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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 1:28:09 PM
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Dread and doom were the first things I dropped now I only get angry at not finding my car keys blessings Jim  |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 11:14:52 PM
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Just offering a different perspective which is not a yoga perspective. Take it or leave it if it doesn't mean anything to you.
I see the world more in shades of emotion these days, we all have certain emotions that we don't process/ digest as easily as others. These will be the ones that are more likely to surface when our energy moves/ oscillates into "the negative"harmonic.
Anyone can experience so called negative emotions it isn't difficult, focus too much on yourself instead of others, bask unnaturally long in emotional highs (of any kind), by drawing in too much knowledge in a short time frame or bask in ecstasy or bliss, the negative emotional experience will be there as surely as the sunrise. There are some emotional harmonics we are more comfortable with, those are less likely to stick or surface for long. Eventually they all come and go more quickly, but will always be there in the colorful universe of duality. It isn't personal, it's just the law of the universe, nothing more.
The thoughts that we experience in any given moment and cluster to the emotions are meaningless other than they create the story giving our world context and so called meaning.
I think the comedian Louis CK said it well in one of his stand up shows when talking about masturbation, to paraphrase badly he said something along the lines of the most amazing euphoric high to complete self loathing and disgust, lol... and the elastic band snaps back to balance and stillness, beautiful.
Of course if there is resistance, then that is a whole other ball game and negative emotions can persist for amazingly long periods of time even if it's subtle. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2016 : 01:52:30 AM
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Pleasant words are like honeycomb ,sweetness to the soul and health to the bones Proverbs
Thankyou anthem [ |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2016 : 07:58:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
Pleasant words are like honeycomb ,sweetness to the soul and health to the bones Proverbs
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2016 : 06:12:09 AM
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@ Jim and his Karma
Hi Jim, I read your opening post many times; I came back to reread it again and again, but only yesterday, after reading a post of MrCuddly in another thread, I found out the question that was actually bothering me: do you think that this freezing/depression state will happen with ANY meditation method? Or do you think that some meditation methods will have a milder aftereffect (or even no effect at all) in terms of freezing/depression? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2016 : 7:42:12 PM
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It's not due to a particular method, or due to meditation at all. It's a potential pitfall along the road for anyone once sustained bliss and silence are experienced.
It's not necessary to fret or to take precautions. It's sufficient to keep in the back of your mind a reminder that if you're awash in bliss, and you're not budging - appearing to all the world like a depressed person, but your sunny disposition and equanimity strike you as sufficient counter-evidence - consider that your perspective has simply gotten stuck. Your body can be depressed even if you're not. Fixed perspective is problematic, even if you're at a point where nothing's a problem (and you needn't resolve that paradox), and even if what you're fixated on is supremely beautiful. So in that case: move. Engage. Take action. Ground. Play.
If it's not something you're experiencing, there's nothing to worry about. This little posting is not for you. In any case, AYP's frequent reminders to engage normally in the world should be sufficient, if you heed them. This is for non-heeders. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Aug 13 2016 7:47:13 PM |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2016 : 09:52:24 AM
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Hi Jim, thank you for your reply.
Are you really sure that such a freezing can happen with ANY kind of practice? I mean, maybe there are some approaches that tend to emphasize the blissful/silent state, making it difficult to fully engage in daily life. And maybe other approaches are more oriented toward a householder lifestyle. Or maybe one is at risk to simply chose an approach that is not the right one for him/her and develop detachment from daily life without even noticing it. In such a case, even the best reminders to stay active and engage in daily life can be easily ignored by the practitioner. I must admit that you scared me with this thread - although I am very grateful to you for that. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2016 : 01:38:38 AM
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Bliss feels good. Anyone who has had a taste of it knows that. And silence is infinitely absorbing. And the conviction that all is well and nothing needs to change makes any position in any moment a position of sublime repose.
If you get stuck there - and why wouldn't you? - the body you're inhabiting will do what all bodies do when perspective freezes: it will fall into depression, even if mind is clear and blissful. It's hard to understand what's happening. So I've explained it.
I'm NOT here to discuss this, or warn about this, to those who are not in such a position. I'm leaving breadcrumbs for anyone who does, because it's not information that can be found elsewhere. And I've now said all I care to. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Aug 20 2016 01:40:20 AM |
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jean
Germany
107 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2016 : 07:55:32 AM
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This reminds me of what David Spero said about Samadhis:
quote:
A Billion Samadhis Won't Make You Happy
The reason why you can have many different levels of awakening and still not be satisfied is because you have not encountered the ultimate ecstasy, the one that puts everything to rest. And it’s natural to go searching for more and more until you encounter that, that is until your heart is really brought into this completely. That’s what tastes the ecstasy. It’s the heart consciousness. You can get a billion samadhis and never rest; great unity and oneness, witnessing, endless witnessing and that doesn’t put you to rest. The heart has to explode in this final condition. But that implies total vulnerability, that every aspect of you then, has to be in That. There is no more two. Then it’s just One, one singularity functioning in multiplicity. Multiplicity still goes on. So, don’t listen to those Vedic reductionist who are telling you it’s all empty. They are painting a safe haven because they know that they are going to seduce you into that illusion, so, you walk into it. I’m telling you that there is nowhere to rest. There is nowhere to abide. You have to just blow everything, every spiritual house to smithereens. So, you don’t live anywhere. Only the heart exists. So, that naturally will be the end of all spiritual realization, the end of all spirituality, and the end, in a glorious sense, not in a dismal sense; in a glorious sense of having realized everything
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2016 : 11:51:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jean
This reminds me of what David Spero said about Samadhis:
quote:
A Billion Samadhis Won't Make You Happy
The reason why you can have many different levels of awakening and still not be satisfied is because you have not encountered the ultimate ecstasy, the one that puts everything to rest. And it’s natural to go searching for more and more until you encounter that, that is until your heart is really brought into this completely. That’s what tastes the ecstasy. It’s the heart consciousness. You can get a billion samadhis and never rest; great unity and oneness, witnessing, endless witnessing and that doesn’t put you to rest. The heart has to explode in this final condition. But that implies total vulnerability, that every aspect of you then, has to be in That. There is no more two. Then it’s just One, one singularity functioning in multiplicity. Multiplicity still goes on. So, don’t listen to those Vedic reductionist who are telling you it’s all empty. They are painting a safe haven because they know that they are going to seduce you into that illusion, so, you walk into it. I’m telling you that there is nowhere to rest. There is nowhere to abide. You have to just blow everything, every spiritual house to smithereens. So, you don’t live anywhere. Only the heart exists. So, that naturally will be the end of all spiritual realization, the end of all spirituality, and the end, in a glorious sense, not in a dismal sense; in a glorious sense of having realized everything
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2016 : 2:17:42 PM
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2016 : 3:32:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jean
This reminds me of what David Spero said about Samadhis:
quote:
A Billion Samadhis Won't Make You Happy
The reason why you can have many different levels of awakening and still not be satisfied is because you have not encountered the ultimate ecstasy, the one that puts everything to rest. And it’s natural to go searching for more and more until you encounter that, that is until your heart is really brought into this completely. That’s what tastes the ecstasy. It’s the heart consciousness. You can get a billion samadhis and never rest; great unity and oneness, witnessing, endless witnessing and that doesn’t put you to rest. The heart has to explode in this final condition. But that implies total vulnerability, that every aspect of you then, has to be in That. There is no more two. Then it’s just One, one singularity functioning in multiplicity. Multiplicity still goes on. So, don’t listen to those Vedic reductionist who are telling you it’s all empty. They are painting a safe haven because they know that they are going to seduce you into that illusion, so, you walk into it. I’m telling you that there is nowhere to rest. There is nowhere to abide. You have to just blow everything, every spiritual house to smithereens. So, you don’t live anywhere. Only the heart exists. So, that naturally will be the end of all spiritual realization, the end of all spirituality, and the end, in a glorious sense, not in a dismal sense; in a glorious sense of having realized everything
Hi Jean,
This is very similar to what Yogani wrote in lesson 274:
"By the way, neurobiologically speaking, the jivan mukti/Christ stage corresponds with the union of inner silence and ecstatic conductivity evolving up from everywhere in the body, reaching maturity in the head, and then migrating back down into the heart where the spiritual rebirth occurs. So the heart is where we will end up with all this. The heart is the final home of our enlightenment in this body, with the neurobiology of the whole body supporting that." [Yogani]
With the right practices we do not need to enter a billion samadhis, or even a million for that matter. With dedicated practices, the heart will be brought into play sooner rather than later, and this has as much to do with being active during the day in service to others (Seva), as it does with being in samadhi during sitting practices.
In the Bhagavad Gita it says that karma yoga, the yoga of action, is the highest form of yoga. This is why.
Christi
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2016 : 3:52:29 PM
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What Christi said.  |
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Jefftos
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2016 : 11:05:35 AM
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Jim,
I just read through this thread. I'm a lurker on the forums. But I post every now and again. Been practicing ayp for about four years now and I know exactly what you speak of. I only wish you had posted it two or three years ago when I went through it. I had found estatic bliss and deep inner silence. Nothing could touch me, not poverty, not pain, not even the little hiccups of everyday life. Yet my body was depressed, everyone around me knew it but me. I was so fixated on the silence and bliss that I disregarded the advice to actively engage in daily life and just surrendered to that silence. Doing that nearly cost me my marriage. I am not sure how but at one point I remember seeing how sad my wife had become at my detachment. That began a long process of pulling me back into daily life. I stopped all yoga practices and began only doing small prayers and light meditations and started to become more involved in my own life. Interestingly enough getting into ceremonial magic helped to refocus me back into daily life as the focus there was on this world and not on the next, so I began working horizontally instead of vertically, forcing me to consider the life in front of me instead of numbly watching it. Not that I advise anyone else to do that, that's just where my inner guru lead me and it worked out for me really well. In any case I am glad you are sharing this advice. I am not sure if I would have heeded it when I was in that condition, but it may help others. |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2016 : 11:57:22 AM
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Welcome back to your life, Jefftos, I'm sure your loved ones appreciate your expression.  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2016 : 11:00:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jefftos
Jim,
I just read through this thread. I'm a lurker on the forums. But I post every now and again. Been practicing ayp for about four years now and I know exactly what you speak of. I only wish you had posted it two or three years ago when I went through it. I had found estatic bliss and deep inner silence. Nothing could touch me, not poverty, not pain, not even the little hiccups of everyday life. Yet my body was depressed, everyone around me knew it but me. I was so fixated on the silence and bliss that I disregarded the advice to actively engage in daily life and just surrendered to that silence. Doing that nearly cost me my marriage. I am not sure how but at one point I remember seeing how sad my wife had become at my detachment. That began a long process of pulling me back into daily life. I stopped all yoga practices and began only doing small prayers and light meditations and started to become more involved in my own life. Interestingly enough getting into ceremonial magic helped to refocus me back into daily life as the focus there was on this world and not on the next, so I began working horizontally instead of vertically, forcing me to consider the life in front of me instead of numbly watching it. Not that I advise anyone else to do that, that's just where my inner guru lead me and it worked out for me really well. In any case I am glad you are sharing this advice. I am not sure if I would have heeded it when I was in that condition, but it may help others.
Hi Jeftos,
Welcome to the forums.
The lesson here seems to be: "Follow the instructions given in the lessons, no matter what is arising on the journey".
As I am sure you know, Yogani does stress many times throughout the lessons, to go out and live a normal life when not engaged in practices.
Good to hear that you realized that you were not doing that, and put it right!
There is a period of dissociation that can occur on the path, as we are developing the witness, and differentiating between what is real and what is not real. So it is not only experiences of bliss, or ecstasy, that could cause us to forget to engage with the world, but also this stage of dissociation. In fact the rise of bliss as an ongoing experience, often comes at the same time as this process of differentiation is happening, as what is real, is blissful.
Engaging in the world is something that naturally develops into service to others, as we progress on the path, and this leads to a natural opening of the heart as divine love. So engagement in activity, is not only necessary to remain grounded and avoid torpor and instability, but is actually a requirement for the fulfillment of the higher stages of the path.
Christi |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2016 : 11:27:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Engaging in the world is something that naturally develops into service to others, as we progress on the path, and this leads to a natural opening of the heart as divine love. So engagement in activity, is not only necessary to remain grounded and avoid torpor and instability, but is actually a requirement for the fulfillment of the higher stages of the path.
It can't be any other way because all there is "God". Silence and Ecstatic Bliss is not only in you but the whole creation is infused/vibrating with them.
To quote Yogani "Getting enlightenment is giving it away. Getting enlightenment is letting it go"
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Edited by - sunyata on Sep 26 2016 11:32:04 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2016 : 4:01:31 PM
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quote:
It can't be any other way because all there is "God". Silence and Ecstatic Bliss is not only in you but the whole creation is infused/vibrating with them.
To quote Yogani "Getting enlightenment is giving it away. Getting enlightenment is letting it go"
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2016 : 09:12:20 AM
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Hi all,
For those who are reading the Bhagavad Gita, in preparation for the Teacher Training Course next year, or for anyone else who is interested, the importance of remaining active when not engaged in meditation, and the way that action should be performed, is discussed in chapter 3. The relationship between action (with renunciation) and spiritual knowledge is discussed in chapter 5.
Chapter 17 discusses the 3 types of action (Rajasic, Tamasic and Satvic), and which types of action are preferable.
Christi
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2016 : 11:22:43 AM
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Jefftos,
As you've surely noticed, it's not an issue of disassociation. It's simply a matter of frozen perspective. For years, you'd immersed fully in The Drama. Then you discovered that the drama was happening around you, not TO you, so your perspective quite properly refocused on what's true: the silence underpinning and subsuming absolutely everything. That's exactly what we are all here for; that's why we do practices. Coaxing our perspective to shift in this way is the whole damned point. You didn't go away, nor have you come back. You just opened up to what the world truly is.
But, as you discovered, the thing about human bodies is that, regardless of what's happening mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, bodies tend to go into depression whenever perspective locks. It doesn't matter whether it locks on something negative and false or something beautiful and true. It's the locking itself that does it. As long as we maintain any identification with these bodies, perspective must be dynamic. That's what I'm trying to say in this thread.
I don't think the answer is to go running back into The Drama - or some certain part of the drama. It's just a matter of remaining engaged. Even though nothing NEEDS to move, that's not a reason not to. Do it for kicks and shallow enjoyment. That's why we cooked up the drama in the first place...to enjoy the stimulation, the stories. Doesn't mean we need to get fully lost in it again, identifying, in a condition of fraught anxiety, with the spills and chills.
Perspective always has infinite options to enjoy. Freezing into one of them makes your body stop. That includes the perspective of bedrock truth; the perspective that's most beautiful, and most satisfying, and the exact one you've been working all these years to inhabit. Rejoice in its availability (and carefully maintain your ability to shift perspective there), but do stuff TOO. Just for kicks. You don't need to mythologize it. Just enjoy.
You know the optical illusion which can be viewed as convex or as concave, but never both at once? I'ts like that. Many sages refer to "The Dance" between worldly world and silence. They urge us to join the drama with relish (wearing it very, very lightly), always remaining one shift of perspective away from Silence.
One warning, though: if you don't keep up practices, it's easy to get quite deeply absorbed back into Drama without ever noticing. You figure the deeper perspective remains available, but as you lose touch with it, it becomes a cartoonish placeholder, a symbol. Not the actual perspective itself. So don't freeze the OTHER WAY, either. If you lock perspective 100% back on Drama, you will soon forget you're enjoying a movie. And I can report that you will find yourself in extremely disturbing movies as your inner awareness tries to snap you back into perspective. So I'd suggest you do keep practicing....regularly, even if not daily. Manage and maintain your ability to do this rather simple perceptual shift. Don't assume it's permanently available.
(The perspective IS permanently available, in the larger sense, of course; any perspective is available in any moment....but it can be surprisingly frustrating to re-inhabit a once-familiar perspective once you lose touch with it...which, obviously, explains the entire human condition).
If any of that speaks to you, the following is a very good book on that "Dance"....the precise, rather technical and learnable faculty of shifting perspective between "being" and "doing": https://www.amazon.com/Shift-into-F...dp/162203350
Moderator note: The book link does not work. Is this the correct book?
Yes, thank you! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 28 2016 2:48:27 PM |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2016 : 11:37:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
One warning, though: if you don't keep up practices, it's easy to get quite deeply absorbed back into Drama without ever noticing. You figure the deeper perspective remains available, but as you lose touch with it, it becomes a cartoonish placeholder, a symbol. Not the actual perspective itself. So don't freeze the OTHER WAY, either. If you lock perspective 100% back on Drama, you will soon forget you're enjoying a movie. And I can report that you will find yourself in extremely disturbing movies as your inner awareness tries to snap you back into perspective. So I'd suggest you do keep practicing....regularly, even if not daily. Manage and maintain your ability to do this rather simple perceptual shift. Don't assume it's permanently available.
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Frozen Perspective: Depression And Spirituality
