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shuks
Singapore
4 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 03 2018 : 10:43:05 AM
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Hello All,
I wonder how long does it generally take for the witness to come into experience once we start practicing DM ?
I can imagine it will depend on a lot of parameters but in general for average new starter how long does it typically take ?
This may help us to keep patience for a minimum duration before getting overly concerned about the quality of our practices.
Thanks
Shashank |
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albechan
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2018 : 02:38:44 AM
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Hello Shuks,
Although I've been orbiting around things spiritual for a few years, I am very new to yoga and AYP practices in particular so perhaps I'm in the position to give you some hints that you may refer to.
The short answer to your question is: the experience of the witness during DM is instantaneous.
At first, you may not notice it because your expectations and excitement keep fueling your mind, stirring the surface from which the inner silence can be perceived.
Nevertheless, the very fact that you feel that something is implies the presence of the witness so you're already at that stage.
To stabilize the inner silence and living our life moving the focus of our perception from the monkey mind to stillness (inner silence), though is something different and how long that takes is really relative as it is a very subjective happening.
What can probably be felt by the majority of people in a pretty short time (about one week with regular DM practice twice a day) is the fact that the implosion of the mind following the absorption in the mantra that gives rise to that sort of numbing and magnetic feeling in your head tends to reverberate for a while after the meditation session.
The more you practice the more your nervous system purifies and the longer the inner silence linges in all your activities.
On a side note, it's my impression that it's preferable not to expect anything that dramatic at first: better to try to sense the more subtle nuances of the experience.
If you watch closely enough you will start to feel like being at the boundary of a black hole event horizon. Once you cross that thin line, things won't need to be driven anymore. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2018 : 05:23:39 AM
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How can you be sure that the witness isn't already present?
To even ask the question about the presence of a witness, or lack thereof, seems to indicate a curious witness underneath, ironically. 
Perhaps the presence of inner silence and stillness comes in waves. Deepening and retracting at times, but always flowing, constantly.
Can we honestly say that we haven't looked upon a child and seen a witnessing quality present in the way they're perceiving the world?
For me, Deep Meditation is just an ongoing opportunity to turn inward and get more in touch with that inseparable part of myself. Deep Meditation doesn't really create a witness. It is, rather, a witness who is already present and seeking to know himself/herself/itself more intimately. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2018 : 3:31:08 PM
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Hi Shuks,
The time frame for the Witness is different for everyone. For some it may be months and others it could take years.
Just like everything else the Witness is just a step along the path.
Good luck,
Tom |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2018 : 4:11:23 PM
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Bodhi is on to something: children witness early, and then ego overtakes it somewhere along the way. Perhaps it is because with dedicated meditation practice, ego is overtaken by witness in time.
Keep practicing, and one day something will happen and you will feel as if you are participating and watching it simultaneously. It is a strange and unforgettable thing. |
Edited by - Dogboy on Jun 04 2018 4:19:21 PM |
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shuks
Singapore
4 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2018 : 04:14:40 AM
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| Thanks to everyone who replied...and for giving the right perspective. May I ask you guys to share your personal experiences on this? |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2018 : 06:23:54 AM
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I can remember at a young age being able to hear thoughts in my mind, and then being able to turn them into spoken words coming out of my mouth. That was the witness, yes? And it was more than the witness, really. It was the creator as well. To witness is a passive activity; to create is an active job. Both archetypes are necessary.
Same with lucid dreaming as a young teenager (long before any formal meditation). I could sustain my present awareness throughout the REM dream state, and also in other states of consciousness in between.
But I never really labeled my constancy of awareness as the witness. I just instinctually knew it was my self, and not some spiritual stage of attainment. But, as adults, like Dogboy said, I suppose we have to re-acqauint our mind with our fundamental nature and presence. It seems to be a process of forgetting and remembrance.
If the witness is anything, it is the subject, and not an object inside the subject, if that makes sense. It's pure subjectivity, which works perfectly in tandem with all possible objective scenarios. Divine paradox. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2018 : 10:59:18 AM
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| The witness is the sameness about you( even though you've grow up, even though you have different thoughts, even though you have different goals,etc). It's always here. |
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albechan
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2018 : 11:58:31 AM
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It may be useful to share some considerations that I gathered in the past through other people highly helpful insights on the Dzogchen angle on the issue which I think can aid to point at the moon when it’s not exactly clear what is meant to be experienced.
One way to realize the inner silence is through the direct experience within one's own mind by a very subtle glancing at the nature of one's current mind and awareness. Instead of attention being focused on the various mental events as thoughts and images in the mind, one is attending to the knowing faculty which is itself aware and knowing that the mental events are occurring.
This creates an introverted state of the mind becoming more aware of its own knowing awareness instead of its mental contents. One can notice that their awareness seems to be like "aware space" with no material features, empty but knowingly aware.
Noticing this empty nature of one's own awareness, one now let's this subtle attention rest and dissolve in its own "aware emptiness" with no mental topic or agenda.
The wisdoms arise only during a point of total equipoise or stillness through the absence of ALL other mental activity. This crystal clear stillness occurs naturally as the attention comes to rest upon its own inner cognitive awareness.
Any effort to encourage this state to arise tends to block it. It occurs only in the moment of perfect mental stillness brought about by the subtle inward glance of having one's own attentive light look into itself.
I personally feel that DM in AYP style is an extremely effective way to achieve this. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2018 : 1:08:04 PM
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albechan,
That post makes it seem super complicated. It's not at all.
The background becomes the foreground. |
Edited by - lalow33 on Jun 05 2018 1:23:53 PM |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2018 : 9:25:27 PM
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Q:
What about the witness? Is it real or unreal?
M:
It is both. The last remnant of illusion, the first touch of the real. To say: I am only the witness is both false and true: false because of the 'I am', true because of the witness. It is better to say: 'there is witnessing'. The moment you say: 'I am', the entire universe comes into being along with its creator.
Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2018 : 10:05:56 PM
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quote:
May I ask you guys to share your personal experiences on this?
Between raising an autistic child and married to someone trying to stay sober, my house can be chaotic in isolated moments, and immediately within those moments are pockets of silence, and clarity, and inquiry (why am I not upset? Should I be?), and safety from suffering. My practice has allowed me not to put up walls. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2018 : 02:52:44 AM
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HI shuks
When I first started practising yoga and meditation, the first thing I noticed was more peace and more joy in my life. The Witness may be easy to miss for some, as it can be a very subtle experience, but you should notice some changes over the months and years of practice. Based on my experience, I would say: give it at least 6 months before you begin to think about assessing the results.
For how long have you been practising? Are you practising AYP or a different form of meditation?
In my experience, mantra meditation is the most powerful form there is, so I would expect practitioners to notice results faster with mantra meditation. Other meditation objects, like the breath also work well, but a bit slower.
One mistake people sometimes make is to go straight into vipassana (insight or passive awareness) types of meditation. Unless they are especially gifted, they can waste years on this type of meditation, getting nowhere.
So you need to choose your technique wisely, then trust in the practice.
Good luck! |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Jun 06 2018 02:54:02 AM |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2018 : 11:15:42 AM
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Hi shuks,
Welcome to the forum! Good advice from all.
As Yogani says it depends on our matrix of obstructions. The only thing we have control over is our twice daily sitting practices. So, continue with your practices.
I'm reminded of the analogy that we are like fish swimming in the ocean looking for water. It takes dedication, faith, patience to realize that we have always been in the water or we are the water.
Much Love. |
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shuks
Singapore
4 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2018 : 10:46:02 PM
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Hi Blue Raincoat,
Thanks for your reply....your guidance is helpful. I've been doing AYP DM for over a month now...and this is the only meditation practice I do. I can see this is very effective....however I was not sure when is the right time to verify if I'm doing it right.
I also do Shambhavi Mahamudra that was learnt elsewhere.
Hello Sunyata, Thanks for your reply.
Kind Regards
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FakeYogi
India
100 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 5:01:55 PM
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BlueRainCoat,
I'm thinking of the opposite of what you said. I've been doing AYP since 2006, that's a very long period and yet I don't think I have a witness arisen in me. Recent several months I consistently black out during meditation, with no awareness of any kind, and I suspect I'm at a road block. I'm starting to think that for some people like me, mantra meditation doesn't go all the way by itself, and perhaps some conscious training of the mind, like one of the Buddhist methods might actually help. I have lately been very sad thinking of this fact, that I have been so dedicated and yet only wasting time with no progress for years. Fyi other persons like TibetanIce in the past also have felt that Ayp is not perfect and I'm starting to agree. In Ayp we are doing mantra meditation and expect the mind to clear itself and the witness to arise with no active involvement from us, but it isn't happening to me. What if the witness requires a little more active help to make it come out, what if the Buddhist monks were not wrong? Blacking out consistently during meditation doesn't seem right to me, I thought it would pass and I would start remaining aware during deep meditation, but it isn't happening. And needless to say I don't seem to be bringing out much silence into daily life either. This is really stressing me out. Even Yogani in his lessons says you start seeing results and it motivates you to keep up a twice-daily schedule, otherwise why bother, but I have been going and going with will power alone, seeing nothing at all coming out. |
Edited by - FakeYogi on Jul 29 2018 6:44:46 PM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 7:23:56 PM
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| The activity inhibits it. So if you are trying real hard, that will cover it up. You are aware of changing circumstances, yes? That's the witness. |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 9:37:34 PM
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AYP mantra meditation, over time, reduces the ego chatter in your head as inner silence builds, not only in the session but in every day life. We live in a world of high ego energy, ours and everyone else's, all competing for attention, judging ourselves and others, confining things into rows and rows of chaotic boxes or dismissing things outright without much introspection. Witness is recognizing when we fall into these tricks and traps and having the inclination to examine these thoughts and actions as they arise and knowing that we are not the chatter. Inner silence is the space between words; without that space it is just a flood of letters.
Are you sure you are the same as you were twelve years ago, before AYP? |
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FakeYogi
India
100 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 9:37:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
The activity inhibits it. So if you are trying real hard, that will cover it up. You are aware of changing circumstances, yes? That's the witness.
I don't mean I should try witnessing activity during Ayp mantra meditation. I'm implying that during daily living I'm probably putting more dirt so that the witness gets suppressed, and that calls for changing or supplementing my practice routine that probably involves trying to consciously witness so that the real witness may awaken?.
quote:
Originally posted by Dogboy
Are you sure you are the same as you were twelve years ago, before AYP?
Let's not dilute the promises offered by Ayp, which is a 24x7 abiding inner silence, even during sleep. I haven't received it after putting in the required hard work that was asked. Even a non-meditator can sit for 10 minutes and be able to witness for atleast 30 sec in that time, about his life and circumstances and his reactions. We are not talking about that. There is a lesson in ayp for under-sensitive meditators and I'm not doing any of the mistakes called out in that. So it is the technique itself that has to be questioned now. |
Edited by - FakeYogi on Jul 29 2018 9:57:47 PM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 10:38:17 PM
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| No! Trying is the worstest!!!! |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 11:03:01 PM
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FY, it is impossible for me to speak directly to what could be holding you back as I don't know you, or your practice, or what you may be doing wrong or right, or why you are under the impression that nothing has worked for you. I can only share how it is working for me.
I've been at it five years, and I certainly am nowhere near abiding inner silence 24/7, nor do I expect to get there anytime in the near future. The first year I didn't think much of anything was happening, deemed myself under sensitive, and decided to be disciplined to Yogani's teachings and practice structure. I noticed my thoughts were less intrusive in and out of practice, and had the sense of witnessing in a particular (outwardly) stressful situation, but not much overt change. And then I experienced one particular session that reduced me (quite unexpectantly) to tears, all the bottled up feelings and fears came up to the surface and spilled forth.
All went quiet for another six months, and I just kept at it twice a day, like clockwork, and sure enough, the ecstatic energy within me was slowly revealed. This was the proof positive that AYP practice was bearing some tanglible fruit. Now three and a half years beyond that I know I am nowhere near "enlightenment", whatever that truly is, whatever that truly means. Within the energy is the knowing that silence is so much deeper than I am prepared to experience; that as much as I have purified, I also muddy it up with some of my daily actions and thoughts, the old "two steps forward, one step back". I am a constant work-in-progress. My practice affords me the state and peace of mind to be okay with all of that, and to relish each tiny morsel of truth as it is revealed, and to let it be, and pass it like a sutra.
This is my testimony, as valid as yours to be sure. If you truly have plumbed AYP with an open heart and surrendered all attachments while soldering through your dedicated practice, and still have not found any semblance of improvement, then perhaps your myriad of blockages are too great for this practice to crack, and would not blame you for trying something else. 
I know I am grateful that AYP is slowly changing me for the better by revealing glimpses of what is possible and firing up my Bhakti to get there someday, if that is meant for me in this lifetime.
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 11:55:04 PM
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| Nope everyone, witnessing is the most simple aspect. It's always there( until falling into unity). Too many words for what is already happening. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2018 : 07:21:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by FakeYogi
Recent several months I consistently black out during meditation, with no awareness of any kind, and I suspect I'm at a road block.
Hi FakeYogi
I completely sympathise with your difficulties. It is possible to have blockages so serious that it takes many years to dislodge them. Even after the Witness becomes noticeable, there may be areas that the consciousness avoids, partly because of ingrained habit, partly because it is so painful going there that fear holds us back. It takes patience and dedication in your practice to overcome these blocks. You will get there one day. In any case, it is better to keep trying than accept defeat.
quote:
Originally posted by FakeYogi
perhaps some conscious training of the mind, like one of the Buddhist methods might actually help.
Of course, it is perfectly natural to want to explore different avenues when you feel you've hit an obstacle on the road.
Perhaps a few things are worth considering:
Not all Buddhist schools are the same. There is in fact an ongoing discussion among Buddhists about what form of meditation one should develop first. Many Buddhists will tell you that a practitioner must start with concentration on an object (samatha) before mindfulness meditation (I suppose that is what you meant by "conscious training of the mind") can be effective. It makes sense: before you have developed some mental discipline, the monkey mind will drag you into mind stories and you will only be thinking thoughts with no Witness present.
AYP's mantra meditation gets around the concentration vs insight dichotomy. The procedure is such that we develop both within the same practice.
That is not to deter you from exploring alternatives to AYP's deep meditation. If you feel that you need to try other systems of practice, by all means look into other options. But be warned that vipassana styles of meditation will be a waste of time if you are inddied correct in your assumption that quote:
Originally posted by FakeYogi
I don't think I have a witness arisen in me.
For mindfulness meditation to work, there has to be some ability to abide in the Witness. Bear this in mind when exploring alternatives to AYP, if that is what you wish to do.
Good luck! |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Jul 31 2018 10:14:30 AM |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2018 : 09:17:42 AM
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Yesterday, I was reading an article about the defeats the athletes endure. They have to do it in front of the public. 32 teams went into the soccer world cup. 31 of them faced defeat. 128 people went into the Wimbledon draw. 127 of them tasted you know what. Even Roger Federor had to face it this time. Yet, they got to brush off repeated disappointments and strive for the next challenge.
Michael's reply to another poster in the forum might give you heart:
Jeff--Hey old buddy! Ah, the folly of youth! We seek instant gratification, but this path is life-long, or, if you prefer, MANY lives long. It begins where we are now (as in, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life") and never ends until we become one with the Ultimate. You are looking for "stillness in action, divine love, ecstatic conductivity, 24/7 bliss and kundalini energy" after only 2 years of practice--and, as you said in another post, a practice during which you have cut corners and not always gotten the full effect because of those cut corners. SO--this is a long, gradual and difficult path. It holds both tortuous uphill challenges as well as occasional setbacks and defeats. It makes demands on our time, energy, dedication and patience. Now the contrast--and we've had long talks about this. I've been doing my practices, fairly steadily, for 40 years. That would be 20 times longer than you. I spent 2 full years in ashram, doing practice hours and hours each day, not to mention many hours of darshan. I am still looking forward to all those things you desire. I'm looking at them from a different perspective, however. They do not just "pop up" suddenly and then stay as permanent features. They begin like mists after five, 10, 15, 20, 25 years. As your practices become the routine of your life, your life takes on deeper meaning--less of the "soul-crushing" you describe and more of dharmic harmony and balance. None of this is instant or easy. But the one thing we CAN be certain of is that we ARE, from the very beginning, developing a deeper and more intimate contact with our inner silence. As we begin, in 2 or 4 or 8 years, to stabilize this inner silence a little bit, we can begin to "use " it, as it were. We use it to better tune in to our intuition. We use it to make better decisions. We use it to help guide us to having better relationships. And this "using inner silence" is not even something we "do", it is not about doing, but about Being. The more time we spend in inner silence over the years, the more it becomes saturated throughout our entire life and the more the benefits of it percolate into our outer actions. Look less for answers or results and look more for your Self, just that. Where are You, Who are You? In silence exists your Self. From silence comes your Life. Stop looking and analyzing, questioning and wondering when it will all happen. It will happen when you least expect it. Stop being so oriented toward progress and results--that is an attachment, a yardstick which never helps. Relax and accept--which does not mean let your life go to hell. God DOES help those who help themselves, so action is always necessary. But the most successful action arises from silence. My regular experience of witnessing began in 1999, over 25 years into my practice, and my kundalini awakening took place in 2004, over 30 years after I began regular meditation practices. I believe that this is probably not unusual for householders in 21st century America holding jobs, paying mortgages and raising children. I look forward to 25 more years of similar awakening and growth, evolution and understanding. It's what we have to do in life, after all, just this, take care of our spiritual growth. It IS our life--we needn't finish it all in 2 years!
Namaste,
Michael
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2018 : 5:12:11 PM
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Just to clarify, jusmail, Fake Yogi has been doing AYP since 2006, so twelve years, but your overall response is good advice. I had no idea of your back story as your responses are often but one sentence; this thread has inspired expansion from you!  |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2018 : 12:10:16 PM
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Hi Dogboy,
My back story is not as dramatic as many others. I too started AYP in mid September 2014. BTW, your AYP anniversary 8/8 is coming up. So I was part of the SpiritualForums.com. One day, some kind soul posted the link to AYP lesson 10 or 13 (can't remember exactly). I was fascinated by the simple meditation technique. Since then, I have tried to follow the guidelines. Initially, I was in a bit of a hurry. But now I follow the set pattern. Physically, sometimes, I can feel a sensation like "sunburn from the inside" sort of. Otherwise, no other pyrotechniques so far. I know that this is the right path for me. |
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How long before Witness appears ?
