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reidmantra
United Arab Emirates
57 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 24 2017 : 12:36:11 PM
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| Hello all. Reidmantra here. I have read Lesson 13 many times but I have also read Christi, Charliedog, Dogboy, Bodhi-tree and others as to how the technique of Deep Meditation is to be practiced. My practice has evolved slightly over time but over the past two weeks I have been hit with a lack of clarity and/or trust in how I am personally practicing the technique of Deep meditation. Therefore, I want to describe how I practice and get feedback from the forum/group as to whether I understand the mechanics and if the way I am practicing is acceptable and/or correct. So here goes: After sitting down and closing my eyes, I wait about half a minute and then the mantra just comes to me. If it doesn't, then I repeat the mantra once or twice and then let it go and let it do whatever it wants to do. The best way to describe this is that after I pick up the mantra at the beginning of meditation I begin to think the mantra in the same effortless way as I would think any other thought. I simply listen to the mantra without interfering with it in any way. When the I AM mantra disappears or when I become aware that I can no longer hear it, or it disappears and my mind gets lost in a barrage of thoughts, I just quietly introduce it again without trying to make it clear and listen to the mantra as I begin the process again. Is this correct? Any re-clarification by the group would be greatly appreciated and welcomed. Namaste! - Reidmantra |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2017 : 2:02:38 PM
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the mantra in this way will lead to silence for me there is no correct or incorrect way no forcing only gentle persuasion ,the practice is not the goal but will lead to deeper states of awareness the mantra is a tool leading coaxing to different levels ,listening for me is good these are advanced practices take your time. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2017 : 2:44:49 PM
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Hi reidmantra,
Reading your topic, it sounds that you are perfectly comfortable on the journey. Enjoy  |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2017 : 4:36:36 PM
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quote:
When the I AM mantra disappears or when I become aware that I can no longer hear it, or it disappears and my mind gets lost in a barrage of thoughts, I just quietly introduce it again without trying to make it clear and listen to the mantra as I begin the process again. Is this correct?
This is correct. When you realize you are no longer on the mantra you simply easily favor the mantra again.  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2017 : 5:20:41 PM
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Hi Reidmantra,
Yes, that is the correct procedure for Deep Meditation, as long as by "let it go" you mean that you continue to repeat the mantra, gently favouring it with your attention, whenever you realise that you are off it.
If you want to get even closer to the correct procedure, then rest for about a minute at the beginning of the meditation (rather than 30 seconds), before picking up the mantra.
Christi
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2017 : 11:18:14 PM
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For the record, there was a slight schism in the Deep Meditation dogma that occurred about a year ago, when Yogani, for the first time ever, stipulated that if a person was not on the mantra for the majority of time during meditation, it would be advisable for them to consider more diluted techniques, such as witnessing (with no specific object) or easily favoring the breathing. From Lesson Addition 15.2:
"For most people, discontinuing the mantra will be fairly rare, not something that we would expect to be occurring in every session.
[...]
Better then to consider other methods for sensitive meditators (Lesson 367), like using breath as object."
I disagreed with that stipulation, and still feel that one should not gauge the effectiveness of easily favoring based on the amount of time spent on or off the mantra. In other words, I don't think that staying on the mantra is at the crux of easily favoring. But based on that lesson addition, Yogani is advising students to monitor the amount of time in which the mantra is discontinued.
I don't try to hang onto the mantra, nor do I worry about what percentage of the time I'm off the mantra. I don't think I've ever had a single session in which I was on the mantra for the entire time, but the easily favoring still feels smooth, and the purification and opening is steady. So despite Yogani's insistence that discontinuance in every session is a red flag signaling a need to consider a new technique, I remain content and steadfast with my practice of easily favoring the mantra.
I'm not interested in turning Deep Meditation into a rigid, japa-like contest to see how long my mind can stay affixed to the sound. What I'm interested in is refining the sound. Refinement allows for gaps of discontinuance (even in every single session), a variety of rhythms and pauses within the scope of repetition, and a loose grip on the mantra in general.
I'm still curious as to how Yogani can speak on behalf of the majority of meditators by saying that discontinuing the mantra is fairly rare. Have the vast majority of meditators provided written documentation directly testifying to the fact that they are rarely off the mantra? I'm sure that is the case for some, but I find it hard to swallow that he could speak so definitively on behalf of what is by now a very large pool of practitioners, with a wildly complex and vast matrix of obstructions that have to be navigated through delicately and uniquely.
We are not meant to be robots chanting the mantra in our mind endlessly and monotonously--fearing that we might got lost off the sound. In fact, Yogani once said that getting lost comprises the magic of the technique, but his recent warning to be weary of discontinuance of the mantra seems to be a 180-degree turn from the initial instructions, so it's a bit disconcerting.
Incidentally, that lesson addition came around the time when Christi posted a statement on the forum that was problematic to me. However, Yogani saw no problem in the statement. That statement was: "It is not that we favour the mantra only if it is easy to do so."
To this day, that statement remains completely nonsensical and erroneous to me, and I would never, ever, ever, ever use that as a linguistic trick for conveying the essence of easily favoring to any student, no matter how new or advanced.
In my book, I favor the mantra when it is easy to do so. When it is hard to favor the mantra, I do not. In between easy and hard, there is a grey area, and in my opinion, each practitioner must find their own groove and comfort when determining what is easy, and what is too difficult. The general flow tends to take care of the automatic preference and act of choosing, but that flow, for me, still includes gaps of silence and thoughts in which I'm off the mantra at certain times, pretty much every session.
So, Reidmantra, if you want to abide by the most recent lesson addition of Yogani's, make sure that any discontinuance of the mantra is fairly rare.
Personally, I'll stick to easily favoring the mantra, regardless of the amount of discontinuance, or lack thereof.  |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jan 24 2017 11:57:42 PM |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2017 : 12:21:03 AM
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Hi reidmantra,
Don,t forget to take rest after DM. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2017 : 12:43:19 AM
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Hi Bodhi and All:
The above two lines from AYP Plus Lesson Addition 15.2 have been quoted out of context. The implication that the instruction given is that the mantra should be there throughout deep meditation is incorrect. The procedure of deep meditation should be there throughout deep meditation -- easily favoring the mantra when we notice we are off it. The mantra may or may not be there, depending on purification and/or states of samadhi occurring, but the procedure will always be there.
Below is the lesson addition in it's entirety, which is one of several AYP Plus add-ons to Lesson 15 on dealing with restlessness in deep meditation.
The questions that came up at the time were, "What is easily picking up of the mantra and what is not?" and "Should the passive awareness technique in Lesson 15 be utilized on an ongoing basis if there is any effort at all involved in picking up the mantra?"
The concern here, and the reason for the lesson addition, was that a practitioner could find many excuses (any minor distraction) to retreat from the main procedure of deep meditation into Lesson 15 style passive awareness, and that in many cases this would not be appropriate and could undermine the overall effectiveness of deep meditation.
The lesson addition mentions that the few who have an ongoing over-sensitivity to deep meditation with mantra, and are constantly having to retreat into the Lesson 15 procedure, should look at Lesson 367 on alternative approaches for over-sensitive meditators.
The two lines quoted from the lesson addition are in blue and underlined. The reader should consider them in the context of the lesson addition and Lesson 15. Taken alone they can be very misleading.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
quote:
Addition 15.2 - Picking Up the Mantra - Easy Versus Too Much Strain (Audio)
Jan 15, 2016
Q: When thoughts come and remain while picking up the mantra when I notice I have been off it, it is less easy to favor the mantra, and I am inclined to stop thinking the mantra until the thoughts subside, along the lines instructed in Lesson 15 (above). I would not say that picking up the mantra is difficult to do at that time, but neither is it entirely effortless either with other distracting thoughts continuing in the mind. Is this correct practice?
A: It is normal for thoughts and sensations to be present and remain at times while we are favoring the mantra. This situation is not a signal to stop thinking the mantra, unless the thoughts and sensations are overwhelming, prohibiting us from thinking the mantra without too much strain.
The question hinges on the definition of "easy," and it is a bit different for everyone, and different for new versus longer time practitioners as well.
When it comes to the mantra, by "easy" we mean picking it up as doing something when we realize we are off it, thinking it as any other thought at whatever level we are at in the mind -- clear or fuzzy -- our thought of choice (whenever we have a choice) while we are in deep meditation, even if other thoughts are present.
Letting go of thinking the mantra during meditation does not mean doing that whenever we sense a little effort in it. It means letting go when picking up the mantra is difficult and uncomfortable due to strong thoughts and/or a strong physical sensation in the body, as discussed in the above Lesson 15. Laying off the mantra and allowing the attention to be drawn to a strong overwhelming sensation is an exception to normal practice, an additional technique we use when we'd can't think the mantra without straining.
We do not use this additional technique whenever there may a little bit of effort picking up the mantra. If that were the case, many may be inclined to not pick up the mantra at all, because there is a little effort in it. Doing a little something to ease back to the mantra when we notice we are off it is what mantra meditation is. Easy and effortlessness does not mean perpetually doing nothing.
If the mantra were a mountain and the mountain is not coming to us, then we can do a little something to go to the mountain. If we encounter a strong, seemingly insurmountable and uncomfortable obstruction in the neurobiology while doing that, then we can let it go for a few minutes, allowing the obstruction to dissolve naturally in the innocent gaze of awareness. Not focused awareness, but innocent gaze that has been drawn by the strong sensation itself. That is when we let go, not every time we perceive that we are having other thoughts or sensations, doing a little something to pick up the mantra. It is a fine point and an important one.
This entire process becomes refined as we progress in experience over months and years, and that may account for the different understandings coming up about what is easy and effortless. As we say in Lesson 84, we have to do something in order to do nothing deep in stillness. Deep meditation is a proactive technique, and that is the difference between it and more passive techniques. The progressive nature of the deep meditation procedure is also what makes it a very powerful technique. With less progressive techniques, we may end up doing little to nothing on a less transcendent level, with less long term spiritual progress.
"Strain" and "discomfort" to the point of not being able to pick up the mantra is the criterion for going to the Lesson 15 procedure, which is a more extreme situation. Even that may be considered to be nebulous, and it depends on the individual where picking up the mantra is just not realistic.
For most people, discontinuing the mantra will be fairly rare, not something that we would expect to be occurring in every session. The way you allude to it, it is presented to be a normal part of daily meditation for everyone, which in the vast majority of cases it is not. In other words, a little effort is preferable to retreating into a procedure that is designed to be the exception for difficult purification episodes rather than the rule for the everyday ups and downs that occur in meditation. Sometimes meditation can be a bit uncomfortable. It is a normal part of the purification process. That is no reason to discontinue favoring the mantra.
There may be those who have difficult episodes more than others. In those cases, Lesson 15 should not become a constant crutch while struggling with the mantra. Better then to consider other methods for sensitive meditators (Lesson 367), like using breath as object.
At times, we may find that we are deep in stillness during our meditation and tempted to favor that rather than ease back to the mantra when we notice we are not on it. This would be a departure from correct deep meditation practice, as discussed in Lesson Addition 79.3.
Practice wisely and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2017 : 12:50:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
The above two lines from AYP Plus Lesson Addition 15.2 have been quoted out of context. The implication that the instruction given is that the mantra should be there throughout deep meditation is incorrect. The procedure of deep meditation should be there throughout deep meditation -- easily favoring the mantra when we notice we are off it. The mantra may or may not be there, depending on purification and/or states of samadhi occurring, but the procedure will always be there.
Thank you for the clarification, and for putting the quotes back in context. |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jan 25 2017 11:24:46 AM |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2017 : 11:03:37 AM
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| The analogy for deep meditation could be cycling. When you repeat the mantra, it is like pedaling. When you are not pedaling, you are said to be distracted by thoughts or being in silence. While cycling we are not going to huff and puff throughout the journey. There will be periods of inactivity. Too much inactivity, and the cycle will grind to a halt. |
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reidmantra
United Arab Emirates
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2017 : 1:19:27 PM
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| Thank you. All of you, for your replies and advice. I feel, based on what the group has wrote, that I am meditating correctly. My daily life continues to slowly improve over time and I think I will stick with AYP deep meditation. I don't know if I have some kind learning problem around meditation, but phrases like `easily favor' and be `gentle with the process' cause me confusion and often times real discouragement. This technique sounds so easy when you see it written down so why do I still have such a hard time with the correct meanings of words and simple instructions. I have struggled for a little while now but was hesitant to post anything on this forum for fear of seeming both repetitive and stupid. I seem to ask the same questions again and again. How long can I do this before someone on this forum loses their patience with me. Luckily it has not happened yet. Everyone has been super super helpful and kind to me. I honestly think that were it not for the forum, I would have given up in frustration and discouragement a good while ago. I want to thank all who responded to me now and I would also like to thank in advance all who will respond to me in the future, even if my questions are repetitive in nature. I am going to meditate now. Talk to all of you men and women soon. Namaste and OM Shanti. - Reidmantra |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2017 : 3:16:02 PM
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Hi Reidmantra,
Good to hear that things are going well. Deep Meditation is really a very simple procedure and it is useful not to try to over-analyse it, but just to let it happen. If you find the phrase "easily favor the mantra" difficult, then you could replace it with something else, such as "simply favor the mantra with your attention".
"Simply favor" is used by Yogani in lesson addition 397.1:
"Q: I often have profound experiences during meditation, which are very important for me to understand, and I have experimented with many variations in practice to optimize these experiences. I feel that coming back to the mantra in AYP style deep meditation takes me out of these experiences and the revelations they contain. Can you comment on this?
A: Easily coming back to the mantra is not "coming out" of the experience we are in. It is simply favoring the mantra whenever we notice we are off it, coming back to the mantra at whatever level of clarity or fuzziness we happen to be at in the mind, and continuing. No adjustment in attention is necessary beyond a simple favoring wherever we are when we notice we are off the mantra.
Nothing is left behind, except our inclination to analyze what is happening while we are meditating. Best to save the analysis for later. Or forget about analysis altogether, and just practice daily with consistency, and go out and live fully in daily life. Letting go of the need to analyze inner experiences is the way forward. Enlightenment and its fruits are far beyond all that, and at the same time much more practical in everyday living." [Yogani] (underlining added)
"Easily favor the mantra" is used, because there are situations under which we may not favor the mantra, and these are outlined in lesson 15. But these are exceptions to the rule, which do not come up often in practice.
The exceptions are described here:
"Sometimes physical discomfort can happen during meditation. This is usually a symptom of the release of obstructions in the nervous system. If it interferes with the easy process of meditation, then pause with the mantra and allow the attention to be drawn to the physical discomfort. Just be with it for a while. Usually, this will dissolve the discomfort naturally. Once it does, go back to the mantra and continue your meditation until your time is up. Count the time you spent with your attention on the physical discomfort as part of your meditation time. If the sensation does not dissolve, lie down for while, until the sensation subsides. It is a good thing. A big obstruction is going. Let it go easily, naturally. The same procedure applies if you are overcome with a barrage of overbearing thoughts, which may or may not be accompanied by physical sensations." [yogani]
So if you are not encountering one of these exceptions from lesson 15, then you would simply favor the mantra with your attention, whenever you notice that you are not doing so. These exceptions outlined in lesson 15, are likely to come up more for beginners who have more gross obstructions being cleared, than they are for advanced practitioners.
Meditation is not easy. If it were, there would be many more enlightened people on the planet than there are. It does involve purification and that means some discomfort can arise at times. This discomfort can be mental, physical and emotional. But it does get easier over time, and after a while the beauty of the practice and the positive changes that happen in our lives, begin to outweigh any difficult purification that may be happening. Eventually, they far outweigh it.
Christi |
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kensbikes100
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2017 : 07:52:30 AM
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Returning to the mantra: Over the years I've done this in a number of ways, not with intentional control, it just happens in different ways.
If the mantra was a near subvocalization, I usually just subvocalize it again. If the mantra is thin and vague, just a subliminal pulse, I usually go back to it at that level. If I realized I wwnt off the mantra at the end of an intense or energetic thought, I am a little more verbal: Glad that's over and gone, time for the mantra again!
I believe it doesn't matter how one returns to the mantra or whether it seems to involve a conscious act. The main thing is to return to it without interrupting the process of DM. If it takes a few seconds, what difference can that make? We are all doing what we can at every moment, in DM. |
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SuperTrouper
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2017 : 01:44:07 AM
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| Sounds perfectly right. When I started, I went through excessive permutations of how to practice the mantra, what felt right. The instructions on DM were right, but there was a lack of subtle thoroughness, as well as a lack of understanding on my part. Eventually I got it, though, and it was fine. Most meditation objects are like that, though, when you first start to use them. You're unsure if you're doing it correctly until you begin to experience standard signs of progress. |
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Meditation clarification needed
