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compassion
90 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 12:53:43 PM
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Hello Everyone,
It's been a while and the practices have continued twice-daily. I am often doubting, though, if I am making any progress or simply stuck. Following the spiritual highs of some years ago, my life outside of practices now most closely resembles the following:
1. I enter some kind of depression and don't feel like doing anything. Or a new crisis arises
2. A short time later, the words come to me, I am journalling, sobbing, dealing with feelings of loneliness or despair, for example. Or a feeling that I just want to go home, despite there not being a suitable home for me anywhere. I beg God to give me what no one else can.
3. The clouds part, the depression lifts. Until the next one.
I like to think that the process is healing on quite a deep level, but I doubt regularly and wonder if I'm just getting caught up in some emotional gymnastics. Is this a normal part of the path? Or am I stuck in some desperate need of intervention? |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 2:06:08 PM
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Could be interventionist worth. I don't really know.
You still feel like you are schizophrenic? |
Edited by - lalow33 on Mar 05 2018 2:44:30 PM |
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 2:58:16 PM
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| I'm not sure I ever felt that I was schizophrenic. Where did that come from? :) |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 3:34:30 PM
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Hello compassion
quote:
Originally posted by compassion
It's been a while and the practices have continued twice-daily. I am often doubting, though, if I am making any progress or simply stuck.
It can feel like that sometimes - cleansing, cleansing, and 'am I ever going to get to the bottom of this dross?'
quote:
Originally posted by compassion
Or a feeling that I just want to go home, despite there not being a suitable home for me anywhere. I beg God to give me what no one else can.
I think I recognise here somebody desperate to arrive. When there is nothing to draw you into mixing with the world, bhakti can be so strong that it becomes difficult to self-pace. Make sure you do self-pace and ground. What do you do for grounding these days?
quote:
Originally posted by compassion
The clouds part, the depression lifts. Until the next one.
How long is it till "the next one" usually? And how is life in between the rough times? Do you notice any change over time? More silence, maybe some sense of contentment beginning to come through? |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Mar 05 2018 6:56:48 PM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 4:15:48 PM
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Sorry, compassion. I got you mixed up with a different poster. I'd like to blame it on old age, but I'm not that old. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2018 : 03:47:34 AM
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I do recognize your feelings compassion, this helped me (besides daily practice and grounding)
Is journaling helping you in this states of despair? I mean is it helping you to see where the emotions come from for instance?
In a state of begging god it might be helpful to surrender completely in the moment.
Are you practicing asana? Heart openers might help. This could be so simple as lay down with a stiff rolled up thick towel under your upper back (or use a yoga block and one under your head). The long rolled towel has to follow the spine. This way the shoulders could relax back and the heart area can open. Do this daily 5 till 10 minutes for some time, just relax/surrender into the pose and be aware of the breath in the breast and the relaxation of the shoulders. After that lay down some minutes without the roll.
From personal note, I had some moments of complete dispair during asana or meditation practice years ago. Surrendering into them was sobbing like a child, really sobbing out loud I mean. I stayed there until it stopped and out of nothing an incredible love flowed in. I wish I could write down how this feels. Now I can see these moments as turning points in the journey. The wall came down.  
www.aypsite.com/149.html
www.aypsite.org/392.html
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Edited by - Charliedog on Mar 06 2018 04:25:26 AM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2018 : 08:37:02 AM
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I second Blueraincoat - Self-pace and ground
Sey |
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2018 : 01:37:45 AM
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Thanks everyone :)
Blue:
For grounding, anything from exercise to playing with kids. I hadn't really thought of needing to ground or self-pace more, so thanks for the ideas. But it's not that I can't cope... I'm quite ok with the process (mostly), just wondering if this was a normal experience or if I was deluding myself that I was making any kind of progress.
Time between these... it might be a few days, or a week or two. And even then it's usual that the journalling/sobbing can go on for days. Not all day everyday or anything like that, maybe once or twice a day. In between the experiences (or at least after crying especially) there is a new optimism and energy to get things done. Also better sleep. It's a bit difficult to assess how things are on a longer time frame, because the next issue usually hits before long, so I have been a bit unsure if this is genuine progress or a temporary improvement in mood following some catharsis... hence the doubt.
lalow: It's ok, I wondered for a moment if I might have been posting without having any recollection of it :D
Charliedog: I think journalling really helps me to find a voice for where I am stuck. The tears usually accompany the words as they flow, and whatever depression (if that is the right word) that was there, usually lifts. So I get a good idea of what I feel despair about right now, that kind of thing. Whether that is the actual source of the feeling, I'm not sure.
Thanks for the asana tip. Actually I put the breaks on asana practice because I thought it might be causing these experiences to the detriment of the sitting practices. But now I've mostly been off asanas since the end of last year, and this process still continues, so I think it must be more driven by sitting. I did roll up a towel yesterday though, and i'll do the same today. Oh perhaps also to mention that my ribs/sternum pop quite often when I stretch, especially after a deep sob. They have been doing this now for a couple of years, I think. so I think something might be changing in there.
Thank you also for your personal note. It's reassuring to know this is a journey travelled by others. The knee-jerk reaction is to act on the feelings, e.g. we feel lonely, we call a friend or find a new one, or something, and I'm not the only one to think I am sometimes crazy when I choose to fully explore and to feel that feeling, instead of doing everything I can to silence it. Does that make sense? to be fair though, I've struggled long enough trying to react to feelings that way, and seems every attempt is thwarted... I'm not to have a comfortable life!
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2018 : 05:57:24 AM
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Hi compassion
It sounds like progress to me. The mood cycles usually indicate releases and purification.
As long as you carry on with you practice, self-pacing accordingly of course, there is no reason to doubt.
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Blanche
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2018 : 07:32:02 AM
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Hi Compassion,
I agree with Blue: You are making progress. One of the most challenging things on the spiritual path is the doubt: Am I making any progress? Is anything there? Am I deluding myself? etc. It is the mind speaking, trying to keep the control. When we look deeper, there is a knowing of an Eternal Truth, and we can hear its calling.
It is also helpful to sit with your despair, get closer to it, take a good look, and inquire: "What is this? Where is it coming from? What are you [this feeling] trying to tell me?" It could be a release of an older experience that works itself up to awareness to complete its cycle, or it can be something new. Whatever it is, staying with it is the fastest way to release it.
For example, last year I started to feel suddenly down, without any apparent cause. When I had a good look at the feeling, it became clear that it was coming from outside - my teenage daughter was applying to colleges, and she was feeling stressed. It was helpful to know this, as I could provide more support to my daughter.
Some discomfort showed up again recently. When explored, it became apparent that I was supposed to be more actively involved in the community. Once I started to act in this direction, the discomfort eased up.
Whatver it is, it is transitory. While exploring these feeling, take also time to nourish your wellbeing: socialize every day, talk with your friends,sleep enough, walk in nature, exercise, eat fresh fruit and veggies, volunteer, have a hobby, learn or do something interesting.
Warm wishes |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2018 : 09:10:25 AM
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Hi compassion,
Great if journalling helps you, for me it was eyeopening. The popping in the chest area you mentioned is a good sign, increased flexibility. Wishing you a smoother journey |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2018 : 10:24:30 AM
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Hi Compassion,
You've received good advice. Agree with all of them. Self-pace if there is too much friction.
In the meantime, as Rumi said "Live Life as If Everything Is Rigged in Your Favor".
Things will get better. They always do.
Much Love & Hugs
Sunyata
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2018 : 10:38:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
"as If Everything Is Rigged in Your Favor".
It is, isn't it? 
Everything works towards bringing us home. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2018 : 10:45:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
"as If Everything Is Rigged in Your Favor".
It is, isn't it?
Everything works towards bringing us home.
Yes, Blue. How can it be any other way? |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2018 : 11:04:41 AM
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Compassion,
I went through this with fear. I did get help when I had to. I decided to finally just sit through it. It wasn't once then I was done. Many months of sitting through it, and I went for help again (energy help) which did help.
There are still things that can make me afraid.
What I want to say is I believe as you believe that you are a bit stuck. You have the ability to change your attention. Not really in avoidance, just more balanced.
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Dogboy
USA
2296 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2018 : 8:40:48 PM
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| Balanced attention/intention |
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2018 : 02:45:02 AM
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Thank you, Everyone, again for your wisdom and support :)
One thing that has lead to some doubt, is that I have had the expectation (indeed have heard/read the words many times) that as one finds more silence, one becomes able to let go of issues into silence. There was a time some years ago when there was such a pervading silence, but the course of the last few years has been much more releasing in terms of tears, accompanied by less silence. People talk of stories and not getting caught up in them, yet the releases I experience are accompanied by words that were never said, stories that were never realised. It has been often heartbreaking, as I mentioned before, and I know/understand much more about my life up until this point than I ever did. So I just wonder if I have been focusing efforts in the wrong direction, getting caught up in a process that isn't helping.
Having said that, the moment I try to inquire about an uncomfortable feeling that I can't make sense of, I only get silence. So I haven't found the self-inquiry to be particularly helpful in all this... or perhaps I am applying it incorrectly. Or perhaps it's just an issue I'm not ready to deal with yet. I just sit with the feeling and avoid acting upon it as best I can. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2018 : 05:20:11 AM
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quote:
the moment I try to inquire about an uncomfortable feeling that I can't make sense of, I only get silence.
What is there more to find ? If we can see there is only silence it will become easier to see that the mind-stories are what they are, stories on a screen of silence. To see this and to realize it can give us feelings of aloneness, it might be different then we had expected. You can read this back in your own words. This phase can give us feelings of unhappiness, emptiness, aloneness, we were so used to identify with emotions/thoughts that it is like we are lost.
Did you read lesson 392 linked above?
Perhaps the eternal has manifested as the universe for some company, creating the illusion (maya) so the play of duality (lila) can happen. Seeing both sides at the same time is strange, isn't it? You are this and you are that. It is a transitional experience, a shifting perspective from dual to non-dual point of view. What experience on the path is not a shifting perspective? This interim stage shall pass like all the others have.
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Edited by - Charliedog on Mar 11 2018 09:34:52 AM |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2018 : 12:16:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by compassion
Thank you, Everyone, again for your wisdom and support :)
One thing that has lead to some doubt, is that I have had the expectation (indeed have heard/read the words many times) that as one finds more silence, one becomes able to let go of issues into silence. There was a time some years ago when there was such a pervading silence, but the course of the last few years has been much more releasing in terms of tears, accompanied by less silence. People talk of stories and not getting caught up in them, yet the releases I experience are accompanied by words that were never said, stories that were never realised. It has been often heartbreaking, as I mentioned before, and I know/understand much more about my life up until this point than I ever did. So I just wonder if I have been focusing efforts in the wrong direction, getting caught up in a process that isn't helping.
Spiritual path is often compared to peeling an onion. Layers and layers that has to be seen through. Evolution happens regardless and it's part of our existence here. However, when we employ spiritual practices we are on the fast track. Sometimes there is a lot of friction experienced. So we self-pace if it's too much.
What if we let the rawness of that feeling pass through us-It's just energy. With practice we can allow without adding stories to it. We'll get there. Then we can fully live our lives and we become like the sun always shining through our pain and pleasure. As Ramana Maharishi said- "The Sun is simply bright. It does not correct anyone. Because it shines, the whole world is full of light".
You have created an idea of what spiritual path should be. When you brush your teeth twice daily, do you worry if your teeth is really as white as the tooth paste commercial is telling you. I'm assuming you brush your teeth and go about your business. Treat spiritual practices the same way. Don't try to micro manage it. This only adds to suffering. It's working trust it!
Be gentle and kind to yourself. Be mindful of what you are saying to yourself. It's human to feel the way you're feeling. You are doing great!
quote:
Having said that, the moment I try to inquire about an uncomfortable feeling that I can't make sense of, I only get silence.
This it it! All there is this moment, this breath, this action. Everything else is mind chatter.
Much Love & Hugs
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Edited by - sunyata on Mar 11 2018 12:32:34 PM |
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Blanche
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2018 : 07:37:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
You have created an idea of what spiritual path should be. When you brush your teeth twice daily, do you worry if your teeth is really as white as the tooth paste commercial is telling you. I'm assuming you brush your teeth and go about your business. Treat spiritual practices the same way. Don't try to micro manage it. This only adds to suffering. It's working trust it!
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2018 : 11:18:27 AM
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| I agree with the other gals. Inquiry and getting only silence is it. |
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Chard
250 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2018 : 12:50:55 AM
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Hi Compassion! thank u so much for your posting. I’m sorry I haven’t been able to read entire thread apart from your original posting but I’ll respond to your original posting-...I can really identify myself with it. Sounds like you are experiencing what I understand as “Dark Nights of the Soul”- spiritual cleansing.
When I’m having a DNS I remind myself that the great sages like Mother Theresa, Jesus, St John of the Cross (characters of all different traditions even though I’m just naming Christian ones) have all experienced sitting in darkness where there is no light- begging God to fill every cell of their body.
I find after i have a DNS that something within me has gotten cleansed or lifted and i do feel more clear even if I don’t know what I’ve cleared. We are all spiritual warriors on this forum and sometimes I feel like I’m clearing beyond just my own karma- and we all are in this process doing that as we cleanse-as we are all connected souls.
So Compassion I bow to you. You are a spiritual warrior. Let go into these dark moments and have faith that all is well and will be well. You are on the path.
This was a poignant posting for me to read because this past year I’ve been experiencing very deep cleansing and purification. I’m reminded that healing is a process. We often as humans want to be healed but don’t want to sit in the process.
Well that was a long response! So with compassion, I send you compassion, Compassion:)!
With Love, C |
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2018 : 04:40:25 AM
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Hello again, thanks for your posts above that I never replied to. Actually got hit by more procrastination/depression than usual, and then some challenging events in everyday life.
Firstly, I suppose I never considered the silence to be 'it'... I still suffer, lose sleep, etc. And perhaps that is because I haven't always allowed myself to fully open to a feeling, but I suppose I had hoped to be free of some of these things... I'm not sure I understand the point of self-enquiry if the response is only silence.
The last few weeks, as I said, there have been challenges in everyday life. There has been a familiar pattern of procrastination or depression, some kind of emotional release, then energy/motivation to act in preparation of these events. But then following the challenging event, falling into a pit of meaninglessness and despair. Earlier this week, for one reason or another, got almost everything on my 'to do' list done. It was quite a remarkable feat, with profound energy and enthusiasm that didn't leave me tired afterwards. But I realised at the bottom on the to-do list was meaninglessness and despair... I think I'd used the unfinished tasks to feel the (easier) guilt, than this existential stuff that I can do nothing about.
At the same time, I lost the motivation to meditate. the other week, for the first time in years, I didn't meditate for quite a few days. Then the same thing happened this week. Both times, the meaninglessness of everything was overwhelming. I couldn't see any point to spiritual practices, to anything really. In the end I did meditate, and then found it easier to watch this despair instead of getting caught up in it. But does anyone have any similar experiences? To feel this loathing of existence, the pointlessness of it all.. to lose even the motivation to meditate, which had been so sacred before. I have been through a lot the last few years, and I have always held that meditation will make everything ok. that no matter how bad things get, just keep meditating and it'll be alright in the end. Perhaps part of what I'm learning is that meditation doesn't have any direct impact on the outside world... in fact, seems to have the opposite. Perhaps the despair is a genuine realisation that meditation is hopeless, at least in terms of what I had hoped it would bring for me and my family. There isn't some 'deal' with God, that everything will be 'ok' if I meditate everyday.
And I think I touched upon being tired and exhausted, because it seems so far to go. I understand enlightenment is a process, rather than an event or sudden happening. How is it with freedom from suffering? Is it possible to be completely free, even when purification is ongoing? Or is freedom only directly correlated with the purification process? Can progress towards freedom be measured, for example, by muscle flexibility? I don't practise asana regularly, and I'm far from putting legs behind head or seeing the back wall in upward-facing dog. Is that a reliable indicator that I still have many years/decades of sh*t-storms to go? |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2018 : 06:17:54 AM
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Dear Compassion
A spot of reassurance first:
quote:
Originally posted by compassion
I had hoped to be free of some of these things... I'm not sure I understand the point of self-enquiry if the response is only silence.
Yes, it it freedom, but not in the way you think.
Keep practising. You are getting there. You will soon drop the 'only' from 'silence'.
quote:
Originally posted by compassion
But I realised at the bottom on the to-do list was meaninglessness and despair...
I had an flashback while reading this:
When I was a child, I had these strange, very strange, moments of depression at the end of school terms. I didn't especially like going to school. Holidays were magic. I was extremely lucky to have my grandparents living in the countryside. There were acres of gardens, pasture, woods. Holidays were the most wonderful times, roaming outdoors all day, playing with animals, it was nothing short of paradise. And yet, a feeling of emptiness and sadness came over me while walking away from school, satchel on my back, on the last day of the term. A feeling of utter pointlessness. Why was I not rejoicing at the prospect of my regained freedom? It's hard to place it precisely in time, I think I first noticed it in my early teens. It happened more than once, because I remember thinking - "Ah, it's that feeling again. What is it about? It doesn't make any sense."
I will resist the temptation to explain it. I will only say:
This is a step in your journey. The mind is facing the fact that it has been entertaining a delusion. It entertained the belief that it was standing on something solid and there is, in fact, nothing there. Scary stuff!
quote:
Originally posted by compassion
Is it possible to be completely free, even when purification is ongoing? Or is freedom only directly correlated with the purification process?
You can be almost free. Even at difficult times of purification, you will begin to know the clouds are passing; sooner or later they will be gone.
quote:
Originally posted by compassion
Can progress towards freedom be measured, for example, by muscle flexibility? I don't practise asana regularly, and I'm far from putting legs behind head or seeing the back wall in upward-facing dog. Is that a reliable indicator that I still have many years/decades of sh*t-storms to go?
No, bodily flexibility is not an indicator. But asanas can help you smooth out the energy at times when it is making you uncomfortable. So can long walks and light exercise outdoors. Are you grounding yourself enough these days?
All the best |
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Dogboy
USA
2296 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2018 : 2:12:33 PM
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quote:
"At the same time, I lost the motivation to meditate. the other week, for the first time in years, I didn't meditate for quite a few days. Then the same thing happened this week. Both times, the meaninglessness of everything was overwhelming. I couldn't see any point to spiritual practices, to anything really. In the end I did meditate, and then found it easier to watch this despair instead of getting caught up in it..."
..."Perhaps part of what I'm learning is that meditation doesn't have any direct impact on the outside world, in fact, seems to have the opposite. Perhaps the despair is a genuine realisation that meditation is hopeless, at least in terms of what I had hoped it would bring for me and my family. There isn't some 'deal' with God, that everything will be 'ok' if I meditate everyday."
Seems to me a great reason to continue practice if it's easier on you to witness despair than get caught up in it. Meditation indeed is interior; by soaking in silence and opening nadis, this silence comes forth into your outer world in subtle ways. Do you really believe that your practice does not benefit those around you? I know your despair is not of any benefit.
Your practice is hardly hopeless, that's your mind expressing despair by getting "caught up in it" and painting your life with the same brush. By witnessing this troubled phase you find yourself in, within and outside of your practice, you blunt its impact, perhaps provides you with insight not found while caught up. With all the chaos of our modern "outside" world, bring forth silence equipts us with a buffer to counterbalance it, as good a reason as any to just meditate regardless, whether you want to or not.
I would self pace your practice for sure while you are in this rut, you could be undergoing strong purification. If you are on prescriptions, keep taking them. Ground, ground, ground. Meditation is not your magic pill, but it is a tool you should use to get through this. You have a better chance with it than without it. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2018 : 11:06:25 AM
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Hello compassion,
If you aren't into silence, go out into the world and look at what you see while you are depressed. Look at living things, not things you gotta do.
When you are not depressed, go out into the world and look at what you see.
P.S. What type of music or movies or tv shows are your attention drawn towards? Look at it as a curiosity, not a judgement.
The best advice is to self-pace. My advice is for if it comes up again.
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Edited by - lalow33 on May 14 2018 11:19:04 AM |
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