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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 18 2007 : 9:29:55 PM
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I'm curious if anyone knows about Sant Rajinder Sing Ji Maharaj and the Science of Spirituality. Is anyone familiar with him, and if so, what do you think of his teachings?
www.sos.org/webpage/santmat/srs.html |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2007 : 5:40:06 PM
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Hi Meg
I had a look at the website and was quite intrigued at the level of his following.
The meditation seems to me to be not centred in the body, but in effect, takes one out of the body so that we can look down from a "soul" perspective and see the futility of our struggle.
I would personally be very wary of this approach, to me it does not include a purification process and thus allows for the possibility of an ungrounded practice. This kind of practice would seem similar to the classical Christian approach of "upper body" spiritualisation, which can lead to dysfunctional behaviour, often of a sexual nature, which is something we have become familiar with in some churches.
I may be doing the Sant Mat approach an injustice and if so, I apologise, but this is the way it strikes me at a glance.
Louis
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2007 : 12:51:42 AM
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Hi Louis,
I had a look at this website too, and I was intrigued as to why you think that the meditation taught is an out-of-this-body-one?
The description of the meditation practice that I found on the site looks like this:
quote:
Jyoti and Shabd Meditation
Under the guidance of Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj, seekers from all over the world and all walks of life are freely taught the Sant Mat method of meditation whereby they experience the inner Light and Sound of God reverberating within themselves.
A natural method involving no rigorous postures, meditation on the inner Light and Sound involves concentration of the attention at the third or single eye located between and behind the two eyebrows. With daily practice, students can transcend physical consciousness and explore inner realms of sonorous Light.
Jyoti Meditation
An introductory form of meditation on inner Light, this method familiarizes students with the process of meditation by helping them to focus their attention at the single or third eye-behind and between the eyebrows-where divine Light manifests within.
Shabd Meditation
For those wishing to further their meditation practice, Shabd meditation is offered. Through initiation by the living, spiritual Master, students meditate on the inner manifestations of the divine Light and Sound of God.
(Note: The Shabd meditation practice requires abstinence from alcohol and recreational drugs as well as adherence to a lacto-vegetarian diet.)
By practicing meditation for an hour or two every day, we will find great rewards:
Increased concentration, which can be applied to our workaday life.
Increased attention span, which allows us to learn and process more information.
Physical well-being and relief from stress that causes physical ailments.
A calmer, more relaxed attitude toward problems in our worldly life.
We begin to experience ourselves as soul, thus beginning our journey of self-knowledge and God-realization.
As our connection to our soul and to God deepens, we radiate profound love to everyone around us.
Jyoti means Light in Sanskrit, and in this case is the divine light seen in the Ajna Chakra. This is described in the AYP lessons as the star. On the SOS website the point of focus given for this meditation is between and just behind the eyebrows. That sounds like in the body to me. Also, the Shabd, which means sound in Sanskrit, is the Omkara, or Ohm sound. My experience of this sound is that it is initially experienced in the head, and can move in intensity to different parts of the head. It relates to the Ajna and Sahasrara chakras. This is in the body as well.
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The meditation seems to me to be not centred in the body, but in effect, takes one out of the body so that we can look down from a "soul" perspective and see the futility of our struggle.
I would agree that there does seem to be an obsession with entering the divine light, and leaving the physical body through the Ajna chakra, but then this process is also discussed in the AYP lessons. If someone practiced meditation at the Ajna chakra, on the divine light, the body would automatically go through an intense purification process, and would need to be in a highly purified state before the consciousness could leave the physical body. This is why people who only practice meditation, say by staring at a wall for several hours a day, experience kundalini awakening symptoms. The act of focusing the attention on anything at all awakens kundalini, and purifies the body.
quote:
I would personally be very wary of this approach, to me it does not include a purification process and thus allows for the possibility of an ungrounded practice.
I would agree with you here about the ungrounded aspect. There does not seem to be any inbuilt grounding techniques built into the practice, or added on as recommendations to do outside of practices.
Personally I have recently started to practice both the light and sound meditations in addition to my AYP practice. The sound meditation, I can hardly avoid, as at times the Ohm sound is so loud that I find it difficult to hear people who are talking to me. This isn't normally the case, but it happens more often nowadays. I use the light meditation as I am interested to see if it works as a useful addition to AYP practices or not. But I wouldn't necessarily recommend either of these meditation practices to beginners. This is because of the energy overload potential, and the ungroundedness of the technique that you mention.
It would be interesting to know if anyone in the forum has practiced these meditations and would recommend them. Or if anyone has experienced problems with energy build-up in the head, or over active crown symptoms, as a result of these practices?
Christi
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2007 : 09:01:53 AM
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I've had several conversations with a practitioner, who follows the Master, as she calls him. The first thing mentioned was the movement inward; finding the Light within, and therefore I'd agree with Christi that if there is any occurrence of leaving the body, it is only incidental, and not emphasized as a practice. My friend also said that they work directly with the chakras, beginning with the ajna chakra, which surprises me, as it seems an advanced practice for a beginner who may have a lot of purification to deal with first. Also, during meditation (2.5 hrs. a day is recommended) sensory deprivation is encouraged, thereby allowing the practitioner to turn inward to the inner landscape and experience the lights/sights/sounds there. My alarm went off here, as it would seem that experiences are given considerable emphasis, and we all know where that leads. Although, to be fair, she said that students are not to discuss their experiences with one another, to avoid the pitfalls of scenery-envy. The sensory deprivation is also used as a tool to focus on the mind; essentially starving the 5 senses in order to bring full attention to the mind and its wanderings.
What impressed me the most was my friend's bhakti, and the great lengths she goes to in order to follow her Master. Is it bhakti? When one will stop at nothing to be with their beloved teacher? Or something else. I consider Yogani to be my 'teacher', as it is he who has put me the path inward, but I can't imagine why I would follow him around the country, if that were an option, when I could sit here in the comfort of my closet and read his lessons online. :) |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2007 : 09:32:30 AM
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Hi Christi
The main problem I see is that for the person who has not opened their lowered chakras - sexual and emotional in particular - and who would not experience the kundalini up through the spine or body, the enrgy can be confined to the upper body, from the heart up.
It is still in the body as such, great love can be felt through the heart, light can be experienced and a feeling of well being and peace can be experienced.
Great, one might say, what more could we ask for?.
I'm sure you know that if the lower chakras are ignored the spirituality can be unbalanced and result in suppressed emotions and sexual dysfunction. This is what I am talking about.
I don't agree that just because someone seems open and clear in the upper chakras that this means the lower one automatically get cleared. This has not been my personal experience and it is not the experience of many people in the healing field, who often come into this field because of their association with the divine light but are often quite ungrounded and have a lot of emotional problems.
I'm not saying this applies to everyone but it does leave the possibility of ungroundedness.
I agree it would be an interesting avenue to explore with AYP once a certain level of purification has been achieved. At what stage this would be I am not sure.
On the other hand,my feeling on it would be that as we come more and more into the present moment of just simply "being" that all those levels and chakras above the normal seven are also being cleared.
In the audio version of the second meditation on the "resource section" on that website, it talked about eventually reaching the level of awareness of being "one with all" ( or words to that effect). This is the same awareness proposed in AYP, in Buddhism and other practices. The difference, as I see it, is that AYP and Buddhism experience this fully in the body, grounded fully in relationship with the people and things around them.
Louis 
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2007 : 11:34:29 AM
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Thanks for your replies, Louis. This is moving away from the original topic, but since the subject has come up... My experience has been an opening of the chakras starting with the heart and moving upward. It wasn't until after a significant opening at ajna that I experienced any energy in my lower chakras, namely, the 2nd chakra. As that opens, then the activity in the upper chakras increases dramatically. So I've been working with the lower chakras, coaxing them to open in order for the energy to have a less-congested pathway. I have absolutely no sensation of energy in the 1st chakra, thus mulabandha is done on faith rather than results. Same with third chakra, which is odd, since it is directly related to ego, and mine is substantial.
The random order of chakra opening seems to be out of most everyone's control, and I'm wondering therefore if it's not random at all, but geared toward the psychic needs of the individual. I feel quite grounded, in spite of the fact that my lower chakras are relatively inactive.
(This post should undoubtedly be placed elsewhere; I'll leave that to a moderator to decide. Thanks, and sorry!) :) |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2007 : 01:25:48 AM
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Hi Sparkle,
quote:
Hi Christi
The main problem I see is that for the person who has not opened their lowered chakras - sexual and emotional in particular - and who would not experience the kundalini up through the spine or body, the enrgy can be confined to the upper body, from the heart up.
It is still in the body as such, great love can be felt through the heart, light can be experienced and a feeling of well being and peace can be experienced.
Great, one might say, what more could we ask for?.
I'm sure you know that if the lower chakras are ignored the spirituality can be unbalanced and result in suppressed emotions and sexual dysfunction. This is what I am talking about.
I don't agree that just because someone seems open and clear in the upper chakras that this means the lower one automatically get cleared. This has not been my personal experience and it is not the experience of many people in the healing field, who often come into this field because of their association with the divine light but are often quite ungrounded and have a lot of emotional problems.
I'm not saying this applies to everyone but it does leave the possibility of ungroundedness.
I agree it would be an interesting avenue to explore with AYP once a certain level of purification has been achieved. At what stage this would be I am not sure.
On the other hand,my feeling on it would be that as we come more and more into the present moment of just simply "being" that all those levels and chakras above the normal seven are also being cleared.
In the audio version of the second meditation on the "resource section" on that website, it talked about eventually reaching the level of awareness of being "one with all" ( or words to that effect). This is the same awareness proposed in AYP, in Buddhism and other practices. The difference, as I see it, is that AYP and Buddhism experience this fully in the body, grounded fully in relationship with the people and things around them.
Louis
I would agree with all this. I think I was simply trying to say that a meditation on the inner light and inner sound, doesn't need to be an out of the body" meditation, but I agree, it certainly does seem to have the potential for being an upper body only meditation.
Hi Meg,
quote:
My experience has been an opening of the chakras starting with the heart and moving upward. It wasn't until after a significant opening at ajna that I experienced any energy in my lower chakras, namely, the 2nd chakra. As that opens, then the activity in the upper chakras increases dramatically.
This was the sequence of the opening of my chakras too! I don't think this is entirely coincidence. Yogani mentions that there is often a heart opening first (bakhti). Then if the ajna opens, it is likely to cause a second chakra opening, as there is a link between these two. If your 3rd chakra is less active, then it is likely that your throad chakra is less active also, as these are related. This is my situation. My root chakra didn't start to open until my crown did (1-7 connection).
quote:
Also, during meditation (2.5 hrs. a day is recommended) sensory deprivation is encouraged, thereby allowing the practitioner to turn inward to the inner landscape and experience the lights/sights/sounds there. My alarm went off here, as it would seem that experiences are given considerable emphasis, and we all know where that leads.
I wonder.....
The light being referred to is one that comes from heaven. The sound too, is the sound that underlies all of creation. They are kind of things from God. So I just don't know if they count as scenery on the way, like other distractions? Or if, by focussing our attention on them we can return to our source "through them" so to speak.
I know it's not AYP, but I have started the experiment....
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Jan 21 2007 02:10:52 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2007 : 08:54:04 AM
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OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks so much for that link, emc! That makes all the difference in the world! I've struggled with the whole siddhasana/mulabandha/where-the-hell's-my-perineum thing for so long that I just gave up and have been Kegeling my way through siddhasana for the past few yrs. Can't wait to see what opens up with this new method.
In that thread, Sadhak wrote: "By the way, interesting that even in the yoga teachings, it is MAN's anatomy that has been referred to. Woman's anatomy is "forgotten" and not mentioned. Man seems to be the norm in this area as well."
Yeah, I've noticed that too in a lot of the older writings, and to our postmodern sensibilities, it is offputting indeed. I so appreciate the writings of Yogani and other contemporary male writers, who include the female anatomy in their writings.
The yoni is in you...
Christi - thanks for that imput about the crown-root connection. I avoid the crown b'c of a couple of scary experiences, but maybe once it starts to open I'll get more 1st chakra activity. Also, I want to add that when we (or "they"; the San Rajinderites) say that the Light is that which comes from heaven or from God, it's the same as referring to the Light within. At least according to the follower whom I've been talking with. They believe that by following this Light, they will eventually come to God/Self-realization. For them, the scenery is an essential part of the journey; for us (AYP) it is a pleasant distraction, but not the primary vehicle. I think it's a mistake to focus too much on experiences, as they're not a dependable form of transportation, so to speak.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2007 : 1:15:49 PM
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Good, I thought you'd like that link. 
(And actually, I think I am guilty of that sentence, not Sadhak...) |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2007 : 08:58:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
I'm curious if anyone knows about Sant Rajinder Sing Ji Maharaj and the Science of Spirituality. Is anyone familiar with him, and if so, what do you think of his teachings?
www.sos.org/webpage/santmat/srs.html
Meg:
I am familiar with Sant Rajinder Sing Ji Maharaj and the Science of Spirituality.
In the summer of '99 my wife and I moved to a new residence and as we were getting to know our neighbors, I learned that a single woman across the street was meditating twice daily, and aiming to do so for extended periods. She had been on the on the Sant Mat path for around 40 years, was a follower of Rajinder Sing, and before him, Kirpal Singh with whom she was initiated as a youth. I had not heard of that tradition, but I was interested in dialogue. Like her, I was aiming to meditate twice daily and was doing so for periods of one hour. My tradition was the Christian mystical tradition. I got the idea for twice daily one hour periods of recollection from, Francisco de Osuna, and his book Third Spiritual Alphabet (Spain, 1525).
My neighbor and I decided to start a once a week meditation group that meet at her house Wednesday evenings. We met for two hours with an hour in meditative silence. That went on weekly until last summer when she joined a folk dance group that met Wednesdays and found a male partner who moved in with her. That is about six years meditating together. The group varied in composition, but the constants were that we always met at her house and I was always there unless I gave notice that I had other plans. I rarely had other plans.
During those six years, I read books in her tradition including The Crown of Life: A study in yoga by Kirpal Singh; I visited their retreat center near the town of Bowling Green, Virginia; saw Rajinder giving an introductory talk on meditation and doing a book signing in DC; visited Baltimore branch the local Science of Spirituality, a weekly meditation group; got to know some of her long-time friends in the group; heard numerous spiritual autobiographical stories from her and her friends on the path; became close friends with a friend of hers that was on another Sant Mat path (having been initiated by Charan Singh) and who was able to give a comparison/ contrast perspective within the larger tradition; watched and discussed with others in the group, the video, Experiencing the Soul
http://www.fawwcf.org/expsoulvideo.html; and did so in the context of generally trying to be a kind, responsible neighbor and friend. I did not join her tradition; but we had, and still have, a deep dialogue.
As for what I think of the teachings of Rajinder Singh and Sant Mat: I don't disagree with anything that has been expressed above in the discussion thus far, whether it be the cautions of Lewis or the interest of Christi. Meg, I think being in dialogue with someone in Sant Mat is a healthy thing. Rajinder strikes me as a kind and ethical meditation teacher. If any of you have further specific questions, I'd be glad to reply.
B. |
Edited by - bewell on Jan 22 2007 09:03:39 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2007 : 09:51:15 AM
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| Thanks for your thoughtful reply, bewell. My only question at this point is whether your neighbor was obsessed with spiritual 'gifts' or siddhis. That's strong language; to rephrase, was there much talk or emphasis on receiving spiritual powers or gifts? That was the only major difference that I recall between ayp and Sant Mat. Not an unworkable difference, but it shifts the emphasis considerably. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2007 : 11:29:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
...was there much talk or emphasis on receiving spiritual powers or gifts?
"Siddhis" didn't come up as a topic of discussion. The "gifts" cultivated, in that tradition, are mainly those useful in worship. My neighbor writes devotional poetry, and creates colorful visual arts and crafts. Kirpal Singh was a poet, comparable, some say, to Rumi.
Poem by Kabir
Are you looking for me? I am in the next seat.
My shoulder is against yours.
you will not find me in the stupas, not in Indian shrine
rooms, nor in synagogues, nor in cathedrals:
not in masses, nor kirtans, not in legs winding
around your own neck, nor in eating nothing but
vegetables.
When you really look for me, you will see me
instantly —
you will find me in the tiniest house of time.
Kabir says: Student, tell me, what is God?
He is the breath inside the breath.
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Edited by - bewell on Jan 22 2007 11:33:57 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2007 : 05:54:17 AM
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Hi Bewell,
Here's the two most obvious questions:
1. Were/ are anyone you met practicing in this tradition experiencing problems with energy overload?
2. Were /are any of these people experiencing problems with ungroundedness?
I realise totally that it may be difficult for you to answer these questions, because if a tradition has a taboo on discussing meditation experiences with anyone other than the Guru, then how can you know the answer to these questions. Unless someone has reached the point where they are lying on their back, shaking, unable to walk (as has happened to me) then it is hard to spot symptoms, unless someone tells you what is happening to them. Likewise, with lack of groundedness, unless someone is staring off into space, unable to answer any question you put to them, it isn't always obvious. This is one of the problems with traditions which have such a taboo. Noone knows what problems anyone else is experiencing, until they leave the tradition, and bump into another ex member, and go "so that happened to you too?".
But, as you offered, I thought I 'd ask the questions anyway.
Christi. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2007 : 10:21:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
1. Were/ are anyone you met practicing in this tradition experiencing problems with energy overload?
2. Were /are any of these people experiencing problems with ungroundedness?
Interesting questions, Christi,
In making judgments about others, there is always the questions of, "Relative to who?" and "Relative to what?" That's why I particularly like what you shared about your own experience:
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
...Unless someone has reached the point where they are lying on their back, shaking, unable to walk (as has happened to me) then it is hard to spot symptoms...
I have done some lying on my back shaking spontaneously, and I'm thankful for having gone through it. During one summer, I took off work and let my inner energy move my body for hours a day. Some might call that energy overload, but since I enjoyed surfing the big waves, I'd call it terrific -- better than a trip to some ocean resort. I shared about my experience with my neighbor, and with her friend (the one initiated by Charan Singh), I let her witness my spontaneous movement yoga. Both said that they had not known anyone in their circles who had experienced that much energy. Aside, perhaps from Kirpal Singh. Upon telling my story to my neighbor, she said that Kirpal, as a young man with awakened kundlaini energy, had such heat surge in his body that he ran outside and jumped in a cold river to try to balance. (Odd analogy, because I personally never had excessive heat). My neighbors friend honored my inner energy experiences, wished she could feel inner energy, and practiced Yogi Bajan's Kundalini yoga to get if flowing, but still could not feel it.
As for ungroundedness. Again, relative to me, they all seem fairly grounded in terms of capacity for practical things in life. (come to think of it though, there is the story of the carpenter who starts projects but does not finish them anywhere near "on time." Does fine work though!). I would say, that many in the group who go visit their guru often may be socially dislocated and more than average unmarried and childless. But there are many counter examples, I'm sure.
An ultimate experience they seek is an ascent of the soul to union with the divine One (an experience beyond experience). In the experiencing the soul video, there was a man who said he could detach from the senses and from thought at will during daily meditation. I'm not sure if he meant he could go into a state of such intense ecstasy that he really could not feel his senses of think thoughts, but that is what he seemed to want to suggest with the language he chose.
But further reports of such capacities are rare. No sharing scenery rule aside, my neighbor shared with me a book of testimonials of extraordinary experiences. I don't remember the title of the book, and oddly, I also, at the moment, don't remember any of the testimonials. Oh yes, some are coming back now. They often had to do with feeling connected to the "Master" at a distance. I have felt some of that too, but since his is not my chosen Master, I found it a connection I preferred not to cultivate.
As I was saying, I'm the king of the ungrounded, I've once had an "ascent of the soul to One" experience (not at will). I'm thinking they are pretty grounded. Maybe that is why I fit in fairly well among them for a time.
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Edited by - bewell on Jan 23 2007 10:46:41 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2007 : 12:43:04 PM
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Hi Bewell,
Thanks for the reply.
quote:
In making judgments about others, there is always the questions of, "Relative to who?" and "Relative to what?"
I don't feel that we are really judging anyone here. For me this is more about looking at particular spiritual practices, and seeing how well they work and what the potential problems may be. It is not really about people, as some people do many practices (like myself).
I guess that it would actually be hard to answer the questions that I asked without having access to a large sample of people who have done these practices for some time and who are willing to share their experiences about it. That doesn't look like it is coming our way anytime soon, as all the traditions that practice these meditation techniques seem to have the same "do not share experiences" rule.
quote:
I would say, that many in the group who go visit their guru often may be socially dislocated and more than average unmarried and childless.
I don't know if this means much, as it could well follow for the followers of any spiritual tradition. Many people are going to be so interested in the Divine that they would give up ideas about marriage and children, and the same could go for social dislocation. It is hard to fit into an essentially materialistic society when all your senses are craving for God .
quote:
In the experiencing the soul video, there was a man who said he could detach from the senses and from thought at will during daily meditation. I'm not sure if he meant he could go into a state of such intense ecstasy that he really could not feel his senses of think thoughts, but that is what he seemed to want to suggest with the language he chose.
I can detach from the senses and from thought at will during daily meditation. It is really no big deal. It happens once our samadhi develops to a certain point, which is not a particularily advanced stage of samadhi. For me it can happen with or without ecstacy. Ecstacy could be intense, and that could carry us beyond the sense-mind, or it can just come, due to the settling of the mind during meditation, without any ecstacy. Once in that state however, for me, ecstacy will always be there to some degree, as bliss is.
Christi |
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Sant Rajinder Sing Ji Maharaj
