dream-impurities of the ego-mind)...
... but only AYP, in my experience, has refined related techniques, clarified them, and set up a system for intelligent self-management (i.e. self-pacing) - in order to create the best overall balance between rapid acceleration, and safe / comfortable progress.
And, in closing, I'll gladly tell everyone reading this, very candidly - at least 98% of my conscious spiritual progress (quote-unquote, i.e. "spiritual progress" = "removal of the apparent veils, covering awareness of Life As It Is" ) has been made in the last seven years, or so ... with probably 90% of that being made in the last two years {"AYP Time"} ... and 90% of that being made in the last year, alone ...).
In conjunction with that apparent progress, my experience and definition of terms / aspects of life, such as Love, Oneness, Enlightenment, Peace, Desire, Contentment, Astral-Etheric, Etc. - to literally name just a few --- have been re-defined entirely, or almost entirely.
It truly is like I was a pre-pubescent kid, trying to understand sex ... and then hit puberty / adolescence. Technically, I had some of the general parameters somewhat right ... but I wasn't too clear at all on most of the actuality ... and was most unclear of all, on how utterly awesome the experience of that actuality is (in comparison with my uninformed, and therefore unformed ... mental pre-projections concerning what it would be like).
And, like puberty ... some of the ride is "way bumpy", but the growth, expansion and .... new capabilities and awareness .... are "worth it", an "uncountable number of multiples", over.
And, some of the things I had the hardest time believing with my rational mind (psychic stuff, astral-etheric plane experiences, 360-degree subtle vision, etc.) - are things that I now experience daily, or nearly so ... and have found to be infinitely more real than I ever conceived they could be.
If anything, it's physical-plane experience that I'm beginning to experience as being less real, and more dream-like (not in any kind of dissociated way, I assure you --- I mean that statement purely in the sense of "by comparison with more subtle planes of reality".)
And (final comment / point --- really --- though this is the BIG one) ... as with anything else in life .... it is the essence / content which matters, not the form.
Example: Having sex can be base, crude and physical -- or enlightened, loving, intimate and beautiful --- nearly identical form/activity, can have essentially opposite content/essence.
Regarding all the (relative to where I *was*, which may well have been "way unspiritual" in comparison with almost anyone reading this) relative progress I have made in recent times .... it is the expansion of love, gratitude, contentment, peace, ease and connectedness - Oneness ... which fills my heart / being with pure joy --- and not any of the scenery - truly. The scenery can be kinda cool, interesting and even enjoyable ... but it is essentially valueless in comparison with the beautiful essence - the experience of life as it actually is - enabled by the practice of yoga (in all its facets; AYP, loving, serving, ruthless self-honesty, ongoing practice of "from attachment and aversion be free" and "love your neighbor as yourself", etc. etc. )
How does all this relate to de-mything enlightenment?
Simple: it's the only way I know of, to actually do so!
And, for what it's worth ... every (apparent) step I've taken in the "direction" of enlightenment, has also been an (apparent) step taken in the direct of Non-Duality.
Life can seem very, very dual ... but, in the deep silence which is part of every moment (only our awareness / perception of the silence changes; the silence itself never does), and of which we have always been aware ... as the awareness itself .... is only One.
Fifty million years from now, I would guess you may not be giving a lot of consideration to this dialog - yet the awareness with which you are considering this dialog, in this very moment ... is as unchanged fifty million years from now, as it is now, and ever.
And, by the way - I'm not talking about any special or spiritual awareness; I'm referring to plain ol' "awareness awareness" - the awareness that's with you, as you ... all day, every day (whether you're aware of it in any given moment, or not! )
As in: "It is not the ear which hears, but that by which the ear hears, that is Brahman, the Eternal."
Tat Tvam Asi -- You are THAT ... and THAT, beautiful friends, in nothing more nor less than your own awareness -- the very same, everyday awareness, with which you are reading and considering these words.
The ultimate beauty of yoga (which, for anyone who may have forgotten, means "Union" or "Oneness") is that we all will experience Reality, as stated above - sooner or later.
Yoga practices just give us the opportunity to have it be "sooner".
Jai Hridayam,
Kirtanman
PS - And to hopefully help avoid confusion: the qualitative experience of everyday awareness on the physical plane, and (for instance) enlightenement, and/or nirvikalpa samadhi - are of course very different. The essence of the awareness-being with which both-all are experienced, however, is literally the same (light is experienced as light, whether reflected, or directly emanated). Imagine a zillion watt light bulb, covered by several, progressively more thick and opaque veils. The light (awareness) remains unchanged ... though as the veils are removed ... the light seems to get infinitely brighter (as if it was increasing, exponentially in wattage ... which is a key facet of yoga practices: increasing the "wattage capacity" of our lamps!) -- and AYP, and any other components of our sadhana ... are simply the tools of our "veil removal project".
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Mar 28 2007 2:56:55 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 3:08:19 PM
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Talk about airplane rides!!
No-one can lay it out like you can good buddy!
"Hey waitress, I want some of what he's got!"
Thanks for the ride Kirtanman |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 10:36:59 PM
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aum
kirtanman, beautiful expressions of our ancient journeys of the mighty moment we ALL share !
aum
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 12:04:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Balance
Talk about airplane rides!!
No-one can lay it out like you can good buddy!
"Hey waitress, I want some of what he's got!"
Thanks for the ride Kirtanman
Thanks, Balance - the kind words are truly and deeply appreciated!
And same to you, Nandhi ... Aum Sweet Aum!
Jai Hridayam,
Kirtanman
PS - I love the etymology (meaning / breakdown) of the Sanskrit word Hridayam ... Heart (from whence comes the English word "Heart", as well). Hrid = Center. Ayam = This. Hridayam = Heart = The Center of This.
I wonder if maybe those enlightened rishis might be trying to tell us something?
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 01:23:58 AM
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aum
the ancient oneness of joy in three dimensions.
greetings divine beloveds as dolphins we jump up to ego breath to share essence beyond rooftop of breath. so words
sacred trinity of thought that as in our oneness is blessed. brightly shining fulfilling time of each.
knowing love dissolved in the three so to be light source. third eye awakened we know human purpose. the knowing that we are the karmic remnants of christ, buddha, paramahamsa yogananda and all the tapas yogis of the past whose momentum of energy form represent in the human form- the realization of our yoga. truly one. the nice and hollow and humble vessel, nameless grand-spirit. hence our daily worship and as sacred ash of burnt past smeared over externals.
knowing purpose is knowing dharma realms, the womb of infinite thought that takes birth as energy field of magnified intellect brought together in the surrendered breath of single thought dancing in the lamp- samadhi wisdom of oneness.
the huge elephant awake in the hut of the body. the hut for us yogis is the cradle of joy, the love sheath body transforms with each of the nadi points enjoying the yogic warmth. radiance of being. each thought from dharma's womb.
the inner guru our divine brother yogani so profoundly wishes each be.
awakened during this awake time as the awake. guided in sacred grace!
aum
anbe sivam, oneness awake as love.
jai guruve thunai!
aum
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de-mything enlightenment
