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Mats
Germany
43 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 03 2023 : 10:47:51 PM
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Hi,
I am dealing with oversensitivity to spinal breathing pranayama and deep meditation. My daily practice is a few minutes of spinal breathing, about 15 minutes meditation, 5 minutes rest. Wouldn't it be a better choice to switch to more gentler spiritual practices (zen, vipassana, ...) where a broader regimen of the practices can be used? I feel that while being stuck a the lower part of the bell curve, it would be wise to switch to practices that (perhaps) are more suitable for oversensitive practitioners. And (for them) better suited to make progress. |
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Dogboy
USA
2201 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2023 : 04:39:15 AM
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Welcome Mats 
Sorry to hear you are having sensitivity issues. Yogani has a lesson describing your predicament that may be of interest: https://www.aypsite.org/367.html
My suggestion would be to reduce DM to ten minutes and see if that helps. Also, it might help to rest with your third eye touching the ground in rest (not an AYP practice, but when I do it, it feels as super grounding) and do other grounding activities after practice (walk outside, eating, interacting with others, yard work, etc). The trick is to find the balance between inward attention and outward attention that works for your system. This could be a phase you are in, or you were just born sensitive and have to manage it with self pacing.
Good luck! |
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Mats
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2023 : 10:25:55 PM
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Thanks Dogboy for your advice!
I feel that 15 to 20 minutes of spiritual practices twice daily are not enough, even though I run into overload issues otherwise. It might be my bhakti speaking, it is just a feeling. But wouldn't it be wise for oversensitive practitioners do choose a more gentle way, e.g. zen? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2023 : 10:43:46 PM
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Hi Mats,
Zen meditation is one of the options available for AYP practitioners who are very sensitive to the mantra. In AYP it is referred to as the Passive Awareness Technique. It is discussed here:
Addition 367.4 - Passive Awareness Technique for Very Sensitive Meditators
The Passive Awareness Technique is only suitable for people who have abiding inner silence present. Otherwise it can simply turn into a process of mind creating more mind. Practitioners who are oversensitive to the mantra who do not have abiding inner silence present already, are recommended to use Breathing Meditation, until their sensitivity has passed and they can come back to using the mantra again. See here on that:
On Breathing Meditation and self-pacing
Christi |
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Mats
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2023 : 11:12:53 AM
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Hi Christi,
thanks, unfortunately, I do not have access to the site you linked. I did not know that zen is part of AYP, it is not mentioned in the regular lessons. Why is it not called zen, is there a difference to passive awareness?
How do I know when to change practices? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2023 : 1:27:43 PM
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Hi Mats,
The free online AYP lessons contain a lot of information about the AYP practices. But, they do not contain everything. Some of the teachings are on the AYP Plus site, which is a subscription website. Keeping AYP running smoothly costs money, requiring part time administrators and tech support, which is why the subscription site exists. Without a source of income, AYP would not last very long.
In lesson 367 there is advice given for switching to Breathing Meditation if you are especially sensitive to the mantra. The advice on switching to the Passive Awareness Technique is on the AYP Plus site. It is an optional extra practice for advanced practitioners.
The practice you are describing goes by many names. In Buddhism it is referred to as Zazen, but many people simply call it "Zen Meditation". It is also sometimes referred to as "Just Sitting", or "Taking the One Seat". In AYP it is called the "Passive Awareness Technique". Many names, one practice.
Zen is actually a school of Mahayana Buddhism, that sub-divided into many smaller schools. The tradition has a number of practices, including insight inquiry practices using koans. Zazen is just one of the Zen meditation practices. So, calling something "Zen" could be confusing.
Christi |
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Mats
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2023 : 2:31:37 PM
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Hi Christi,
I see. In https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...rchTerms=zen Yogani writes:
"Bottom line: AYP deep meditation and Zen meditation are not the same, and someone with an established deep meditation background is going to go deep in a Zen-style sitting (zazen or vipassana), even without consciously using the mantra. With deep meditation, we gradually develop the habit of going deep simply by closing our eyes. Do that 4-5 times in long sittings on the first day of a Zen retreat, with lots of group satsang added, plus someone like Adyashanti around, and what have you got? Overload!"
By this I was thinking zazen and AYP are not compatible, but after reading your answer, I think they are. So zen is indeed a form or technique/practice of AYP, it is just a matter of quantity. For oversensitive people, it can serve as a gentler AYP-practice.
Could you give me an answer to this question above?
quote:
How do I know when to change practices?
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2023 : 01:14:56 AM
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Hi Mats,
Yes, Zazen and AYP are compatible, and Zazen, under the name the Passive Awareness Technique, is an AYP practice. And yes, in AYP we do not do long meditation sittings as is often done in some Buddhist traditions. 20 minutes is the recommended amount for meditation sessions in AYP, going up to a maximum of 25 minutes, or 30 minutes, for advanced level practitioners. This is twice each day. This is shown on the AYP practice chart here.
There is something called "retreat mode" in AYP, where someone can increase the number of sessions they practice each day. Someone in retreat mode could go up to four sessions a day, or even 5 or 6 sessions a day for very advanced practitioners. But even that would mean a maximum of 3 hours of meditation a day for advanced practitioners. This is something that would be built up to gradually, over many years.
In terms of how you know when to change practices, this would be the method.
1. If you are experiencing energetic overload, then you would begin by self-pacing your practices and adding grounding practices to your daily schedule. This is discussed here. The first practices to cut back on would be any aggressive practices that are being used, such as advanced pranayamas, or mudras and bandhas. Also, using a meditation seat other than siddhasana would be advised. Things like walking and swimming are the most effective grounding practices.
2. If you are still experiencing energetic overload after completing step one, then you could cut back on your practice timings, for example cutting down to 5 mins Spinal Breathing Pranayama and 15 mins of Deep Meditation. If this does not help, you could step back further to say 2 mins of SBP and 10 mins of Deep Meditation.
3. If you are still experiencing energetic overload, and have cut out any aggressive practices, and have cut back on the timings of your practices, and have added grounding practices, then you could step back from any mantra enhancements you are using. For example if you are using the full mantra, then you could step back to the second enhancement, or first enhancement. If this does not help, you could step back to using just AYAM.
4. If you are still experiencing energetic overload after taking all those steps, then you could switch to using Alternate Nostril Breathing instead of Spinal Breathing Pranayama. This is discussed here. Alternate Nostril Breathing is more gentle that Spinal Breathing.
5. If you are still experiencing energetic overload after completing all the steps above, then you could consider switching temporarily to either Breathing Meditation, or the Passive Awareness Technique. As I mentioned above, the Passive Awareness Technique is only suitable for people with abiding inner silence present, but the breath can be used by anyone. If you are not sure, then go with the breath. If you change your meditation object, then you should stick with the new one for at least 6-months. This is because it takes time to settle in with a new meditation object. Once the 6-month period has passed and if you feel stable and ready, you can come back to using the mantra again.
Stepping back up after overload passes should be done gradually, and in small steps. My advice would be to remain stable for at least a few weeks, before thinking about stepping practices back up again. I would suggest continuing with daily grounding practices for several weeks after the last symptoms of energetic overload have disappeared. This is because of the flywheel effect.
Christi |
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Mats
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2023 : 10:24:27 AM
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Christi, thank you for this detailed answer.
If you are cutting back the mantra enhancements AFTER cutting back practice timings, does this apply the other way around as well? Meaning that when the overload period has vanished, you FIRST change from nostril breathing to spinal breathing again, THEN introduce mantra enhancements and THEN increase practice timings again? The mantra enhancements are covered pretty late in the lessons, so they are introduced after all the other practices, aren't they?
The five steps you described for when to change practices seem pretty complete, covering many possible cases. However, do you see circumstances where it could make sense for someone to leave AYP entirely and change to another spiritual path?
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2023 : 10:38:37 AM
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Hi Mats,
Changing from one mantra enhancement to another one is a big step, as it takes time to settle in with a new mantra. So, that is why I would recommend cutting back on practice timings first, as that is a more simple step. And yes, in general, when stepping back up once you are stable again, it would be done in the reverse order. I say in general, because if someone switched to using the breath as a meditation object, or the Passive Awareness Technique, then they would stay with that for at least 6-months. So, it would be the other steps that would be done in reverse order.
I can't think of a situation where someone would need to stop AYP entirely and switch to a different spiritual path? Self-pacing in AYP goes right down to whatever level a practitioner needs to be at, at that stage of their awakening process. And then has the options there to come back up again to a fuller practice when the time is right. That is what is needed, as people go through the purification process.
Christi |
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Mats
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2023 : 11:19:43 AM
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So when building up practices, when would you introduce the first and second mantra enhancement (for an oversensitive person)? Right after spinal breathing and deep meditation, before mulabandha, sambbhavi and siddhasana? I am asking because these three are still too much for me, energetically speaking. I never really thought about introducing mantra enhancement at all since they are covered so lately.
quote:
I can't think of a situation where someone would need to stop AYP entirely and switch to a different spiritual path? Self-pacing in AYP goes right down to whatever level a practitioner needs to be at, at that stage of their awakening process. And then has the options there to come back up again to a fuller practice when the time is right. That is what is needed, as people go through the purification process.
Does this still count when no progress can be seen in any way for months and years? On that scale, life is pretty short. Doesn't the time come when you should call it a day and try something different? Is the recommendation to just practice for decades even though nothing changes? |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2023 : 2:32:31 PM
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Hi Mats,
Yes, you may consider adding mudras and bandhas before you consider mantra enhancements. Mudras and bandhas are the equivalent of switching the gear on your car to increase speed. You want to get pretty comfortable with the mantra AYAM and basic mudras and bandhas before you move to a longer mantra with enhancements. It is the same way you want to be able to drive a regular car before you move to a race car.
Keep in mind that meditation is the main practice – you can make the entire spiritual journey using the mantra AYAM. The rest of the practices may increase the speed, the comfort, prepare the body-mind, sustain the meditation practice. Thus, mudras and bandhas are not fundamental practices - one does not get to enlightenment just by practicing siddhasana, for example. However, as the subtle body purify, mudras and bandhas naturally start to occur during meditation. We could wait for these elements to appear spontaneously, or we can take a more active approach and learn them consciously.
The fact that apparently no big changes happen does not mean that there is no progress. It is a bit like hatching an egg. For weeks and weeks, the egg looks about the same, until one day it cracks, and a chick comes out of the shell.
As you practice and pay attention, your inner perceptions refine, and you start to notice small shifts and changes. They prepare the way to fundamental shifts in identity and world view. In the meantime, you may notice more peace, calm, a healing quality of the mantra, a decrease in mental chatter, and a better quality of life.
Keeping a journal may help clarify where you are in your practice and gain insights in what works for you. 
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Mats
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2023 : 1:45:45 PM
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Hi,
quote:
The fact that apparently no big changes happen does not mean that there is no progress. It is a bit like hatching an egg. For weeks and weeks, the egg looks about the same, until one day it cracks, and a chick comes out of the shell.
It is indeed easier said than done. On the one hand, it is not for weeks and weeks but for months and years. And on the other hand, there are so many spiritual paths available these days that it is tempting to just hop around and try this and that. However, deep down I know this is not the way.
I have another question concerning the topic of oversensitivity: Generally, AYP recommends restraint in sexual conduct or loss of semen. Does this also count for oversensitive persons? I ask because: Oversensitive persons cut back on (mainly) energetic practices since they are too sensitive. As sexual conduct can be seen as a loss of this (in oversensitive persons easily overflowing) energy, is it less detrimental for oversensitive persons? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2023 : 2:30:12 PM
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Hi Mats,
You seem to be implying that you have practiced for many years without noticing any changes, and at the same time, that you have so much purification happening that you cannot add mudras and bandhas to your practice? It can't be both. Either you have a lot of purification happening, or nothing is happening. Maybe you are hoping for certain experiences, and are not experiencing those things? That is not uncommon. Unfortunately, with spiritual practice, the purification work has to come first, before the fruits of the practice come. And the purification process can take many years, depending on the individual.
With sexual practices, everyone has to find their own balance. If someone is sensitive to spiritual practices, then celibacy, or tanrtik sexual practices may be overstimulating. For others, regular sexual practices may lead to too much loss of prana. So, it is a question of listening to your body.
Christi |
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Mats
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2023 : 7:51:50 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
You seem to be implying that you have practiced for many years without noticing any changes, and at the same time, that you have so much purification happening that you cannot add mudras and bandhas to your practice? It can't be both. Either you have a lot of purification happening, or nothing is happening.
That is a good point, thank you for that perspective.
quote:
With sexual practices, everyone has to find their own balance. If someone is sensitive to spiritual practices, then celibacy, or tanrtik sexual practices may be overstimulating. For others, regular sexual practices may lead to too much loss of prana. So, it is a question of listening to your body.
I cannot really say how to listen to the body here. How do I know? Does too much restraint (a few weeks of celibacy) lead to overload symptoms, jumpiness for example? On the other side, what is a sign of too much loss of prana? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2023 : 8:45:02 PM
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Hi Mats,
Refraining from sexual release (orgasm/ ejaculation) is a spiritual practice and so can lead to overload symptoms if practiced too much, for too long. Symptoms couls range widely from jumpiness, irritability, heat in the body, pressure in the head, etc. On the other side, too much release of sexual energy and fluids can lead to tiredness, weakness and fatigue. This is the reason football players are often not allowed to see their girlfriends in the three days before a big match. So, if you notice yourself becoming irritable, or jumpy, or weak and tired, then your sexual practices, or lack of sexual practices, could be out of balance.
If you read through the Tantra lessons on this website, all of this is explained. Even if you don't use Tantrik sexual practices, it is useful to read through the lessons anyway, as they are relevant to everyone.
Christi |
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Mats
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2023 : 9:45:37 PM
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| Thank you! |
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Wil
Sweden
150 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2023 : 03:41:58 AM
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Hi Mats,
Nice reading your posts!
Im on the 10 minute Deep meditation train. I do not know if I will be less sensitive soon but I have more control now compared to before... I know from the moon phases down to the types of foods, how it effects me. *sigh*
If you read the more consise posts of mine you will see I too struggle with Bhakti and wanting more but needing less.
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Oversensitivity
