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shivakm
USA
41 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 13 2007 : 09:42:39 AM
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I am practicing the Deep meditation outlined here in AYP for the last 2-3 months. One of my friend visited me last weekend. He is practicing yoga/meditation for several years. Some one that I respect very much for his knowledge on these subjects. When we are talking about meditation, he mentioned that the Mantras should only be given by a Guru directly (verbally, pronounced right) to a disciple. He said that the mantras will not have the full effect unless it was given directly by guru. I questioned as to why it is so and he mentioned that the most important thing with the mantras are how they are pronounced. A Guru can teach some one how to pronounce a mantra, and if the disciple makes a mistake the Guru can correct the mistake. I wondered as to how difficult it will be for some one to learn to pronounce "I AM" (I am not using this mantra, I am using the bija mantra Shrim in my meditation) and raised this question. But he kept insisting that even though the mantras may be one word, we could still pronounce it wrong. And only a Guru can teach this properly. I just dismissed his comments thinking that it was just his belief. But after couple of days I realized that this discussion produced a nagging doubt in the back of my mind. I was born and brought up in India and obviously we attach a great status and respect to the Gurus. The Gurus are given a status which is above that of GOD. So, I began to wonder whether I am pronouncing the mantra that I use properly? Should I get it only from a proper teacher and then use it? I am asking this question for all the mantras including "I AM". Could we pronounce it wrong? I have also heard from several other teachers in India that Vedic mantras should only be taught by a Guru and pronouncing them wrong may not produce desired effects and some times could produce negative effects also. I am really impressed by the lessons on AYP and that motivated me to start my meditation. But I would like to get the opinion of others on this forum about the view that the mantra should only be taught by a Guru personally.
Shiva.
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shivakm
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2007 : 10:08:03 AM
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Just wanted to clarify a point. I did not raise this question to mean any disrespect or to question the methods of AYP. I have profound respect towards AYP and consider Yogani also to be my Guru. One who imparts knowledge and cares about the welfare of the student is a guru to me. So, the essential part of my question is whether the mantra should be directly heard from the guru. Whether the guru should impart the mantra in person to the student and make sure that he uses it right.
Shiva. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2007 : 10:39:04 AM
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Shivakm,
the world changes -- and traditions change. Rules for one time and place don't quite work for another, simply because the circumstances are different. Knowledge that was once believed perfect begins to show its limitations --- what was once believed to be the only way turns out to be just one way that did happen to work.
There is a great wisdom in the traditions of India, but there are also a lot of mistakes floating around -- the incontrovertible proof of that is that contradictory beliefs flourish in the tradition.
Precise pronunciation is not essential from the AYP perspective -- in fact, when you get strict enough in terms of sound, no two different people can pronounce a word precisely identically. In fact, you can't even produce exactly the same sound for a word twice. At a fine enough level, words are coming out like flowers, all different when you look closely enough, but some merely identified as the same as others.
There is more. As meditation progresses, the sound generalizes. It may distort and just turn into a vague nervous-system vibration. In this type of meditation, it is critical that you allow it to.
>> The Gurus are given a status which is above that of GOD.
That is part of the problem. Now, answer me this -- where did that mantra come from, ultimately?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 13 2007 11:02:50 AM |
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Swami Vajra
42 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2007 : 11:19:18 AM
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In my experience of both giving and recieving mantras, it makes no difference whatsoever. What does make the difference is practice. Remember, many of the myths about the Guru-disciple relationship are there for a reason whose time is passing. These myths have served well in preserving knowledge, but the time of all the secrets and tight controls is passing.
check out www.strippingthegurus.com and read some disturbing truths about some of the big name Gurus. No one is perfect, we must keep our balance at all levels of knowledge.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2007 : 3:48:08 PM
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I find this interesting since I have experienced a remarkable difference depending on my pronounciation and tempo. The way I said it from the very beginning has a certain quality to it during meditation. I get a distinct pressure on my breast bone and my focus intensifies. When I change pronounciation and/or tempo, the pressure decreases, and I get more distracted somehow. It feels as if the "road opens" much more.
Now, this is of course not related to any "right" or "perfect" way of saying the mantra since I had not heard it before Yoganis radio show, but I still find it interesting. How can this be? Is it only me who quickly formed a habit and was conditioned to the first mantra experience? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2007 : 4:38:06 PM
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EMC said:
I find this interesting since I have experienced a remarkable difference depending on my pronounciation and tempo.
EMC, the truth is, depending on exactly what is going on with you, a deliberate change in 'how you say it' (for example, faster, slower) can produce a subjective change in the nature of the meditation.
But in the AYP practice, you don't deliberately change how you say/think it. You 'say' it as you say it. If you just say it as you say it, some changes will happen spontaneously and you let them. That's it.
You are advised not to take control of the process -- such as concerning yourself about speed, and other, more subtle aspects the mantra.
I'm the poster-boy for making mistakes like that, by the way. I did them for years. The last thing you want to do is end up like me, right? 
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2007 : 5:31:10 PM
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Hi EMC:
Of course, all energy experiences and sensations that occur in deep meditation are purification -- part of the "scenery." And we know to easily favor the mantra at whatever level of clarity or fuzziness is comfortable whenever we find ourselves off into whatever may be happening in thoughts, feelings or sensations.
Yes, different inner pronunciations and intonations of mantra can create different energy experiences, but to attempt to supervise or optimize this by tweaking the mantra during meditation is going to be counterproductive. It will also be counterproductive to be adjusting the mantra on a regular basis from session to session, because inner silence is cultivated most effectively as our nervious system develops a deepening familiarity with the mantra as a vehicle of awareness. This takes time -- many months. Keep in mind that because energy experiences and sensations are purification (energy passing through obstructions, causing "friction"), the related experiences will be shifting all the time as the purification advances. So changing the mantra to capture a particular sense of progress in the form of an experience is literally "chasing the ghost" of our karma, which is being dissolved and transformed all the while.
A good way to look at mantra is as an approximate device that can be used as a vehicle for riding or sweeping automatically through the nervous system with increasingly subtle levels of silent awareness. There is no such thing as an "exact mantra" (a point well-taken by David). A mantra's pronunciation may be a little this way or that way. Using the syllables of "I AM" puts us in a ball park of inner sweeping that is known to be more or less effective and safe in the human nervous system. It will never be an exact thing -- only a ball park thing in terms of the quality and effect of the syllables. The same is true of the mantra enhancements, which broaden the sweep of awareness within us, while broadening the breadth of purification. Check lesson 188 for the over all strategy on mantra design in AYP: http://www.aypsite.org/188.html
Because we are using an inexact tool (mantra) doesn't mean that we are not accomplishing profound results. How many straws does it take to make a broom that will sweep our doorstep? The answer is "enough," with a few more or less straws still being "enough." Mantra and mantra pronunciation are like that. The main difference will be when we add an enhancement, which is like doubling or tripling the straws in our broom. That kind of expansion is something different that can be successfully undertaken once we have become well-skilled at using our old broom.
So, it is good to not belabor our current mantra too much, and just carry on with the simple procedure in twice-daily practice. If you are looking for more out of the mantra, then look to an enhancement, after deep meditation with the present mantra has been smooth and stable for at least several months, preferably longer. Of course, enhancements should be taken in order, and not rushed into. It takes time for the nervous system to adapt to fully utilize a mantra or an enhancement, and that is the same reason why we do not keep fiddling with the thing, which I know you aren't -- well, not too much anyway. We have all done our fair share of fiddling, and we are wiser for it.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2007 : 04:21:54 AM
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quote:
David wrote: I'm the poster-boy for making mistakes like that, by the way. I did them for years. The last thing you want to do is end up like me, right?
And good heavens, no! I don't want to end up like that either...  |
Edited by - emc on Feb 14 2007 04:22:27 AM |
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shivakm
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2007 : 04:22:53 AM
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I want to thank everyone for expressing their opinion on my question/doubts. It certainly provided some answers. But I also realized that I have to remove the doubts in my mind myself. One can hear/read a lot of wonderful things in a forum/book but still believe what he believes and still can have a doubt on his mind.
When I was reading the link provided by David on this page (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#13539), I read Yogani's comments,
Yogani:
"This line of relationship within ourselves is important for everyone, as it is an essential constituent of bhakti. As we all know, bhakti is the primary engine of yoga. It is the part of us that believes, and belief is essential for us to take that next step on our path, however small or large it may be. "
Even though the comment was given on some other subject, it struck a cord within me. Bhakti. Yes, I do need to have certain belief in what I am doing. It is essential. That did clear my doubting mind to certain extent. I will be more confident in my practice now.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi EMC:
Of course, all energy experiences and sensations that occur in deep meditation are purification -- part of the "scenery." And we know to easily favor the mantra at whatever level of clarity or fuzziness is comfortable whenever we find ourselves off into whatever may be happening in thoughts, feelings or sensations.
This was really helpful.
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Shivakm,
>> The Gurus are given a status which is above that of GOD.
That is part of the problem. Now, answer me this -- where did that mantra come from, ultimately?
David: I am not so sure if it is a problem. I believe that these (guru-disciple tradition) things were made for our own goodwill. In my opinion the respect shown towards one's Guru is part of the devotion/bhakti process. It just works like devotion/bhakti towards anything else for that matter. If we are to question, we can as well question any and all beliefs in world and we can contradict them also. So in my opinion it all boils down to what our beliefs are. But hey, this is all just my belief. You can very well have contradictory beliefs of your own and I respect that.
quote:
Originally posted by Swami Vajra
In my experience of both giving and recieving mantras, it makes no difference whatsoever. What does make the difference is practice. Remember, many of the myths about the Guru-disciple relationship are there for a reason whose time is passing. These myths have served well in preserving knowledge, but the time of all the secrets and tight controls is passing.
check out www.strippingthegurus.com and read some disturbing truths about some of the big name Gurus. No one is perfect, we must keep our balance at all levels of knowledge.
Swami Vajra: The first part of your comment about your experience giving and receiving mantras and how the practice makes the difference was very useful. However about strippingthegurus, I don't take it as lightly as Yogani did. I don't venture into the personal life to gurus. I only want to look at their teaching. For that matter I do not care how where or what Yogani is and only care deeply about the lessons that he has given us with such earnestness and dedication. I personally think that it is repulsive to get into the personal life of gurus or any one else for that matter and give so much importance and discuss about it. When I questioned about the guru/disciple discipline and the passing of "mantra" the question was just about that and not how the gurus who passed on the mantras lived their personal life. Their personal life is none of my business. I briefly looked at how this book tried to smear some of the well known teachers like Vivekananda and Ramakrihsna Paramahansa and I should only state that it is sad that some one would venture into this kind of attempt at putting the personal life of teachers under microscope. I also do not know how true the statements made on their website are. I feel that it is also unfortunate that you quoted such a site on AYP where we discuss and respect all traditions. Of course you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions, but why smear others. By reading briefly on the book that you quoted, on the chapter about J.Krishanmurthy, I can say that it is a gross misrepresentation of Krishamurthi's teachings (I should not even say teachings because he never claimed that he was teaching anything). Any one who has read the notes/books of J.Krishnamurthy (commentaries on living series or other books) and has listened to his talks will know that he never claimed any teacher or guru status. In fact he admonished such things repeatedly and asked us to just inquire into our own nature and live in a state of "beingness". He never advocated any one path to enlightenment. He was always adamant that no other person or guru can take us to enlightenment and we have to find it ourselves.
Shiva. |
Edited by - shivakm on Feb 20 2007 12:41:51 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2007 : 1:37:11 PM
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Hi All:
Kindly shift the guru conversation over to here in the "Gurus..." forum:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2054
The related posts (and parts of posts) have been split off or copied and moved there. Let's continue on mantra and deep meditation here.
Good idea, Trip! Oops, that's been moved over there too.
The guru is in you.
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2007 : 09:21:04 AM
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Namaste to All!
My perspective on this topic is apparently a bit different than that held by many of you here, so I decided to jump in and share it with you. 
I use a mantra that was given to me by my Guru, Swami Narayanananda, when I formally became his disciple many years ago. As a part of the Initiation, Swamiji practiced one complete round of the mantra on a new japa mala, and then placed it around my neck, to be used similarly by me thereafter. 
I have always considered this action on his part to have been sort of a "starter kit", so to speak, since his level of spiritual self-cultivation at Nirvikalpa Samadhi reflected the fullness of inner silence and purification to which I aspired. I have always treasured this loving gift of saturating a 'virgin' japa mala with that level and intensity of energy and spiritual power to aid me in following the path of that energy and power, and the process he used to attain it, which he also generously bestowed upon me and others.
It is my humble view, therefore, that only an authentic, fully enlightened Guru, like my Swamiji, would be capable of doing this for a know-nothing beginner like I was. Of course, it isn't imperative to get started in this way. One could easily select his/her own mantra, practice it in whatever way the "Guru within" intuitively guides them to, and no doubt achieve great results over time, with patience and consistency.
I for one, however, am very grateful to have had the blessed opportunity to begin my Sadhana in the way that I did, seated at the feet of a great Guru!
OM! Namah Narayana!
Hari OM!
Doc |
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shivakm
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2007 : 12:13:33 AM
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Doc,
Glad to hear about your experience. Thanks for sharing.
Shiva. |
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neerja1
India
22 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2007 : 02:26:04 AM
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Hi Shiva,
Though your doubts(?) are more or less settled as it seems from the thread, I just wanted to share a very short story that my Grand Ma used to tell us...A story about a poor, illiterate farmer who wanted to reach HIM, did not know the way, never met a learned person (Guru?) who could give him Deeksha, for whatever reason, and finally resigned to chant/jap the most important thing he thought he had...His Ox..Because his Ox had beautiful horns, this simple farmer started chanting - "Horns of Ox"..."Horns of Ox"...Amusing? Well... it may seem to many of us..It certainly did to us when we were young...However, Grand Ma would end up the story by saying.."it is not the mantra only, or the WORD that we chant, but the devotion , the bhakti that counts..for, the intense bhakti of the farmer made him realise himself by chanting just "Horns of Ox"..."Horns of Ox"..
On a personal level, the intonations of 'Iam' do change on its own as we get deeper and deeper during the meditation sessions..
I hope this helps u anywhichway..
Thanks
Neerja1 |
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yogibill
Ireland
1 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2007 : 11:35:15 AM
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Hi Shiva,
If you want an audio of how to pronounce bija mantra Shrim, Please email me - emofree@eircom.net
Times have changed,you are your own Guru!
Namaste,
Billy
quote:
Originally posted by shivakm
I am practicing the Deep meditation outlined here in AYP for the last 2-3 months. One of my friend visited me last weekend. He is practicing yoga/meditation for several years. Some one that I respect very much for his knowledge on these subjects. When we are talking about meditation, he mentioned that the Mantras should only be given by a Guru directly (verbally, pronounced right) to a disciple. He said that the mantras will not have the full effect unless it was given directly by guru. I questioned as to why it is so and he mentioned that the most important thing with the mantras are how they are pronounced. A Guru can teach some one how to pronounce a mantra, and if the disciple makes a mistake the Guru can correct the mistake. I wondered as to how difficult it will be for some one to learn to pronounce "I AM" (I am not using this mantra, I am using the bija mantra Shrim in my meditation) and raised this question. But he kept insisting that even though the mantras may be one word, we could still pronounce it wrong. And only a Guru can teach this properly. I just dismissed his comments thinking that it was just his belief. But after couple of days I realized that this discussion produced a nagging doubt in the back of my mind. I was born and brought up in India and obviously we attach a great status and respect to the Gurus. The Gurus are given a status which is above that of GOD. So, I began to wonder whether I am pronouncing the mantra that I use properly? Should I get it only from a proper teacher and then use it? I am asking this question for all the mantras including "I AM". Could we pronounce it wrong? I have also heard from several other teachers in India that Vedic mantras should only be taught by a Guru and pronouncing them wrong may not produce desired effects and some times could produce negative effects also. I am really impressed by the lessons on AYP and that motivated me to start my meditation. But I would like to get the opinion of others on this forum about the view that the mantra should only be taught by a Guru personally.
Shiva.
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2007 : 08:18:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by shivakm
...When we are talking about meditation, he mentioned that the Mantras should only be given by a Guru directly (verbally, pronounced right) to a disciple. He said that the mantras will not have the full effect unless it was given directly by guru.
Hi Shiva,
I've heard this very same assertion from others for many years now. And, I don't buy it at all. I'll tell you why I don't: I've found that in my many years of contemplative practice, and using a wide variety of objects of meditation, that the sole purpose of any object of meditation is to calm, tranquilize and focus the mind enough to allow it to enter Samadhi (i.e. meditative absorption). After that, the initial object is dropped - regardless of what it was - and the Samadhi becomes the new object of meditation, if one wishes to deepen it.
No object of meditation is any more potent than another, if that object gives one something wholesome, positive or neutral, and calming to reflect upon until one enters Samadhi. However, if one has an affinity, or liking, for a particular object of meditation, then, of course, it will be more useful for one. Nobody enjoys focusing on things that they don't care for. And, if one doesn't enjoy one's object of meditation, it will hardly be useful to them - this would simply make meditation a bothersome chore.
In my opinion, and experience, the assertion that "the mantra must be given by a guru" is put forth simply to promote discipleship - nothing more and nothing less.
I suspect your friend is just parroting what has been taught to him.
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha
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Edited by - Nirodha on Apr 06 2007 08:40:23 AM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2007 : 6:33:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nirodha:
"In my opinion, and experience, the assertion that "the mantra must be given by a guru" is put forth simply to promote discipleship - nothing more and nothing less."
Namaste Nirodha:
With all due respect for your opinion and experience, from my point of view, your quoted comment is really quite absurd.
Certainly there are a great many people nowadays who believe that they can master yoga, martial arts, or whatever, merely through self-directed learning and casual practice of material gleaned from books, magazines, audio and video tapes, DVD's, internet forums, and so forth. There's no need for a mentor, right? After all, they can't practice for us, right? Only we can practice for ourselves. So why bother with a teacher, right?
Never mind that some such individuals are actually impeccably honest and ethical people, profoundly learned, highly educated, spiritually self-realized, and vastly experienced practitioners. Never mind that they have clearly already reached the goals we aspire to, have already acquired the skills we seek, have already learned what we wish to know...and...are willing to share the fruits of their generally long and arduous personal efforts to help us duplicate their accomplishments. But so what, right? How could we even remotely benefit by any of that, right? This isn't sounding at all absurd to you?
And yet, if we attempt to learn any of these things from books or video tapes, DVD's, etc., are we not essentially placing the authors and producers of such learning materials in the position of a personal master or guru? Are we not hoping to acquire knowledge and abilities from them, and are we not trusting that they've actually 'done their homework' sufficiently to advise and instruct in these things?
But here's the catch! If we are beginners or relatively inexperienced in what we are trying to learn, how can we know with certainty that the author or producer of our self-instruction materials really knows what they're talking about? How can be sure that we won't injure ourselves physically, or worse yet, spiritually, by following their instructions? Or at the very least, how can we rest assured that we're not just wasting our time by practicing what we find in such sources? These are pretty good questions, right? 
My own Yoga Guru, the late Swami Narayanananda, never accepted money or gifts from his disciples, and never sought fame and wealth while he was alive. He lived the simple life of a Renunciate Sannyasin Monk from the age of 18 until he died by his own yogic powers at the time and place of his own choosing.
I can tell you that he truly didn't give a hoot about the status of being a guru, and was by my reckoning completely without ego attachments of any kind. It is often quite unsettling to many people to experience the Divine Presence which emanates from such a Teacher. I knew from day one that this was a saintly person who was most likely the first person I had ever known who didn't WANT anything from me, didn't demand anything of me, didn't expect anything from me. Initially, I didn't know how to deal with THAT!
He could 'read' anyone like an open book, and would simply cut through all of the crap to exactly pinpoint the greatest obstacles to a given student's spiritual progress. And could do so in such a way that I for one always marveled that I had never seen that myself. I finally concluded that I was probably suffering from ESP...Extra Slow Perception! LOL
But then his was a unique perspective...i.e. the perspective of a highly accomplished Yogi with many decades of Sadhana experience, including the achievement of Nirvikalpa Samadhi! This is the benefit of a genuine Guru, IMO. I sincerely believe that he helped me accelerate my spiritual self-realization in many, many ways. This is the benefit of a genuine Guru, IMO.
I'm not saying that this is the ONLY way to properly learn, but it's a great way to do so if the right opportunity comes along, and shouldn't be totally discounted and dismissed out of hand as devoid of any value like some folks are inclined to do! 
Hari OM!
Doc
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2007 : 7:40:56 PM
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Shivakm wrote:
quote:
"Even though the comment was given on some other subject, it struck a cord within me. Bhakti. Yes, I do need to have certain belief in what I am doing."
Bhakti is devotion to a higher ideal, not a belief in what you are doing. This brings me to what Doc said above.
Of course the guidance you received from a guru was of great value to you, and should not be discounted. But the misunderstanding comes from one person finding great value in a guru, and assuming that this guru would have the same value for everyone. That's where the 'guru in you' comes into play. Each person will encounter things of great value along their own path, and these things can be different for each person. And many will have paths with things in common.
Along the path of enlightenment we "let go" by losing our ego. But it is the ego that likes to grab onto things and declare that they have value. So putting any guru up on a pedestal can possibly be detrimental to your progress. If you're going to let go of everything, that includes your guru.
So it's best to practice twice a day without thinking you have any "special" kind of mantra or practice or guru, it's just practicing. Then instead of believing in your practice, you direct your devotion to your highest ideal.
Of course, being exposed to a great person can feed the fire of your bhakti if you don't idolize them.
And true, Doc, nobody should belittle the value found by others along their path.
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Edited by - Etherfish on Apr 06 2007 7:46:30 PM |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2007 : 9:58:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
quote:
Originally posted by Nirodha:
"In my opinion, and experience, the assertion that "the mantra must be given by a guru" is put forth simply to promote discipleship - nothing more and nothing less."
Namaste Nirodha:
With all due respect for your opinion and experience, from my point of view, your quoted comment is really quite absurd.
Hello Doc,
Well, that's fine. You have your experience and opinion, and I have mine - I just threw my 2 cents on the table.
However, I'm not going to attempt to impose my values on you by engaging you in some sort of debate over the issue. Therefore, I think it's best that we just agree that we disagree about this.
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2007 : 08:10:01 AM
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Hi Nirodha:
That's fine by me. I wasn't looking for a debate, but merely expressing my humble opinion based on a different experience than yours. You obviously haven't been blessed with the opportunity to learn from an authentic guru thus far, but maybe a self-realized teacher will appear on your horizon sometime in the future.
Blessed Be!
Doc |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2007 : 09:11:14 AM
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| Or maybe Nirodha will make the same discoveries without the direct contact of a guru or teacher. Spiritual energy is increasing. . . |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2007 : 10:15:27 AM
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Indeed! Maybe he will ...or maybe he won't.  God alone knows with certainty. But time will tell, eh?
Hari Om Tatsat Jai Guru Datta!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Apr 07 2007 10:23:37 AM |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2007 : 10:48:30 AM
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quote:
You obviously haven't been blessed with the opportunity to learn from an authentic guru thus far, but maybe a self-realized teacher will appear on your horizon sometime in the future.
Hello Etherfish and Doc,
I've actually had many teachers. However, the best ones, to me, were the ones that encouraged independence, self-sufficiency, self-exploration, self-reflection and critical thinking. My last one even certified me to teach - although I did distant myself from his fledgling organization, simply because I don't wish to be overly involved in it, and I have some conflicts with him regarding his interpersonal style. They never asserted that I must receive teachings, techniques and objects of meditation directly from them, or else these would be ineffective. Nor, did they insist that I even believe what they taught.
However, the worst ones did make these nonsense, egocentric, controlling assertions. And, some of them would get quite abusive if I didn't tow the line. As a result, I kicked them to the curb after a short while - I'm too willful and independent to tolerate that rubbish for long.
Therefore, Doc, I think it was rather unwise of you to jump to conclusions about my point of view without knowing at least some of the details of my background. I'm not taking a dig at you. However, if you're going to be that forward with me, then I will be direct with you. 
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha |
Edited by - Nirodha on Apr 07 2007 11:31:50 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2007 : 5:57:19 PM
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Norodha said:
In my opinion, and experience, the assertion that "the mantra must be given by a guru" is put forth simply to promote discipleship - nothing more and nothing less.
In behavior within a tradition, it's often hard to separate individual motivations from the dictates and beliefs of the tradition itself. So Nirodha, I would go with you some of the way on this but not all the way -- I don't believe all gurus who make that assertion do it to promote discipleship. But some of them knowingly do. Others, however, say it merely because that is what they learned and they believe it, whether true or not.
Then there is the question about how a belief like that got a hold in the tradition, and, indeed, priestcraft may well be part of the story; if someone thinks you have magical powers, they are more apt to serve you. But then on the other hand, it's not necessarily all priestcraft either, but partly quality-control. And school and knowledge preservation.
As far as I am concerned, looking at traditions like that, there is no point in trying to reduce them and their motivations to either all-good or all-bad. They are what they are. They have stuff that was always bad, stuff that was one good but now bad, and stuff that was one good and still is.
A more important question than the question of their individual motivations is 'is it true'? I don't believe it is. In fact, I am sure that a mantra not received from a guru can be highly beneficial.
Probably most of us here (though not necessarily all) believe that. We are swinging around to realize that that is the truth. That is the changing, the evolving, of tradition.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 07 2007 6:16:25 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2007 : 08:25:28 AM
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Hi Doc,Norodha,
Well Doc we have had our differences in the past but I agree entirely with your experience with your satguru as mine are similar.There are few gurus such as you had/have but I have been blessed to find such a one also.When I met my teacher who is a disciple of guruji, she gave me the mahamritunjaya intiation by distance.On reading the words which I couldn't pronounce at that time, my face lit up with energy and it was all tingling.Further mantras I have been given by guruji have had similar effects and have made a big difference in my practice.Even now beginning meditation and connecting to guruji makes for deeper meditation and instant kriyas just by connecting.
As far as encouraging practice,my guru simply encourages one to practice as much as possible.Once one has intiation there is no need for further talk really as talking does not advance your path, just as reading scriptures will not unless you practice.Whether one believes receiving a mantra from a guru makes a difference(and I think it needs to be a realised guru)or not, having a realised guru makes a difference.I have found no need to self pace and have never experienced cleansing or problems with shakti as some on here have and neither have my students, although I beleive inner guidance needs to be listened to on this.Just my thoughts.
L&L
Dave |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2007 : 10:47:43 AM
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I do agree that having a realized teacher can make a remarkable difference to one's experience. My last one was; he had reached what would referred to as Nirvikalpa Samadhi and I even received shaktipat from him during a week-long meditation retreat I did with him several months back. However, receiving shaktipat from him was not any more intense than the kundalini awakenings I had experienced, as a result of my own practice, prior to finally meeting him face-to-face. And, when I'm very diligent in my practices, I can easily replicate these experiences alone.
Therefore, I still standby my assertion that it's totally unnecessary to receive a mantra, or any other object of meditation, directly from a guru in order for it to be effective - I never have. And, that the sole purpose of such an assertion is simply to promote discipleship.
I'll let you all in on a little tip: One can easily self-initiate if one knows how. And, how does one do this? By using one's object of meditation to reach samadhi (meditative absorption) as often as possible.
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha |
Edited by - Nirodha on Apr 08 2007 12:43:34 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2007 : 3:30:40 PM
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Hi Niroda,
Yes it is unnecessary to receive a mantra from a realised guru to get results, millions of TM followers can attest to that.But to get from a realised guru will give greater results.Following AYP will give greater results than TM.
I don't know what your experiences of shaktipat were but I have never repeated mine in practices and do try to do so would be counter productive, as you know experiences are simply that and no sign of levels.
Self intiate?You mean you are going to intiate yourself(connect)to any guru's energies by self will?
I'll give you a tip. Anyone can self intiate to Reiki simply by being open but it still doesn't teach you how to use the energies to maximum results.
L&L
Dave |
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Mantra to be given only by a Guru?
