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elderberry
USA
49 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 10 2024 : 10:55:51 PM
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AYP wisely points out the effects of karma on the human nervous system. The analogy often given in AYP is that of attempting to clean a window. Spiritual practices slowly but surely clean the window of the soul. However, it is theoretically possible to shovel dirt onto one's spiritual window faster than spiritual practices can clean them off.
The classic example given in AYP is the example of addiction. Worst case seems to be addiction to physical substances. Until one gets a handle on their drug or alcohol addictions, spiritual progress is unlikely to take off in a significant way. Granted, spiritual practices may help you gain more awareness to fight one's addiction. But at the end of the day, you need to stop shoveling dirt onto one's spiritual window before you can make real progress in human spiritual development.
The core of my question is this:
What types of behaviors, specifically, hinder spiritual progress?
In reading through the AYP lessons, it seems that only two main instructions are given in terms of behavioral regulation. Avoid legitimate addictions, and avoid harming others. Everything outside of that seems to be fair game, up until the point where one's inner silence calls oneself to behave differently.
However, even with this view, I feel as if I hold a mental image of what someone on the spiritual path should or should not do.
For example, if one loved more than anything to surf, and one decided to surf all day long in their spare time, I would not expect this to have negative repercussions on one's spiritual development.
However, let's suppose an individual's favorite thing was to go on dates and have sex. Let's suppose that in one's spare time a spiritual practitioner was going on loads of dates and maintaining sexual relationships with a variety of different women. He is always practicing ahimsa (non-harm) and being open and honest with his partners about his dealings. He is engaging in tantric practices and always has pre-orgasmic sex.
In my mind's eye, the first example seems "good" and the second example seems "bad" in terms of supporting spiritual development. However, I cannot actually find anything in the AYP texts to support this belief. Part of me feels like this is a correct intuition pointing towards truth. Part of me feels like this is a belief fed to me by cultural imagery, and it is not necessarily grounded in truth.
Assuming there is no legitimate addiction present, is freely engaging in sexual abundance any worse than surfing all day long in terms of supporting our spiritual development?
And if the answer is yes, then why? And where do we draw the line?
Does this also imply that other highly "pleasurable" activities like attempting to accumulate wealth, playing lots of video games, also hinder spiritual progress?
I would imagine that, with the rise of the witness, the appeal of many of these things will naturally fall away as we surrender to the joy of outpouring divine love and service, more so than personal pleasures.
However, for those of us who are still tempted by these sorts of behaviors, what is the most spiritually conducive way to behave in the meantime? Can we have our cake and eat it too? |
Edited by - elderberry on Aug 10 2024 11:03:05 PM |
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th1996
Germany
37 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2024 : 4:49:40 PM
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In my case, video games are an hindernice on the path because it?s mentally very exhausting and I have to digest mentally very much. It is like eating to much.
To accumulate wealth I think it depends on different aspects. What do u do with your wealth? Are u using it for good use and serve others? Is it in balance with the divine flow? Wealth often means living on costs of our planet. So, when it is aligned with our planet?s ressources and is used for good purpose I don?t see any negative Karma there.
And to the guy who is dating very much. If we interagate with others, there is a lot of space where Karma can be created. And having sex with someone is exchanging the energy, so there can be some negative karmic reaction.(at least I have read this a lot of times, and find this logical.)
But in this context I would like to ask a question. In AYP, we say that spiritual progress is mostly about the quality in life. In other spiritual traditions, people say that spiritual progress is when karma is reduced and no new karma is created. (negative or positive)
So, when I increase the quality of my life, it can lead to new (mainly positive) karma. For example when I manifesting my inner wishes through manifestations techniques. Through this I create new karma, but also improve my quality of life. I mean, for some people having sex with lots of different people is increasing the quality of life, but it creates on the other hand lots of karma. So, isn?t it to easy to say that spiritual progress is showing up through increasing our quality of life?
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Mithuna
France
16 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2024 : 11:41:23 AM
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Hi Elderberry.
Part of the answer is to consider the energetic impact of our behaviors and the dependencies they can generate.
If we return to the definition of the Yoga of the Ys "Yoga Chitta vrittis nirodha" (YS 1-2) the resorption of mental operations leading to the discovery of inner silence, the modifications of the mind are indeed classified according to the energetic impact with which they project our consciousness towards its externality, whether it is content of the external world or content internal to our psyche but external to our consciousness.
We can thus understand the classification made in YS 1-5 "the changes of the mind are fivefold and are painful or not painful". This statement may come as a surprise: where are the pleasant modifications? Thus, in the continuity of your question, any pleasant modification carries a risk of dependence, and the stronger the dependence, the more it will become a "thief of consciousness " alienating our internal energy at the expense of "the dwelling of the Drastr" (YS 1.3).
One of the fruits of a resolute and sustained practice, the emergence of inner silence develops in us an awareness of this risk as soon as it becomes dangerous, likely to establish a psychosomatic energy dependence that not only harms our practice by projecting our consciousness in a lasting way outwards, but can affect our entire personal balance. Under these conditions, each tendency to develop an addiction generates spiritual suffering, a flashing light from our Witness that warns of the beginning of a loosening of the link with our depth. And this flashing light will be all the more preventive as our practice is continuous and if we have glimpsed the unadulterated fullness of the effusion of inner silence.
Your example of surfing illustrates this point in two ways. First of all, if surfing practiced in a balanced way by the requirement of physical and mental concentration that is its can only strengthen our energy potential, an excessive dependence that would polarize our life towards an ever more exacerbated search for the stimuli that this activity provides would entail a risk of creating a form of dependence that is not compatible with our sadhana.
Furthermore, using the example of surfing, if we compare the spiritual path to a form of surfing at the crest of our consciousness, what will be dangerous is what will make us lose our center. The surfer by lowering his consciousness into his center maintains his stability despite the movements of the waves, the "chitta vrittis" which will not be the case if his body consciousness loses this center. Thus the development of inner silence within us elaborates in us a form of center, of deep resilience. If we are installed in this center, the waves of affects will not destabilize us, conversely if we are not sufficiently rooted, they will carry us away and then our destiny risks escaping us.
Your second example is explicit and your wording very clear. Even if it is not a question of unbridled and selfish sexuality, obviously not very compatible with a serious practice but as you insist on ahimsa and an effort to integrate this addiction into a tantric practice, if we come back to the energetic criterion a bad practice will mean an energy loss but a pre-orgasmic practice should increase the internal energy. However apart from the difficulty of finding a tantric partner in the multiplicity of experiences, a "Don Juan" search revealing dissatisfaction will end up feeding a bottomless pit and it is legitimate to classify it as bad.
Generally speaking, an addiction that is too pronounced will be an obstacle that can stand in the way, even if we are committed and sincere. This subject is addressed many times by Yogani (lessons 29 and 308 among others), it joins the member of Yama restraints considered in the second chapter (Sadhana Pada) as the pillar of the eight members. However, Yogani explains very clearly (lesson 149) why he places meditation (basis of the first chapter Samadhi Pada) as the basis of other practices. Fighting an addiction or in general any dependence on an inner representation or an external element is very complicated, while the awareness of the psychic and sensual plenitude that comes from inner silence is a lever of great power.
In some cases, new sources of addiction may emerge. The alchemical process of purification that takes place in us coagulates latent contents. Each emerging content concentrates within itself a reservoir of energy that can seek an external outlet or, on the contrary, strengthen our ishta, the engine of our commitment. Once again, the practice of meditation that has coagulated this content will allow it to dissolve into inner silence.
In summary, to answer your question precisely, we are not responsible to moral precepts, nor even to an external God who rewards or punishes, but to our Conscience, the Witness, the Inner Master, or more precisely to the process of transformation that we initiated the day we decided to embark on the path of Yoga, without forgetting that every choice is ours because this path will always be a path of freedom....
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interpaul
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2024 : 06:48:07 AM
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| Elderberry, When I joined the forum about 5 years ago I posed many questions about pleasure. AYP was the first practice I became aware of that spoke of ecstatic states as a critical part of the path. Many religions deny our fundamental nature, creating all sorts of rules of conduct around sex. I found AYP after a Kundalini awakening. Cultivating these newly discovered energies has been a major focus for me over the last few years. I sense a similar exploration in your query. What I have learned in testing the boundaries on these practices is that ecstatic energies have no limits and can certainly take one's attention off the goal of a more balanced practice. It all seems to be found in the balance, a yin and yang sort of thing. I've often thought of ecstatic conductivity as a charge on a battery. Bramacharya, and other practices can certainly charge the battery. Many batteries have the longest life when they aren't fully charged. Likewise depleting a battery and recharging again and again can shorten its life and make it less reliable. The message I'e received over and over again is to cultivate inner silence. If you have a willing partner(s) you are in a position to explore some intense energetic states. I suspect, given how thoughtful you are, you have an intuitive sense of when you are out of balance or moving in the direction of an "addiction". With respect to your surfing analogy I'm reminded of a tv series I watched last year called "100 foot wave" . It was an exploration of the legend Garrett McNamara's obsession with riding massive waves. He pushed again and again causing himself and those around him repeated suffering. In the end he seemed to come to a realization his actions had consequences. This makes me wonder if your question about the safety/harm of going deep into pleasure in order to advance ones spiritual progress. Since we don't live in a vacuum we can't avoid having impact on those around us. |
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elderberry
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2024 : 10:11:46 PM
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Mithuna,
Thank you for such a thoughtful reply. Your reply had a lot of gold to dig through, so it took me a while to digest it. The main points I gleaned from it were:
1. You made a really interesting point regarding being careful around things which "project our consciousness towards its externality". This is an absolutely fascinating way of reframing things. I can build a strong case for why I may or may not be "addicted" to XYZ thing. However it is abundantly clear to me that things like sex/chasing girls massively root my consciousness in externality. No question about it. I really like this reframe because it somewhat removes the ego from the equation when assessing things. It can be hard to admit we are addicted to things. It can be even harder when its more subtle things like food and sex (rather then drugs and alcohol). But changing the question to "does it bring your consciousness outwards rather than inwards?" brings much more clarity to the situation
2. "the changes of the mind are fivefold and are painful or not painful". I have pondered this quote a bit and, I must admit, I am not entirely sure what to make of it. What do you interpret this quote to mean?
3. "the emergence of inner silence develops in us an awareness of this risk as soon as it becomes dangerous". For me, this may be the most impactful thing that you pointed out. The very fact that I am asking this question shows, deep down, I have an intuition that chasing sex will hinder my spiritual progress. You wisely point out that, this voice which causes me to ask this question to begin with, may be much wiser than I give it credit for. I can't remember the exact quote, but with regards to the yamas and niyamas I believe yogani said something along the lines of "don't force things, but also do not ignore the whispers inside yourself". Most yamas/niyamas/spiritual intuition, when they first arise, start as merely a whisper. It would pay dearly to listen to those whispers.
4. I am reading between the lines a bit with this one, but you seem to imply that complete Ahimsa + application of tantric principles while simultaneously chasing loads of girls is idealistic thinking, and not likely based in reality. This, I think, is an extremely fair point. I will admit my original post reads a bit like those high school physics problems which start by saying "assuming there is no friction, calculate XYZ". Well, unfortunately the real world will always have friction. I agree, the premise of complete ahimsa and adherence to tantric principles in this situation is trending towards unrealistic.
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Edited by - elderberry on Aug 17 2024 11:48:48 PM |
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elderberry
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2024 : 10:19:39 PM
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Interpaul,
Really good stuff. You brought up some very similar thoughts I had. In certain individuals with certain proclivities, there are some who could take something as generally benign as surfing, and engage with it in a way which is potentially just as addictive, harmful and psychologically damaging as drugs and alcohol.
So perhaps on way of looking at "good" and "bad" in this regard is our projected likelihood of that behavior occurring for any given habit. There are probably a few Garrett McNamaras out there, but most of us can have a healthy relationship with surfing. Drugs and alcohol on the other hand, there are probably some who can have a healthy relationship with them, but most of us on the bell curve will quickly trend towards and unhealthy relationship.
Sexuality is probably somewhere in the middle, and is likely extremely specific to the individual. Some people seem wired to be insanely drawn to it, some seem to not care about it at all. Like you said, it would behoove us to have some self-awareness and know where we fall on this specific spectrum, and to nip addictive or harmful tendencies in the bud wherever possible, regardless of weather the underlying activity is surfing, sex, or drugs. |
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Mithuna
France
16 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2024 : 1:18:47 PM
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Thank you Elderberry for this beautiful exchange and the important points you highlight.
Your question about YS 1-5 "the changes of the mind are quintuple and are painful or not painful" is indeed very legitimate.
If this classification may challenge us, by evading what could fall into the category of "pleasant" operations, it remains perfectly logical and takes on a particular meaning once replaced in the course of the YS.
After having given as the basis of spiritual practice (YS 1-2) "the resorption of mental operations" fully corresponding to the basis of Yogani's teaching, placing DM and opening to inner silence at the center of his teaching, the YS set out the result in an extremely concise way, the result "the Seer is installed in his own nature(YS 1.3). Then YS explain in an implacable way what happens as soon as we let our consciousness project itself towards its externality (YS 1.4), thus identifying itself with the psychosomatic contents of consciousness that monopolize it. It is here in YS 1.5 that they classify this content as "quintuple and painful or non-painful".
Such a diagnosis can be understood in two ways.
First of all, the observation that any pleasant perception will necessarily experience a backlash all the more intense as we have settled in it, as the previous sutra analyzed. Indeed, such a pleasant modification contains in itself a seed of suffering, because it will be the cause of an attachment and the more intense the attachment will be, whether physical (attachment to material goods or even to the body), sensory, as you evoke in the multiplicity of sensual experiences, emotional (to a person) or even to an idea, whatever its nobility, there will inevitably come a day when the very object of this attachment (or at least its representation and affective content) will degrade or disappear. And the stronger the attachment, the greater the suffering.
But if we remain in the logic of the unfolding of the first sutras, we will see another meaning emerge. The Ys are not for me a speculative exposition but a guide to inner transformation, a true treatise on spiritual alchemy that speaks to us of the dissolution of the contents of consciousness that structure our inner world and of the transmutation of the energies that they monopolized for the benefit of the progressive coagulation of the spiritual form of the Drastr. the Seer, the pure consciousness referred to in sutra 1.3.
Understood in this way, everything that, charged with affect, attracts us to the externality of our consciousness will be painful, and not painful is anything that, appearing in the field of consciousness, has no profound impact on the stability of the Drastr: any "Pathos" that is pleasant or painful in the sense of our personality that takes us out of our center becomes painful. The more intense the emotional charge, the more real the risk of fully identifying with the story it invests will be and can only generate suffering, a spiritual suffering which is the separation from our Drastr, but also in the long term a personal suffering as a consequence of an attachment to an object external to the Pure consciousness, the Drastr.
The two sufferings can be disjointed: as we persevere in our practice, the emergence of the inner silence, the dwelling place of the Drastr is accompanied by the appearance of this new meaning that you evoke, making our harmony or disharmony with our depth perceptible. Physical, emotional or mental fulfillment can be accompanied by a feeling of deep disharmony. In some cases this feeling will be conscious, sometimes even felt somatically, as a malaise or an energetic deficiency, in other cases barely perceptible as a dull malaise that we can choose to ignore like an unwelcome troublemaker, thus forgetting the signal of our own nature. Your perception " The very fact that I am asking this question shows, deep down, I have an intuition that chasing sex will hinder my spiritual progress" clearly testifies to the emergence of an inner sense that is the result of continuous practice. As we evolve, what could have been acceptable until then or even useful must be dissolved: the expression of the centrifugal energies mobilized must be reabsorbed into inner silence. Once again, it is the inner silence that is the conductor of this transformation: the refinement of our inner sense is also a feeling of the right moment. A premature personal will may fail and a late decision will struggle to pull out tangled roots.
But any suffering resulting from the perception of a break with the tenuous link that unites us with our Drastr can become an opportunity. The recognition of a parasitic movement of our consciousness generates a flashing light, a signal whose acuity reflects the energy mobilized and the risk of inner fragmentation and spiritual stasis. In a deeper and deeper way, the awareness of spiritual suffering, which is separation from our real being, becomes the fuel of our Ishta, our desire for union which leads to a deepening and enrichment of our practice. At the same time, the stronger our Ishta becomes, the more the discovery of inner fullness, emanation of the Drastr, allows us to let these projections dissolve in a natural and obvious way. The purity of clear water from the depths quenches our thirst more than the most heady alcohols.
On the other hand, I have sometimes gone through difficult times, like all of us, but felt the presence of the Drastr strongly, not as a cold and impassive observer, but as a soothing and motivating reality.
In this process of spiritual alchemy, any energy thus transmuted instead of dispersing outwards feeds the condensation that inexorably weaves the luminous dwelling of pure consciousness, the Drastr prefiguring the undivided plenitude of the Union.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2024 : 06:05:43 AM
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From Xinxinming by Chan Master Sengcan - Poems on Faith in Mind
The supreme Way has no difficulty,
Just dislikes picking and choosing
This book brings it all down to the bare, the minimal, I find.
Sey  |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2024 : 06:59:21 AM
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quote:
the changes of the mind are fivefold and are painful or not painful. I have pondered this quote a bit and, I must admit, I am not entirely sure what to make of it. What do you interpret this quote to mean?
Mithuna has done an excellent job of explaining the "painful or not painful" consequence. I believe the fivefold changes to the mind is referring to our five senses. Our mind reacts to data from our five sense.
Sey |
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The Perils of Pleasure on the Spiritual Path
