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JJJ
43 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 02 2018 : 1:39:42 PM
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Hi
I could not find answer in lessons so I want to ask you:
during deep meditation we favor the mantra, when there are some other emotions not too strong in the background we just favor the mantra, but when they are too strong we bring our attention, observe as a witness, let them be and let them go and then we can go back to mantra again right?
- what about this part when we favor a mantra when we are having some mild emotions in the background - isn't this like supressing or avoiding emotions?there is a danger that we are going to force the mantra even if there are emotions and usually there will be something
-second question - what about too much kundalini energy during DM - is procedure the same as with emotions and thoughts ? we just favor the mantra when kundalini is strong, or we look (witness) into kundalini energy? I don't think it is going to work the same as with emotions , because it will not just pass away, so what to do?
can you please give me exact answer on these specific question? |
Edited by - JJJ on Mar 02 2018 1:40:09 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2018 : 3:24:00 PM
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Hi JJJ,
In general, whenever you notice that you are off the mantra, you easily favour the mantra again with your attention. That does not mean that you need to push anything away, or suppress anything. It simply means that most of your attention (more than 50%) will be with the mantra. Other things can be going on in the background, such as emotions, but we are easily favouring the mantra with our attention. Emotions are impermanent and will pass.
The exception to this is if you are experiencing anything that is overwhelming or overpowering, to the extent that it is would be very difficult to come back to the mantra. In that case, as described in lesson 15, you stay with the overpowering sensation and gently witness it, until it subsides. Then you can easily favour the mantra again. For most meditators, who have gotten past the early clunky stages of meditation, this will happen very rarely.
The same would hold true for kundalini symptoms. Kundalini symptoms will either be not-overpowering, in which case the mantra is favoured with the attention, or they will be overpowering, in which case the procedure in lesson 15 is resorted to, until they pass. Kundalini symptoms will pass eventually, just like any other aspect of nature.
The only difference with kundalini symptoms, is that if we suspect that the overpowering sensation is being caused by an excess of energy in the body, we would self-pace accordingly and take extra measures to remain grounded outside of practices. That could mean removing the last practice we added for example, or cutting back on practice time, or both if necessary.
Christi |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2018 : 3:26:04 PM
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This from Lesson 13:
"We don't try to control the mind. Meditation is not about making a big effort to concentrate continually on the mantra. We just easily favor the mantra when we notice we have gone off it. No forcing. No judgment. No analysis. That's all."
This from Lesson 15:
"Letting go of thinking the mantra during meditation does not mean doing that whenever we sense a little effort in it. It means letting go when picking up the mantra is difficult and uncomfortable due to strong thoughts and/or a strong physical sensation in the body, as discussed in the above Lesson 15. Laying off the mantra and allowing the attention to be drawn to a strong overwhelming sensation is an exception to normal practice, an additional technique we use when we'd can't think the mantra without straining.
We do not use this additional technique whenever there may a little bit of effort picking up the mantra. If that were the case, many may be inclined to not pick up the mantra at all, because there is a little effort in it. Doing a little something to ease back to the mantra when we notice we are off it is what mantra meditation is. Easy and effortlessness does not mean perpetually doing nothing.
If the mantra were a mountain and the mountain is not coming to us, then we can do a little something to go to the mountain. If we encounter a strong, seemingly insurmountable and uncomfortable obstruction in the neurobiology while doing that, then we can let it go for a few minutes, allowing the obstruction to dissolve naturally in the innocent gaze of awareness. Not focused awareness, but innocent gaze that has been drawn by the strong sensation itself. That is when we let go, not every time we perceive that we are having other thoughts or sensations, doing a little something to pick up the mantra. It is a fine point and an important one."
So far as strong energy during DM, treat it the same as thoughts: continue favoring the mantra. If it is too strong to do so and/or borders on discomfort, consider ending that session and resting. It's okay to cut a session short without worry of "set back", in fact is wise as you are self pacing. Energy is there, no need to try suppressing as that will not work; whatever we place our attention on gets stronger, so that is why the mantra is favored over all else going on.
Hope this helps! |
Edited by - Dogboy on Mar 02 2018 3:28:07 PM |
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JJJ
43 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2018 : 4:00:00 PM
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dogboy,christi
thank you very much for quick answers- that is very helpful.
I want only to precise more specific what to do during DM when the energy is too much during DM- I am not talking about kundalini symptons like pain,lights etc., but about too much flow of energy which can be felt as pure anxiety - if I put my awareness to this energy ( as I would do with emotions or thoughts) then the result can be not subsiding of the energy, but in fact enhancing the energy , right or am I wrong? so what exactly should I do ( just end this session of DM, lay back, do any specific exercise to calm it down or put awareness to this( this is most likely right?))
grounding after DM and self pacing is obiovus here, but my question is what to do during DM
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Edited by - JJJ on Mar 02 2018 4:04:23 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2018 : 5:05:17 PM
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Hi JJJ,
Yes, you are right. There are certain energetic symptoms caused by kundalini, which can be aggravated by bringing the attention to them.
If the symptoms are pleasant or neutral, but are overpowering to the extent that you are not able to come back to the mantra, then the lesson 15 procedure would be used. An example of this would be overwhelming ecstasy.
If you are experiencing symptoms which are unpleasant or painful, which are so powerful that you cannot come back to the mantra, and which are being caused by kundalini, then you really have two choices. The first choice would be to use the procedure in lesson 15, and the second option would be to end the session early (self-pacing). It would be your call.
I remember being on a meditation retreat about 28 years ago and experiencing very severe pain in my lower back. It was so severe that I could hardly walk, or sit and was not able to bring my attention to the object of meditation at all. It became gradually worse over the first few days, and by day three I felt that I needed to either leave the retreat, or to do something heroic. 
So I decided that for the next meditation session, I would only meditate on the pain. The sittings lasted for an hour. As I began sitting the pain was already severe. As I rested my attention with it, it became worse, and then much worse, to the point of being agony. I sat with it, and noticed after a while that instead of being in just one place, as I had previously thought, it was actually in three places, very close together on my spine. Then after more time of gently observing the pain, I noticed that instead of being a constant pain, it was "pulsating" with my heartbeat. It was not there all the time, but was coming and going. I also noticed that instead of pushing the pain away as I had been doing, the more I rested my attention with it, the more I was able to accept it as it was. By doing that, the pain eased, and in fact became less of a pain (a thing resisted) and more of a simple sensation, coming and going.
After that, my centre of attention moved in my body to the point where the pain had been along my spine. I was able to hear the blood flowing through the aorta that runs alongside the lower spine. Before then, I had not even known that there was an aorta next to the spine. I was able to hear the lungs filling with air above me, making an overpowering "crashing" sound as they filled up and then emptied every few seconds. When the bell went at the end of the meditation I was able to get up and walk away, completely pain free and have never felt that pain since.
So that is an example of how a severe pain, caused by kundalini, can be cleared, simply by resting the attention with the pain. And it can happen, even though the pain initially became worse through using that technique.
Not every unpleasant or painful symptom will respond in this way. Some would simply become worse with attention and remain worse. Painful symptoms at the ajna chakra, or crown chakra for example, could simply become more painful and remain more painful with attention brought to them. So in those cases, it would be a case of backing off and self-pacing as necessary.
After a while, you will get a feel for what sensations will dissolve with attention, and which to back away from. I would say, if in doubt, back off. Meditation does not need to be a great heroic effort, or psychological endurance test.  It is a long journey, so you need to save yourself for greater challenges that come along. Gradually, all energetic blockages will dissolve, without any great heroics involved. Time and persistence, are the most useful tools in the toolbox.
Christi
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JJJ
43 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2018 : 6:04:57 PM
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Thank you Christi
some time ago I had this feeling that kundalini energy was very strong and I felt huge anxiety or rather it was panic attack like I was about to faint. Should I back off in this situation or rather put awerness to this? If I put the awerness and relax there is huge possibility that energy will be even stronger and overwhelimng , but isn't this on the other hand a huge chance to heal something big if I go into? isn't this a fact that I will have to go back to this on some point to face it anyway? If I back off I avoid the chance to heal it - and fear of fainting was one of my main fears since childhood when I fainted couple of times. Now when I am in panic state I have this feeling, but maybe this is a call to heal this fear that was with me for so long? |
Edited by - JJJ on Mar 02 2018 6:16:15 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2018 : 6:26:53 PM
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Hi JJJ,
As I mentioned above, it is really your call. It depends to a large extent on the degree to which you have cultivated the witness. If you are able to simply rest your awareness, with the sensation of anxiety and let it be what it will be, without any attachment or aversion, then the sensation can simply dissolve. If the witness is not present, and you find yourself creating mind stories about the anxiety, then it could become stronger. Who would want to meditate in that situation? In that case you would self-pace your practice. Self-pacing can happen within a session, as well as for practice sessions in general.
As for fainting, would it really be a big deal if it happened? If you are sitting in meditation, on the floor, or on a bed, you don't have far to fall! You can make sure you have some cushions around you, so you won't hurt yourself.
You may actually find that if you faint, you don't actually fall at all. You may find that when you come around, you are still sitting in the same position as you were in before you fainted. Sometimes the mind can create a fear which has no actual basis in reality. The real fear, is usually the fear of surrender (yajna), and the mind and body can create a hundred strategies to avoid having to actually surrender into reality.
Trusting the process of meditation is important (shraddha).
Christi |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2018 : 11:32:10 PM
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My experience,
Whatever you self pace to avoid will still be experienced. I'm not sure that's everyone's experience, but pretty sure at this point.
I guess I had a naive view that meditation will take care of everything, and we can all hold hands and love everyone, blah, blah.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 04 2018 : 05:44:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
My experience,
Whatever you self pace to avoid will still be experienced. I'm not sure that's everyone's experience, but pretty sure at this point.
I guess I had a naive view that meditation will take care of everything, and we can all hold hands and love everyone, blah, blah.
Hi Lalow,
It is true that we need to go through whatever we need to, eventually. But by pacing the journey carefully, we can go through things when we are ready to. It is a lot easier that way.
Meditation is only one of the tools in the Yogic toolbox. Some people can go all the way in with meditation alone, but they are rare. Most of us need to make use of all of the tools in the toolbox. Or at least, the majority of them, at some point. 
Christi |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 07:21:12 AM
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Hi Christi,
Thank you for sharing your experience and insight in dealing with pain. Very nice description. I have very similar experiences with pain and discomfort: Directing the attention gently toward them and inquiring about their meaning result eventually in some kind of answer and a release of pain and discomfort. The answer is almost never something that the mind would think - the answer comes as a surprise, a lesson, an insight. It does seem that pain and discomfort are ways for the body/mind to communicate and get my attention. The process is not always fast - it might take days, weeks, months, or even years. When the message is received, the discomfort completes its purpose and goes away. I find it helpful to know that whatever it is, it is transitory.
Blanche |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2018 : 08:13:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
Hi Christi,
Thank you for sharing your experience and insight in dealing with pain. Very nice description. I have very similar experiences with pain and discomfort: Directing the attention gently toward them and inquiring about their meaning result eventually in some kind of answer and a release of pain and discomfort. The answer is almost never something that the mind would think - the answer comes as a surprise, a lesson, an insight. It does seem that pain and discomfort are ways for the body/mind to communicate and get my attention. The process is not always fast - it might take days, weeks, months, or even years. When the message is received, the discomfort completes its purpose and goes away. I find it helpful to know that whatever it is, it is transitory.
Blanche
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2018 : 05:18:09 AM
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JJJ
43 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2018 : 10:07:24 AM
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I just found another answer to questions I asked above in additions to lessons, if someone is interested
90.1 - Whipping Movements - Ida, Pingala and Kundalini |
Edited by - JJJ on Mar 09 2018 12:10:00 PM |
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deep meditation
