|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Chard
250 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 05 2017 : 12:08:35 AM
|
Hi All,
So I'm focusing on sex being an extension of my spiritual practice for me and I'm finding that although there has been so much sexual energy within me that when I do release it, it's just not helpful and is depleting- as we all know. Yet I'm finding it hard to bring all of it upward and there's still at least a bit of a release. Am I focusing on tracing the spine and curving and ending at the 3rd eye like spinal breathing? Perhaps I need to start it earlier on in foreplay? Doesn't seem like I'm mastering it too well.
Also another question while I'm on the topic that keeps nagging me... I've noticed since I've had the resurgence of kundalini energy in April that the nature of my orgasms are in fact vaginal ejaculations rather than your classic orgasm almost as if the substance is not merely vaginal but a full-body release. The liquid substance has different qualities. The first time it happened I was in awe that this could happen to women as opposed to merely men. Has anyone experienced this? I assumed it was related to kundalini?
Not exactly your cocktail party conversation, lol!!
Thank God I can ask these questions here!!
 C
|
|
|
Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2017 : 03:54:20 AM
|
Hi chard,
It is a proces and will change over time from sexual to spiritual. Take care and self-pace accordingly. Reading the tantra lessons will give the insights needed.
From lesson 15: Solo masturbation could also be explored in tantric mode, if you are already inclined toward it. In that case, when you masturbate, see if you can develop a habit of staying in front of orgasm using the solo version of the holdback method. With all this, in time, your desire for lustful pleasure will lose some of its luster. That is because the inner spiritual pleasure will be coming up more and more, and it is very satisfying, not just for the moment, but ongoing day and night.
A strong libido is actually a great advantage in spiritual practices, assuming you can bring some discipline to your stimulative practices. That is really the key. Passion with a purpose, you know. You will know you are making progress when you can just be aroused without having to go to climax. It takes time. Siddhasana is a great practice for cultivating that mode of constant stimulation without expectations. The "bucking bronco" of siddhasana will settle down eventually. Then you will find ecstatic bliss trickling up and down all through you. Lustful pleasures will seem a small thing then, and will slip from consciousness during yogic sexual stimulation, and in regular daily activity as well. Yogani
 |
 |
|
|
capucine
France
66 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2017 : 05:44:47 AM
|
Hi Chard,
I feel concerned with your post because I have the same problem, how to well manage the sexual energy.
During a meditation, I had an energy release in February and since, my sexual energy increased a lot. Before to know aypsite, I had no satisfying solution excepted small orgasm time to time when I had really too much pressure.
In August, with aypsite, I began spinal breathing added before meditation and it helped sexual energy to go upward. I had a blockage at coccyx, but with time and spinal breathing, it disappeared. Since some weeks, I had siddhasana (not during all meditation time because it’s very powerful and I go slowly to self-pace). This practice is incredibly powerful to bring upward the sexual energy. For me, it’s really THE solution I was looking for. Now I don’t feel the needed to have classic orgasm to release sexual pressure. If I try to arouse myself (not too much) to have a classical orgasm, it just goes somewhere upward.
In fact, I don’t know if the most useful is spinal breathing or siddhasana or meditation or the three together. Do you practice siddhasana ?
For another question, I’ve never experienced it!
|
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2017 : 07:04:07 AM
|
HI Chard
quote:
Originally posted by Chard
I've noticed since I've had the resurgence of kundalini energy in April that the nature of my orgasms are in fact vaginal ejaculations rather than your classic orgasm almost as if the substance is not merely vaginal but a full-body release.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to these. The real loss of energy in a woman is through her monthly cycle. Every month the womb builds up a new lining, which is then thrown out with a significant loss of blood and the whole process starts over and over. The tantric techniques men use e.g. blocking are of course no use to us. There is a technique called the deer exercise (there is a long thread about it somewhere on this forum). What I personally found out was that the periods get lighter and then disappear when the system can integrate all sexual energy. If the system is not ready, the deer exercise causes massive overload. The same experience men have with abstinence. The moral is that we need to carry on with purifying the system, then brahmacharya will happen naturally.
Happy practice! |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Dec 05 2017 07:05:20 AM |
|
|
|
Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2017 : 6:59:30 PM
|
quote:
So I'm focusing on sex being an extension of my spiritual practice for me and I'm finding that although there has been so much sexual energy within me that when I do release it, it's just not helpful and is depleting- as we all know. Yet I'm finding it hard to bring all of it upward and there's still at least a bit of a release. Am I focusing on tracing the spine and curving and ending at the 3rd eye like spinal breathing? Perhaps I need to start it earlier on in foreplay? Doesn't seem like I'm mastering it too well.
Siddhasana, SBP, brahmacharya, and tracing the shushumna all work toward sexual energy moving upward. As Blue mentions your practice eventually makes it automatic. I know this is so because the action has become a physical sensation, in meditation as well as sexual arousal. It has become a taste in my nasal passages. In arousal allow the energy through the third eye, and even from your Solar Center rather than "hoarding it inward", a surrender, both doing/not doing.
I love what Yogani states in the excerpt Charliedog posted: passion with a purpose. That yoga intertwined with sexual arousal purifies my system, that I may be closer to realizing Self just by opening and "surfing the sexy" is a life affirming revelation! I treat arousal as an ember encouraged by gentle attention and appreciated, an ongoing condition of various intensity in moments of the day. Arousal alone is my endgame.
Having said that, one should allow for an occasional release, a reboot, without shame, frustration, or negativity. It's all good, knowing I'm wired for the long term.  |
Edited by - Dogboy on Dec 05 2017 7:01:26 PM |
|
|
|
sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2017 : 3:19:28 PM
|
Hi Chard,
Good advice from all.
I've started a thread in Plus titled : Effects of spiritual practices on monthly cycles.
I started with sitting practices in AYP. I was not interested in Tantra. But as we know spiritual practices affects all aspects of life. When I started to notice changes in the body that is when I dove into reading the Tantra lessons.
Yes, multiple orgasm is depleting. Preservation and cultivation of the energy is most effective. Charliedog has already pointed to the lessons. The experience here is energy follows the breath without using any techniques (i.e Spinal breathing), just letting it rise it's natural way.
And as Blue mentioned, you will start noticing it's affects on your cycles if you haven't already done so.
Second Dogboy- Take it easy.You have a lot going on at the moment. Self-pace when needed.
Hope this helps.
|
Edited by - sunyata on Dec 06 2017 3:20:55 PM |
|
|
|
Chard
250 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 12:47:22 AM
|
Great responses everyone! Thank you so much!
CharlieDog, Good suggestion about getting in front of orgasm. I was able to get in front of the orgasm the other day more successfully and really brought the energy up and felt the ecstatic bliss all around my body. I've done a few tantra workshops w my husband in the past and you see people having whole body orgasms and it's like their whole body starts to spasm... I don't know the word for it but perhaps you know what I mean. But I noticed that happening for the second time the other day. I think it was because I get in front of orgasm and started breathing earlier. I wasn't left depleted but felt more radiant after. Not sure if that all makes sense...
Hi Capucine/Dogboy, Yes I keep hearing about siddhasana, but I assume pple mean practicing siddasana during meditation and not during sex obviously (that would be difficult wouldn't it!) I'm also a bit confused... so I know that I really need to be grounding myself alot right now and I wouldn't doing spinal breathing and siddhasana be less grounding. Although there's been alot of sexual arousal there's also a feeling of ungroundedness, so do I really want to be bringing energy up? Sorry, confused here...
Blueraincoat/Sunyata, I haven't noticed any changes in my cycles in general related to spiritual practices and any mood shifts and physical changes are not ever related to my cycle- I've always considered myself lucky in that realm!
Thank you all for your responses!! C |
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 05:33:56 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chard
I haven't noticed any changes in my cycles in general related to spiritual practices
It will happen with practice and time.
This is less charted territory than male yogi's sexuality simply because historically there have been fewer women yogis and they have not written on this topic.
What is written about men's tantric sex is hardy applicable to us. For women there is no end point, no climax. I don't see that the hold back method makes any sense to us. Women do not lose energy through intercourse, but through menstruation.
It does of course matter where you direct the energy. A lot of focus on svadhisthana chakra without lifting the energy towards higher centres will cause more energy to 'leak' into sexuality. On the other hand, directing the flow of energy upwards has to be self paced, as every yogi and yogini knows only too well. Brahmacharya is not attained in one day - that is as true for women as for men. At energetic level both sexes are the same, but not in our sexual bodily functions. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Dec 11 2017 07:11:58 AM |
|
|
|
Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 07:54:26 AM
|
Hi Chard,
Quote BlueRaincoat,
quote:
For women there is no end point, no climax.
I do not agree in this with Blue, women can have a climax, the climax is in swadistane. After this we are not depleted but radiant. If it is this way we can practice to stay in front of orgasm and lead the energy upwards (bramacharya)
Maybe some women are born natural bramacharya but not all of us.
Quote chard,
quote:
I don't know the word for it but perhaps you know what I mean. But I noticed that happening for the second time the other day. I think it was because I get in front of orgasm and started breathing earlier. I wasn't left depleted but felt more radiant after. Not sure if that all makes sense...
Yes to me it make sense, it is a proces and not an overnight happening to lead the energy upwards. It is powerful and not allowing yourself can lead to overload, so practice wisely and stop on time. Allowing yourself to late will lead to overload or depleting afterwards.
Keep breathing and relax. It is a not doing, it is an allowing to let the energy rise, and this works the same way as siddhasana in meditation.
This is a powerful energetic practice so if you do not feel grounded at this moment this could be the reason. Self-pace and ground.
When further in the proces sexual orgasm will change in divinity, we can have orgasms all over in balance, or no orgasms at all because we don't need them anymore. Life becomes divine.
The most important is to develop inner silence by two times a day meditation, you need balance.
https://www.aypsite.org/T45.html
https://www.aypsite.org/T62.html
PS: After reading the lessons of Yogani, I personally found there is not so much difference between male and female experiences, so read along  |
Edited by - Charliedog on Dec 11 2017 09:49:33 AM |
|
|
|
sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 08:51:59 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
I don't see that the hold back method makes any sense to us. Women do not lose energy through intercourse, but through menstruation.
Hi Blue,
It is true that the loss of energy through monthly cycles is much higher than intercourse (non tantric). But, I would say that Brahmacharya is as important for women as it is for men for spiritual advancement.
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
the climax is in swadistane. After this we are not depleted but radiant. If it is this way we can practice to stay in front of orgasm and lead the energy upwards (bramacharya)
Yes.
|
Edited by - sunyata on Dec 11 2017 08:58:37 AM |
|
|
|
Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 09:04:58 AM
|
Hi Chard,
quote:
Although there's been alot of sexual arousal there's also a feeling of ungroundedness, so do I really want to be bringing energy up? Sorry, confused here...
If you are feeling ungrounded, then that is a sign that you need to self-pace your practices. That would mean cutting back especially on energy related practices such as siddhasana, pranayama, mudras and bandhas, as well as things like Tantric sexual practices.
Also, engaging in grounding practices is helpful. This is all covered in lesson 69:
Lesson 69 - Kundalini Symptoms, Imbalances and Remedies
When it comes to Tantric sex, simply staying in front of orgasm will help the energy rise upwards through the body, even if no other methods are used. It is a more stable and reliable method than attempting to divert energy at the last minute, by using the breath or other techniques such as sambhavi mudra. Those things certainly can work, but it can be a hit-and-miss affair, with less reliable results.
Christi
|
|
|
|
sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 09:08:33 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chard
Great responses everyone! Thank you so much!
But I noticed that happening for the second time the other day. I think it was because I get in front of orgasm and started breathing earlier. I wasn't left depleted but felt more radiant after. Not sure if that all makes sense...
Hi Chard,
As Charliedog already mentioned.You can practice staying before the orgasm. And if there is a need to climax, it happens at Swadisthan. That energy travels throughout the body and surroundings.The radiant feeling that you describe. It's subtle yet it feels solid like you can grasp it.
May be just relax in the Stillness/Beingness rather than worrying about the breathing.
We don't have many spiritual literature on this topic so far from women's perspective. But, these days it's the rise of Kali- fierce tenderness. I'm sure we will see more of them in years to come.
Here's to Divine intoxication!
P.S. Christ- we cross posted. |
Edited by - sunyata on Dec 11 2017 09:25:29 AM |
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 10:55:12 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
But, I would say that Brahmacharya is as important for women as it is for men for spiritual advancement.
OK, there must have been something very unclear in the wording of my post, because I never meant to imply that Brahmacharya is any less important for women than it is for men.
What I'm saying is that there are obvious physiological difference in male and female sexuality and most of the tantric techniques male yogis apply during intercourse are not applicable to women.
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
After this we are not depleted but radiant.
My point exactly. There is no loss to a woman, so there is no reason to hold back, other than energetic overload. More to do with self-pacing, nothing to do with avoiding energy loss.
There is a caveat for women - if the energy is not ascending, it will stagnate on svadhisthana, resulting in heavier periods. I hesitate to say sexual intercourse is the culprit, because I know the lack of sex life in a woman often result in energy stagnating on lower chakras, and painful, heavy periods. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Dec 11 2017 11:18:23 AM |
|
|
|
sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 11:06:00 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
But, I would say that Brahmacharya is as important for women as it is for men for spiritual advancement.
OK, there must have been something very unclear in the wording of my post, because I never meant to imply that Brahmacharya is any less important for women than it is for men.
What I'm saying is that there are obvious physiological difference in male and female sexuality and most of the tantric techniques male yogis apply during intercourse are not applicable to women.
Yes, the physiology is different but the techniques are similar. |
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 11:21:30 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
Yes, the physiology is different but the techniques are similar.
The techniques we use in our sitting practices are the same, of course.
The techniques that are useful during sexual intercourse are not the same. How many women here have used blocking?  Hands up any one? |
|
|
|
sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 11:23:12 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
Yes, the physiology is different but the techniques are similar.
The techniques we use in our sitting practices are the same, of course.
The techniques that are useful during sexual intercourse are not the same. How many women here have used blocking? Hands up any one?
Obviously not the ones which are directly related to the physiology. I'm bowing out. |
Edited by - sunyata on Dec 11 2017 11:24:00 AM |
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 11:58:58 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
Obviously not the ones which are directly related to the physiology.
Those are the ones I was talking about.
You see, I'm trying to infuse a bit of feminist spirit here Just because men have written a lot more than women about sexual yogic practices and evolution, we don't have to assume everything that applies to them applies to us to the letter. Energetically it does, but the "hardware" is different, yes? That has some consequences at physiological level.
So blocking is the obvious technique with no relevance to women whatsoever. The other one that I seriously question is staying ahead of orgasm. Why would a woman do that? As Charliedog said, we get more radiant as a result of it. In my experience, sex gives a push upwards to the energy. That means self-pacing becomes a consideration. I have had highs after sex that led to serious overload (it depends on what kind of sex as well).
The question I'd put to other women here is: Have you experienced a loss of energy after orgasm? Please think about your pre-yoga days too. Has orgasm ever made you feel depleted? Because if it doesn't, what would be the point of avoiding it? Are we just complicating things for ourselves by thinking we should be holding back when if fact there is no benefit to it for a woman?
I have highlighted the word "energy" above because I would not assume all physiological discharges to equate to energy loss. Some of the stuff released is for lubrication only, so I would think there is no loss of vital fluids (like sperm), which is energetically costly for the body to replenish.
I'm asking what your experiences are, fellow yoginis. Not what you think they should be to match what guys are describing. Let's not worry about them for once We need to write part of the tantra book for women. Copying everything from the men's book won't do. At least that is my impression. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Dec 11 2017 12:05:26 PM |
|
|
|
Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 12:14:49 PM
|
Hi all,
quote:
The techniques that are useful during sexual intercourse are not the same. How many women here have used blocking? Hands up any one?
I think blocking is the only Tantric sexual practice that can be used by men and not by women. All the other left-hand tantric practices such as the hold-back method, siddhasana, sambhavi mudra, mulabandha, pranayama and so on, can be used by both men and women during tantric sex. "Advanced siddhasana for men" cannot be used by women, but then there is "advanced siddhasana for women".
On the subject of energy depletion after orgasm for women, I have had women tell me that they do experience energy depletion after orgasm, some say that they would only experience energy depletion after multiple orgasms in one session, and some say that they do not experience energy depletion at all. So it could be the case that it is different for different women?
Added to that, is the fact that there are two different kinds of orgasm that women can experience, one based in the pelvic area and the other being a full-body orgasm. Some women report that they experience energy loss from the first kind of orgasm, but not from the second.
Eventually, both men and women are able to become fully orgasmic (whole body), all of the time, with no energy loss. So, the whole process of sexual transformation is quite a complex one, where it is difficult to make generalizations. Some general patterns do exist though and there is a process of becoming increasingly refined and ecstatic 24/7, as the process continues. The physical differences between men and women become increasingly less important as this process refines, because the sexual act becomes increasingly an energetic union, rather than a physical one.
Looking forward to the "Tantra for women" book!
Christi |
|
|
|
sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 12:29:01 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
On the subject of energy depletion after orgasm for women, I have had women tell me that they do experience energy depletion after orgasm, some say that they would only experience energy depletion after multiple orgasms in one session, and some say that they do not experience energy depletion at all. So it could be the case that it is different for different women?
Added to that, is the fact that there are two different kinds of orgasm that women can experience, one based in the pelvic area and the other being a full-body orgasm. Some women report that they experience energy loss from the first kind of orgasm, but not from the second.
Eventually, both men and women are able to become fully orgasmic (whole body), all of the time, with no energy loss. So, the whole process of sexual transformation is quite a complex one, where it is difficult to make generalizations. Some general patterns do exist though and there is a process of becoming increasingly refined and ecstatic 24/7, as the process continues. The physical differences between men and women become increasingly less important as this process refines, because the sexual act becomes increasingly an energetic union, rather than a physical one.
Christi
Yes! |
|
|
|
Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 12:43:40 PM
|
Yay for full-body orgasm!
Consult this song for further guidance (seriously): https://youtu.be/hi4pzKvuEQM
It's not merely about holding back, or being celibate, or any of those other minor details. It's about throwing oneself into a spiral of making love with all of life through every action and gesture. That's what the sutra "inner sensuality" is targeting.
The women who are rollerskating in that video are clearly orgasming through every muscle in their body (in a subtle, graceful way), and they're doing it for the benefit of all (service). Real tantra is not just about indulging in ecstasy with your personal partner; it's about spreading the good vibes through artistry and craftsmanship that reach beyond our privacy.
Then we can all be gliding in ecstasy together, regardless of the sexual context. |
|
|
|
BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 12:55:11 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I have had women tell me that they do experience energy depletion after orgasm, some say that they would only experience energy depletion after multiple orgasms in one session, and some say that they do not experience energy depletion at all. So it could be the case that it is different for different women?
That is a fair conclusion, based on those experiences. In which case there can't be a hard and fast rule that prescribes all women should stay ahead of orgasm. For some of us at least, it would be attempting to fix a problem we don't have.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Looking forward to the "Tantra for women" book!
It sounds like you have enough material to write it, Christi
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The physical differences between men and women become increasingly less important as this process refines, because the sexual act becomes increasingly an energetic union, rather than a physical one.
Of course, when we're there, we no longer need the book. But let's not forget there was a time for each of us (or most of us) when the book was useful. That doesn't include you Cody, since you've always been enlightened, as we all know  |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Dec 11 2017 1:05:08 PM |
|
|
|
Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 1:27:56 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
That doesn't include you Cody, since you've always been enlightened, as we all know
Finally, the truth is spoken!  |
|
|
|
Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 2:01:54 PM
|
Hi BlueRC,
quote:
That is a fair conclusion, based on those experiences. In which case there can't be a hard and fast rule that prescribes all women should stay ahead of orgasm. For some of us at least, it would be attempting to fix a problem we don't have.
That is not a conclusion I would like to jump to, too quickly. As you probably know, the hold back method is about more than retaining sexual energy. It is also about retaining sexual fluids, that are used as part of the production of amrita in the head. So in theory, even if a woman is experiencing orgasms, but not losing sexual energy through orgasm, she could be losing fluids that are important in the process of spiritual transformation.
So, that would be another question that could be put to women, whether orgasm affects the production of amrita? And if so, what kind of orgasm and how does it affect it?
Christi
|
|
|
|
yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 2:01:55 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
The real loss of energy in a woman is through her monthly cycle. Every month the womb builds up a new lining, which is then thrown out with a significant loss of blood and the whole process starts over and over.
Hi BlueRaincoat:
This is very true and a distinct difference between female and male inner ecstatic energy dynamics. As has been discussed in the Plus Forum some time back, yoginis (female yoga practitioners) tend to have significantly less loss of energy in the menstrual cycle, in some cases having it cease altogether for months at a time. It is part of the process of human spiritual transformation, along similar lines as tantric "holdback" practices leading to the rise of sexual energy into the nectar cycle, resulting in full time whole body ecstacy.
Lessons T32, T74 and T77 go into more detail on the relationship of yoga and the menstrual cycle, including additional means for reducing menstrual symptoms and flow, effect on fertility, and related matters.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
|
|
|
|
sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 2:24:09 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
That is not a conclusion I would like to jump to, too quickly. As you probably know, the hold back method is about more than retaining sexual energy. It is also about retaining sexual fluids, that are used as part of the production of amrita in the head. So in theory, even if a woman is experiencing orgasms, but not losing sexual energy through orgasm, she could be losing fluids that are important in the process of spiritual transformation.
So, that would be another question that could be put to women, whether orgasm affects the production of amrita? And if so, what kind of orgasm and how does it affect it?
That's exactly the experience here. With the practice of Brahmacharya- sweetness of breath, sweet intoxication has become part of life in spite of being only on Stage 1.5 of Kechari. The transformation is at the cellular physical level as we all know with these practices. |
Edited by - sunyata on Dec 11 2017 2:28:05 PM |
|
|
|
Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2017 : 2:48:10 PM
|
quote:
With the practice of Brahmacharya- sweetness of breath, sweet intoxication has become part of life
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
hold back question
