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Jonathas
8 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 31 2023 : 12:45:09 AM
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Hello,
I have been practicing the AYP methods for a little while, a couple of years with varying degrees of stability.
I am now at a point where there is some ecstatic conductivity going on and practice has been, thankfully, steadier than ever before.
I have been feeling called to do Kechari. Right now I reach the soft palate and can push my tongue aaaalmost to behind it. But since staying in stage 1 kechari is so uncomfortable, and since I really want to go beyond that, I would like to do something about my frenum.
I considered snipping it, but chickened out and felt bad about going at it that way. I would much rather stretch it in any way I can (I have started already...).
I learned about Talabya a few days ago and find it interesting and so I have been doing that.
I know that Yogani apparently wrote a lesson on Talabya vs Snipping in the AYP Plus lessons, but I cant acess it, so I would like to know if anyone has anything to tell me about it!
What can you guys tell me about the differences between performing the snipping vs talabya kriya? Are there positives or negatives to either? Is there any reason to avoid talabya? Does anyone know of any other techniques that dont involve snipping? Do you guys have any general advice to offer? I am all ears!
Thanks in advance. I am very grateful for AYP. |
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2024 : 06:28:58 AM
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Welcome Johnathas 
Yogani speaks at length about ketchari 2 in this lesson: https://www.aypsite.com/108.html
Here are a few excerpts:
quote:
Stage 2 is very dramatic. The tongue is pushed back with a finger to the left or right side of the soft palate. These are the shortest pathways leading behind the soft palate. One of these will be shorter than the other. At some point you will experiment and see for yourself. The long way in is up the middle. The soft palate has an elastic tendon running across the back edge. When the tip of the tongue gets behind it for the first time, the elastic tendon can slip quickly around the bottom of the tongue as though grabbing it. Then the tongue is suddenly in the nasal pharynx and touching the edge of the nasal septum for the first time.
His stance on snipping the frenulum:
quote:
Some will have medical concerns about snipping the frenum. Most doctors will not be for it. Is there risk? There is always some risk when we undertake new things. That is life. The practice of trimming the frenum for kechari has been around for thousands of years - at least as long as circumcision, body piercing and tattooing. Not that any of these other types of body alterations are in the same class as kechari. They are not. Kechari is one of the most advanced yoga practices on the planet. When we know we are ready for it, we will be willing to accept whatever risk may be associated with entering it. We each choose our own path according to the feelings rising in our heart.
I had my uvula removed during a septum surgery more than twenty years ago, and now believe it is why I was successful with ketchari 2 in mere months without the need to snip. Personally I would attempt and exhaust all "digital" and tongue milking practices first before resorting to snipping, but as Yogani points out we must lean into our individual Bhaktis for guidance. I have not heard of talabya, and don't have to desire to research it; perhaps another yogi can weigh in on that for you. Good luck! |
Edited by - Dogboy on Jan 01 2024 06:30:13 AM |
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Jonathas
8 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2024 : 5:15:44 PM
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Thank you Dogboy for the response and for the welcoming!
I have read Yogani's lesson on Kechari, I am hoping for something more related to Talabya since I could not read his thoughts regarding that 
It is good to know you did not need to snip your frenum. I will keep stretching it and see how it goes, I am in no rush either way, if the only way forward ends up being snipping I will go for it as well... All in good time, yes?
I still hope someone can say something about Talabya though! I am curious why Yogani has not reccomended it or mentioned it in the main lesson, maybe it is innefective in his view? I have no idea. It is such a simple practice, it seems.
I am doing it for now and I will continue, but I would like to know if others think it is a waste of time, for example. I wont do it indefinitely, afterall...
Thanks for anyone who could see this and replies! |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
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TensorTympani
Sweden
100 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2024 : 4:03:20 PM
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Here is my frenum stretch story. Maybe it helps!
I managed to get into kechari stage 2 without snipping, doing only a modified talabya. Normal talabya (as least this is how I understood it) has two components that are repeated in a quick motion.
1) Start from a tongue and jaw posture like this
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-14GH7NxNYg/...sdefault.jpg
where you open your mouth while having "sucked" the tongue to the roof of your mouth, with the rim of the tongue touching the teeth.
2) Then you release the tongue in a stretching motion forward.
Repeat steps 1 and 2 in quick succession many times.
I never understood the purpose of releasing the tongue very quickly from step 1. If you want to stretch the tendons in your legs you lean into the stretch for a while. You don't release the stretch after a second. So I simply left my jaw and tongue in the position 1 for several minutes while additionally pressing a finger against the frenum, thereby stretching it even more. I did this maybe 2-3 minutes a day for 2 months after which I could enter stage 2 with the help of a finger.
But at this stage the frenum was not stretched enough to remain there comfortably: the frenum gets stretched while in kechari 2 and presses uncomfortably against the uvula and soft upper pallet if it still quite short. So at this point I decided to finally make tiny snips to relax the tension of the frenum even more so that meditation will be possible. I made the snips in front of the mirror holding position 1, like in that photo, clearly exposing the frenum while making the snip. The snips where so tiny that not more than a single drop of blood was visible and it healed within a few days. During that time I continued my stretching method, which I think helped even more: freshly after the snip the frenum is weakened and so the stretching might have been even more effective. I'm not sure about that though. I only did this a few times.
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Jonathas
8 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2024 : 06:01:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...erms=talabya
Sey 
Oh wow Sey, this really threw me for a spin now... Lol!
I did wonder about the teeth grinding the frenum while doing Talabya because I could feel it, but that was definitely not the focus of my practice...
Thank you for the response and for pointing me to Yogani's reply. This will help me tremendously and apparently save me from some wasted effort (at the very least, I can make the practice more effective if it's true!). |
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Jonathas
8 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2024 : 06:33:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by TensorTympani
Here is my frenum stretch story. Maybe it helps!
I managed to get into kechari stage 2 without snipping, doing only a modified talabya. Normal talabya (as least this is how I understood it) has two components that are repeated in a quick motion.
1) Start from a tongue and jaw posture like this
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-14GH7NxNYg/...sdefault.jpg
where you open your mouth while having "sucked" the tongue to the roof of your mouth, with the rim of the tongue touching the teeth.
2) Then you release the tongue in a stretching motion forward.
Repeat steps 1 and 2 in quick succession many times.
I never understood the purpose of releasing the tongue very quickly from step 1. If you want to stretch the tendons in your legs you lean into the stretch for a while. You don't release the stretch after a second. So I simply left my jaw and tongue in the position 1 for several minutes while additionally pressing a finger against the frenum, thereby stretching it even more. I did this maybe 2-3 minutes a day for 2 months after which I could enter stage 2 with the help of a finger.
But at this stage the frenum was not stretched enough to remain there comfortably: the frenum gets stretched while in kechari 2 and presses uncomfortably against the uvula and soft upper pallet if it still quite short. So at this point I decided to finally make tiny snips to relax the tension of the frenum even more so that meditation will be possible. I made the snips in front of the mirror holding position 1, like in that photo, clearly exposing the frenum while making the snip. The snips where so tiny that not more than a single drop of blood was visible and it healed within a few days. During that time I continued my stretching method, which I think helped even more: freshly after the snip the frenum is weakened and so the stretching might have been even more effective. I'm not sure about that though. I only did this a few times.
"I never understood the purpose of releasing the tongue very quickly from step 1"
Considering what I read in the previous post by Yogani, this would now make sense... doing it repeatedly and the focus more so in grinding the frenum against the teeth with the extension and then stretching...
I was focusing on the stretch as well and basically would only extend the tongue once after many stretches...
I think I might try your stretching with the fingers and see if it helps. I want to keep with Talabya for a while, and then if I still need to snip eventually like you also did, so be it...
Thank you for the response |
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TensorTympani
Sweden
100 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2024 : 12:04:50 PM
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Hi Jonathas, I didn't intend on ever snipping originally. It was just impatience that took over: having had the tongue finally in stage 2 but guessing it might take another weeks or months for it to be comfortable there, I changed my plan. Of course, Yogani's casual way of talking about the process of snipping and the many people following here without any problems also contributed in making that decision.
In fact, the first snip produced an immediate release of the frenum's pressure against the uvula and upper palate in stage 2. So it was then a no-brainer to make some more snips in the coming weeks after the first one had such an immediate effect and was nearly painless and healed very quickly.
Your attitude of going as far as possible with stretching resonates with me. Safety, patience and not forcing the body. But in the end the a single snip is such tiny thing that it doesn't really matter. And if really the grinding of the tongue along on the lower teeth in this step of 2 talabya is supposed to do the job of ripping the frenum, then talabya sounds more violent than a handful of precise snips.
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Gabereal
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2024 : 11:12:57 PM
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| I took a razor blade and sliced my ferenulum a good inch in depth. It was painful. I wouldn?t recommend loll. After it healed I had kechari in a couple weeks |
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Jonathas
8 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2024 : 11:22:01 PM
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Well, I want to update this for future reference of anyone...
The answers of everyone helped me immensely. I ended up snipping eventually, but with no rush. When I felt ready to do it, it was exactly like Yogani mentioned somewhere: The process of stretching the frenum (which happened as I kept just trying to reach kechari 2 over and over again and a bit of talabya for a while) ended up creating a sort of "callus" (or less sensitive skin) that made it easy and painless to snip just a bit. 0 pain, 0 drama. But keep in mind that it was a small cut, very small.
In some of my next attempts I did cut a bit too much for my taste, a bit of bleeding happened and kept going for a while. But again, that was mostly me being greedy, to be honest. And that still was not awful, the following day or the next and I was like new again. With proper caution I now believe it is very hard to have any sort of very bad mishap, loll.
So, the bottomline of all this for me is: Yogani is right, whenever you feel ready you will do it. Whenever you feel the need, you will do it. No need to force anything!
Now I am mostly still stretching naturally through staying on kechari and then I might snip whenever it "feels right" (... or when I can no longer hold back anymore and want to reach higher and higher, lol!  )
Thank you for all of you, one more time. |
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2024 : 03:04:07 AM
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| You can congratulate your inner guru |
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Talabya vs Snipping
