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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 15 2018 : 06:51:32 AM
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It has probably been discussed before, but I would like to raise the subject again because as understanding deepens, I find myself asking the question with no clear answer.
At best, I would now say it is the stream of Consciousness that is "yours"?? Is Soul = Consciousness?
Grateful for your perceptions /understanding of what most major religion call the Soul
Sey  |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2018 : 12:28:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
It has probably been discussed before, but I would like to raise the subject again because as understanding deepens, I find myself asking the question with no clear answer.
At best, I would now say it is the stream of Consciousness that is "yours"?? Is Soul = Consciousness?
Grateful for your perceptions /understanding of what most major religion call the Soul.
Sey
It really depends on the tradition of what is a soul or even if there is one.
In Hindu traditions there is Brahman, God and we are all within this Bubble that is Brahman. We are either an aspect of Brahman or we can have the same realization of that which is Brahman.
One way of looking at it is to use the Tao Te Ching (TTC) to explain it.
First there is the Dao (emptiness) from the Dao came the One. The One is Brahman, Siva, Universal Mind. In Hinduism again, all there is, is just this One.
A Buddha is one that has realized emptiness (Dao) of Universal Mind and with that realization becomes there own One. Or you could say in Buddhism there are limitless One's.
The realizations within the various traditions are much different as well. Here is a little write up from a friend.
Vedanta realization is about avidya or ignorance clouding the Brahman/Atman. All that is needed is for this cloud to pass and the Brahman to shine like sun. Jnana or Knowledge by intellectual questioning is enough to remove this ignorance. Everything is also an expression of one Brahman in this non-dual. Abhinavagupta's non-dual is bheda-abheda, it accepts both differentiation (immanent) and the non differentiated conciousness (transcendent) to be equally and simultaneously true. It is all one vibration of the divine in KS. Therefore duality is equally valid in this view as the non-dual. It is never not the true, partially true or just a stage to cross over to higher.
Then, it is not the avidya/ignorance that is the problem, but it is about maya (a divine force) that makes us forget who we are and engage in this game. The anugraha or divine grace helps remove the Maya and make us realize, we are essentially Shiva. This may sound similar because there are some similarities. But there are some glaring differences. The vivarta vada, that the manifested world is not real, but appears so, like a rope mistaken for snake is entirely rejected by Abhinavagupta. He explains why in detail. There can't be one Brahman that is all knowing and all pervading and also ignorant (avidya) at the same time. There are some major logical loop holes as pointed by many.
As it concerns to Buddhism, it is even simpler and clear to see the differences. There is no Isvara (one all encompassing divine), Buddha rejected this completely and he is right in my opinion. There goes most arguments towards jinanmukta. Even ignoring that huge thing, anatta, no self and one supreme Self /Atman are diametrically opposite concepts. Emptiness is NOT the One Brahman. Never.
.....
So you could say the soul is Universal Mind in one aspect or another but one can move beyond even that state of being or realization. |
Edited by - jonesboy on Oct 15 2018 2:43:30 PM |
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yo_gi
Germany
47 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2018 : 05:27:26 AM
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Maybe 'soul' is just an idea the absolute creates within itself to have something to identify with - for the purpose of relation. The archetype of individuality... pure, without any further addition of attributes.
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2018 : 01:17:49 AM
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Hey Sey, funny you should ask this. I was chatting with another AYP member. I told him that I've never found a soul and didn't understand what people meant by that a few weeks ago. I can't help you. I can't find one.
But you're not alone with the question. |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2018 : 10:02:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
At best, I would now say it is the stream of Consciousness that is "yours"?? Is Soul = Consciousness?
Grateful for your perceptions /understanding of what most major religion call the Soul
Sey
Hi, Sey -
The soul is the supreme, unmanifest consciousness. No, the soul is not "mine" or "yours", as there are no real entities separated from the Absolute Reality. That is, there is not a you or a me with a real identity. It is quite easy to see this in meditation, where all our identifications, including the sense of I-ness, dissolve. Eventually, this falling away of the identifications becomes stable, and we realize that it has always been only One here.
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2018 : 10:10:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
Hey Sey, funny you should ask this. I was chatting with another AYP member. I told him that I've never found a soul and didn't understand what people meant by that a few weeks ago. I can't help you. I can't find one.
But you're not alone with the question.
Hi, Lalow -
If by "soul" you mean the "small self", you are right: no one can find it, as there is no real, separate self, no stable identity in the small self for anyone. However, in time, it becomes obvious that while we are not the small self, we are That, the Absolute.
I am looking forward to hearing about this from you, as it reveals Itself.
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2018 : 1:36:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
At best, I would now say it is the stream of Consciousness that is "yours"?? Is Soul = Consciousness?
Grateful for your perceptions /understanding of what most major religion call the Soul
Sey
Hi, Sey -
The soul is the supreme, unmanifest consciousness. No, the soul is not "mine" or "yours", as there are no real entities separated from the Absolute Reality. That is, there is not a you or a me with a real identity. It is quite easy to see this in meditation, where all our identifications, including the sense of I-ness, dissolve. Eventually, this falling away of the identifications becomes stable, and we realize that it has always been only One here.
Hi Blanche,
To me that is just more a realization of silence. An aspect of the void. One is still meditating, a state of realization that comes and goes and hence still within the local mind.
Adding in another tradition. From a Mystical Christianity perspective the realization of the soul would be the realization of the light body or the rainbow body in Buddhism which is still different that than being a Son of God. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2018 : 2:09:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
Adding in another tradition. From a Mystical Christianity perspective the realization of the soul would be the realization of the light body or the rainbow body in Buddhism which is still different that than being a Son of God.
Hi Jonesboy,
Can you elaborate on the realization of light body?
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2018 : 3:14:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
Adding in another tradition. From a Mystical Christianity perspective the realization of the soul would be the realization of the light body or the rainbow body in Buddhism which is still different that than being a Son of God.
Hi Jonesboy,
Can you elaborate on the realization of light body?
Once one has opened all 7 chakras the next step you could say is they begin to integrate. This integration is the beginning of what is called the light body or the realization of emptiness of self. The beginning really of being able to perceive beyond the local body mind.
For people that can feel energy it is the difference between feeling others outside of you to knowing/feeling them all inside of you as you.
With such a realization one is able to directly share with others. Mind to mind transmissions are possible like what is described with the merging of consciousness like the Rites of Adoration in Kashmir Shaivism describe. One has greater access to the divine..
All sorts of interesting and fun stuff.
Please let me know if you have any specific questions. More than happy to answer them.
All the best,
Tom |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2018 : 3:41:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
Adding in another tradition. From a Mystical Christianity perspective the realization of the soul would be the realization of the light body or the rainbow body in Buddhism which is still different that than being a Son of God.
Hi Jonesboy,
Can you elaborate on the realization of light body?
Once one has opened all 7 chakras the next step you could say is they begin to integrate. This integration is the beginning of what is called the light body or the realization of emptiness of self. The beginning really of being able to perceive beyond the local body mind.
For people that can feel energy it is the difference between feeling others outside of you to knowing/feeling them all inside of you as you.
With such a realization one is able to directly share with others. Mind to mind transmissions are possible like what is described with the merging of consciousness like the Rites of Adoration in Kashmir Shaivism describe. One has greater access to the divine..
All sorts of interesting and fun stuff.
Please let me know if you have any specific questions. More than happy to answer them.
All the best,
Tom
Thank you, Jonesboy.
Light body= Empty Fullness. Is that correct?
With the realization of empty fullness- why the need for mind to mind transmission? Isn't one a conduit of the divine? The transmission is happening on it's own?
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2018 : 12:33:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
Adding in another tradition. From a Mystical Christianity perspective the realization of the soul would be the realization of the light body or the rainbow body in Buddhism which is still different that than being a Son of God.
Hi Jonesboy,
Can you elaborate on the realization of light body?
Once one has opened all 7 chakras the next step you could say is they begin to integrate. This integration is the beginning of what is called the light body or the realization of emptiness of self. The beginning really of being able to perceive beyond the local body mind.
For people that can feel energy it is the difference between feeling others outside of you to knowing/feeling them all inside of you as you.
With such a realization one is able to directly share with others. Mind to mind transmissions are possible like what is described with the merging of consciousness like the Rites of Adoration in Kashmir Shaivism describe. One has greater access to the divine..
All sorts of interesting and fun stuff.
Please let me know if you have any specific questions. More than happy to answer them.
All the best,
Tom
Thank you, Jonesboy.
Light body= Empty Fullness. Is that correct?
With the realization of empty fullness- why the need for mind to mind transmission? Isn't one a conduit of the divine? The transmission is happening on it's own?
Hi Sunyata,
Yes, I would agree that emptiness = fullness or you could even say infinite potential.
What I so poorly described was that the realization of the light body is more like the first part of the Heart Sutra void=form. One has realized Universal Mind to one degree or another.
For example, you mentioned the divine. Yes, one can receive transmissions or powerful connections but even more one can become One with such beings.
Think of such a practice as a very powerful means of removing obstructions. In addition as one progresses, others are able to access the divine through you in various ways.
Just like with divine beings on can help others progress along the path. That is really what I was referring to with regard to mind to mind transmission. That it is possible to help others remove obstructions and realize deeper states of realization.
Sorry for any confusion.
Tom |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2018 : 3:23:06 PM
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| the soul is the full expression of love . |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2018 : 3:34:08 PM
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No worries, Tom.
Can you share your experience with the subtle layers of creation? Are you able to do access this at your will?
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Edited by - sunyata on Oct 21 2018 3:35:36 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2018 : 09:21:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
No worries, Tom.
Can you share your experience with the subtle layers of creation? Are you able to do access this at your will?
That depends on what you think creation is. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2018 : 09:57:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
No worries, Tom.
Can you share your experience with the subtle layers of creation? Are you able to do access this at your will?
That depends on what you think creation is.
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2018 : 4:04:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
No worries, Tom.
Can you share your experience with the subtle layers of creation? Are you able to do access this at your will?
That depends on what you think creation is.
I am more than willing to discuss and share my view/experience as it also I think relates to what is a soul. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2018 : 08:25:24 AM
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Hi Tom,
Everything is divine. There is nothing but "One". The creator and creation is "One". Our "true nature" "Self" and many other names and labels that are used. The Self manifested itself to play "Lila" this game. The cosmic joke is this realization.
However, there is automatically a duality when anything is manifested from the absolute reality, even when divine beings are involved. Duality is a way the Self experiences itself. From this perspective, creation has different gradations, levels of creation: from gross to subtle.
Since, you often mention merging with divine beings and so forth. I was interested in hearing your experience. And this is where these questions are arising from :Can you share your experience with the subtle layers of creation? Are you able to do access this at your will?
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Edited by - sunyata on Oct 24 2018 9:18:31 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2018 : 1:45:09 PM
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Thank you sunyata for that explanation. My view is a little different.
To me there is no nothing but "One". You could say this is where I agree with the Buddhist that there are limitless "Ones" or Buddha's. Your more Hindu view is there is only One and depending on the tradition we are an aspect of that One or we can have the same realization of the One but still part of that One.
I also differ on your view of duality.. but I will get into that later
So here is my view on creation and I will try and explain it in stages of realization as best I can.
We are all familiar with meditation. As we progress we develop silence and get to the point where we can observe our thoughts, aka mindfulness meditation.
Once we realize silence in daily life we realize what is called The Witness, basically mindfulness in daily life.
The next step is that one is able to realize the underlying energy of thoughts. That they are flows of energy. The ability to reside in those flows be they silent or not results in deep clarity and what Dzogchen Master Norbu has described as Rigpa.
So far with increased silence we have also realized deeper levels of energy that is us. We have realized that we have an association to thoughts which are attachments which at deeper levels are really just energy.
This person that is Tom and everything that makes up who I am is just a deeper attachment. It is no different that how one is first caught up in a thought and then realizes the Witness. Think of it as a flow of energy that we are caught up in.
Kashmir Shaivism talks about two aspects of the One, expansion and contraction. I will use the terms transmission and reception.
Now, I am not talking about astral projection with my next description. That is dualistic.
When you work with a powerful being something amazing can happen. One can get caught up in the transmission. What that means is one can be transported to a world as real as this one. One can feel, taste and touch. There is no difference between that experience and this world.
It is how a Buddha creates Pure Lands in Buddhism. You can think of us as beings that manifest in that transmission to remove the obstructions that keep us from our true nature.
All of creation is that transmission/Shakti.
As far as duality of other beings, are you familiar with the KS term kula? Here is the great master Abhinavagupta describing it.
quote:
"In the inconceivable enormity of Siva's game, any self-contained
unit - for example, our universe - may be termed a kula. The unit is
self-sufficient precisely because it is a part that is structured out of wholeness.
Since the kula's essential reality is finally that wholeness which it
has bodied forth, every unit, or kula, resonates in identity with every
other structure composed of that wholeness. It is in this way that the
human body, as a kula, resonates in identity with the entire universe."
So how is that experienced? I will share some of my stages with it.
I mentioned thoughts as flows of energy earlier. That is something that I first experienced when I went light. I felt the flows, not just through my entire body 24/7 but also like this wind twirling like a fan in my head. At first you could say it was like a giant white light, blinded by the light but as I progressed I could see that light was made up of infinite individual lights, those lights being everyone.
I could think of a person and feel the flow of that person, could think of them, feel that flow and for instance introduce someone to deeper levels of silence.
At this time I was also still feeling energy from outside of me. I would feel it coming in from the heart, from the crown, from people and beings. Then something cool happened.
Those flows that were thoughts, I use to reside in them a lot. During conversations, when chilling around the house but the problem is that just residing in them was dualistic. There is a you and the flows.
The next stage is you become those flows and an important change happens at this point. No longer do you feel any energy outside of you. There isn't energy from others outside of you, no flows as thoughts. At this point it is all inside of you, there is no energy, no person, being, place that is not within you, as you.
Whew, that is a long post.. but I will end it with a quote that a friend of mine recently posted about light.
quote:
We are all part of one universal mind. Those with their heart and throat (4&5) chakras open, may be able to feel the energy from others remotely. Those with the 3rd eye open (6th chakra), might be able to see and feel remotely, not just into others in this world, but beings like deities, etc. in other dimensions. Astral travel might also be possible. But what we see at this level (6th) is the translation of the underlying energy into vision, by our local mind.
After the crown (7th chakra) is open and subsequently with divine grace, one reaches the light state. At this state the 7 chakras collapse into a unified field, which is also referred to as inner heart, or the 8th chakra. At this level, it is not seeing anymore, but a person is expanding to actually be everything there is.
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Edited by - jonesboy on Oct 23 2018 2:06:11 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2018 : 4:12:58 PM
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Thank you sunyata.
You are not diverting from anything as I am enjoying the conversation. I rarely talk about myself anymore. To be honest I rarely talk about light stuff nowadays and always feel unsure about doing so here at AYP. Very different means.
All the best to you |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2018 : 7:05:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
When you work with a powerful being something amazing can happen. One can get caught up in the transmission. What that means is one can be transported to a world as real as this one. One can feel, taste and touch. There is no difference between that experience and this world.
It is how a Buddha creates Pure Lands in Buddhism. You can think of us as beings that manifest in that transmission to remove the obstructions that keep us from our true nature.
Hi Tom!
Interesting stuff, thank you for sharing your experience. One question for you...what happens with your local “Tom” body/mind while you are transported to that other world?
Sorry if that’s a stupid question 
Much Love |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2018 : 7:58:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
When you work with a powerful being something amazing can happen. One can get caught up in the transmission. What that means is one can be transported to a world as real as this one. One can feel, taste and touch. There is no difference between that experience and this world.
It is how a Buddha creates Pure Lands in Buddhism. You can think of us as beings that manifest in that transmission to remove the obstructions that keep us from our true nature.
Hi Tom!
Interesting stuff, thank you for sharing your experience. One question for you...what happens with your local “Tom” body/mind while you are transported to that other world?
Sorry if that’s a stupid question
Much Love
Great question.
If you are still at the stage of "Tom" then Tom is now in that world. This world, that world.. it is all of the mind. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2018 : 10:07:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
Thank you sunyata.
You are not diverting from anything as I am enjoying the conversation. I rarely talk about myself anymore. To be honest I rarely talk about light stuff nowadays and always feel unsure about doing so here at AYP. Very different means.
All the best to you
Hi Jonesboy,
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I enjoyed reading it.
Wishing you the best.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2018 : 03:06:27 AM
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All very interesting. Jonesboy - why would you say that these "Ones" are not Buddha created astral worlds? They sound very much astral to me.
But I have also been wondering if there are more than the One that we come into unity with.
Sey |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2018 : 03:14:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
At best, I would now say it is the stream of Consciousness that is "yours"?? Is Soul = Consciousness?
Grateful for your perceptions /understanding of what most major religion call the Soul
Sey
Hi, Sey -
The soul is the supreme, unmanifest consciousness. No, the soul is not "mine" or "yours", as there are no real entities separated from the Absolute Reality. That is, there is not a you or a me with a real identity. It is quite easy to see this in meditation, where all our identifications, including the sense of I-ness, dissolve. Eventually, this falling away of the identifications becomes stable, and we realize that it has always been only One here.
Dear Blanche - I'm afraid that is not the Christians point of view. A Soul is a 'something' that is individual. We each have a soul - hence my trying to figure what what they could possibly mean.
Sey |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2018 : 10:11:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
All very interesting. Jonesboy - why would you say that these "Ones" are not Buddha created astral worlds? They sound very much astral to me.
But I have also been wondering if there are more than the One that we come into unity with.
Sey
Do you consider this world astral?
A Buddha is a being that has realized the emptiness of Universal Mind. Who has moved beyond or realized the emptiness of the "One".
In Hinduism, there is just one, One and you are a part of it.
This world seems real because you are caught up in it. To a Buddha, it may just be astral or maya if you prefer that term. To a Buddha it is all energy and emptiness... well not completely true..
In Mystical Christianity the realization of the soul is realizing the light. A Son of God or One with the Father is the same thing as a Buddha.
From GOT:
50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"
The place where the light came into being by itself is emptiness. The light in it's image is the One. Motion and rest is the same thing as Void=form and form=void in Buddhism.
So where is heaven? Within you and outside of you.. non dual..
3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty." |
Edited by - jonesboy on Oct 25 2018 10:27:59 AM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2018 : 10:38:38 PM
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| GOT(jonesboy), I'm thinking Game Of Thrones. So, what's everyone's experience as a soul? Is it you that travels around the universe? Is it witnessing for you? Is it the merging? Is it being light? Is it unity? |
Edited by - lalow33 on Oct 25 2018 11:46:25 PM |
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What exactly is the Soul?
