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d4rr3n
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 04 2016 : 09:00:31 AM
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Hello this is my first post and my first question on here, actually I actually found this forum whilst trying to search for answers to this very question.
Is there an equivalent practice in Indian yoga/tantra to the Chinese internal alchemy (neidan) practices?
Specifically the concept of creating/brewing a physical elixir (called the pill of immortality in Chinese neidan practices) within the lower dantian/chakra.
This substance being the result of transmuting raw materials within the body specifically Jing which we may think of as secretions from various glands. |
Edited by - AYPforum on Dec 06 2016 10:42:44 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2016 : 09:28:24 AM
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Hi d4rr3n,
Welcome to the forum.
Yes, the same thing is taught in yoga. Slightly different words are used than in the Chinese system, but the mechanics of it are the same.
The process is one of the creation of an elexir referred to as soma, or amrita. The word amrita means "immortal". The fluids used to create the elexir within the body are sexual fluids.
If you run searches on the word "amrita" or "nectar cycle", you will find a fair amount of detail on the process. You may find this lessons useful:
Lesson 133: Nectar
I have written something about it on my website here:
What is amrita?
Also there is quite a bit of information in this topic:
Amrita question
Ultimately, it is actually simply a question of practice. By using the AYP practices, at some point the flow of energy up through the body will become strong enough to bring natural vajroli mudra into play and the elexir (amrita) will be produced. Brahmacharya, or the preservation of sexual energy, is an important aspect of the process.
Christi
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d4rr3n
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2016 : 11:52:20 AM
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Hello Christi,
I had stumbled on the soma subject whilst searching however what I read was that this substance was manufactured in the brain during meditation and the method was to prevent it going down. Everything that I read said if it goes down to the manipura chakra it gets burned up.
I also came across the Tibetan concept of drops, one reference I read was that there was a red drop in one of the lower chakras. I had thought that this drop might be similar to the Chinese concept of the red pill (some say its golden jindan) in the lower dantian.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2016 : 12:10:05 PM
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Hi d4rr3n,
Unfortunately I can't really comment on other systems of spiritual practice that I am not familiar with. Often, different words and concepts are used, but without understanding the whole system, it is difficult to comment.
In my own experience, the process begins with sexual fluids being drawn up into the bladder, through a process called vajroli. From the bladder, an etheric aspect of these fluids is taken up to the manipura chakra and the region of the belly. Within the belly, this etheric (pranic) aspect is mixed with prana taken from food and prana taken from air. A new substance is formed which rises up into the head and is transformed there into amrita. The amrita will naturally trickle down in drops, or flows, towards the ajna, or throat or heart chakras. It is re-absorbed into the body in these areas. Whether it goes lower or not, I can't say. It is not something I have experienced.
What the red drops are, referred to in some Tibetan scriptures, I can't say, but it may be metaphorical? One of the experiences of amrita is that it can be felt that drops, or "beads" of oil are dripping down the head from the crown, or from the ajna chakra. But these drops are golden, or white in colour, not red. They are etheric, so cannot be seen with the human physical eyes, only with the inner eye.
Christi |
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d4rr3n
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2016 : 12:51:35 PM
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Hi Christi,
Thanks for the information, when you say the bladder would that be the navel chakra in Indian text or some lower or minor chakra?
I'm wondering if the bladder is the correct place this substance is processed/transmuted. We know from men that have vasectomys that when they urinate the semen is passed out. There is also argument in Chinese text where the dantian actually is. All text say its below the navel but some place it higher or much lower. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2016 : 1:11:33 PM
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Hi d4rr3n,
By the bladder, I mean literally the bladder. It is fairly close to the second chakra in yogic terminology, but not identical.
And yes, the bladder is connected to the testes, so semen can pass directly up into the bladder. This happens for men if they use the "blocking technique" during sex. With the process of vajorli occurring naturally, in the beginning, semen can often be seen passing with the urine during urination. Later on, as the process becomes stronger and amrita is being produced, this will be much less noticeable or stop all together.
The bladder is just one of the places where the transformations happen, the others being the manipura chakra, the belly, the head, crown chakra and ajna chakra.
As to where the dantien is, I really don't know, as it is outside the framework of yoga. I suspect that the "lower dantien" is synonymous with the first and second chakras, both below the navel. Kundalini rises from the lower centres (first and second chakras), up through the body, providing the power, or "draw" to produce the vajroli effect, and to cause amrita to be produced. So if the lower dantien is said to be involved in the production of amrita (elexir), in the Chinese texts, then that could be why. Or, if the "dantien" is a term that is being used to refer to the "couldron", where the mixing takes place, to produce the elexir, then that would be the manipura/ stomach/ solar plexus area.
Christi |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2016 : 1:40:50 PM
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Sublimation.  |
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d4rr3n
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2016 : 3:32:54 PM
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Is amrita and Soma the same thing or two different nectars in the body?
I remember that Soma in the mahabharata is produced by the distilling of "celestial herbs" (makes me think of the brain).
Amrita was produced by churning the milky ocean (could be a metaphor for the sexual fluids). |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2016 : 5:40:31 PM
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Hi d4rr3n,
Soma is produced by the mixing process in the belly and manipura chakra. From there the soma travels up into the head where it is transformed into amrita. Often though, the two words are used synonymously. There is another word which is "ojas". Ojas is the expansion of amrita outward through the nervous system in a way that can be palpably felt by others as ecstasy.
And yes, the "churning of the milky ocean" which results in the production of "nectar", or "imortality" in the Mahabharata, is a clear reference to sexual fluids and the mixing in the belly.
As well as the links I put in above, you may also find these lessons useful
Lesson 51 - Strange Gurglings in Pranayama
Lesson 304 - Diet, Kundalini and the nectar cycle
and:
lesson 379 - Swallowing air
There are also references to vajroli and soma in lesson T60:
Lesson T60 - Natural Vajroli and Whole Body Ecstasy
Christi |
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d4rr3n
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2016 : 11:03:28 AM
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Christi,
Thanks for all the great info!
I cant help think that some vital info is missing or has been lost from the process because "you shall know them by their fruits" and we dont see people walking around hundreds of years old or looking 20 years younger then they are neither Chinese nei dan practitioners or those who practice yoga.
We can only come to two conclusions either some vital ingredient is missing or the claims made were never true from the beginning. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2016 : 1:17:49 PM
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Hi d4rr3n,
Immortal does not mean that you will be walking around for hundreds of years in the same body. It means living forever. 
You come to know yourself as that which is unborn, undying, unconditioned, unfettered and beyond time itself. This is the realization of the Self and the goal of yoga. The physical body is mortal and will drop when the time is right.
It is not only the production of amrita which leads to the realization of the Self, it only plays a part. All of the rest of yoga also plays a part: The asanas, pranayama, meditation, mudras and bandhas, samyama, bhakti, self-inquiry and so on. Amrita speeds up the process of purification and therefor of Self-realization.
When someone is awakened (Self-realized), they are then able to awaken others. So those "others", once awakened, are the "fruits that you can know them by".
If people are thinking that amrita extends the lifespan of the physical body, or makes the physical body look younger than it actually is, this is really a distraction from the real process that is taking place, which is enlightenment.
Christi |
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d4rr3n
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2016 : 3:23:42 PM
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Humans are Immortal anyway (the atma), you don't need to do something to achieve that. The legends I have read about Soma, Amrita etc is that they confer long life and slow down ageing dramatically in the physical.
If we do not observe this in ourselves then we must conclude either we do not fully understand the process (this may require us eating humble pie)or that the claims were never true from the beginning. |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2016 : 3:51:29 PM
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thanks a lot d4rr3n for bringing this great topic and of course Christi for the wonderful explanation. It's great to see based on your own experience that for soma/amrita no specific dantien practice was necessary.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2016 : 4:36:56 PM
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Hi d4rr3n,
quote:
If we do not observe this in ourselves then we must conclude either we do not fully understand the process (this may require us eating humble pie)or that the claims were never true from the beginning.
As I mentioned above, it is a distraction. All sorts of claims can be made about the power of yoga. Sometimes people will say that they knew someone, who heard of someone else who lived for two hundred years. But it is always second or third hand information and when the person is looked for, they can never be found.
There isn't any evidence that enlightened people live for longer than the average and in fact seem to have fairly normal lifespans.
The real miracles are happening all around us, but we miss them if we start getting caught up in castles in the air. As it says in the bible: "Seek first the kingdom of heaven and all things will be added unto you". The kingdom of heaven is the atma. But before we can find the kingdom of heaven, a bit of housecleaning is needed, and the production of amrita happens in the mid-stages of the housecleaning. It is an amazing part of the process, but it is only a part and we should not give it too much weight.
quote:
It's great to see based on your own experience that for soma/amrita no specific dantien practice was necessary.
Hi Will Power,
I don't know what a "dantien practice" is, but if it is something like uddiyana bandha, then that could play a part in the process, as it increases the flows of prana in the lower belly/ upper pelvic area and this will put a stronger draw on sexual fluids. But even without this specific practice, when the upward flow of kundalini is strong enough it will bring about the nectar cycle and the producation of amrita. So technically no specific practices are needed, other than the body-wide purification practices of pranayama and meditation.
Christi |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2016 : 5:32:12 PM
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Hi d4rr3n,
In my humble opinion,with the dawn of Self Realization. We come to the place of "Thy will be done" so it doesn't matter whether you can live for two hundred years or look twenty years longer.
Also, a lot of yogis and yoginis I know look much younger for their age.
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jean
Germany
107 Posts |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2016 : 10:42:44 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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d4rr3n
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2016 : 11:14:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi d4rr3n,
As I mentioned above, it is a distraction. All sorts of claims can be made about the power of yoga. Sometimes people will say that they knew someone, who heard of someone else who lived for two hundred years. But it is always second or third hand information and when the person is looked for, they can never be found.
There isn't any evidence that enlightened people live for longer than the average and in fact seem to have fairly normal lifespans.
This is true, at least in the time we live in (the kali yuga) however these claims of physical longevity through soma/amrita are given even in the vadas themselves. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2016 : 2:42:28 PM
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Hi d4rr3n,
The Vedas were written by humans, so just because something is written in the Vedas does not necessarily make it true. Some of the things in the Upanishads are metaphorical, rather than literal, so are written to mean something other than what is actually being said.
As the Buddha once said: "Don't believe anything, especially the things that I tell you." He went on to say that everything should be tested and then only believed once it has passed the test.
If there is actually some evidence that someone has extended their lifespan through the production of amrita, then I would certainly be willing to look at the evidence. I have not seen any so far.
But as Sunyata mentioned above, these things actually become less and less important as we progress on the path of yoga. Other things become much more important, so be careful not to get side-tracked. Otherwise it can be like looking only at the finger, when the finger is actually pointing at the moon.
Christi |
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Michael80
Germany
4 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2016 : 2:52:50 PM
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Hi D4rr3n!
No, there is no equivalent in Yoga like the neidan (internal alchemy) process.
The dantiens are not chakras but are more like spheres where emptiness Comes into form. These dantien have specific functions, for ex. the lower dantien transmutats jing to chi. But they can also be used to transmutate energies.
the pill of immortality is not a physical substance in neidan.
In neidan no semen is used. Semen and Body fluids are postheaven stuff (postheaven jing). In neidan only preheaven stuff is used. Postheaven stuff is used in qi gong and neigong but they do not have the neidan results.
Today a lot of qi gong and neigong Terms are used to desribe neidan, but neidan uses them differently and is still very seldom to learn from a School that has the full teaching.
There was however some Indian internal yoga alchemists in southern india (the southern Tamil Tradition). they also had immortal physical bodies and at the highest stage dissolved the physical Body into light (like in real neidan). Not much is know about their authentic teaching but they used sun & moon meditations and very secret pranayamas. |
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The human body as an alchemical laboratory
