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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 31 2018 : 08:39:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Herb
The soul is the Self. Truth is truth, and Hinduism and Christianity meet beautifully on this subject. Following are two teachings, one from the Bible and mainstream Christianity(Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox), the other from a Hindu Sage:
“At the moment of death, the soul returns to God, Who gave it to us.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 This means that the soul(Self) has existed from eternity and is undying. It lives on after our physical body has perished, for eternity. Forget the notion that each of us has an individual soul. This false concept only comes from unenlightened Christians and Hindus. There is only one soul and it is one with everything, both visible and invisible, “of all that is, seen and unseen.”*
*from the Nicene Creed
“On stilling all thoughts, the pure Consciousness remains. This is the Self, this is happiness and bliss. It was ever present before you were born and will exist for all eternity. Realize this and you will have eternal life.”
Ramana Maharshi
Now, all that being said, Atman is Brahman. We may realize the Self by looking within, but at the moment of Self-realization, we realize that our soul is one with everything and that we are the Self. This back and forth use of the words “soul” and “Self” is only confusing until you realize the oneness of these two terms. Christianity and Hinduism both believe in the reality of oneness, that God or Consciousness is all that really exists, from the highest most enlightened stand-point. All their other teachings are only relative truths designed to help your finite human mind grasp the uncomprehensible infiniteness of God.
“People insist on asking me questions and so I must reply. But truth(God) is beyond words.”
Ramana
 
Very interesting stuff Herb.
If you don't mind, I would like to comment a little bit.
quote:
“At the moment of death, the soul returns to God, Who gave it to us.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 This means that the soul(Self) has existed from eternity and is undying. It lives on after our physical body has perished, for eternity. Forget the notion that each of us has an individual soul.
The quote is one sentence from the Old Testament talking about being of good Morals.
Jesus taught something very different that what I bolded above. What you are describing is dualistic and much different than realizing heaven.
quote:
3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
On to the next part.
quote:
This false concept only comes from unenlightened Christians and Hindus. There is only one soul and it is one with everything, both visible and invisible, “of all that is, seen and unseen.”*
*from the Nicene Creed
The One Soul is an AV view and not shared by all Hindus. One is not unenlightened because of disagreeing with AV.
When one has realized Heaven they are one with all things, but that does not mean there is just Brahma. Like Kashmir Shaivism mentions, we are each One Like Siva.
quote:
“of all that is, seen and unseen.”*
*from the Nicene Creed
Is interesting as it is the Nicene Creed that directly goes against Jesus's teachings. It is the Creed that tells everyone to believe in the dualistic nature of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. Jesus never taught any such thing.
Also, “of all that is, seen and unseen.”* is what we realize as our true nature.
quote:
“On stilling all thoughts, the pure Consciousness remains. This is the Self, this is happiness and bliss. It was ever present before you were born and will exist for all eternity. Realize this and you will have eternal life.”
Ramana Maharshi
Again this is an AV view and actually easily refuted.
If all there is, is the void, silence, stillness. If it is that motionless silence of the void that is the Self, that is the goal. What is it that creates all this? Is that also not a part of you?
Maybe the words of Jesus would help.
50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'
Fun stuff, thank you Herb for the conversation. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2018 : 09:04:49 AM
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“Let no one deceive you! God is light (11) and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified. When the lamp of the soul, that is the mind, has been kindled, then it knows that a divine fire has taken hold of it and inflamed it. How great a marvel! Man is united to God spiritually and physically, since the soul is not separated from the mind, neither the body from the soul… It is evident that just as the Father abides in His own Son (12) and the Son in His Father’s bosom (13) by nature, so those who have been born anew through the divine Spirit (14) and by His gift have become the brothers of Christ our God and sons of God and gods by adoption, by grace abide in God and God in them (15).”
St Symeon The New Theologian And Messalianism
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2018 : 09:11:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
“Let no one deceive you! God is light (11) and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified. When the lamp of the soul, that is the mind, has been kindled, then it knows that a divine fire has taken hold of it and inflamed it. How great a marvel! Man is united to God spiritually and physically, since the soul is not separated from the mind, neither the body from the soul… It is evident that just as the Father abides in His own Son (12) and the Son in His Father’s bosom (13) by nature, so those who have been born anew through the divine Spirit (14) and by His gift have become the brothers of Christ our God and sons of God and gods by adoption, by grace abide in God and God in them (15).”
St Symeon The New Theologian And Messalianism
Beautiful! Thank you for sharing this!
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2018 : 09:33:28 AM
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As about the previous discussion, it is important to note that Brahma and Brahman are not the same thing. Brahma (the creator) is one of the gods of the classical Hindi trinity, together with Vishnu (the preserver) and Shiva (the destroyer).
Brahman is the Ultimate Reality in this universe, all that is seen and unseen, all that exists and does not exist and something else. There is no way to put it into words. As one continues on the spiritual path, one knows Brahman because one becomes Brahman - an ultimate layer of unity. Pure Divinity, with unbounded strength and outpouring love, reveals Itself beyond everything, filling one with awe, reverence, and wonder. The Mystery.
I hope that nobody believes this or that, but this discussion is intriguing enough to inspire us all to continue on the spiritual path, and find out the Truth for ourselves. The AYP map is clear.
Thank you, my friends, for being part of this journey. Light and speed for 2019!
Blanche
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maverick angel
France
42 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2019 : 05:54:53 AM
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I feel that we need to see the human being spiritually as a composite entity with various aspects to the 'soul'. The soul is essentially prana, of which there are two kinds active and non active. Kundalini as non active prana is the unawakened part of the soul. This is a good explaination from a Siddha yogi. http://www.thekundaliniyoga.org/que...alini/21.htm
He says that-The Upanishads describe it as Brahman or self. Brahman is the power which is behind the mind to think, eyes to see, ears to hear. It is not the one that mind can comprehend. It is the one by which the mind comprehends. Chetana, the soul or the Atma and is the essence of everything, the force behind everything living and non living in this universe. It is intangible and it is simply impossible for the mind to perceive or comprehend the Chetana. Therefore, a normal person can never perceive the soul. Most of the people talk about soul many times but none of them can comprehend what the soul is, this is because of the reverse relationship between mind and the soul. (It is the soul by which the mind comprehends and not the vice versa.
Mongolian shamanism holds that a human being is a composite entity made of three souls;
The suld soul, which resides in nature after death
The ami body soul, which reincarnates
The suns soul, which also reincarnates
The three souls reside in the field of energy that envelops the physical
body. A living being occupies a spherical field of energy. This sphere has an
upright axis within it, pierced by seven holes that correspond to the seven
chakras. The suld soul resides at the crown of the head, where there is a
direct connection to Father Heaven through the small tenger that is also
located there. The other two souls oscillate back and forth through the
holes of the body axis in a sine wave pattern. In order to be perfectly
balanced, the suns and ami souls should always be on opposite sides of the
axis. The triad of souls which comprises human beings can be seen as a
combination of essences from all three worlds. The need for multiple souls in order to be a visible physical entity implies that a physical living being represents an intersection of spirits from more than one of the three
worlds.'
It is telling that Mongolian shamanism acknowledges a central axis(sushumna) and that two souls osccillate either side of this corresponding with ida and pingala nadis. Buddhist tantra speaks of the 'winds'(pranas) that course through lalana and rasana(ida and pingala nadis) and that the mind rides on these winds. These winds are associated with the five senses and relay experiences to us which we identify with creating the small self. As long as they are coursing in ida and pingala, we are in duality.
In an attempt to sum up, the soul is prana. Active prana(winds, souls') and non-active(kundalini). In order to bring an end to re-incarnation the various aspects must be unified. So kundalini, the non active prana must be activated and reach the crown chakra melting the spirit of enlightenment and the winds that course in ida and pingala must be drawn into sushumna resulting in non-duality and the rainbow body.
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Edited by - maverick angel on Jan 02 2019 08:04:52 AM |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2019 : 12:11:45 PM
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Jonesboy thank you for reading and commenting so brilliantly on my inadequate explanation. I say inadequate, because I was talking about things I no where near fully understand. And also, I believe, about things that no one can fully describe with words.
When looking for the truth I try to look at it from four angles: Scripture, tradition, my own spiritual experience, and by using my own mind and reason. To that I have been adding the teachings of Ramana Maharshi whom I deeply admire as a spiritual teacher. Also I know Sey personally and so my post was directed to her and I was trying to explain it by taking into consideration her own beliefs.
But I really enjoyed your posts. Being a Christian, I of course admire the teachings of Jesus above all others. It’s unfortunate that he never personally wrote anything that survived and that we have to try and understand his teachings based on what others wrote many years after he was crucified. I didn’t recognize your quotes so googled one and saw it was from the Gospel of Thomas. Were all your Jesus quotes from that source? I would love to talk directly to you sometime if you’d like to PM me. It seems we might be kindred spirits, we certainly are both Chistian yoga enthustiasts.
I think there is a place for both dualistic and nondual understandings of the things being discussed here. One begins the spiritual path from a purely dualistic mindset. But somewhere along the journey, if God wills it, we have an awakening and are somehow given a purely nondual perspective on existence. From that point we must begin to try and make sense of the fact that we are one with the entire universe, that we are not separate from God or Self or Consciousness, and that we are intimately connected to everyone else, even those who hate and despise us. My own reality is that I am at present, kind of vasillating between Self-realization and being plunged back into dualism each time I get hated on by a particular co-worker who’s hatered of me is proving to be quite the acid test of my ability to remain in the Self.
“There are three kinds of devotion: tamasic, rajasic, and sattvic. If a person, in his devotion to God, is actuated by maleviolence, arrogance, jealousy, or anger, then his devotion is tamasic, since it is influenced by tamas, the quality of inertia and darkness. If he worships God from a desire for fame or wealth, or from any worldly ambition, then his devotion is rajasic, since it is influenced by rajas, the quality of activity. But if a person loves God without any thought of material gain, if he performs his duties to please God alone and maintains toward all created beings the attitude of friendship, then his devotion is called sattvic, since it is influenced by sattva, the quality of harmony.
But the highest devotion transcends the three gunas, or qualities, being sponteneous, uninterrupted inclination of the mind toward God, the inner Soul of all beings.”
Swami Nikhilananda
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Edited by - Herb on Jan 03 2019 11:17:40 AM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2019 : 10:09:50 AM
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Hi Herb,
Thank you for the kind words.
I am sorry I didn't understand your post was directed at Sey and that I intruded upon the conversation.
Yes the quotes were from the Gospel of Thomas. If you are interested there are a couple of threads were we are going over the quotes one by one and I could always post a link.
PM sent and looking forward to talking to you more :) |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2019 : 3:30:40 PM
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Jonesboy this is a public forum. I look at the evaluation of anything I do or say in as positive a way as possible. The Bible and Ramana both suggest we look at critizism as a way that God corrects and turns us back to him. The hard part is always in not responding egoically by taking it as a personal attack.
I couldn’t find a way to check my PM’s and I found my email address here was an old one that is not active any longer. I sent you a message through this site that I think goes to you as an email. Please check your inbox as well as your junk box. If you don’t have my message please send me one here through my updated email, and you might have to include your email address for me to email you back directly. I didn’t include my phone number in my message but am open to talking to you that way. I have a few days off work now.
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Edited by - Herb on Jan 04 2019 4:06:26 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2019 : 11:51:28 AM
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Herb,
Sent you an email as well as a link, which is the easiest way of talking to me.
Looking forward to talking more. #128522; |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2019 : 01:24:09 AM
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From Tantra Illuminated an interesting perspective on the Soul
quote:
TATTVA #12: INDIVIDUAL “SOUL” (purusa, the knowing subject, the Self, the witness, pure consciousness, the embodied knower of the field = atman, jiva, kesetrajña). The purusa sits at the top of the hierarchy of tattvas in the system of Sankhya and the classical yoga of Patañjali. For those non-Tantrik systems, it is the ultimate principle, a transcendent reality: spirit as opposed to matter/ energy. They propose that there are a plurality of divine Souls (each sentient being having his own), that are not part of one overarching conscious entity. For Tantrik philosophy, it naturally follows, the purusa is not the highest principle for it does not express an all-encompassingView. Rather, purusa is correctly understood as contracted form of the universal Consciousness. It is individuated consciousness, defined as Siva veiled by five types of limitation (see below). In some systems of Indian philosophy, the individual soul is a permanent entity, but in Tantrik Shaivism it is a phase of contraction, and every contraction gives way to expansion—in this case, the expansion back into the absolute fullness of unlimited divine Awareness. So, the individual soul is not permanent: though it may last for thousands of lifetimes, it is still a wave on the ocean of being. But how does Siva, the absolute Consciousness, manifest itself in the form of an individual like you? By concealing its fullness with five “veils.”
Sey
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Edited by - SeySorciere on Jan 19 2019 01:34:01 AM |
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Nepal Yoga Institute
Nepal
1 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2019 : 05:27:52 AM
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| emotional or intellectual energy or intensity, especially as revealed in a work of art or an artistic performance.This is what i know about soul. |
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SuperTrouper
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2019 : 8:29:13 PM
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| In my personal view, awareness itself is the soul that transmigrates and experiences each life. Most of that time, awareness is obscured by thinking and feeling. Few ever experience an awareness unhinged from constant thinking and feeling, seeing thoughts and feelings like a distant storm on the horizon of the body, untouched but aware. That, to me, is freedom. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2019 : 09:19:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SuperTrouper
In my personal view, awareness itself is the soul that transmigrates and experiences each life. Most of that time, awareness is obscured by thinking and feeling. Few ever experience an awareness unhinged from constant thinking and feeling, seeing thoughts and feelings like a distant storm on the horizon of the body, untouched but aware. That, to me, is freedom.
Thank you for that.
To me the Witness is a stage. Like mindfulness in meditation. It is when one has realized some silence in daily life.
Thoughts are not the enemy, they are not to be ignored or witnessed.
It is all about the Clarity of thoughts.
Buddhism teaches this very well using the stages of Shine with object to realizing the movement of thoughts and up to the 3 aspects of the Primordial Nature. |
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greymatter
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2019 : 10:17:41 AM
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quote:
William James: The Varieties of Religious Experience "Into this pervading genius we pass, forgetting and forgotten, and thenceforth each is all, in God. There is no higher, no deeper, no other, than the life in which we are founded. The one remains the many change and pass."
To me, a soul is unique to an individual. It generates and organizes our experiences, both consciously and unconsciously. It is memory and self consciousness, and personal values. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2019 : 1:18:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by greymatter
quote:
William James: The Varieties of Religious Experience "Into this pervading genius we pass, forgetting and forgotten, and thenceforth each is all, in God. There is no higher, no deeper, no other, than the life in which we are founded. The one remains the many change and pass."
To me, a soul is unique to an individual. It generates and organizes our experiences, both consciously and unconsciously. It is memory and self consciousness, and personal values.
How is that different than the ego or the local body mind? |
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greymatter
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2019 : 11:57:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
quote:
Originally posted by greymatter
quote:
William James: The Varieties of Religious Experience "Into this pervading genius we pass, forgetting and forgotten, and thenceforth each is all, in God. There is no higher, no deeper, no other, than the life in which we are founded. The one remains the many change and pass."
To me, a soul is unique to an individual. It generates and organizes our experiences, both consciously and unconsciously. It is memory and self consciousness, and personal values.
How is that different than the ego or the local body mind?
The soul of a person exists beyond the mind. In the James quote, he is referring to a branch of mystical interpretation which purports that there is no connection to souls outside our own. So as a body and mind change, grow and die, a soul will stand eternal, complete and separate, "free from alien terror". |
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slegrand
Canada
6 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2019 : 08:53:49 AM
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Hello,
I'm new here and really enjoyed reading this topic.
Please bear with my English, my first langage being French.
There is a kite in the sky, dancing to the wind, held by a rope to the ground. When the rope is cut it could fly to the sun and merge with it, or simply fall to the ground for another person to make it fly again.
But who needs a kite to first see the sun or the sky and then simply completely merge in it? |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2019 : 4:09:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by slegrand
Hello,
I'm new here and really enjoyed reading this topic.
Please bear with my English, my first langage being French.
There is a kite in the sky, dancing to the wind, held by a rope to the ground. When the rope is cut it could fly to the sun and merge with it, or simply fall to the ground for another person to make it fly again.
But who needs a kite to first see the sun or the sky and then simply completely merge in it?
See the sun and the sky is the easy part. Becoming one with it all is the hard part. One where if you ask me everyone but a very few through the ages has needed help with. |
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© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
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What exactly is the Soul?
